Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Coyote, Small Game, Varmints => Topic started by: Donaye37 on November 03, 2011, 09:58:38 AM

Title: ethical question
Post by: Donaye37 on November 03, 2011, 09:58:38 AM: lets say your hounds treed a nice bobcat (or you called in a nice bobcat), and you find that the bobcat has two cubs with it, what do you do. do you shoot the mom and leave the babies, or shoot and harvest all three, or do you let them go and hope for a single cat to grab? i ask because if the situation was to arise, im wanting the bobcat for its pelt, so that would be three pelts right there with the two cubs, but they are cubs so idk if i could shoot em?
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Tony on November 03, 2011, 10:19:39 AM: Game regs. say you can't hunt bobcats with dogs but without if appears to be legal but maybe i missed something. Personally I'd let them walk just my :twocents:
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: wablkandtan on November 03, 2011, 11:02:18 AM: Let em walk. Take a Tom instead. You will be happier with the larger animal.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Machias on November 03, 2011, 11:19:37 AM: Pass on the moms with babies of any species...cannot run bobcats with dogs. IF your dogs chase one, say while you are out coon hunting. As soon as you get to the tree and look up and see a Robert staring back down at you, you better leash them dogs and get out of there quick. Don't take photos, don't do anything other than leash your dogs and leave.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Kain on November 03, 2011, 11:30:19 AM: If I could run cats with dogs I would pass on the females whenever possible.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 03, 2011, 11:35:58 AM: Don't shoot mom cats. Only Tom cats
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: dirty24d on November 03, 2011, 11:53:24 AM: Quote from: Machias on November 03, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
Pass on the moms with babies of any species...cannot run bobcats with dogs. IF your dogs chase one, say while you are out coon hunting. As soon as you get to the tree and look up and see a Robert staring back down at you, you better leash them dogs and get out of there quick. Don't take photos, don't do anything other than leash your dogs and leave.

:yeah:
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 03, 2011, 11:54:53 AM: I would pass on any thing that had young with it except a yote :twocents:
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Woodchuck on November 03, 2011, 12:14:59 PM: Why is a yote different?
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 03, 2011, 02:47:07 PM: Coyotes are a completly different animal then a cat or bear or what ever. They have helpers once the pups are out and about and when they are big enough to go on a hunt they have the helpers to teach them if there mothers gone. I wont hunt in the spring when they are in a den cause thats when they will starv and not survive. When I start calling I normaly get the pups first anyway cause they arnt as smart as the adults but if the adults come in I try for them.

Did you know when an area is hunted for yote and you start killing them that the females have more pups and the population grows faster? You have to keep at them or the numbers will be higher then before you started.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Woodchuck on November 03, 2011, 03:11:07 PM: I did not know that. Was just posing the question. :dunno:
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: jackmaster on November 03, 2011, 03:14:48 PM: find a tom to kill, i know its just a question but why would anyone want to kill a bobcat with babies :dunno:, or any other animal for that matter, even if it was legal which it aint, why would anyone want to, makes zero sense to me
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: pjb3 on November 03, 2011, 07:47:52 PM: I think the regs say no cats with spots are legal? Maybe its just lion :dunno:

I would not take them anyway, NOT ETHICAL in my book
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: ICEMAN on November 03, 2011, 08:23:59 PM: Good job asking fellow hunters regarding ethics and the laws. Good luck on the hunt.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: runamuk on November 03, 2011, 08:35:11 PM: Quote from: jackmaster on November 03, 2011, 03:14:48 PM
find a tom to kill, i know its just a question but why would anyone want to kill a bobcat with babies :dunno:, or any other animal for that matter, even if it was legal which it aint, why would anyone want to, makes zero sense to me

I'll take that....if we are assuming the entire reason for killing predators to begin with is to reduce population then it would seem to make sense that population is population so any dead predator reduces population. :dunno: not trying to argue and I dont think I could kill a baby critter unless it was sick or injured but thats me...
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Cap.Silver on November 03, 2011, 08:43:26 PM: Hey pjb3 what happened to the money you owe me and Frank ?That is NOT ETHICAL in my book either . I'm not gonna let you walk away from that so easy .Sorry for hacking your thread DONAYE 37.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: pjb3 on November 03, 2011, 09:45:13 PM: Quote from: Cap.Silver on November 03, 2011, 08:43:26 PM
Hey pjb3 what happened to the money you owe me and Frank ?That is NOT ETHICAL in my book either . I'm not gonna let you walk away from that so easy .Sorry for hacking your thread DONAYE 37.
I offered to take you hunting for free, game over now
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 04, 2011, 07:46:16 AM: To me there is a point where there is a line I wont cross with any game animal. let alone one that isnt seen or over populated like bobcats. You wont find me out killing coyote pups that are dependent on there mother still but once they are out and about its different cause they are at the age they can survive :twocents:. It is ethics of one person and there is a point it crule which every person has a different view. Ive had to deal with very young pups in a situation that was humanhealthandsafety. I can tell you it wasnt easy but had to be done.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: predatorpro on November 04, 2011, 08:57:04 AM: [/quote]Did you know when an area is hunted for yote and you start killing them that the females have more pups and the population grows faster? You have to keep at them or the numbers will be higher then before you started.
[/quote]
i have heard this theory before, but tell me how to coyotes know to have more pups? do they keep count on how many coyotes are in the county? and population numbers have nothing to do with eggs being fertilized last time i checked?
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 04, 2011, 09:57:20 AM: Quote from: predatorpro on November 04, 2011, 08:57:04 AM

