Post by: Fullabull on September 22, 2011, 04:11:33 PM
My father is now 71 and I have to plan out our hunts according to his age and being a flat lander. I find easier trails that we can walk and hunt from. He cannot do hard hills due to his knees but we go in about a mile or so on the trail that then hunt 100 to 200 yards off of that. We have had decent opportunity every year with bulls answering to our location calls from the trail, and then we try and work them. He has enjoyed the sound of having a bull close and screaming or chuckling. He has had a couple of opportunities but due to lack of experience has not been able to score yet. My goal has been to have him take an elk before he is not able to hunt any longer.
We have been talking about how the WDFW has been screwing the archery hunters here in WA to make things fair between the archer and modern hunters. As the WDFW has been pulling back the day’s archery hunters have to hunt during any type of rut, our opportunities have dwindled to the point where these last two years we have had little to no opportunity at an elk and my father has now decided not to hunt here anymore. He is from CA. and pays our outrageous out of state fees to hunt here with his son (me). I would gladly hunt out of WA if I could afford it but I have one child in Collage and the next one starting next year so that is out of the question.
I am extremely frustrated with all the talk about how the WDFW is trying to make things fair for the modern hunters who according to WDFW take fewer branch antler bulls per hunter then archery hunters.
I do not understand how archery hunters have such an advantage over modern or ML hunters when they are the only ones who get to hunt the most intense part of the elk rut season. Archery hunters get to hunt the pre-rut and maybe the beginning rut for the most part. Even permit archery hunts do not hunt the prime rut. But both modern and ML do!!!
So let me make a list of fair:
1. Archery Hunters do not hunt prime rut
Modern and ML permit hunts are during prime rut periods
2. Archery hunters have to work hard for any harvest they take (I have never seen an archery road hunter)
To many modern hunters road hunt and can shoot how far??? I saw a tree stand in the Lewis river unit that looks like a house and looks over a shooting range of about 400 to 500 yards.
3. Archery hunters have closed roads and gates every year and like this year much of the timber land was shut down due to fire danger.
What closed gates do modern hunters have to deal with?
4. WA is the only state with any number of elk that does not allow archery hunting into late September
Please, modern and ml hunters. I am not putting down anything about your seasons or method of hunting. Many of you more successful hunters have to work just as hard as archery hunters and you have less time to do it.
All I am trying to say is that WDFW needs to stop taking away opportunity from the archery hunters because some modern lobbyist says things are "not fair".
Not sure where they grew up but I was always told life is not fair. I always tell my kids, life owes you no more than what you put into it. The harder you work the greater your reward! If archery hunters have to work extremely hard to get within 40 yards of an animal, then they should be provided the best opportunity to do so. There is a big difference between 40 and 400 yard shots, having to hike in miles behind closed gates and off roads to hunt and drive around looking for elk crossing the road.
Let’s talk more about fair…
In 2011: Bull elk special permit hunts
* There were 33 special permit hunts for modern hunters during prime rut periods ranging from Sept. 19 though Oct. 10. (yes, these are prime rut periods)
* There were 26 special permit hunts for ML hunters during prime rut periods during Oct. 1 though Oct. 14.
* There is one special permit hunt for archery that gets to hunt until Sept. 23.
I really would like to know who has been feeding the WDFW information that archery hunters take more branch bulls???
2010 results: Don’t have earlier regs to go by but 2010 seems to show that modern hunters do much better the archery hunters when it comes to killing bulls!!!
2010 Special Permit Hunts:
Modern Hunters: Permits Issued: 355
Bulls taken 4 point or better: 139
Success rate 39%
Archery Hunters: Permits Issued: 519
Bulls taken 4 point or better: 62
Success rate 12%
2010 General Season Results:
Modern Hunters: 46,446
Bulls taken 4 point or better: 1398
Success rate 3%
Archery Hunters: 18,783
Bulls taken 4 point or better: 510
Success rate 2.7%
So who is saying archery hunters shoot more branch bulls then modern hunters???
