Post by: johng on December 07, 2011, 04:37:32 PM
Hi all,
This is my third year hunting and I think I am at the point of wanting to start hunting with a good upland bird dog who will also hopefully get me into some rabbits and perhaps retrieve a duck or two in not so cold water.
I have done some googling around and have found a couple breeders but I was hoping for "first hand" knowledge. Does anyone have a Brittany they got from a breeder in Washington state (preferably the wet side so I don't have to drive as far to see the dogs)?
Any insight you could provide would be most appreciated.
Thanks!
- Jg
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 07, 2011, 08:04:29 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 08, 2011, 08:18:36 AM
For A well bred Roughshooters dog............. Jim Lallas at the Acme huntclub has a litter of brittaines in the oven right now,they will be whelped in early february,They are double bred on the winningest brittiany in NSTRA trials, 32xCH Nolans last bullet.Jim had a son of nolans last bullet,and a daughter of Beeline Wink.Seen them hunt and have seen the above mentioned horseback dogs do their thing too.Neither are better than each other,pretty much = in abilites.Jims britt pups go quick............... 360-595-0166,As a new guy your going to need some guidance that only personal interaction can do.He's got the land,birds and a ton of know how.
Send me a PM. I have a few contacts of folks who have been judging pointer FT's for over 30 years. I can put you in touch with them if you want the "best".
Post by: johng on December 08, 2011, 10:35:18 AM
Thanks Wildweeds and Happy! I will be in touch with you and some of these guys to see what they have to say. Just want to make sure I make the right choice for a novice gun dog owner. I think it will be a ton of fun!!!
Post by: Boom Stick on December 10, 2011, 10:09:45 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 10, 2011, 10:46:33 AM
I am on here to ask the very same question. I see you mention horseback. Would you recommend these breeders for the foot hunter? Is there such a thing as a Brittany that hunts close vs. ranging? I'm not looking for a show dog. I want the Brittany for hunting.
it's more about who and how you train
Post by: wildweeds on December 10, 2011, 09:00:34 PM
As I've mentioned above,give the guy in Acme a call............he's all about the HUNT,I hunted with the prospective pups grandfather and he matched my pointer step for step,Jim hunted that dog on every bird this state has to offer plus ol shot would retrieve ducks from water.Shot was the only brittiany I've seen I would have owned.
I am on here to ask the very same question. I see you mention horseback. Would you recommend these breeders for the foot hunter? Is there such a thing as a Brittany that hunts close vs. ranging? I'm not looking for a show dog. I want the Brittany for hunting.
it's more about who and how you train
Post by: jetjockey on December 11, 2011, 06:41:40 AM
Post by: wildweeds on December 11, 2011, 09:00:14 AM
I would give Jim House a call. I believe he has a litter of pups on the ground right now. I would lean more towards AKC trial dog lines then I would NLB's lines of dogs. But thats just me. For a hunting dog, either would probably be just fine, but I haven't been overly impressed with the run you get out of NLB dogs. Before anyone bashes me for that comment. Yes, I have hunted over several of NLB's direct offspring, and yes, I have watched some of them compete at trials. You don't see a lot of NLB blood at AKC horseback trials, and I think there is a reason for that... I like a dog that ranges. Simply because you can always bring a dog in, its much, much tougher to push a dog out. With that said, NLB dogs seem to have a pretty good natural retrieve in them. If thats important, its something to think about. Jim House is pretty well respected in the brit world though, and I think he had a dog that won the AKC Gun Dog Nationals one year. He and the Littles are probably going to have the best bread brits in the NW.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 11, 2011, 01:30:40 PM
Post by: 10Key on December 11, 2011, 04:01:35 PM
And yes Happy, Brits are weird, that's why we love them :)
Post by: jetjockey on December 12, 2011, 06:05:25 AM
Happy.. To each their own. Ive hunted over 5 or 6 wirehairs, and my dog has ran against 3 or 4 in GD trials. One was supposidly even out of a NFC. I wasn't impressed. I realize that 8 -10 dogs isn't a good reference point, but Ill get to see more run at the AKC GD Nationals at Ames Plantation in TN if February. If I wanted a versatile dog then maybe, but otherwise, IMO brits are much better dogs.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 12, 2011, 11:45:16 AM
Wild.... When I hear someone say they have high powered dogs out of Brittany FT stock it usually makes me quiver. Im not sure how much you know about brits, but there is a huge push for people to get dual brits (trial and show champions). The problem arises when a show dog needs to get a FC. They will go to small weekend trials with very little competition to achieve this. As of right now, a brit still has to win a "major" trial to be awarded a FC. Unfortunately, the show people are trying to get that desolved so they can get more FC's with their show dogs. Believe me when I say not all FC brittanys are created equal. I have actually seen Brit clubs more or less tell Pro's not to show up at their trails because they didn't want the competition from the "real" brittany trial dogs.. The only brits I would look at would be dogs that have proven themselves in championship trials against other pro's strings. I have seen supposed FC brittanys that probably wouldn't make a decent hunting dog, and were junk trial dogs.......... I will disagree a little on the HB dog not being a good first timers dog. If the first timer is willing to listen, learn, and train their dogs, then they can be great first timers dogs. Typically a good HB dog has shown they can be good on birds, handle properly, and take training pretty well. My dad has a HUGE running little brit with rediculous amounts of horse power. She is a handfull, but has learned to be a good foot hunting dog. She needs more work on her birds, but shes pretty close. If she was allowed, she would be a true All Age brit that could go for hours. She was perfectly happy hanging at 700+ yards at summer camp this year, but she's a 200- yard dog off foot. A true first timer should probably get a close working lab. You don't really need to train a close working dog if all you want to do is kill birds.
Happy.. To each their own. Ive hunted over 5 or 6 wirehairs, and my dog has ran against 3 or 4 in GD trials. One was supposidly even out of a NFC. I wasn't impressed. I realize that 8 -10 dogs isn't a good reference point, but Ill get to see more run at the AKC GD Nationals at Ames Plantation in TN if February. If I wanted a versatile dog then maybe, but otherwise, IMO brits are much better dogs.
From a training standpoint and hunting on foot standpoint, I'll stick with WHP. They are easier to train and have less tendency to have issues through the training process IMHO. I've spend time around 4 every day all summer. another 2-3 on a semi-regular basis. The Brit club came out and had some training days at my place a few times. From an outsider looking in, I'd say getting a good birdy Brit which has what you need both as a pet and a gun dog is a crap shoot. I've seen some that are good training dogs but, not birdy, some that are birdy but don't like training and some that just don't want anything to do with neither birds or training. Not to say I haven't seen some good ones because I have and they train here everyday and became master hunters by the end of summer.
For an average guy who wants a dog with "out of the box" potential, I wouldn't recommend a Brit. You do have yours Professionally trained do you not? I think a lot of folks make little mistakes with Brits and they are not forgiving dogs when it comes to training. I think a lot of folks end up at a Pro because of this. Most Pro's I know don't care for training Brits because of them being so "sensitive" and come with "baggage".....(always man-made problems) but, this does accompany their personalities in training.
Post by: johng on December 12, 2011, 01:53:20 PM
Wow... thanks for all the responses and opinions... Now I am not so sure on the Brit. :dunno:
Basically, this will be my first hunting dog and what I am looking for is a good dog "out of the box" like someone put it in the thread. I am not saying that I don't want to train with the dog or even go to a few classes from an expert but I don't want to end up buying some expensive dog that will not be a good choice for a guy who doesn't have unlimited time (or experience) to train his new dog. Ideally, I want the breed and genetics of the dog to put me on birds and for me to just help him or her on its way. I heard "Gun Dog" was a good book to get. Perhaps I will buy a copy before purchasing my dog.
I have hunted with Brit (he was old but birdy), some labs and a German short hair. I liked the hunting experience best with the old Brit and the German short hair. The short hair was a great dog and had an awesome heart, very personable and is a great family dog as well but I think a little too high strung... I would be afraid of my new expensive doggie running off after a pheasant and not coming home... :yike:
Hmmmm...maybe I need to look at the Springer Spaniel?
