Post by: ghosthunter on December 27, 2011, 11:26:24 PM
I want to hunt everything deer,elk,caribou,black bear,antelope,wolf,coyote,moose,sheep,goats.
I am a *censored* so I want light recoil.
I shoot a 30.06 pump carbine now.
And I am a lefty.
What say ye ???
Post by: videoman on December 27, 2011, 11:30:10 PM
Post by: wraithen on December 27, 2011, 11:31:47 PM
Post by: JJB11B on December 27, 2011, 11:32:47 PM
Post by: JJB11B on December 27, 2011, 11:37:53 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on December 27, 2011, 11:38:11 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on December 27, 2011, 11:41:26 PM
Post by: wraithen on December 27, 2011, 11:45:28 PM
Hey OP, are you wanting to do this cold bore one shot type of a thing? Do you have somewhere to spend literally all day zeroing a rifle?
Post by: Miles on December 27, 2011, 11:51:58 PM
Post by: coyotewallace on December 27, 2011, 11:54:53 PM
Post by: JJB11B on December 27, 2011, 11:56:54 PM
Post by: Miles on December 27, 2011, 11:57:30 PM
Post by: coyotewallace on December 27, 2011, 11:58:37 PM
Is any of the major firearms companies building .338 Lapuas yet?Savage
Post by: Miles on December 27, 2011, 11:59:23 PM
I don't think you can build a 800yd ethical killing rifle for $700
I'm thinking he wanted to spend $700 or less on the rifle, not the rifle and scope. :dunno:
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 12:03:02 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 12:13:24 AM
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 12:15:51 AM
Post by: coyotewallace on December 28, 2011, 12:19:31 AM
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 12:21:52 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 12:25:10 AM
Post by: Miles on December 28, 2011, 12:27:17 AM
Ghost hunter, when you wake up and read this, please understand I'm not trying to bash you, I just don't think you've grasped the entire concept of all the math involved and the expense of shooting that far. There is only one way to shoot long distance. That one way is also the most expensive part of the entire equation. AMMO! And lots of it. TONS and TONS of it! Even if you handload it still won't be a good idea. Join a marksman club somewhere. I still talk to young joes in the army that think a sniper rifle is some gun with a massive scope on it. They can tell me the stats about every sniper system in call of duty, and when I start getting into the long range ballistics their go to response is to mumble something about the coriolis effect. Not a single one can tell me anything about moving turrets. They forget that bullets arc and they aren't laser beams.
I'm confused... You're bragging about schooling "young joes" in this post, but a couple posts back you posted this:
Shooting a man sized target at 300 meters is enough of a b!tch for me to do consistantly, let alone something I may actually have a use for.
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 12:33:32 AM
It took me 1500 rounds through my glock before I was good enough to hit a torso every time at 25 yards with only a second between each round in a magazine. I need more trigger time, and I'm finding out that that is the most expensive part of this whole process.
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 12:37:00 AM
Post by: Miles on December 28, 2011, 12:41:40 AM
No confusion miles, I didn't say that I could even dream about making the long shots. That doesn't mean I don't try to be a better marksman. I don't school the younger guys, I just ask questions to make them wonder if it's as easy as a video game. I personally am still a better shot with iron sights than I am with a scope. I'm getting better though. Me not being able to physically do something well doesn't equate to me not understanding what is involved in doing it well.
It took me 1500 rounds through my glock before I was good enough to hit a torso every time at 25 yards with only a second between each round in a magazine. I need more trigger time, and I'm finding out that that is the most expensive part of this whole process.
Ok, I get what you're saying. Have you thought about getting something like a .22 or .223 where you can get a bunch of ammo really cheap and just try plinking at various distances? I used to go through a brick of .22's a day, and just plinking at all different things at different ranges just to see if I could hit things consistently. I think that all that plinking helps a lot when you pick up a bigger caliber.
I also think that just getting out and trying to shoot a long range will help overcome the "this is hard to do" feeling. Try to find someplace where you can shoot at your own pace and and where you prefer to shoot, instead of at a range. Get a buddy and just go out and have some fun.
Post by: Bean Counter on December 28, 2011, 12:44:21 AM
Is he talking about cleanly harvesting these animals " deer,elk,caribou,black bear,antelope,wolf,coyote,moose,sheep,goats" out to 800 yards ?
In the interest of qualifying my comment: I did not read his post that way. I dont think you can build a hunting setup to kill from 100-800yards for $700. I DO think you could make a dedicated setup for ranges of 500-650 yards in that budget.
OP was impressed by an article but only said he wants a dedicated gun to shoot out to "longer ranges." So I guess its in the eye of thebeholder. I have a $500 scope+rifle combo that I can nail targets out to 550 yards consistently. Thats the farthest at the 'public' range I can shoot withoutpaying member dues.
OP also admitted to being a bit of a puss as far as recoil goes. Magnums dont really fit well into that. so I would go with .308 or .30-06.
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 12:47:45 AM
Miles I use the range at fort lewis. I generally like the atmosphere as it's relaxed compared to what I'm used to. I buy .223 by the 500's. I learned that the fundamentals still apply even with a scope :chuckle: I am getting better and I found out the last time I was there that I can shoot at the 300+ hanging sandbag or whatever targets I want. I was actually even considering that my issue was the ammo... til the wife shot :bash: I shoot circles around her with irons, she shames me with optics.
Post by: FC on December 28, 2011, 12:54:27 AM
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 12:56:41 AM
Wraithen, Don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way calling you a liar. I just want to know HOW IN THE F*$# a guy scope checks himself with an AR? Even the R-25 doesn't have much recoil. Ok, Just had to put that out there
Post by: Bean Counter on December 28, 2011, 12:58:12 AM
A while back I got a weeklong EMS training and a kick ass "trauma bag" to go with it. It has this spray can that looks like hair spray and is designed to clot larger open wounds quickly. Havent had a chance to use it yet but im not eager as im assuming its quite toxic.
Im quite curious where the glue idea comes from.
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 01:01:05 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 01:06:11 AM
FC, thanks, I'll give that a shot. It's always such a draw to make the target as big as possible now that I can. Guess I need to avoid the temptation some.
JJB11B I have no clue. It wasn't his weapon it was his buddies. They were 3 lanes down from me so I didn't get to witness it. I just saw the aftermath. I saw the blood on the scope or I wouldn't have believed it myself. I don't know what gun it was other than it was a so called "black gun" and after seeing what happened I didn't feel like getting too much closer to them. You can call me a liar if you want to I guess. I did have that insomniac post a week ago and it is 105am here :chuckle:
Post by: Miles on December 28, 2011, 01:09:05 AM
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 01:11:19 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 01:15:19 AM
OP if you aren't back by then I'm going to your house and I'm gonna stand 801 yards away and yell at you!
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 01:20:17 AM
Post by: high country on December 28, 2011, 07:52:09 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 07:57:09 AM
First, can you shoot to 800 accurately? If so, then you already know what you need :tup: done! You will need a fair amount in scope, bottom barrel I'd say 200 bucks should do it. That leaves 500 for a rifle? Buy a savage stevens and get a real stock and a decent trigger for it. You're out of money so hope that barrel is a shooter!
I am not saying i want or would shoot 800 yards I was citing something I read. Give me a good long range soloution in buget. Thats all. Weather I can or would is up to me. Lets just talk rifle and scope save the other stuff for another thread.
Thank you for your input.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 07:59:29 AM
Oh yeah, youll need a good range finder, several hundred bucks for one of those, too. if you.don't already own one and dont have.a sepatate budget for that then I'm with the above.who say youre a bit thin.in the wallet to undertake this.
Have range finder. Intrested in rifle and scope suggestions.
Thank you for your help.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:01:46 AM
I'm not saying that at all. He may very well be able to slap something together that can do the job at that range. I doubt he can work the trigger and turrets for the shot though. Most people don't understand what makes a shot that hard in real life. Shooting a man sized target at 300 meters is enough of a b!tch for me to do consistantly, let alone something I may actually have a use for.
Hey OP, are you wanting to do this cold bore one shot type of a thing? Do you have somewhere to spend literally all day zeroing a rifle?
Guys you are over thinking it. Dont worry about all the other stuff. What would you use for rifle and scope.?
Thank you for your input.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:04:18 AM
Is he talking about cleanly harvesting these animals " deer,elk,caribou,black bear,antelope,wolf,coyote,moose,sheep,goats" out to 800 yards ?
Ok a lot of you are hung up on the 800 yards. Give me your best rifle & scope in buget and how far you think it is good for.100,2000,500?
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:05:30 AM
I don't think you can build a 800yd ethical killing rifle for $700
I'm thinking he wanted to spend $700 or less on the rifle, not the rifle and scope. :dunno:
700.00 rifle
Scope is extra
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:08:45 AM
Ghost hunter, when you wake up and read this, please understand I'm not trying to bash you, I just don't think you've grasped the entire concept of all the math involved and the expense of shooting that far. There is only one way to shoot long distance. That one way is also the most expensive part of the entire equation. AMMO! And lots of it. TONS and TONS of it! Even if you handload it still won't be a good idea. Join a marksman club somewhere. I still talk to young joes in the army that think a sniper rifle is some gun with a massive scope on it. They can tell me the stats about every sniper system in call of duty, and when I start getting into the long range ballistics their go to response is to mumble something about the coriolis effect. Not a single one can tell me anything about moving turrets. They forget that bullets arc and they aren't laser beams.
No problem, Give me your best choice of rifle 700.00 .Scope is extra. Dont worry about the other stuff.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 28, 2011, 08:09:13 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:12:57 AM
Is he talking about cleanly harvesting these animals " deer,elk,caribou,black bear,antelope,wolf,coyote,moose,sheep,goats" out to 800 yards ?
In the interest of qualifying my comment: I did not read his post that way. I dont think you can build a hunting setup to kill from 100-800yards for $700. I DO think you could make a dedicated setup for ranges of 500-650 yards in that budget.
OP was impressed by an article but only said he wants a dedicated gun to shoot out to "longer ranges." So I guess its in the eye of thebeholder. I have a $500 scope+rifle combo that I can nail targets out to 550 yards consistently. Thats the farthest at the 'public' range I can shoot withoutpaying member dues.
OP also admitted to being a bit of a puss as far as recoil goes. Magnums dont really fit well into that. so I would go with .308 or .30-06.
Thank you someone did read my post. :yeah:
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 08:16:21 AM
True enough. It's hard to keep a thread on topic at 1 am when the OP went to bed right after he posted. Speaking of which I should try that again. I'll be back in 5 hours.
OP if you aren't back by then I'm going to your house and I'm gonna stand 801 yards away and yell at you!
Come on Iam easy and always like talking hunting and shooting. Bring your own coffee, I do not drink the stuff.
Now back on task fellows. What's my rifle going to be.?
Post by: Hyde on December 28, 2011, 08:20:30 AM
There are a lot of guys here that praise the Tikka. They offer a lot of caliber options for lefties. Savage has a good lineup as well, but for me, it's the 700 Rem.
Post by: coop2424 on December 28, 2011, 08:25:37 AM
Post by: rem700300 on December 28, 2011, 11:27:01 AM
Post by: ing on December 28, 2011, 11:37:20 AM
Is any of the major firearms companies building .338 Lapuas yet?Weatherby is chambering it in their Mark V now, but its well over $700.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 01:16:29 PM
700 Rem in 300 WM
Tika 6.5x55
Tikka T3 Swede
Savage
.308
30.06
Rem BDLin 7mmRem Mag.
Conquest scope or Leupold.
And Super glue is good for wounds.
So given only those options lets vote. What will it be? Rifle under 700.00.
Top your 700 or less rifle with a scope. (I am a little near sighted )
And how far out would your choice be good for?
I thank each and everyone one of you for your comments.
Post by: Bean Counter on December 28, 2011, 01:26:21 PM
Also since $700 is your budget for just your rifle (it wasnt clear from the OP), I would consider a Leupold fixed 12x with mildots since this is goi.g to be a dedicated long range rifle and not also used for beating the brush on the wet side.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on December 28, 2011, 01:47:01 PM
ok gentlemen we have
700 Rem in 300 WM
Tika 6.5x55
Tikka T3 Swede
Savage
.308
30.06
Rem BDLin 7mmRem Mag.
Conquest scope or Leupold.
I hate remington rifles, but this one with better glass should do the trick. Have fun finding a lefty though. http://seattleguns.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64328
LH Savage in 308 or the LH Tikka in 6.5x55... You said you're recoil shy so that cuts out the magnums.
Pillar/Glass bed the factory stock. Adjust the trigger. Put a good Limbsaver recoil pad on it.
Either a Conquest or Leupold scope with micro turrett for elevation is possible for near moa at +500yds with hand loads from sand bags with practice (with a shooting coach). Any farther than that, you're wanting better glass and a heavy barrel.
-Steve
Post by: Bob33 on December 28, 2011, 02:02:08 PM
Savage is also. They offer it in three different rifles.Is any of the major firearms companies building .338 Lapuas yet?Weatherby is chambering it in their Mark V now, but its well over $700.
Search by caliber.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/finder/
Post by: Curly on December 28, 2011, 02:25:01 PM
Post by: Skillet on December 28, 2011, 02:25:48 PM
Guys you are over thinking it. Dont worry about all the other stuff. What would you use for rifle and scope.?
Thank you for your input.
I'm afraid you're under thinking it. You've gone from starting the conversation by citing an 800 yard rifle combo and asking for equipment suggestions based on that to saying "what's your favorite" and telling you what range it would be good to... I used to drag race and worked for a year at Super Shops, and this has that familiar "bench racing" stench all over it. You need to know that a "longer range" rig is a tuned system, not just an assembly of parts. Just like a performance vehicle. You an slap a supercharger on your small block 1974 Plymouth Duster but it won't get you a fender ahead on a school bus if you're still running an open differential and stock 2.55 gears...
You say don't worry about all the other stuff? I say don't waste your time until you decide that worrying about the other stuff is going to make as much of a difference as your caliber selection.
:twocents:
Post by: Skillet on December 28, 2011, 02:27:45 PM
Ghosthunter, consider a Savage Long Range Hunter 11/111 in 7mm Rem mag or 300 Win Mag. It has a muzzlebreak so you should be able to handle the magnum recoil. You might find it for around $700. :twocents:
For the used $700 rifle, I like this idea in the 7mm. It's a heavier gun, too.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 28, 2011, 02:35:26 PM
Since you are a lefty (so am I), a custom rifle is just about out of the question. Your factory rifles are limited too. Get yourself a Rem 700 BDL in 7mm Rem Mag (you can find one for $500 if you watch Gunbroker, or the other sites). If you want a little more range, a gunsmith can turn it into a 7mm STW for under a hundred dollars. As for scope, I like Leupold. Model would depend on how fat my wallet was at the time. I like the plain old VX3 in 3.5x10.
There are a lot of guys here that praise the Tikka. They offer a lot of caliber options for lefties. Savage has a good lineup as well, but for me, it's the 700 Rem.
You just described my setup, except that I got the VX3 with the CDS knobs on it. Shot it out to 700 yards this summer accurately. My CDS tops out at 800. Shooting 168 gr Berger VLDs.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 02:52:27 PM
Guys you are over thinking it. Dont worry about all the other stuff. What would you use for rifle and scope.?
Thank you for your input.
I'm afraid you're under thinking it. You've gone from starting the conversation by citing an 800 yard rifle combo and asking for equipment suggestions based on that to saying "what's your favorite" and telling you what range it would be good to... I used to drag race and worked for a year at Super Shops, and this has that familiar "bench racing" stench all over it. You need to know that a "longer range" rig is a tuned system, not just an assembly of parts. Just like a performance vehicle. You an slap a supercharger on your small block 1974 Plymouth Duster but it won't get you a fender ahead on a school bus if you're still running an open differential and stock 2.55 gears...
You say don't worry about all the other stuff? I say don't waste your time until you decide that worrying about the other stuff is going to make as much of a difference as your caliber selection.
:twocents:
Easy big guy. I am just looking for a starting point. I have lots of research to do. And there will be lots of other folks to talk to. But it gives me some points to discuss. Guys on this forum recommended this or that what do you think. It is all a process No one says I am going with the most popular gun or scope. It is all food for thought. if you had your choice what would it be?
If over half people here say this rifle and that scope than I will look at that rifle and scope for starters.
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 02:58:06 PM
I did not ask for rifle to shoot 800 yards, I read about a guy who put one together.
I am intrested in a rifle for longer distances, longer than 200 yards out to 800?? ok
Thank you all for your input. I like to here the different veiws.
Post by: wraithen on December 28, 2011, 03:16:51 PM
Post by: Austrian Hunter on December 28, 2011, 03:41:16 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 28, 2011, 03:57:08 PM
Ok I could not resist, not for $700 though
Also NOT $700... :chuckle: PathfinderJR shooting my buddy's .416 Barrett (in a Macmillan). We were whacking head-sized rocks at 1200 yds though... :tup:
Post by: deleted BGS on December 28, 2011, 04:10:37 PM
Post by: Austrian Hunter on December 28, 2011, 04:44:28 PM
Ok I could not resist, not for $700 though
Also NOT $700... :chuckle: PathfinderJR shooting my buddy's .416 Barrett (in a Macmillan). We were whacking head-sized rocks at 1200 yds though... :tup:
This is a MCMILLAN TAC 50 in .50 BMG in my pic. Nice rig PathfinderJR. :chuckle:
Post by: sirmissalot on December 28, 2011, 04:54:04 PM
You wont shoot 700 yards with a 3-9 scope. I am in the process of buying a new 4.5-14x50 cds scope that is more than $700 itself. It will be going on an old hunting rifle, i dont have enough money for a .338 or .300rum. It will be a browning a bolt .300wsm with brake. Will be able to shoot 700 with the turn of a turret! Going to WY next year to hunt pronghorn, gonna see how far i can kill one at :tup:
700 yard antelope kills will be fun in wyoming with the wind :tup:
I agree on the scope 100%, best investment I ever made was a Swarovski Z6 in 3-18x50
Post by: Skillet on December 28, 2011, 04:56:11 PM
Easy big guy. I am just looking for a starting point. I have lots of research to do. And there will be lots of other folks to talk to. But it gives me some points to discuss. Guys on this forum recommended this or that what do you think. It is all a process No one says I am going with the most popular gun or scope. It is all food for thought. if you had your choice what would it be?
If over half people here say this rifle and that scope than I will look at that rifle and scope for starters.
Fair enough. Here's my $.02-
Since you're not attached to any one brand over another, go get a Savage 110 in 7mm with accutrigger and accustock. Savage Long Range Hunter if you can find a good one for under the $700. In my humble opinion, that is the most likely turn-key 500 yard capable gun in your budget range that won't need any attention by a gunsmith.
Whatever you save by not buying the Remington add to what you planned on spending on your scope. Buy the scope you want to end up with. You can rechamber, rebarrel, restock, retrigger etc. your gun, but the scope you buy is what you have (get a model you can add turrets to later if you can't afford that now). When you decide that you've taken the Savage as far as you want to, no problem. Just call up RBros and have them park one of their semi-custom jobs built on the Remington 700 action under your scope. Or start with your own 700 and build up from there. Or maybe you've become a died-in-the-wool Savage guy by that time and just keep building your 110. All of this from a guy that owns M70 Winchesters - which I love, but wouldn't pick as an out-of-the-box platform for long range accuracy.