This has really gotten out of hand with what is fair (PC) for everyone. I have lost my best hunting partner in the field because some folks feel they should not have to work as hard as archery hunters in order to shoot a nice bull. WDFW, STOP THIS PC MENTALITY AND LET THE FOLKS WILLING TO PUT IN THE HARD WORK REEP THE REWARDS OF THEIR EFFORTS!!! :bash:
OK, I'm done...sorry for the long winded rant...I feel better now ;)
Post by: Jellymon on September 22, 2011, 04:24:31 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on September 22, 2011, 04:28:10 PM
Post by: deerslyr on September 22, 2011, 04:33:42 PM
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
First, if you think rifle season is so much better, feel free to switch from archery to modern firearm.
Second, with your numbers of 4 point or better bulls taken by modern firearm and archery, you need to take into account the number of hunters, and the percentage of "mature" bulls killed by each user group. NOT the total number of bulls killed. That's not a fair comparison and that's not the way the WDFW calculates it.
Post by: Hunterman on September 22, 2011, 04:36:29 PM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: Jellymon on September 22, 2011, 04:42:58 PM
Just a couple of comments.
First, if you think rifle season is so much better, feel free to switch from archery to modern firearm.
Second, with your numbers of 4 point or better bulls taken by modern firearm and archery, you need to take into account the number of hunters, and the percentage of "mature" bulls killed by each user group. NOT the total number of bulls killed. That's not a fair comparison and that's not the way the WDFW calculates it.
He isnt saying rifle season is better, he is saying that there is no reason why wdfw should be shortening archery elk season when it has the lowest success rate. And to all of the modern guys complaining about archery taking lots of mature bulls, feel free to pick up a bow.
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 04:46:45 PM
Quote
He isnt saying rifle season is better, he is saying that there is no reason why wdfw should be shortening archery elk season when it has the lowest success rate.
They have to limit harvest somehow. With a longer archery season, there's no doubt more elk would be killed. And again, if someone feels another user group has a better season, then switch and hunt that season. That is what I'm most likely going to do next year- switch from rifle to archery.
Post by: Fullabull on September 22, 2011, 04:57:29 PM
I know they combine the numbers to come up with more "fair" distribution. What I am also saying is why does it need to be fair? Archery hunters (over all) work much harder for their elk then modern hunters do. This is not about controlling the number of animals taken, it is about controlling who takes them. You can take the numbers or the 4 point bulls out and I believe the numbers get worse. There is something very wrong with what the WDFW is doing here.
If I was hunting by myself or with someone who can still hike into places no one is, I'm sure I would not have much problem harvesting and elk. But, I am still hunting with my father for as long as I can and being 71, the more the WDFW takes away from the archer, the more difficult it gets to be successful. In my fathers case, he has had enough with paying the out of state fees for the opportunity he is now getting (can't blame him).
Post by: MAVsled on September 22, 2011, 05:00:21 PM
I recall the days of elk hunting WA state prior to the current regulations; any method, everyone in the same season, anywhere in the state. Pure craziness in the late 70's-late 80's, not to mention safety risks. It wasn't nearly as good as my last 10 seasons, or for me '68-'73 was fantastic. but I do miss my father and the past two week elk seasons of years gone by.
My dad lost interest and quit hunting due to age and regulations of less time and spike only with long waits on modern permit draws.
With the increase in users and demands on the elk herds, something needs to be done. Tough to make everyone happy And with the increase in efficiency and technology advancement of equipment, archery & muzzle are far more efficient today than when the separate seasonal methods were established. and now add the tribal hunting issue to the mix.
At least you get a choice to decide. Aside from a multi elk season permit, you must live with your decision on method/weapon of your choice. with the regulations, at least you have information in advance to make the choice.
and 8 years later...welcome to WA State and its bureaucracy.
Post by: hucklebeary on September 22, 2011, 05:08:20 PM
Post by: plugger on September 22, 2011, 05:13:02 PM
Post by: remington300mag on September 22, 2011, 05:18:17 PM
SO once again....... :cryriver:
Post by: gasman on September 22, 2011, 05:32:40 PM
You will never see it get better.....Never :bash: :bash:
first, After hearing all the reports from the archery hunters, sounds to me there were plenty of bulls screaming at them, most said they were on elk every day. Second your hunting before or at least the beginning of the tribal season. Go look and see how many legal bulls are running around in units like the dickey or hoko after two months of that. Third, my small hunting camp have killed are share of bulls over the years and not one of them was road hunting.Gate are your friend. As far as special permitts go,if you look at how many apps there are for riffle tags and the amount of people applying for each one I don't think the odds of drawing one would be any different no matter what your method of choice is.
I think you ae a little backwards......most reports from this years archery season are bad. Very few unters were in to bulls. I was in to a good number of bulls but I am the only person I ran in to that was. And yes the elk were screaming in many areas. Screaming at night, but not durring hunting hours :bash:
Post by: royalbull on September 22, 2011, 05:45:38 PM
Post by: plugger on September 22, 2011, 05:56:23 PM
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 22, 2011, 06:10:50 PM
I don't think I would whine too much if I were still archery hunting, I have always believed they have had the best opportunity to be successful if they choose to put their time in, ML have always been the ones getting screwed, rifle hunters if they get drawn for special permits have a greater chance of all user groups at being successful but what are the chances of being drawn, if I am not drawn my hunting season is basically winter camping which I still enjoy very much, I hope they remove the early hunt for elk and deer in unit 346 in the near future that will give you something to whine about
:yeah:
I am actually making the move to archery next year no matter what the changes are.
I don't know where you get this pre-rut stuff. There is absolutely NO rut going on during rifle season. I have been hunting Washington elk modern season for 15 years now and in all that time I have never......not even once....had the opportunity to call in a bull or hear one bugle, and not because there haven't been elk in my area. The years I have been successful, it was spot and stalk. I might be mistaken but no one I know or have ever hunter with during modern season has ever been able to call in a bull.
Whoever said that about some modern hunters not getting out of their truck is probably mostly right, but archery does have a much stronger opportunity quotient......... :twocents:
Post by: shorthair15 on September 22, 2011, 06:17:42 PM
Post by: lokidog on September 22, 2011, 06:55:23 PM
I don't think I would whine too much if I were still archery hunting, I have always believed they have had the best opportunity to be successful if they choose to put their time in, ML have always been the ones getting screwed, rifle hunters if they get drawn for special permits have a greater chance of all user groups at being successful but what are the chances of being drawn, if I am not drawn my hunting season is basically winter camping which I still enjoy very much, I hope they remove the early hunt for elk and deer in unit 346 in the near future that will give you something to whine about
:yeah:
I am actually making the move to archery next year no matter what the changes are.
I don't know where you get this pre-rut stuff. There is absolutely NO rut going on during rifle season. I have been hunting Washington elk modern season for 15 years now and in all that time I have never......not even once....had the opportunity to call in a bull or hear one bugle, and not because there haven't been elk in my area. The years I have been successful, it was spot and stalk. I might be mistaken but no one I know or have ever hunter with during modern season has ever been able to call in a bull.
Whoever said that about some modern hunters not getting out of their truck is probably mostly right, but archery does have a much stronger opportunity quotient......... :twocents:
I think he was talking about the special permit modern hunts, not the general season.
We heard elk and had them come in but could not close the deal. I wouldn't mind seeing the archery season a week later because of access issues/fire danger and possibly cooler temps for better meat care.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on September 22, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
:cryriver: If you really want to see who is getting screwed how about you check out the ML hunts over here on the East Side....... We have lost all but 7 days for mule deer (at the end of sept.).....and don't even get me started on elk.....took away all late season hunts.....split the best unit up and gave us the worse side.....ohhh and a whole 7 days for a spike!
SO once again....... :cryriver:
Can't the ML purchase a MF tag instead of a ML tag? Same for us archers if the seasons are so much better? :dunno: I will say that I am tired of them screwing with the seasons. I do believe there are some positives to the whole user group concept but I think the negatives is that it results in a lot of in-fighting amongst hunters....and of course someone gets the short end of the stick....usually ML or Archery.
Post by: bigpaw 77 on September 22, 2011, 07:13:10 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on September 22, 2011, 08:14:12 PM
I can understand your frustration. But muzzleoader guys get one weekend and 5 days to hunt elk. And we are limited to a few units. I can't even hunt in the blues where I spend my 1 week deer season and a week bear hunting. Those units are open for archery. For much longer than 1 week. Sorry but I have a hard time feeling sorry for archery hunters that get to hunt where I can not.
Can't you hunt there with a ML if you purchase the MF tag instead of the ML tag? Same concept for Bowhunters who want to hunt during the days of the MF season?
Post by: bigpaw 77 on September 22, 2011, 10:08:59 PM
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 10:10:22 PM
Post by: remington300mag on September 22, 2011, 10:18:17 PM
The other option to what we have now is to go to all elk hunting by draw only. Actually that is what I would like to see.:yeah: sad to say it has come to it but I agree.....Even if it is an every other year type deal.....I would gladly wait a year to only have half the pressure!!
Post by: jager on September 22, 2011, 10:24:39 PM
The other option to what we have now is to go to all elk hunting by draw only. Actually that is what I would like to see.
Do you not think that the "regulations" should be different in regards to east/west WA. Maybe particular areas?
I guess I have a hard time with draw only. I hunt any elk unit(s) in NE WA.
Never hunted the west side but I sounds like there are plenty of guys out at any given time....obviously..that's where the population "base" is
I'd be pretty bummed if I couldn't hunt elk every year with my bow...although I put in for the modern draw this year...and got drawn!
I guarantee these units (NE) are not hit too hard from a success standpoint :)
I do think the muzzy guys get hosed...I am on the edge of buying a muzzleloader right now but I just don't think I'd get enough use out of it..
I much prefer to hunt archery because of the crowds...but WDFW caters to the majority (modern)
Post by: dblungshot on September 22, 2011, 11:07:01 PM
Using a long-bow adds another dimension. Most dedicated archery guys feel that this is their calling...using another weapon is not their conviction or a choice. It's a life dedicated to fair chase and being one with your arrow. Unless you archery hunt I don't believe that you have a voice or can understand our limited window to succeed. I've hunted MF for deer after archery hunting for elk and I felt like a cheater. To be able to shoot x yards felt to easy. I ended up shooting a buck on the run @ 150 yards that could of never been done with a bow.
I'm fine with WDFW making money. Just about every government agency is running their books backwards so they need too. I propose that they make 8-10 GMU's special permit with extended hunting seasons that run to the end of September. This proposal can be treated like the any weapon draw (pre-season and can be added on your badge for an option)
I believe the WDFW needs to extend archery hunter opportunity. I also believe that archery hunters are more successful given the weapon not because of the season dates (which helps sometimes) but because they are more in-tune with the game they are pursuing and are better hunters. :chuckle:
Just like MF & ML the elk get pressured and can scoot out of areas. Getting the extra time to re-locate these timber ghosts can take more time than the season may allow. Not to mention weather (this can add another tweak with time). I love archery hunting and won't quit. I enjoy other archery hunters that I meet on the trail and commonly see great respect for people, equipment, and hunter ethics. I've yet to find a sour archery guy (not that I won't).
For a side note: I've scored every year for the last 8 years except last year for my childs birth. I'm not whining but I feel it's best for the WDFW to correct their timelines for better opportunity and make some money while doing it. Very few people harvested animals in the area I was in and deeply shared the same concern with the timeline. I heard two buggles which occured the last day and that was it. Elk where there. No doubt. Just not ready. Eastside.
Any petitions or interest groups that feel to pursue WDFW feel free to contact me for support. For all of you who shoot MF or smoke poles your method is not wrong, your timing is, WDFW is the one who makes this choice and needs to correct it. Keep shooting your guns....please.
Post by: remington300mag on September 22, 2011, 11:46:08 PM
You might not have found a sour archery guy......but have you found any extremely arrogant ones??? I believe we all just have!!!
"Unless you archery hunt I don't believe that you have a voice" Are you serious??? You really are a pompous ass aren't you?!?!
Maybe if you are so mighty with stick and string.....your season should get cut down to 1 day......I mean you are sooooo in-tune..... You are what I like to call a Self Appointed Elitist!!
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 11:53:04 PM
Quote
For a side note: I've scored every year for the last 8 years except last year for my childs birth. I'm not whining but I feel it's best for the WDFW to correct their timelines for better opportunity
100% success rate- now THAT is why I will be switching to archery elk hunting next year. :tup:
The bulls bugle constantly so you know exactly where they are. It's so easy you can hardly call it hunting. It's more like shooting fish in a barrel. The WDFW needs to provide better opportunity? Why? You're killing elk every year with the seasons as they are now. Why change a good thing?
Post by: Miles on September 22, 2011, 11:53:59 PM
Oh, and you really don't need all this:
...........al;kdjflaksdj.........alk;jdflkaj; ??? ??? ???la;jdfklajsdl.......:LKJDLKFJDL:!!!!! jadl;kjfa;sldk>>>>>....... ??? ??? ??;LKJSDfl;kajsd.....
to get your point across.
Three periods indicate a pause, other than that one question mark or period will suffice.
Post by: remington300mag on September 23, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
Rem, What's gotten in to you lately? Every time I look at a thread with your posts, you are all pissed off and telling people how wrong they are.The more over punctuation I do, the more it makes it seem like I mean business! :chuckle: As for what is up with me, I am not pissed off at all, just stating my opinion. Figure if everyone else is going to speak their mind, why not me? Also, it seems to me like I have done more pissing others off, rather than being pissed off myself.....
Oh, and you really don't need all this:
...........al;kdjflaksdj.........alk;jdflkaj; ??? ??? ???la;jdfklajsdl.......:LKJDLKFJDL:!!!!! jadl;kjfa;sldk>>>>>....... ??? ??? ??;LKJSDfl;kajsd.....
to get your point across.
Three periods indicate a pause, other than that one question mark or period will suffice.
Besides, can you honestly read that guys post and not want to :spank_butt:
Post by: Miles on September 23, 2011, 12:16:54 AM
It's too much like work, and unless it's a hunting story it's most likely bitching and moaning about something that "isn't fair".
Post by: Killercolin on September 23, 2011, 07:28:40 AM
ML & MF guys don't appreciate what it takes to get consistantly 40 yrds or less to an animal or have an animal in your site but just can't get close enough with a bow.
We dont. Just in the last 2 seasons my group of 5 (including me) have taken 7 elk and not a 1 was over 40 yrds. And how about having an animal in your sights and you pop a cap and nothing happens? Thats EXTREMELY frustrating.
This is going to be my 3rd year hunting, so Im pretty new to hunting, and I even understand that anyone can hunt what ever weapon style they want. I read these forum and learn a lot from all you veteran hunters. I really love the stories and the pictures, yet every once in a while you come across a post that kinda insulting. But that is your right to say what ever you would like and I respect that. But I say you have a problem with something do something. If youre so unhappy with archery's seasons, then write the WDFW and give your input, or switch seasons. Just my :twocents:
Post by: Glockster on September 23, 2011, 07:33:10 AM
Those 'purists' of the archery community who proposed and lobbied for "choose your weapon" regs back in the 80's brought you the shorter seasons, limited units to hunt and severely restricted archery opportunity we have today.
Back when one could buy a tag for and hunt any weapon type, you had archery seasons that spanned over 2 months total, I can't recall a unit that was closed to archery (early and late hunts) and does, cows, bulls bucks big and small all were legal. And we had plenty of animals to hunt back then and even more hunters. Somehow we managed just fine without resource allocation.
All it did was pit hunters against eachother and reduce all of our opportunity to hunt as we choose.
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Welcome to resource allocation. :(
All it did was pit hunters against eachother and reduce all of our opportunity to hunt as we choose.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on September 23, 2011, 08:07:11 AM
As a Traditional Archer by choice, I feel that I have imposed a restriction on myself that prevents me from having a 100% success rate.
Actually it is more like 15%, but I do get at least one opportunity every year, I just don't "make the connection".
I do question my choice of weapon sometimes, because I KNOW I could have made shots I have passed on if I was able to reach 5-10 yards further.
As much as I would like to hunt later in September, or even the first week of October, I choose my weapon more for the weapons sake than for the season.
I feel sorry for the ML guys, they do seem to get the short end of the deal, but IMHO unless they are using a side-lock, they basically are using a rifle, and with the ability to hunt the first week of Oct, limited open GMU's and a one week season is their only legitimate complaint.
When it comes to MF hunters, well, with the leaves down in November (increased visibility) and the ability to shoot 100+ yards...
I think the hardest thing about their season is fear of leaving the truck unattended due to *censored*s that might break in while they are hunting, or not being able to find a parking space.
or they might miss the game (football)
:chuckle: (just a joke, don't get all angry)
When I am hunting, I park at a gate and walk in, averaging 10-15 miles a day.
I try to hunt from daylight until dark, and walk in, and out in the dark.
This year I hunted in one of those "crowded" units, yet the only other hunters I saw in the woods were less than a mile from the gate, and gone when I arrived at my truck at dark.
They had seen nothing, nor had heard nothing, all season long.
Yet I had heard at least 3 bulls bugle every day I had hunted, and had 3 opportunities myself, and each of the 3 other guys I had hunted with had had an Elk within 40 yards themselves, making 6 chances to pack out an Elk in 5 days of hunting.
As much as I would like to complain about how the WDFW is "screwing me over", I make my own luck, and the number of branched bulls I see every year keeps increasing.
I would like to credit myself, believing I am a better hunter, but I feel the real credit actually has to go to someone other than myself.
I am an overweight, 47 y/o smoker who spends most of his time just walking logging roads (behind gates), I used to hunt the whole season, from before deer opened until after Elk season (early)
Now I am lucky to get out for a week, yet I still manage to find Elk, and get them within 40 yards.
I would love to take credit for that, but honestly feel it is the lack of effort by the majority of hunters, and increased restrictions by the WDFW that has influenced my opportunity.
Life is not fair, get used to it.
you get out of it, what you put into it, and if you want an easy hunt, well there are options.
or I guess you can complain about it, if that makes you feel better.. :dunno:
Post by: sirmissalot on September 23, 2011, 08:13:13 AM
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 08:17:42 AM
Post by: bobcat on September 23, 2011, 08:25:05 AM
I don't believe for one second that it's all about "dividing and conquering".
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 08:31:40 AM
I don't believe for one second that it's all about "dividing and conquering".
After having gone to several 3 year season setting processes, the anti-hound agenda and watching the wolf agenda, I don't share your optomisim. :dunno:
Post by: seth30 on September 23, 2011, 08:33:19 AM
It's either "choose your weapon" or draw only. There has to be some limit on the number of hunters, and the number of animals harvested each year. I don't have a problem with our seasons. Although I would prefer a system more like Oregon's with more draw only seasons and less general seasons open to anybody and everybody.I disagree with not letting everyone hunt. We have serveral military bases in this state, and most of us spend 2-4 years in one area and move on. A point system is unfair to our servicemen and women stationed in WA. How can they compete? I like the seperation between weapons due to less crowding in the woods though.
I don't believe for one second that it's all about "dividing and conquering".
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 08:39:24 AM
I like the seperation between weapons due to less crowding in the woods though.
Your kidding right? That is the BIGGEST complaint, even more so that the shortening of the seasons, is the over crowding from cramming everyone into fewer and fewer GMUs. :o
Post by: seth30 on September 23, 2011, 08:44:30 AM
Nope I hunt year round, (mostly yotes) and dont see anybody till modern season and then its a zoo. I couldnt imagine dealing with that every time I go out. Sorry just my opionion.I like the seperation between weapons due to less crowding in the woods though.
Your kidding right? That is the BIGGEST complaint, even more so that the shortening of the seasons, is the over crowding from cramming everyone into fewer and fewer GMUs. :o
Post by: bobcat on September 23, 2011, 08:50:03 AM
I don't believe for one second that it's all about "dividing and conquering".
After having gone to several 3 year season setting processes, the anti-hound agenda and watching the wolf agenda, I don't share your optomisim. :dunno:
I'm not sure I'd call it "optimism" on my part. I'd just like to know who you think is doing the "dividing and the conquering" and what purpose does it serve? The reason for the "choose your weapon" is to reduce crowding in the woods. It used to be that a person could hunt all three seasons with the appropriate weapon. It got to be too crowded so they then made it so a person had to pick just one season to hunt each year. Like I said- it's either what we have, or they can go to no more general seasons/over-the-counter tags, and make all deer and elk hunting by draw only.
Post by: Fullabull on September 23, 2011, 08:52:00 AM
I did not say I want to switch hunting meathods.
Facts are facts and they show archery is the only method that does not hunt the prime runt general or permit!
My rant was at WDFW for being PC with the modern hunters but that's WA for you :bash:
Don't bring up about the number of MF hunters and the limited number of permits, like you are telling me. It's your choice, and you still take more big bulls than archery hunters during your "permit hunts" while hunting the prime rut.
I'm just pissed because my father will not be hunting with me any longer. I will be fine hunting by myself and will have plenty of opportunity because I can now get out and go where the elk are. But I'm still bummed...
You MF hunters on this forum I'm sure are amongst the group who work hard for your elk, that is why you are on this forum, because you love the sport and are willing to put out the effort.
What the WDFW is doing has nothing to do with how they manage the herds and everything to do with being PC and knowing where 70% of their money comes from. Trust me, if there were more archery hunters than MF hunters, things would be much different!
Sorry to ruffle any feathers here, I really enjoy this forum and the great folks who reside here. We all learn a lot from eachother and sharing stories and tactics helps make the year go by a little faster so we can all get back out there and do what we love....Hunt!
Post by: CAMPMEAT on September 23, 2011, 09:04:44 AM
I've lived in this state for 58 years and it's horrible for hunting. :twocents:
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 10:02:49 AM
I don't believe for one second that it's all about "dividing and conquering".
After having gone to several 3 year season setting processes, the anti-hound agenda and watching the wolf agenda, I don't share your optomisim. :dunno:
I'm not sure I'd call it "optimism" on my part. I'd just like to know who you think is doing the "dividing and the conquering" and what purpose does it serve? The reason for the "choose your weapon" is to reduce crowding in the woods. It used to be that a person could hunt all three seasons with the appropriate weapon. It got to be too crowded so they then made it so a person had to pick just one season to hunt each year. Like I said- it's either what we have, or they can go to no more general seasons/over-the-counter tags, and make all deer and elk hunting by draw only.
Honestly, I am truely starting to believe the WDFW's mission is to end all Sport Hunting, I am starting to believe this in my heart. I believe they can't wait for the wolf to take over the management of ungulates in this state. Explain this to me though, how did WA used to have much higher overall hunter numbers and a much better hunting experience than they do today? Hunter numbers are declining yet over crowding is going up. If they open the damn state up you'd see pressure on individual herds disperse, hunter's overall experience and enjoyment would go up.
Post by: bobcat on September 23, 2011, 10:14:25 AM
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 10:22:21 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on September 23, 2011, 10:29:50 AM
I park at gates and walk in, after a couple miles I am alone. :dunno:
in my experience, the only crowding I see is on, or near open roads, but that is in the unit where I hunt, your area might be different,
And a common complaint I have actually been hearing lately is that there is not enough hunters out there "pushing them around" making it difficult to get on the Elk.
Actually heard this from a guy that hunted Manastash, and a guy I ran into this year in SW Washington while I was happy to be hunting undisturbed Elk (well, until I disturbed them)
Post by: Glockster on September 23, 2011, 10:50:29 AM
That's been the real damage with the whole Choose Your Weapon. It has pitted each user group against each other and has us fighting each other for time in the woods and open GMUs. One of the few states in the US that has not expand archery and Muzzy seasons. If you look at most of the states out there, all this divide and conquer is not going on. Pretty sad state of affairs in this State and one of the main reasons I gave up hunting big game here. :twocents:
AMEN brotha Machias!. ~Something to think about when some of you guys jump on the "quality" hunt bandwagon of restricted access, permit draws, special treatment & antler point restrictions.....all WDFW managment done in the name of "quality" in the past two decades has basically lead to the nickel and dime'd to death p#@#$ poor big game seasons we now "enjoy".
Post by: bobcat on September 23, 2011, 10:54:31 AM
Post by: colockumelk on September 23, 2011, 11:47:13 AM
Starting in 2015 the WDFW will finally realize that true spike doesn't work. So they make 328 and 329 permit only. 10-15% of these guys quite outright. The other 3,000 or so disperse. Most probably go to the manastash. So now gmu's 340 and 342 are slammed with more hunters. Hunter density goes up and hunting quality and animal escapememt goes down. Eventually these two units goes to permit only as well. 10-15% of these guys quit. The rest disperse to 336, 360, 352 and 346. 346 and 336 do okay because they ate so rugged and have a lot of roadless areas. So while half of the 336 and 346 is packed the other half is not. 352 and 360 get really slammed. Eventually they go permit only. Another 10-15% quit. At this point the WDFW realizes its futile to keep the Yakima and Colockum gmu s otc. So it goes permit only.
Some disperse and hunt the west side. Most probably get discouraged and fail. They then only apply for permits and hunt only when drawn. Some move and hunt the Blues. The blues gets slammed. Same thing happens and it to becomes permit only.
West side remains OTC and East side goes permit only. The good news is that the east side will give out about 10x more permits for bulls as it does now. (Cow permits probably only slightly increase.) Quality of hunting goes way up. But.... The bad news is you only probably hunt every 2 or 3 years.
I think in the end our big game hunting would mirror Oregon. Hopefully the WDFW would at least leave the wilderness areas OTC. Hopefully none of the above happens. But the course I have seen our hunting take permit only is the only destination I see is ending up.
Post by: seth30 on September 23, 2011, 11:50:29 AM
What's the other option to the "piss poor big game seasons" we now have? What, unlimited numbers of tags with no restriction on where a person can hunt, or when? Why bother having seasons or tags at all then? Let's just have a year around season! Sounds good to me!:yeah: For yotes and cougars I agree
Post by: O_mykiss on September 23, 2011, 11:57:27 AM
WDFW has to manage the people as much or more than it does the wildlife. As long as the relative number of hunter days per area etc. stays the same, deal with it. Hunter access is a much bigger issue than who got their feelings hurt because they lost a day here or there.
Let's not bicker about the color of the drapes when the house is on fire.
Post by: Glockster on September 23, 2011, 01:03:22 PM
A another look into the 2024 season Yakima elk herd crystal ball:
~ The Oak Creek wolf pack, the Bumping Lake pack, and Chinook wolf packs number approx 36 animals each and kill all year long. The new Goat Rocks Pack starts working over the other side of the lake.
~ The indian hunters expand their seasons and kill modeled after the forgone opportunity clause of the fish treaties. The newly federally recognized Duwamish tribe claims "usual and accustomed hunting grounds" claims to the area joining the Yakimas, the Muckleshoots, the Suquamish, Tulalips, and the Nooksacks. All 6 tribes have different regulations, seasons, and enforcement jurisdictions. Tensions are high.
~ WDFW / Dept of recreation/Dept of State parks/ Dept of Ecology notes that elk permit draw applications are now down 32% over last year and raise the app cost to $10 and tag cost to $158 to cover the shortfall.
Post by: bobcat on September 23, 2011, 01:15:47 PM
Quote
elk permit draw applications are now down 32% over last year and raise the app cost to $10
The cost for 2012 is more than that:
Quote
Special Hunt Permit Application - Quality $13.20
Post by: Machias on September 23, 2011, 01:22:37 PM
Post by: Glockster on September 23, 2011, 02:02:39 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on September 23, 2011, 02:17:13 PM
I think it's because of all the gated roads on timber company lands, and public lands. And, land that is totally off limits to hunting now, that used to be open. There is a lot less area for people to spread out in now than there was back in the 70's and up into the 80's. I remember when I was in high school, there were very few gates on logging roads. You could pretty much drive anywhere you wanted. I don't necessarily think this is the WDFW's fault. Although with all the extra money they made last year off our special permit fees, they promised an increase in public access to private lands for hunting. But I haven't seen that yet. Have you?
No access to land that I see. Plus now we have to buy a Discovery Pass to access certain lands. Well' never win !!