Did you know when an area is hunted for yote and you start killing them that the females have more pups and the population grows faster? You have to keep at them or the numbers will be higher then before you started.
[/quote]
i have heard this theory before, but tell me how to coyotes know to have more pups? do they keep count on how many coyotes are in the county? and population numbers have nothing to do with eggs being fertilized last time i checked?
[/quote]

This happens in nature frequently. Deer have more twins and trips when numbers are down or forage is up. Same with elk. A biologist could answer this better than I, but I've heard about this happening with critter populations.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 04, 2011, 11:34:56 AM: If the food supply is up in an area they animal generally have more offspring basically. less coyotes with the same food supply = more pups and a higher survival rate too.

"The Litter: Litter sizes often range from four to seven pups, depending on food availability and the density of the surrounding coyote population. Some litters can be bigger; the largest litter we have found was 11 pups taken from one den.

Coyotes have the ability to adjust their litter sizes based on food abundance and population density. It is difficult for us to get reliable estimates of litter sizes in urban areas, but our results suggests that litter sizes are larger than average, indicating an abundant food supply. Pups stay in the den for about six weeks, and then begin traveling short distances with adults. By the end of summer, pups are spending some time away from parents and attempting to hunt on their own or with siblings."
from a study in ILL
http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/About_Coyotes.htm (http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/About_Coyotes.htm)
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 04, 2011, 11:45:37 AM: Reproduction. Coyotes mate in late February or early March; 60 to 63 days later the female gives birth to three to seven pups in an underground or brushpile den. Litter size and pup survival can vary greatly in relation to the food supply. Most female coyotes do not breed until their second year, unless food is abundant or the coyote population density is low. Coyotes breed only once a year and are monogamous, meaning males and females have only one mate in a single year. The male helps care for the young, which begin to travel with adults at about eight weeks of age.

from a Kentucky study
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for37/for37.htm (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for37/for37.htm)
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: stormin85 on November 04, 2011, 11:49:55 AM: here is another link, although focusing on how coyotes affect QDM it does cover how and why the increase in reproduction happens when the numbers are low, although it focuses more on the Managing deer side and what they do to numbers, and not so much on ethics of shooting young ones or multiples.

sorry as i realise this is a thread jck but very good info none the less.

http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/certification-program-readings/qdm-and-coyotes/ (http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/certification-program-readings/qdm-and-coyotes/)
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 04, 2011, 11:53:48 AM: I would not kill a female with kittens if I was just hunting. If I was having a problem with the cats (e.g., danger to my pets, killing farm animals), I would kill all three. Assuming it was a legal situation, season was open, not treed by dog, etc.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: rebal69972 on November 04, 2011, 11:58:30 AM: :yeah:
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: mtman on November 04, 2011, 07:22:36 PM: Too many people are ruled by there feelings. We kill for sport and for food. If you dont kill for food you kill for fun (sport). If thats fun for you and the population is healthy go for it.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Donaye37 on November 04, 2011, 07:46:53 PM: Quote from: demontang on November 03, 2011, 11:54:53 AM
I would pass on any thing that had young with it except a yote :twocents:

you would take the mom and the pups? idk they are pest and take all my rabbits haha
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: demontang on November 04, 2011, 07:50:57 PM: If your in a spot that they are killing your pets or live stock then it may be a option but just out and see a bob with kittens no way for me. Coyote pup can hunt after 8weeks
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Donaye37 on November 04, 2011, 07:54:09 PM: just thought id see other peoples points of views, thanks. guess i should have said coon with babies when your running your dogs or something that made sense legally, or a yote with pups.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Donaye37 on November 04, 2011, 07:55:37 PM: Quote from: demontang on November 04, 2011, 07:50:57 PM
If your in a spot that they are killing your pets or live stock then it may be a option but just out and see a bob with kittens no way for me. Coyote pup can hunt after 8weeks

yeah if your trying to get rid of them i thinks its all good, but if your just harvesting for food or pelts then no.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: Gringo31 on November 04, 2011, 08:03:52 PM: Spot on demontang!

I'm with ya. Anything other than a yote I'd let pass.
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: runamuk on November 04, 2011, 08:10:05 PM: if its legal its up to the hunter...I wont say what is ethically correct because a chicken killing coon needs to go down and if its got babies so be it....same for a coyote.....now if I am out just hunting bob cats for leisure I am probably gonna pass on a bobby with kittens.....thats just me.....bear you only get one tag so really you cant legally take a sow and then humanely take her cubs so from the legal perspective we are hands tied and the choice is sort of made for us....

If you are hunting for meat take whatever you choose and can feel comfortable with because truth is if its human over animal from a survival standpoint its mainly the animal rights people that will guilt you into believing what you did is wrong.....in other words if i was starving and all that presented itself was a "baby" critter...baby critter is gonna go down...its then about my existence.....

really ethics are individual ...
Title: Re: ethical question
Post by: FC on November 24, 2011, 12:37:47 PM: I proposed this year that if one of us took a sow with a cub by accident that the other guy would take the cub (barbecue size) but the guy that shot the sow had to send the cub's hide off to Michelle to be made into a pillowcase. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: