Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 01:07:28 AM
I have not been around lately and did not know the wolf meeting was going to occur today in Stevens County so I was not in attendance. But I heard about it on the local radio this evening and local people are fired up. One thing for sure, there are no wolf lovers controlling ranchers voicing their opinions or the local radio in Colville.
The WA Wildlife Commission approved a flawed wolf plan to allow too many wolves, everyone knows the WDFW is incapable of confirming wolves, and too many cattle are missing. Local ranchers are seeing wolves near their cattle and when this has happened in every other wolf state, cattle come up dead or missing.
Guess what, local ranchers the McIrvins are missing numerous bulls, cows, calves, etc. They had 200 cow/calf pairs in another GMU all summer with no wolf activiy and they are only missing one calf there. The disgusting part is that WDFW had their (one) statewide wolf trapper in the area this year and he was unable to collar any wolves.
Last election our county elected a popular cattleman as county commissioner and I am told that the other commissioners are also worried about these wolves and their effect on local cattlemen and the economy. In the past NE counties have considered kicking WDFW management out of the county. If WDFW doesn't hire some capable people to "confirm" these wolves, I could see it happening.
Remember, eastern WA is already federallly delisted. The main thing holding back wolf management in NE Washington is a wolf loving management agency. If our citizens, county commissioners, and sherrif all want a wolf hunt to eliminate problem wolves, its going to be hard to prevent something from happening.
I will find out more about what occurred and report back. :tup:
Post by: JJB11B on December 28, 2011, 01:11:50 AM
Post by: christopheri on December 28, 2011, 01:18:59 AM
Post by: rasbo on December 28, 2011, 01:40:41 AM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 01:43:28 AM
There are a couple of things I dont understand. One, why does the WDFW only have one trapper for all of WA and Two, why in the hell if wolfs are delisted in E. Washington cant we hunt them? Can ranchers shoot them if they find them harrasing their livestock?
It's complicated and I don't have the rules sitting in front of me but I will try to elaborate:
WDFW appears to have no intention of confirming wolves. We have a local trapper the ranchers like that wants a job confirming wolves, the ranchers would readily let him know when and where they see wolves. We also have an indian tribe willing to helpo confirm wolves, but I have heard the WDFW will not accept their help either. Instead we have one trapper for the whole state and an assortment of wolf loving agency managers sitting in Olympia patting themselves on the back and recieving kudos from Defenders of Wildlife for getting a flawed wolf plan approved by the commission. I doubt WDFW will hire any proven trappers anytime soon that will get wolves confirmed quickly.
Washington itself has it's own endangered species list and still has wolves listed even though the feds delisted. Yes, we are preventing ourselves from doing any management. Federally speaking, once the state wolf plan is approved the state could allow wolf management. But in my opinion, the WDFW is so afraid of I-5 corridor wolf lovers, it's questionable if they will even try to get anymore wolves confirmed or work toward allowing management. I don't know what they actually think, I'm just calling that as it appears.
The Colville tribe told WDFW they are managing wolves as soon as they have their own plan. I know that county commissioners in Ferry county and I think Okanbogan County are supporting them. The Kalispell's want to conduct moose counts and want to do wolf monitoring, but WDFW seems to be resisting. It seems as if WDFW doesn't want data available, again just calling that the way it appears from the outside looking in.
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 01:51:59 AM
are thet finding carcasses?Or Something to validate that it is in fact wolves..
This rancher had the first USFWS and WDFW confirmed wolf kill in Washington several years ago, wolves have been in GMU 105 (where their ranch is) for many years. But WDFW doesn't list them. :bash:
Wolf pups were whelped in 2010, many people saw the pups in various areas. I have documented wolf sightings all over the unit including right where the ranchers cattle graze. I don't know if pups were raised in 2011, but there are so many sightings that many people think there is now 2 packs in GMU 105.
No actual kills found of cattle yet, but numerous deer kills found in same areas where cattle are missing. One deer lkill this week right along the Kettle river was completely eaten overnight, so that explains how tough to find actual kills in that area will be with the heavy cover. Full grown bulls don't just disappear, I think the radio said 4 bulls are missing.
