Post by: gutsnthegrass on January 30, 2012, 07:59:20 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 30, 2012, 12:28:24 PM
I had picked up a Traditions Vortec for Christmas and began to disassemble it to clean all the machining oils from it when I noticed that it just didnt seem like it was built very well. Cabela's took it back so now I am really looking at the Knight's. I have read many of the threads on here about the Bighorn and I have read that Sabotloader is a big Disc Extreme fan. After looking at there website, it looks like the only diference is in the action, is the Disc Extreme a little more sealed up from the elements, otherwise they appear to be very similiar. Is it really worth the extra $100?
Now you have to remember this is a totally biased opinion... but in my view there is whole different world avaialable to you with the Extreme vs. the Big Horn, and believe me I think the Big Horn is an excellent rifle.
The biggest reason I would strongly suggest an Extreme vs. the Big Horn is the versiltilty of the Extreme. Your shooting options are really expanded. Not only will the Extreme meet the strict requirements of the PAC Northwest states but it will allow you to hunt other places that allow a 209 scoped modern day muzzleloader. In my case I use it during the regular rifle season here in Idaho and do not feel undergunned at all, in fact I can not even tell you last time my 300 win mag or 270 have even seen the outdoors.
As you have already mentioned it is much better sealed against the elements, especialy if you get the correct #11 nipple and use #11 mag caps... but beyond that it is a much cleaner rifle - very little if any blow back material in the breech area. I also believe it is a much stronger rifle, you can safetly shoot 150 grain loose powder loads, not sure why you want to but you could, since the Extreme is a true bolt blow back will not for the hammer back as it can in a plunger gun.
Another item is safety, even shooting caps, flying parts from the caps or 209 primers are contained in the breech area. The hood on the bolt only allows a cap parts out the one side of the gun and 209 parts are contained in the breech plug...
OK I will quit - but remember I am baised...
mike
Post by: teanawayslayer on January 30, 2012, 12:47:36 PM
Post by: coyotewallace on January 30, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
I had picked up a Traditions Vortec for Christmas and began to disassemble it to clean all the machining oils from it when I noticed that it just didnt seem like it was built very well. Cabela's took it back so now I am really looking at the Knight's. I have read many of the threads on here about the Bighorn and I have read that Sabotloader is a big Disc Extreme fan. After looking at there website, it looks like the only diference is in the action, is the Disc Extreme a little more sealed up from the elements, otherwise they appear to be very similiar. Is it really worth the extra $100?
If you get over by the fairgrounds here in Puyallup....Shoot me a PM. I have a new Disc Extreme "CarbonKnight" Thumbhole with all the extras you can check out before you buy yourself one.
Post by: Bearhunter on January 30, 2012, 02:50:32 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 30, 2012, 03:03:35 PM
Excellent thread guys, thanks for the great info. I am in the market for a Knight as well and have been curious about the difference in the Disc extreme. So the Disc Extreme is considered a complete open breech for WA strict laws?
A DISC with a Western Kit installed is a legal ML rifle for Wash, Ore, and Idaho.
The western kit allows use of a cap (either #11 Mag or Musket) while meeting the exposed rule of the 3 states..
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=da3cd154ab3e2a545c4ac3ae735f9c99f5f1163b)
There is additional information in this thread...
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=75790.msg926548#msg926548
Post by: coyotewallace on January 30, 2012, 03:16:16 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight002.jpg&hash=13f7f42caecd3173af9a8d1c10232b4089343ca1)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight012.jpg&hash=633dcdc7424df6d240fb3258aef1d349df723e7d)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight013.jpg&hash=1dea6c96662ba54f7485d8cb871f0e49e3943634)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight014.jpg&hash=2587e7d8de7dc36c21df3492c0bd7a7c452f8c3f)
and now w/Peep for hunting Wa.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight008.jpg&hash=e09a12225cda66f8368a4b7e7c5fe4d56952cac2)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj253%2FCoyotewallace%2FKnight007.jpg&hash=d76f3b71cdf3e3ff46eb8a4ccbbcf057a58777ff)
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 30, 2012, 05:31:22 PM
Post by: Bearhunter on January 30, 2012, 08:13:45 PM
Post by: Tegantunadog on January 30, 2012, 09:01:45 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 30, 2012, 09:44:36 PM
Does anyone know if the Mountaineer will accept the NW kit to be legal in Washington? Dont really see the difference between it and the Disc Extreme other than the fluted barrel and all stainless...
At this point there is not a Western Kit for the Mountaineer...
Post by: teanawayslayer on January 31, 2012, 06:55:18 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2012, 10:44:06 AM
Hey sabotloader did you end up with the new disc?
I do have a Mountaineer, but not a new Extreme...
Quote
I see you had the ramp stile peep.
Must have been someone else - i do not have a ramp style peep... Coyotewallace has an interesting peep and base on his.
Quote
The other style doesn't work on the rear holes. It doesn't allow the bolt to open all the way. I put mine further up in front of the bolt. Which defeats the purpose of getting it closer to your eye. Do you know if Williams is going to change it up for it will work on the rear holes?
At this point I do not think Williams will do much about it until they are sure Knight is going to be around awhile... BUT...
I worked with someone else with this same concern and I THINK we worked it out to get the peep in the back scope mounts.
If you are willing to try an experiment or two give me a call. Also right now with your gun sighted in which elevation graduation is the pointer - pointing to? This makes a big difference... (Count the number of small graduation down from the top... like my MK is sighted in with the fixed pointer on the 5th elevation mark from the top... the mark just before the first long marker...
The Williams on my Big Horn is 9 marks down.. and if installed on a DISC the bolt handle would clear easily...
mike
208 882-4015
Post by: Wacenturion on January 31, 2012, 03:44:29 PM
Other than the nice looking carbon model on the disc, why would you want to spend the extra money. Basically same gun. :twocents:
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2012, 04:04:56 PM
Have to chime in. The Bighorn also allows for use in other states with the 209 system. Merely change out the breech plug. However don't know why one would want to. Deer don't know the difference. I have a couple Bighorns and a couple Wolverines and love em. Still use my 1970's T/C Renegade as well.
Other than the nice looking carbon model on the disc, why would you want to spend the extra money. Basically same gun. :twocents:
You can change breech plugs and shoot 209's but then because of the design of the Big Horn series stand a good chance of getting a part of the 209 primer flying out of the breech plug/breech area lauched as a missle.
The difference is using a 'plunger type action' vs. a sealed breech area.
This set of pictures shows what I am discussing...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2FMKBarePrimer.jpg&hash=1f1e94fd6c8c77f029f8ebe20d0b7fb7fe9a5b99)
One thing I really do agree with... if you are shooting an open breech plunger gun... The Bighorn also allows for use in other states with the 209 system. Merely change out the breech plug. However don't know why one would want to. It is a heck of a lot safer shooting caps than 209's in this style gun.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 31, 2012, 04:25:23 PM
The Wolverine is the same gun as the Bighorn except got barrel length stock etc., but everything interchanges between the two. I have not heard of any problems with them either.
But then again I haven't shot the 209 system in mine, so I really don't know.
Post by: moosedrool on January 31, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
Post by: Angus on January 31, 2012, 05:48:49 PM
As for the 150 grain issue, I have no plans of shooting that kind of load but a guy I work with has been for years with his Bighorn and never had an issue.
Really don't think $100 more will make the deer/elk I hunt any deader. :twocents:
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2012, 06:11:13 PM
That's interesting. Thanks for posting the photos. I do however have a hard time believing Knight who designed the Bighorn primarily as a 209 gun with breech changeability to make it legal out west, and not not the reverse, would keep selling the majority of them back east if that were a problem.
All plunger guns started life as a 'cap' gun, the only reason that MK-LK-and Big Horn have the option of 209 primers is because the public demanded it since they believed it was necessary. I believe they are aware of a small possible safety problem shooting 209's and really do push shooting caps in the open breech style plunger guns. In fact Knight would much rather sell Extremes than the Big Horn, but again the public believes they need the Big Horn, especially the PAC Northwest folks and they, Knight, needs a rifle to compete with the foreign imports in price in the other markets.
Quote
The Wolverine is the same gun as the Bighorn except got barrel length stock etc., but everything interchanges between the two. I have not heard of any problems with them either.
But then again I haven't shot the 209 system in mine, so I really don't know.
Correct on the Wolverine... and if you shoot lighter bullets and reduced loads of T7 the blow back pressure is not as significant. If you are shooting real BP (except Swiss) or the Pyro's the problem is not as prevelant either.
I personally now only shoot #11 mag caps from my MK - Wolverine - or Big Horn - as you have said that is really all you need and it is much safer.
I must also admit i was one of those folks that believed you you had to shoot 209's to be a real shooter... and I wanted the 209 conversion for that series of rifles - but today - older/wiser...
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2012, 06:13:49 PM
Mike, what would I need to shoot 209's out of my DISC Extreme? I currently have the western kit.
You will need to order from Knight another bolt housing and either a FPJ (full plastic jacket) breech plug or a NFPJ (non full plastic jacket - bare primer) breech plug.
If you talk to Robin @ Knight she will know exactly what you need...
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2012, 06:15:59 PM
I did alot of reading on various sites before buying my Bighorn and never heard anyone mention any shrapnel issue when using 209's in their BH's, not that I plan on using 209's.
As for the 150 grain issue, I have no plans of shooting that kind of load but a guy I work with has been for years with his Bighorn and never had an issue.
Really don't think $100 more will make the deer/elk I hunt any deader. :twocents:
Shooting lighter bullets and reduced powder loads - you will not see the problem created by heavy loads and heavy projectile...
Guess I would not consider a 150 grain load of anything other than real BP or Pyro - but even then i do not think it is needed.
Post by: Tim in Wa. on February 03, 2012, 06:04:04 AM
Tim
Post by: Sabotloader on February 03, 2012, 07:15:22 AM
Does the Bighorn have the same action as the old MK 85 ?I saw one of the MK85 s on a used gun rack yesterday. It looks like a well built gun but I was struck by how difficult it looked to remove the nipple. It looked like you needed an Alen wrench
Tim
My biased opinion only... I really like the MK reciever better... the Big Horn reviever is open on both sides and is better suited for the left hand shooter than is the MK. Both work great.
They are really simple to take apart or remove nipple and breech plug. The plunger just screws out and a wrench is insterted with to remove either the nipple or the BP or both..
Post by: gutsnthegrass on February 03, 2012, 07:46:44 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on February 03, 2012, 08:40:56 AM
Thanks everyone for the info, i'm new to the muzzeloader thing. This has all been great info, a couple more questions though, are they using the same barrels for the bighorn and the disc extreme? I am still trying to justify the extra $100. Have any of you noticed a difference in accuracy between the 2 guns? Thanks.
Same barrel on Bighorn and Disc Extreme....26" hand crafted barrel, 416 Stainless Steel, 1:26 twist on 50 caliber. Look at it this way....if you owned a company and wanted to maximize profits without sacrificing quality, then you would copy what Knight has done. Essentially their muzzle loaders appear to me anyway to be all the same basic design with modifications.
The Bighorn and Wolverine are essentially the same gun with the exception of barrel length and ignition system, however everything interchanges between those guns. I know as I have a couple of both. If I were hunting Blacktails I would opt for the Wolverine with it's shorter barrel. Whitetail or more so Mule deer I would use my Bighorn. Both however will work for any of those animals. It's knowing your weapon and it's limitations and shot placement at correct distances.
I don't know, but it would not surprise me if the Bighorn and Disc Extreme are somewhat equally similar. The following photos are from Knight's website. Obviously the picture is the same and verified by the serial number. Funny thery use the same photo for both models. Hmmmmm :chuckle:
Disc Extreme......from Knight's website
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi98.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl241%2FSS30ANV%2Ffpj-breech.jpg&hash=0a47341efa020696f51d36bb99e178ea8d0c5e72)
Bighorn...........from Knight's web site
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi98.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl241%2FSS30ANV%2Fbighorn.jpg&hash=1ccd15211d4879006813162cc09b325e1d2c9cb4)
There is a difference in the guns however....bolt type on the disc vs. plunger type on the Bighorn/Wolverine. Just wonder if that assembly can be swapped if you have both in hand. Probably not as the stocks appear different, primarily to accept bolt turn down. In conclusion.....it appears with the exception of that feature, guns are the same. :twocents:
Disc Extreme
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi98.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl241%2FSS30ANV%2FMDE706SCK-26SCK-2.jpg&hash=70cea0acfcd436243b6c2b30b9759fc15e9c48cf)
Bighorn
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi98.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl241%2FSS30ANV%2Fbighorn1.jpg&hash=2ecdf31010e371c6fa73824552baa46ae70e7784)
Post by: Sabotloader on February 03, 2012, 09:28:51 AM
Thanks everyone for the info, i'm new to the muzzeloader thing. This has all been great info, a couple more questions though, are they using the same barrels for the bighorn and the disc extreme? I am still trying to justify the extra $100. Have any of you noticed a difference in accuracy between the 2 guns? Thanks.
In a Knight the barrels ands reciever are not separate. The barreld action is all one piece.
The metal used and the machinery used to produce one barreled action are the same other then the program that dictates how the reciever of each is built.
The real difference in the two is the Reciever. One is a large open breech reciever the other is more closed and less exposed.
Wacenturion last post has a couple of small errors... the twist rate on a 50 cal Knight is 1-28 not 1-26, althought the Knight 52 cal is 1-26.
Also the picture he posted of the Big Horn reciever area from the Knight web site is incorrect. Both of those pictures are the DISC Extreme. The picture on the web site is incorrect - not his fault.
This is the reciever-breeh area of an extreme with a Western Kit BP and musket nipple installed.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FMusketcap-pg1-1.jpg&hash=cd71e193695c483e285b9c7212476f60dd3e3ec0)
Here is a picture with the bolt installed and a #11 cap on the nipple...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=da3cd154ab3e2a545c4ac3ae735f9c99f5f1163b)
I just do not have a good picture of the reciever opening of a Big Horn, you might be able to tell something from this...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FStockSwap.jpg&hash=cf6db45ecf67b7d78fc45832460c8bea70c21270)
or this Big Horn but it is a bad angle...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F69BigHorn.jpg&hash=d864d7a233a30fc04053bfccab1537fbf3032e29)
Well Shoot! Wacenturion last picture shows the Big Horn breech area real well. Just remember that picture shows the plunger (hammer) closed! while hunting you are likely to have the plunger pulled back and then the entire breech area is exposed to the weather elements + mother natures dropping needles, leaves, and etc. I hate dropping larch needles they fill everything... but maybe you do not have larch/tamarack where you hunt.
But, back to your basic question... There would be very little difference in accuracy between the two. The real difference is the amount of exposure to the elements while hunting if that is a concern... Here in Idaho it is a big concern for me - our weather is lousy a lot of the times.
Post by: Wacenturion on February 03, 2012, 09:59:10 AM
One last comment. I prefer and use the German musket caps, and have never had a problem with ignition on my T/C Renegade or my Knight Bighorns or Wolverines. They fit tight keeping moisture out of the nipple, are hotter than most other caps and always deliver.
Can't go wrong with either gun. Is it worth the extra cost. Perhaps based on looks, functionality, resale, etc. Not that the Bighorn is less of a gun, it's just if the extra cost is that big a deal or not. If it's not and you like the features and looks of the Disc Extreme better, then by all means, go for it.
Post by: Sabotloader on February 03, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
Thanks for correcting that. It was a typo. I meant to put 1:28. You are also correct in that the barrel and action are one piece. Guess I was in my mind reverting back to my T/C .54 Renegade, where the barrel with nipple is separate from the side plate and hammer. My bad....lol. :chuckle:
One last comment. I prefer and use the German musket caps, and have never had a problem with ignition on my T/C Renegade or my Knight Bighorns or Wolverines. They fit tight keeping moisture out of the nipple, are hotter than most other caps and always deliver.