As far as scopes go - I've got a Leupold Vari-X III in 3.5-10 with a 40mm objective and I don't think it's near enough scope for 600+ yard work. It's a great 50-400 yard scope. For longer ranges, I think you need to look at Ziess, Swaro, Nightforce, etc. There are guys on here that know a lot more about the high end scopes than I do. Whatever you do, don't short yourself in the glass department out of the gate.
I'm interested in what you end up doing - keep us posted.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on December 28, 2011, 07:14:33 PM
Somewhere in this thread you said:
"Give me a good long range soloution in buget. Thats all. Weather I can or would is up to me. Lets just talk rifle and scope save the other stuff for another thread."
Most every response is out of your budget showing off what they would do or have done.
If it was me,
Since most lefties are ambidextrious, how about a Savage right hand bolt, left port precision target action!!!
http://www.6mmbr.com/actions.html#Savage
Find one used from an F-class shooter for around $300.
Then pick a barrel. 24" Krieger or a Hart in 308win for around $300. 1-10 or 1-11 twist should do nicely for heavier bullets. I have a friend that will 'show me' how to twist a barrel on a Savage action and set the head space correctly.
Now find a composite stock that fits you. Less than another $150. (you're still in budget if you're within 20%!) I like light stocks. You can always drill and add weight.
Learn to pillar/glass bed it yourself. Maybe on a couple different doner rifles first. It is not rocket science!
A good recoil pad!
Bipod from the used parts of many forums.
You said that optics are the second part of the budget. (that includes the mount/rings)
What's listed above is within your budget and will most likely shoot well beyond 600yds accurately with the correct head space set and good target ammo. Whether 'you' can do it is another story.
Outside your budget, I would buy a new Tikka in 300wsm and see what she'll do with some good glass on her. If not good to the ranges you specify, then I'd rebarrel it. Is the Tikka the most accurate out of the box? Probably not. (maybe for the price) But I'd still be trying to stay near your budget. Listed somewhere here was a Savage 110 complete. Not a bad choice! I would also look for the Savage action (for a good price) I referenced, even as a righty. Once you know how to set head space with correct tools, you could rebarrel that action any time you want without the aid of a gunsmith. Sticking with any of the cartridges based off the 30-06 so you don't need to mess with bolt face modifications. The Savage action is very versital for the person that wants to build their own rifle.
-Steve
Post by: deerslyr on December 28, 2011, 08:54:11 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on December 28, 2011, 09:10:14 PM
But used would be a great way to get started.
Watch the ones on GunBroker that don't sell. Contact the shop a couple weeks later and make an offer.
-Steve
Post by: norsepeak on December 28, 2011, 09:15:48 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 28, 2011, 09:38:34 PM
You wont shoot 700 yards with a 3-9 scope. I am in the process of buying a new 4.5-14x50 cds scope that is more than $700 itself. It will be going on an old hunting rifle, i dont have enough money for a .338 or .300rum. It will be a browning a bolt .300wsm with brake. Will be able to shoot 700 with the turn of a turret! Going to WY next year to hunt pronghorn, gonna see how far i can kill one at :tup:
Hahaha, give me a 3-9 with target knobs and I'll take it to 1K in cruise mode. :tup:
Post by: deleted BGS on December 28, 2011, 10:30:09 PM
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 10:34:23 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on December 28, 2011, 11:10:35 PM
stay away from savage. terrible, until you feel one they sound like a good deal, as stated above buy a tikka and throw a leupold rifleman on it thats your $700!
There are alot of you for Tikka. And Leupold.
Is everyone sayng a bolt action? Or are there some semi autos to consider? Dont flame me I had to ask.
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 11:12:58 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on December 28, 2011, 11:36:04 PM
Accuracy International .338 Lapua Artic Warfare Super Magnum. Park A Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 PMII scope on her and you will never have to worry again
Yeah! I gotta git me one of those! Just a tad shy of $9,000 for the combination.
-Steve
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 11:40:01 PM
Post by: Miles on December 28, 2011, 11:43:19 PM
Post by: high country on December 29, 2011, 07:12:15 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 29, 2011, 07:38:58 AM