Cheers,
jg
Post by: jetjockey on December 12, 2011, 01:59:43 PM
As far as it being a crapshoot to find a good brittany, thats total bunk. I have seen very few that weren't bird fools by the time they turned a year old. Their trial records in all breed trials speak for themselves. Brits took 2nd and 3rd at the AKC GD NC at 9 mile falls this year and the winningest NSTRA dog in history is a brit. Its going to be fun to watch all the dogs run at Ames this year at the AKC GD Nationals.. Id be willing to bet you see a brit on the podium when its all over.
Post by: jetjockey on December 12, 2011, 02:05:22 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 12, 2011, 03:03:38 PM
Mine is trained by a pro, but only because the pro spends summers in SD and he can put the dog on more birds in one summer then I can in a lifetime. I started her though, and she was broke by the time she was 14 months old. She was easily trained and held point to the flush from day one... There is a myth that brittany's are soft dogs, they aren't. But you can't beat the heck out of them like you can an EP either. The problem in the NW is that there just isn't many pro's Id send a brittany to, and many of the brits in the NW are not well bread dogs. Basically, IMO there are only 2 trainers I would use on the entire west coast, and only a handfull of dogs I would consider breeding too. Dave Walker, and Paul Doiron are great trainers. Ive seen some of the work of a couple other Pro's, and to say I wasn't impressed would be an understatement. The dogs turned out OK inspite of their training, not because of it.
As far as it being a crapshoot to find a good brittany, thats total bunk. I have seen very few that weren't bird fools by the time they turned a year old. Their trial records in all breed trials speak for themselves. Brits took 2nd and 3rd at the AKC GD NC at 9 mile falls this year and the winningest NSTRA dog in history is a brit. Its going to be fun to watch all the dogs run at Ames this year at the AKC GD Nationals.. Id be willing to bet you see a brit on the podium when its all over.
I wouldn't pay you a dime for two FC Pointers I've hunted with....not a good comparison for a hunter.
Post by: wildweeds on December 12, 2011, 04:29:32 PM
Since you mentioned the wirehairs................. do you know anyone looking for one? My trainer has one he is boarding for a gentleman who has hung up his guns,sold his horses and trailer and pickup. The dog is a bred to the hilt,completely broke ready to go and git em just turned three year old.Like R.J. told me,you could take him to a trial and be in the money or hunt him and kill a ton of birds,real nice specimen.And For what the old man wants for him it's a STEAL about the price of three well bred pups.
Also the thing about FC's is............... for every one that actually gets hunted there are ten that have never seen a wild bird killed with live gunfire.My personal experiance with seeing actually who owns em..........in setters it's 90% owned by a woman that is 50+ you can figure out how much hunting goes on.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 12, 2011, 05:34:59 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 12, 2011, 09:26:33 PM
Not really. I know someone looking for a started english setter. No luck with that....
Post by: jetjockey on December 13, 2011, 08:28:25 AM
Hey happy,
Also the thing about FC's is............... for every one that actually gets hunted there are ten that have never seen a wild bird killed with live gunfire.My personal experiance with seeing actually who owns em..........in setters it's 90% owned by a woman that is 50+ you can figure out how much hunting goes on.
Maybe in the NW, but where I live now in the SE, many of the trial dogs get hunted over. Most of the Pro's I know spend summers in SD and the trial dogs see TONS of wild birds. If the dogs don't, they won't get posted in the wild bird trials like the Chicken classics, Pheasant classics, and other wild bird trials.... Many trainers also kill birds over their trial dogs to help improve their steadyness.. As far as foot hunting trial dogs, its just a matter of doing it. Many trial dogs only get trialed, but that doesn't mean you can't foot hunt over them. Before I sent my dog off to the trainer I asked him if he could foot hunt his trial dogs. His response was "every single one of them, even the AA dogs". My dog finished in the top 10 in the country in All Age points in the American Brittany Club. Shes not what I would call a "true" AA dog, more of a big running SD, but I foot hunt the heck out of her for quail and wild SD pheasants. Just because a trial dog doesn't get hunted, doesn't mean they can't do it.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 14, 2011, 12:53:13 PM
Hey happy,
Also the thing about FC's is............... for every one that actually gets hunted there are ten that have never seen a wild bird killed with live gunfire.My personal experiance with seeing actually who owns em..........in setters it's 90% owned by a woman that is 50+ you can figure out how much hunting goes on.
Maybe in the NW, but where I live now in the SE, many of the trial dogs get hunted over. Most of the Pro's I know spend summers in SD and the trial dogs see TONS of wild birds. If the dogs don't, they won't get posted in the wild bird trials like the Chicken classics, Pheasant classics, and other wild bird trials.... Many trainers also kill birds over their trial dogs to help improve their steadyness.. As far as foot hunting trial dogs, its just a matter of doing it. Many trial dogs only get trialed, but that doesn't mean you can't foot hunt over them. Before I sent my dog off to the trainer I asked him if he could foot hunt his trial dogs. His response was "every single one of them, even the AA dogs". My dog finished in the top 10 in the country in All Age points in the American Brittany Club. Shes not what I would call a "true" AA dog, more of a big running SD, but I foot hunt the heck out of her for quail and wild SD pheasants. Just because a trial dog doesn't get hunted, doesn't mean they can't do it.
No, it definately doesn't although, percentage wise, how many Brits do you think win AA stakes in contrast to the other pointing breeds? While yours placed in the top 10 of the American Brit club, that is probably less than 1% of all Brits which ran in Field trials in the USA. Brits don't stand up well in numbers when you strickly look at numbers of entries. Very few Brits win FT's. Same as my favorite breed, Chesapeakes. An AA FT High Point Chessie "MIGHT" have 10 points. The AA High Point Lab probably has 250. I know Brits fair about the same as Chessies in FT's.
Post by: wildweeds on December 14, 2011, 06:37:20 PM
Actually britts fair really well in FT stakes..............it's because.............................the stakes are closed to all breed competion except for the AAA(amateur All age) and ALGD(Amateur limited gun dog,must have a prior placement to enter).The other thing that happens is the brittanypalooza in Texas in December,a bunch of closed stake trials done to rack up points and try to secure the #1 all breed gundog for the year.
Post by: jetjockey on December 15, 2011, 01:34:49 PM
Hey happy,
Also the thing about FC's is............... for every one that actually gets hunted there are ten that have never seen a wild bird killed with live gunfire.My personal experiance with seeing actually who owns em..........in setters it's 90% owned by a woman that is 50+ you can figure out how much hunting goes on.
Maybe in the NW, but where I live now in the SE, many of the trial dogs get hunted over. Most of the Pro's I know spend summers in SD and the trial dogs see TONS of wild birds. If the dogs don't, they won't get posted in the wild bird trials like the Chicken classics, Pheasant classics, and other wild bird trials.... Many trainers also kill birds over their trial dogs to help improve their steadyness.. As far as foot hunting trial dogs, its just a matter of doing it. Many trial dogs only get trialed, but that doesn't mean you can't foot hunt over them. Before I sent my dog off to the trainer I asked him if he could foot hunt his trial dogs. His response was "every single one of them, even the AA dogs". My dog finished in the top 10 in the country in All Age points in the American Brittany Club. Shes not what I would call a "true" AA dog, more of a big running SD, but I foot hunt the heck out of her for quail and wild SD pheasants. Just because a trial dog doesn't get hunted, doesn't mean they can't do it.
No, it definately doesn't although, percentage wise, how many Brits do you think win AA stakes in contrast to the other pointing breeds? While yours placed in the top 10 of the American Brit club, that is probably less than 1% of all Brits which ran in Field trials in the USA. Brits don't stand up well in numbers when you strickly look at numbers of entries. Very few Brits win FT's. Same as my favorite breed, Chesapeakes. An AA FT High Point Chessie "MIGHT" have 10 points. The AA High Point Lab probably has 250. I know Brits fair about the same as Chessies in FT's.
Your kidding me right? Look at the AKC National Gun Dog Championships that are held every year. Its not a closed stake, its open to all AKC registered pointing breeds. Brits do very, very well against other breeds at the AKC GD Nationals. Many of the Pro's from Washington attend. Heck, Wildweeds dog he has posted at the bottom of his posts actually ran against a brit at the AKC Nationals in 2008. The Brit his dog ran against finished 4th. That year brits took 2nd and 3rd in the retrieving stake and 1st, 3rd, and 4th in the non-retrieving stake. Usually only Paul Doiron shows up at the west coast trials, and he consistantly beats the Pro's from Washington who run ES's, GSP's, and other breeds. Look at the winningest NSTRA dog in history. It aint a EP, ES, GSP, GWP, or any other breed. Its a brittany. There is only 1 dog who was the first dog to be inducted to the NSTRA hall of fame. And Buddy is the most famous dog in NSTRA history.
As far as my dog is concerned. I guarantee you that 90% of the brits in the country run in the same ABC circuit as my dog. Every major horseback Brittany Pro runs the ABC circuit. While many of the Brit trials are closed, not all of them are. Brit pro's also run in stakes that aren't closed such as the AKC GD Nationals. Brittany's do very well against other breeds of dogs. I will agree, that their aren't many brits who run AF AA trials, but some of that has to do with the fact that AF judges simply won't post a dog with a short tail. Those trials are open to all breeds, but lets face it, with the exception of the occasional ES, you are only going to see EP's running.
Wildweeds... What is the brittany palooza that you talk about that supposidly occurs in Texas? Ive heard of pretty much every major brittany trial there is, but Ive never heard of the brittany palooza.
Post by: KFhunter on December 18, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
posted up I wanted a britt and guys like this chimed in and overloaded the thread then got into arguements about breedings and trainer and before I knew it the thread I made was hyjacked and I was a 3rd party listener trying to understand wtf they were all talking about :chuckle:
I got a Britt, my 1st and I tried (trying) to make a bird dog of her. She was a cull, got her pretty cheap last pup in the litter and smaller than the rest - half off normal price. great little starter dog I learned a ton from her. I won't get another dog though until I move out of town *hopefully soon* then I'll have my own birds and can train out the back door. I'm raising a few pigeons now, and I really hate them. Wouldn't be so bad if I had them further away from the house though. feed is expensive, so I'd check into buying birds if you can find a supplier and get em 5 bucks ea you'd be ahead!
you need gobs of birds.
I had some medical issues with my dog, so her training all but went away. I'll do it all over again, got a ton of money in all the equipment to do it. Launchers, collars, you name it I got it.
been expensive!
britts are weird, quirky and seem intellegent. all the labs I've had were all single minded hunting machines - this britt is not like a lab...at all.
labs will take a good amount of pressure to train - britts will fold
having said that, I'd get another britt in a heartbeat. not a boring dog!
Wow... thanks for all the responses and opinions... Now I am not so sure on the Brit. :dunno:
Basically, this will be my first hunting dog and what I am looking for is a good dog "out of the box" like someone put it in the thread. I am not saying that I don't want to train with the dog or even go to a few classes from an expert but I don't want to end up buying some expensive dog that will not be a good choice for a guy who doesn't have unlimited time (or experience) to train his new dog. Ideally, I want the breed and genetics of the dog to put me on birds and for me to just help him or her on its way. I heard "Gun Dog" was a good book to get. Perhaps I will buy a copy before purchasing my dog.
I have hunted with Brit (he was old but birdy), some labs and a German short hair. I liked the hunting experience best with the old Brit and the German short hair. The short hair was a great dog and had an awesome heart, very personable and is a great family dog as well but I think a little too high strung... I would be afraid of my new expensive doggie running off after a pheasant and not coming home... :yike:
Hmmmm...maybe I need to look at the Springer Spaniel?
Cheers,
jg
Springer and a Britt are totally different, springer isn't going to hold birds for ya they dive into cover and put the bird in the air - they always in gun range.
Britt is going to range out and will hold "point" the bird until you get there, after that you can train how you want the dog to handle once you finally *cough, huff huff huff ok breathe.... whew" get there :chuckle: