Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Upland Birds => Topic started by: Sportfury on October 03, 2011, 11:49:04 PM
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Due to time constraints we end up going out to the pheasant release sites on the West side. With the new rules this year I went and bought some Winchester steel. I took my son out for the youth hunt and we should have been done hunting within the first ten minutes. Out of five birds that we put up he only ended up getting one. At first I thought it was him, but I really started watching and seeing where his wads went. On one bird the wad was in the birds tail feathers and it flew off like nothing happened. I saw another youth dust a bird with a 12 gauge. From where I was standing it was a good hit with feathers flying off, but again the bird kept flying. The bird landed in front of my son and the dog. The dog was on it and the bird ran and then flushed wild. My son told me he could see blood on the back of the birds head.
This weekend I went with my dad and son and we had a rooster fly over about 35 to 40 feet off the ground. I watched my dad bounce two wads off the birds belly and he continued flying out of sight. Just amazing. My dad who also had been during the senior hunt found birds in the field that had been shot and not found and were semi-alive. The birds were in such bad shape he wouldn't even take them home.
I guess it is time to spend some real money and pony up for the good stuff. Hevi-Shot is coming out with Hevi-Metal and I have heard some good things about it. I talked with a prostaffer at Cabelas and he told me it was so good that he would consider taking his beloved 20 gauge back out in the duck fields. My dad also called down to Oregon and talked with the company. One of their prostaffers reported back that with steel shot that they could shoot a box of 25 and get maybe 12 ducks. With the new Hevi-Metal they are getting 19 to 20 ducks a box. I checked prices and it is running around $199.99 for a case of 20 gauge #4's (not sure of the price for 12's). With all the new regulations on non-toxic shot and there being so many of us hunters we should see if we could put together a group buy and get a better price on ammunition. Anyone interested?
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I have been shooting heavy-steel for a couple years. If it is new, maybe they reformulated. Anyway, they are good shells and do perform much better than standard steel and they are more acceptably priced for volume shooting. So, depending on how much you shoot, it may be worth it to pony up for heavishot. It is lethal as hell and will greatly extend your range. Another bonus, I have never had a pellet of heavishot retained in the bird, they pass clean through. No more biting into a missed pellet. Lastly, I do duck hunt over decoys with a 20ga using hevishot 3", works great. Good luck.
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I shoot #5 custom tungsten reloads out of an 1880's damascus 16ga hammer gun. Steel does suck. There are a lot of alternatives out there besides steel that work much better. Itx, nice shot, tungsten, hevi shot, etc. etc. I rarely shoot more than a few shells to get a couple bird limit at a release site. At that rate, it is worth it to pony up for a box. Small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
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Pheasants on release sites are wimps and are generally easy to knock down. I can't imagine regular steel shot not being effective if you limit your shots to about 35 yards. If you're not knocking them down then I'd blame it on the shooter, not the shells.
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Pheasants on release sites are wimps and are generally easy to knock down. I can't imagine regular steel shot not being effective if you limit your shots to about 35 yards. If you're not knocking them down then I'd blame it on the shooter, not the shells.
I have to agree with Bobcat especially since your talking about wads hitting the bird. The wad is traveling much slower than the shot once it leaves the barrel. Remember steel shot muzzle velocity is faster than lead, but slows quicker. I used #6 steel 2 3/4" on the release site for years with great success. Release site birds are wimpy and easy to nock down. A suggestion is to find a place and throw some clays (most ranges do not allow steel) and see how well you do. Lots of people bad mouth steel, but for the most part the shooter could use a little more practice with it.
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After about 5 yards the wad is nowhere near the shot string. If the wads are hitting the birds the shooter over lead and the shot string went in front of the target. Yep, steel sucks but any brand of steel #2 will put pheasants down, dead right there, within reasonable ranges. I’d rather shoot 1 1/4oz of number 5 lead but 1 1/8oz of steel #2 does the job.
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SportFury .... It does suck when you take to long of shots ...and I do not believe you bounced wads of the rooster at 35 to 40 yards :chuckle: just because the wad leaves the shot before it goes that far ...I know we have more wounded birds do to steel shot because of all the sky busting that goes on .. I have tought myself to let birds decoy more and limit my shots to 30 yrds ...I use a 12 ga with 3" mags in #2 shot seems to work well for me ...good luck ! :tup:
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My current upland gun is a Remington® SPR220 (Baikal IZH-43) 20ga SxS. I can tell you after several hunts on Thurston County Pheasant Release Sites that I am doing just fine with steel shot. Specifically I use Federal® Prairie Storm® Flitestopper® Steel in #3, and 4 shot. I banged roosters out to 40yds with the steel #4's and they were dead before they hit the ground! These loads were specifically developed for pheasant hunting.
I've used Kent®, Remington®, and Winchester® steel in the past. For waterfowl the Kent®s and Federal® BlackCloud® performed well; they patterned way too tight for upland birds however. The other two have not performed well for me at all.
I'm sold on Federal® BlackCloud® steel for waterfowl, and Prairie Storm® steel for pheasants.
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So what would be the difference between Prairie Storm steel and Black Cloud? Besides the box that is.
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I have always done fine with the Remington Hypersonic Steel in no.4's. It seems to do the trick just fine.
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CP, BlackCloud® and Prairie Storm® both use standard steel and "Flitestopper®" steel in the Flitecontrol® wad. BlackCloud® offers many different shot sizes; BBB, BB, 2, 3, & 4. Prairie Storm® is only available in #3, & 4. BlackCloud® contains 60% Standard Steel and 40% Flitestopper® Steel. With Prairie Storm® the mix is 50% Steel & 50% Flitestopper® Steel. I don't know about 12 ga but in 20ga the BlackCloud® is 1350fps & Prairie Storm® is 1500fps. BC is a 1oz load; PS is a ⅞oz load.
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Steel works finebutdoes take some adjustment. I think this was a case of shooter error - no offense. Just remember that chokes are one tighter with steel in most cases.
BlackCloud is the waterfowl load and has a FPS of 1450 in 12g #2 shot 1 1/4 oz. 3". It is a 60/ 40 mix of standard steel and FS steel.
Prairie Storm is the upland load and has a FPS of 1500 in20g #4 shot 7/8 oz. 3". It is a 50/50 mix of standard and FS steel.
Hevi-Metal is a waterfowl load and has a FPS of 1350 in 20g #4 shot in 1oz. 3"
My group of hunting buddies used BlackCloud last year and LOVED it. Rarely a pellet left in the meat and little to no black residue.
Better luck next time and sounds like your dogs were working fine finding the birds anyway.
Just taking this off the boxes that I had nearby. I use all of these and find that the "premium" steel loads are worth it compared to standard.
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If you weren't seeing feathers come off of the birds then your son was missing them, sorry. I shoot steel shot for almost everything now, except quail and doves (unless we were hunting in a wildlife area where it was required). I like kent 4's for just about everything. You didn't mention what shot size your son was shooting but i don't see how he wouldn't be able to kill those whimpy westside pheasants with anything size 6 or larger. Hell I've killed wild roosters with steel 7's.
Also, i think you should pattern those shells in his gun, remember that steel patterns much tighter than lead. IC is a good choice for most cases.
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Cascade_fisher, You are so right, the premium loads are far better than the standard stuff!
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For years now we've used steel for all our upland hunting because we jump a lot of ducks while pheasant hunting, haven't had any problems. I use BC 4's and Kent 3's in my 20ga and my partner what ever is cheapest in his 12ga, Winchester Xpert, Rio, Estate and Fiocchi and have had no problems. I use the same cheap loads in my 12ga for waterfowl and they work fine but I shoot my ducks over decoys and keep them in the 20-30yrd range.
We're headed to SD for a couple weeks of Pheasant and Sharptail and all public land in SD is non-toxic for upland, I think we'll do just fine. I am going to try some ITX and Nice Shot 7/8oz hand loads in an old and very light 12ga(under 6#) there.
AWS
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GO SHOOT SOME CLAYS WITH THE STEEL! You wouldn't target shoot your deer rifle with 120 gr bullets all year and then go out and shoot 180's without resighting it in (I hope), same thing for the steel shot. Different velocity shells will shoot differently, practice with what you will hunt with. :twocents:
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if you can kill geese and mallards with steel but cant kill pheasants with it.....well maybe try aiming right at the birds :tup:...when they take off the biggest problem I see is people getting flustered and leading it too much, they make a lot of noise but aren't really going that fast (especially fatties on the release sites in my experience) ....that steel is fast, so if the bird is just getting up , a lot of times you can aim right at its head ...now if its outside of 40 yards and you are not shooting BB you might have a little problem.
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I started reloading steel with the help from some folks here and have great success with it on ducks and pheasant. I use Precision #4, #2 and BB for my loads. The 4 and 2 on both ducks(jump shooting) and pheasant. My hulls are Remington, primers are Federal, Steel powder by Alliant. I'm not advocating you to start reloading but just saying that steel can be very effective.
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Try some 3 inch 12 gauge number 4 steel, I dropped over fifty roosters with that load last year,
BTW I was using the cheap steel loads from Wal-Mart
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Just for the record Prairie Storm is lead.Here is the text from Federals website( don't use it on the release sites!)
"New Prairie Storm™ features the FLITECONTROL® wad and FLITESTOPPER® (FS) lead. It uses the same technology that's proven outstanding on waterfowl-but is specially designed for the needs of pheasant hunters. Never before have loads produced such full, consistent patterns. A mix of Premium® copper-plated lead (70%) and nickel-plated FS lead (30%) gives these loads better down-range performance. "
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Ya I'm going to guess that fish and game will not care that the lead is copper plated
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Prairie Storm® is also offered in STEEL; see here.......
• 12ga - #PFS143FS (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=941)
• 20ga - #PFS207FS (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=942)
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dawei, thanks for the info on the steel version of the Prairie storm. I use the lead stuff and think that its the best load on wild roosters. I have noticed more feathers though. They are really tough to tease out through the pellet holes.Any one have any tricks? I see about 4 times the feathers and twice as big of hole with those nice cutter pellets holes. I have a hard time finding them in the local stores up near lynnwood. any one know stores carring them? I have only found them at Skagit Arms.
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Paul, I got my 20ga Prairie Storm® @ Wholesale Sports Outfitters® in Lacey. I agree w/you that the lead stuff is awesome. Where are you pheasant hunting where you can still hunt w/lead?
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You only have to use non-lead on pheasant release sites. There are actually places in this state where you can hunt wild birds.
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You only have to use non-lead on pheasant release sites. There are actually places in this state where you can hunt wild birds.
And some wildlife areas and i believe all refuges require non toxic for upland now too.
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Wow, thanks for the replies guys. One thing that we didn't do was try shooting steel at trap or skeet, so I guess you could say we are going at it blind. Like someone else said trying to shoot a new weight bullet without checking it at the range. We may need to spend some time at the range and do some pattern testing. My dad and son were both shooting 20 gauge #4's.
My dad shot skeet for a lot of years and my son is no slouch, so the results were surprising. We will get it down, but I think we are going to switch over to the Hevi-Metal and go from there especially since my dad and I have switched over to 20 gauge and I bought the same for my son in an over and under. This will be good for the occasional duck we see or jump out of a pond or ditch and the wildlife areas over in eastern washington that you know hold quail, but since you have lead you cannot stop at.
Since some people have been talking reloading has anyone tried to reload Hevi-Shot? Do they even sell shot to reload? Is there other non-toxic shots that can be reloaded? Also if you reloaded non-toxic shot how would you prove it was non-toxic without cutting open the shell or carrying around a receipt.
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GO SHOOT SOME CLAYS WITH THE STEEL! You wouldn't target shoot your deer rifle with 120 gr bullets all year and then go out and shoot 180's without resighting it in (I hope), same thing for the steel shot. Different velocity shells will shoot differently, practice with what you will hunt with. :twocents:
Exactely it !!!! just like choosing a turkey load ...find the best load and pattern and use it !!! simple as that :tup:
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You can load Bismuth and Nice Shot from Precision Reloading and ITX shot from Ballistic Products. I believe both of them carry Hevi shot but I haven't paid attention because I'm loading for vintage doubles. The Bismuth, Nice Shot and ITX are all safe in older shotguns designed for lead. They are heavier than Steel and just a little lighter than Lead and can be loaded so they can contact the barrel. One of my guns use 2 1/2" shells and I load it with oldtime fiber wads, Nice Shot and a roll crimp.
AWS
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The trick with steel shot is to have the higher feet per second FPS. Finally about 10 years ago all the manufactures finally learned to up the FPS on steel. I used to reload it a lot in the 90's not anymore though only trap rounds. Back in the day we were loading 1550 FPS 2 3/4 inch shells they were a duplex load of #3's steel with BBB on top, man they were good. I used them on pheasants too, they worked great. I should start loading them again.
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dawei, Only release sites are restricted to steel. ( and only starting this year in eastern washington)- of course duck and geese hunting is federally regulated. Most of the free world is not a release site. In other states they do not have release sites. I started hunting in Montana before moving here. I do hunt the release sites for gas savings. If you are willing to drive east there are other places to hunt. Just picked up 4 boxes of Prairie Storm #6. The hunting has really changed in the last ten years with farming practices and lease hunitng etc. I just love to get out where my dogs can do some real work.
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Remember all WPA's in MT are non toxoic for upland also and they hold alot of pheasants.
AWS