Post by: grundy53 on December 28, 2011, 05:31:23 AM
Post by: HairTrigger on December 28, 2011, 05:41:43 AM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 06:03:14 AM
If bulls are missing then it's not cougars or coyotes. That leaves natural causes, grizzlies, or wolves. 4 bulls dead from natural causes seems like too much of a coincedence...
I just barely caught it all, I will try to get more precise info but I believe it included 4 bulls, and numerous cows and calves. There are numerous wolf sightings in the same area, no I don't think it's co-incidence with bulls and adult cows missing besides calves. At one time before this went public I had heard it was 20 to 24 head missing, the radio will say the numbers again today. It's just a matter of time to find a wolf kill, then that will remove any doubt. Wolves have also been seen near the neighboring ranchers cattle, and I've had reports through the forum from members of wolves sighted in the area. One guy on a road building crew that was in there this summer and when his truck broke down he was on foot and was surrounded by howling wolves.
Post by: huntnnw on December 28, 2011, 06:16:05 AM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 06:47:28 AM
Id be interested in knowing the numbers of the Phillips family cattle outta northport...there are wolves there and living right on their property. 5 at last count
That's probably the pack I lost track of, if we could solidfy the timing that a pack has been on the west side of 105 near McIrvins and when this pack was on Phillips, then we would know if there are likely two packs in 105. We have been thinking there are two packs, but I lost track of this pack you are saying has been on Phillips. Are they missing cattle too?
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 07:12:04 AM
6 cows, 16 calves, 5 bulls, all 27 missing from McIrvins herd.
Numerous piles of Wolf nmanure found full of cattle hair.
Cattlemen want permits to kill wolves seen near cattle.
County commissioners were in attendance in support of cattlemen.
Post by: Gringo31 on December 28, 2011, 07:27:29 AM
What is it they do again? :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 08:10:40 AM
Just heard more, another neighboring rancher is missing a large number of cattle too, and cattle are coming in off range with bites on them, it's not good.
McIrvin says he can go 1/2 mile in any part of that area and show you wolf sign.
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 08:24:56 AM
I personally seen sign in yakima county in the tieton unit while helping my brother in law on his big horn sheep hunt. This picture is the size of my palm a lil bigger then my palm
HairTrigger, I appreciate your input, but this looks like a cougar track. Did you get any other photos of possible wolf tracks?
This link can help with wolf and cougar track identification: http://washingtonwolf.info/identification.html
Post by: villageidiot on December 28, 2011, 10:29:59 AM
Post by: buckhorn2 on December 28, 2011, 10:50:00 AM
Post by: Jack Diamond on December 28, 2011, 11:14:29 AM
there is the possibility of rustling, sure would seem like there would be a carcass or two around, not starting anything,just saying, only way to be compensated for missing cattle, is to have them declared as wolf depradation, however carcasses will have to be examined. :dunno:are thet finding carcasses?Or Something to validate that it is in fact wolves..
This rancher had the first USFWS and WDFW confirmed wolf kill in Washington several years ago, wolves have been in GMU 105 (where their ranch is) for many years. But WDFW doesn't list them. :bash:
Wolf pups were whelped in 2010, many people saw the pups in various areas. I have documented wolf sightings all over the unit including right where the ranchers cattle graze. I don't know if pups were raised in 2011, but there are so many sightings that many people think there is now 2 packs in GMU 105.
No actual kills found of cattle yet, but numerous deer kills found in same areas where cattle are missing. One deer lkill this week right along the Kettle river was completely eaten overnight, so that explains how tough to find actual kills in that area will be with the heavy cover. Full grown bulls don't just disappear, I think the radio said 4 bulls are missing.
Post by: BIGINNER on December 28, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on December 28, 2011, 11:29:24 AM
Post by: lilshootergirl on December 28, 2011, 12:17:52 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 12:50:34 PM
If I was a rancher I would feel like any wolf comes near my cattle is a dead wolf, unfortunately WDFW doesn't see it that way, look at the situation everywhere that livestock are being eaten by wolves: Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Oregon, etc....
As stated on the radio, the ranchers have picked up numerous wolf scat filled with cattle hair.... :dunno: :chuckle: :bash:
Post by: Helix on December 28, 2011, 12:53:44 PM
I personally seen sign in yakima county in the tieton unit while helping my brother in law on his big horn sheep hunt. This picture is the size of my palm a lil bigger then my palm
HairTrigger, I appreciate your input, but this looks like a cougar track. Did you get any other photos of possible wolf tracks?
This link can help with wolf and cougar track identification: http://washingtonwolf.info/identification.html
:yeah: the M shape of the bottom of the track is the main indicator it is a coug track. This is a quick easy way to distinguish feline/canine tracks.
Post by: huntnphool on December 28, 2011, 01:01:20 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 28, 2011, 01:06:04 PM
Sometime it's easy to forget that the rancher should not have to prove wolves exist, to keep his cattle safe. It should be the responsibility of WDFW to do keep wolves out of their cattle, after all it's the government that told the people they would monitor wolves and take care of problems, unfortunately their (1) statewide trapper has not been able to do that.BP, the adopted States wolf plan (wolf disaster implementation and crammed down our throats plan as I refer to it) does not make any provisions for protection or reimbursement for losses of livestock. Correct?
If I was a rancher I would feel like any wolf comes near my cattle is a dead wolf, unfortunately WDFW doesn't see it that way, look at the situation everywhere that livestock are being eaten by wolves: Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Oregon, etc....
As stated on the radio, the ranchers have picked up numerous wolf scat filled with cattle hair.... :dunno: :chuckle: :bash:
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 01:18:48 PM
Sometime it's easy to forget that the rancher should not have to prove wolves exist, to keep his cattle safe. It should be the responsibility of WDFW to do keep wolves out of their cattle, after all it's the government that told the people they would monitor wolves and take care of problems, unfortunately their (1) statewide trapper has not been able to do that.BP, the adopted States wolf plan (wolf disaster implementation and crammed down our throats plan as I refer to it) does not make any provisions for protection or reimbursement for losses of livestock. Correct?
If I was a rancher I would feel like any wolf comes near my cattle is a dead wolf, unfortunately WDFW doesn't see it that way, look at the situation everywhere that livestock are being eaten by wolves: Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Oregon, etc....
As stated on the radio, the ranchers have picked up numerous wolf scat filled with cattle hair.... :dunno: :chuckle: :bash:
I would have to check again, if there is, it would have to be confirmed kills, that means the rancher would have to scour the west side of GMU 105 for remains from 27 head of cattle and then try to get WDSFW or USFWS up there. To my knowledge, WDFW does not seem to want to take much responsibility in these matters.
Post by: Gringo31 on December 28, 2011, 01:22:00 PM
Quote
It should be the responsibility of WDFW to do keep wolves out of their cattle, after all it's the government that told the people they would monitor wolves and take care of problems, unfortunately their (1) statewide trapper has not been able to do that.
I would think a lawsuit would be in order?
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 01:40:42 PM
Post by: seth30 on December 28, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Post by: Jack Diamond on December 28, 2011, 02:24:43 PM
Post by: Special T on December 28, 2011, 02:38:23 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 02:43:43 PM
You are right if growers are forced to feed year around the price of beef will increase or ranchers will get pushed out of earning a living. If they have to feed year around, more ground will need to be tilled for crops, seems smarter to graze the mountains to me.
Post by: Jack Diamond on December 28, 2011, 05:11:40 PM
So they are just now gathering the cattle?? or is this something that they figured out in Oct. or Nov. and just got vocal about?? I would still lean towards a gooseneck trailer, couple panels, couple good dogs, Range Bulls are not easy to kill. If it were calves and a few cows then I would consider the story as stated.there is the possibility of rustling, sure would seem like there would be a carcass or two around, not starting anything,just saying, only way to be compensated for missing cattle, is to have them declared as wolf depradation, however carcasses will have to be examined. :dunno:are thet finding carcasses?Or Something to validate that it is in fact wolves..
This rancher had the first USFWS and WDFW confirmed wolf kill in Washington several years ago, wolves have been in GMU 105 (where their ranch is) for many years. But WDFW doesn't list them. :bash:
Wolf pups were whelped in 2010, many people saw the pups in various areas. I have documented wolf sightings all over the unit including right where the ranchers cattle graze. I don't know if pups were raised in 2011, but there are so many sightings that many people think there is now 2 packs in GMU 105.
No actual kills found of cattle yet, but numerous deer kills found in same areas where cattle are missing. One deer lkill this week right along the Kettle river was completely eaten overnight, so that explains how tough to find actual kills in that area will be with the heavy cover. Full grown bulls don't just disappear, I think the radio said 4 bulls are missing.
and wolf poop with "cow hair" , not good enough to classify as "factual evidence" of a murdering rampage. Fire away boys, just stating the obvious. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 28, 2011, 05:18:15 PM
Sometime it's easy to forget that the rancher should not have to prove wolves exist, to keep his cattle safe. It should be the responsibility of WDFW to do keep wolves out of their cattle, after all it's the government that told the people they would monitor wolves and take care of problems, unfortunately their (1) statewide trapper has not been able to do that.BP, the adopted States wolf plan (wolf disaster implementation and crammed down our throats plan as I refer to it) does not make any provisions for protection or reimbursement for losses of livestock. Correct?
If I was a rancher I would feel like any wolf comes near my cattle is a dead wolf, unfortunately WDFW doesn't see it that way, look at the situation everywhere that livestock are being eaten by wolves: Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Oregon, etc....
As stated on the radio, the ranchers have picked up numerous wolf scat filled with cattle hair.... :dunno: :chuckle: :bash:
I would have to check again, if there is, it would have to be confirmed kills, that means the rancher would have to scour the west side of GMU 105 for remains from 27 head of cattle and then try to get WDSFW or USFWS up there. To my knowledge, WDFW does not seem to want to take much responsibility in these matters.
West side of the 105, where the deer numbers seem to have plummeted in the last few years.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 28, 2011, 06:19:42 PM
and wolf poop with "cow hair" , not good enough to classify as "factual evidence" of a murdering rampage. Fire away boys, just stating the obvious. :chuckle: :chuckle:"
This last fall I found several areas that had Cattle hair in piles of scat. One area just east of the Mcgirvin place in part of their range. It was impossible to walk through the area with out stepping in it. All of it was full of hair and bone fragment's. What few bones were left had been broken like you hit them with a splitting maul. I spent some time looking for the kill site but never heard a crow or a sound.
McGirvins cowboy's will ride to round up the stock in weather that most of us won't even get out in. Usually it's a lone rider with a heeler dog. The other neighbor up the road that also Ranges cows pulls his stock out as by law, but seems there are always a few straggler's up there until the snow pushes them out of some of the holes.
Both of these folks have been in the cattle business for enough time they are well aquantied with what can happen.
Post by: mulehunter on December 28, 2011, 06:28:58 PM
Post by: huntnnw on December 31, 2011, 03:11:41 PM
Id be interested in knowing the numbers of the Phillips family cattle outta northport...there are wolves there and living right on their property. 5 at last count
That's probably the pack I lost track of, if we could solidfy the timing that a pack has been on the west side of 105 near McIrvins and when this pack was on Phillips, then we would know if there are likely two packs in 105. We have been thinking there are two packs, but I lost track of this pack you are saying has been on Phillips. Are they missing cattle too?
I dont know if they have lost any, but they run alot of cattle up there on alot of property and Natl forest close to the canadien line. I would venture to guess they have. Their cattle is on flagstaff alot and there was a pack up there during the summer and ealry part of fall that i know of for sure..my guess there is some loss
Post by: huntnnw on December 31, 2011, 03:17:16 PM
Post by: Yummy and Tasty Animal on December 31, 2011, 06:28:32 PM
Post by: Turner89 on December 31, 2011, 07:41:45 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 31, 2011, 07:44:24 PM
Does a breeding pair = a pack? Or can there be more than 1 breeding pair in a pack?
Wolf Social Structure
The social structure of a wolf pack is one of the most fascinating that has ever been observed. They have a very strict level of hierarchy that has to be adhered to by all of the members of the pack. This may sound harsh initially but it is a method that allows these packs of wolves to be able to survive.
The leader of the pack is the alpha male and his mate is the beta female. Many believe that the social order of a pack is determined by fear and dominance of the one in charge. However, it isn’t necessary established by an attack on one and the winner is the leader. It is much more complex than that. The lowest ranking individual in a pack is the omega.
Through careful research, experts have found that this type of social structure helps to promote unity and social order. It also helps to reduce conflicts and to lower the chances of aggressive behaviors occurring among the members of the pack. The upper level of social structure doesn’t change very often. However, it can quite a bit at the lower levels.
What is also interesting is that there are two separate hierarchies within any wolf pack. There is one for the males and one for the females to follow. All of the wolves in a pack have a job to do and a role to fulfill though. In fact, it is the strong bond on a physical and emotional level that allows these animals to stay together. Without a strong social structure in place they would want to go off on their own.
The fact that wolves are very social animals by nature is part of why this works. They long for the interaction with each other. They will spend a great deal of their time communicating both verbally and nonverbally with each other. While they do use sounds and body language to stand their ground, it is seldom that problems get to a physical level within a given wolf pack.
The exception to this is during mating season. Sometimes other males in the pack will try to fight the alpha male. They do so not so that they can lead the pack but so that they can have the right to mate with her. Some studies show that mating can occur with other members of the pack but mainly it is only the alpha male and beta female that will do so.
When you consider that a wolf pack can have many members, this type of social structure does make sense. It helps to ensure every single member is aware of what their role within that group really is. You may find it interesting to learn that the young pups often have a great deal of freedom and get lots of benefits. This is because they are the offspring of the highest ranking members of the wolf pack.
The home range of a pack of wolves can overlap with that of other wolves. As long as food is plentiful they will usually ignore each other and continue on their way. When food is scarce though they may battle to determine which pack has the right to feed there. The lower ranking wolves are the ones that will fight.
The overall social structure if a wolf pack doesn’t change very often towards the top of it. There will be times though when the leader will be challenged by others. The lack of habitat out there as well as food in some areas can also limit the overall growth of a given wolf pack.
Post by: Turner89 on December 31, 2011, 09:44:27 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2011, 10:07:11 PM
I know they pulled their cattle out a while back, they just had the big cattlemens meeting in Colville and went public with all this info. These people are the biggest cattle producers in the county, and Bill is an outdoorsman with some of the best hounds around, they know what they are doing in the mountains. I can remember years hearing they were upset over losing a few cattle to cougars and bear, they have never lost 27 head before that I have heard. Bill says there is wolf scat all over the place full of cattle hair. I trust he knows scat better than most WDFW employees.
Breeding Pair
To qualify as a breeding pair, a pair of wolves must mate and have at least two surviving pups at the end of the year for three years in a row. If they miss a year, the way I understand it, they don't count. Don't matter how many wolves are in an area, this is the critieria for a breeding pair.
The Catch
We are all dependent on the WDFW. This has to be proven by WDFW and at the rate they are trapping wolves we will probably have 100 actual bp's before they confirm 15 bp's for 3 years in a row. :twocents:
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 31, 2011, 10:14:13 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2011, 10:16:13 PM
Dale you left out. Pups must be born in the state of Washington and not Transient to count as well.
right on.... :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: Turner89 on December 31, 2011, 10:53:04 PM
McIrvinsThat is rediculous! If there is that much wolf activity in that area it would make sense to trail cam the sheet out of it. Like someone else had mentioned. If enough pictures were produced, and with the publicity from local media and local public officials it would (you think) force the WDF to pretend they care.
I know they pulled their cattle out a while back, they just had the big cattlemens meeting in Colville and went public with all this info. These people are the biggest cattle producers in the county, and Bill is an outdoorsman with some of the best hounds around, they know what they are doing in the mountains. I can remember years hearing they were upset over losing a few cattle to cougars and bear, they have never lost 27 head before that I have heard. Bill says there is wolf scat all over the place full of cattle hair. I trust he knows scat better than most WDFW employees.
Breeding Pair
To qualify as a breeding pair, a pair of wolves must mate and have at least two surviving pups at the end of the year for three years in a row. If they miss a year, the way I understand it, they don't count. Don't matter how many wolves are in an area, this is the critieria for a breeding pair.
The Catch
We are all dependent on the WDFW. This has to be proven by WDFW and at the rate they are trapping wolves we will probably have 100 actual bp's before they confirm 15 bp's for 3 years in a row. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2011, 11:12:09 PM