Can't go wrong with either gun. Is it worth the extra cost. Perhaps based on looks, functionality, resale, etc. Not that the Bighorn is less of a gun, it's just if the extra cost is that big a deal or not. If it's not and you like the features and looks of the Disc Extreme better, then by all means, go for it.
That is really the key point...
Post by: BiggLuke on February 03, 2012, 12:21:31 PM
I vote Bighorn.
Post by: Bearhunter on February 03, 2012, 09:41:19 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 04, 2012, 07:43:31 AM
Hey Sabotloader, what do you think about the Traditions Northwest Ultralight? Held one today it seemed like a well built gun and super light with a 28" barrel. I dont like all the plastic trigger guards, but I guess plastic is much more shock or drop resistant. Whats you opinion on this gun? Thanks in advance!
Bearhunter, can not really help you a lot... I have 0 experiance with Traditions of any sort, so I am at a loss.
Post by: Wacenturion on February 04, 2012, 12:29:43 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=78581.0
Post by: gutsnthegrass on February 04, 2012, 01:43:57 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 04, 2012, 02:48:33 PM
Well, I did it, I ordered the Disc extreme last night. Hopefully I will be happy with it. Bearhunter, I returned the Traditions that you're asking about, when I field stripped it to clean the machining oils off of it, it just didn't seem like it was built that well to me. I never shot it, so I cant comment on how it shoots but I have heard people either really like it or they hate it.
I really think you will like it... Where are you located? Might contact BOOM on this forum, he is in the Yakima area and has 3 or 4 of the Extremes with Western Kits installed.
I get over to the Tri-cites- Benton City area a lot - got a spot over there to shoot also.
Post by: bear hunter on February 09, 2012, 11:44:24 AM
I did alot of reading on various sites before buying my Bighorn and never heard anyone mention any shrapnel issue when using 209's in their BH'sI have used the 209 with caps on my TK2000 for grouse and pheasant works great,but wear saftey glasses the plastic disc some times blows apart and a peice fell in my eye. I switched it to musket cap for deer. I have two the Bighorn with thumb hole stock and the 12g TK2000 Love them. I used the 12g on deer this year worked great.
Post by: gutsnthegrass on February 17, 2012, 07:28:57 AM
Post by: Big Horn on February 17, 2012, 09:39:22 PM
Post by: HoofsandWings on February 18, 2012, 10:49:44 AM
I can swap between caps and 209 in 5 minutes or less.
I have to change my point of aim some, but if you go back and forth a few times, you will get the hang of it.
I think you can get one of those scope base plates where you can add the scope in seconds and do need to re-sight it in.
Post by: threedwizard on February 25, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
Post by: justgetoutthere on March 14, 2012, 08:02:28 PM
Post by: BOOM!! on March 14, 2012, 10:36:36 PM
I, too want to get in the ML game this year. You guys have me onboard with the Disc Extreme. Any thoughts on the .52 from Knight over the .50? This [http://www.chuckhawks.com/knight_52_caliber.htm] article on Chuck Hawks has me intrigued.
Relax Sabotloader, I've got this one. :tup:
The .50 gives you many more options for loads as it is the most popular caliber. The .52 gives you very few options and most of which available is from Knight. The bloodlines are one of the best bullets out there, spendy though. Both are great guns. If you like to be a little different go with the .52, you wont be disappointed.
Post by: Sabotloader on March 15, 2012, 06:56:36 AM
I, too want to get in the ML game this year. You guys have me onboard with the Disc Extreme. Any thoughts on the .52 from Knight over the .50? This [http://www.chuckhawks.com/knight_52_caliber.htm] article on Chuck Hawks has me intrigued.
Relax Sabotloader, I've got this one. :tup:
The .50 gives you many more options for loads as it is the most popular caliber. The .52 gives you very few options and most of which available is from Knight. The bloodlines are one of the best bullets out there, spendy though. Both are great guns. If you like to be a little different go with the .52, you wont be disappointed.
yep! :tup: :tup:
Post by: hunting4sanity on March 28, 2012, 11:06:15 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on March 29, 2012, 07:51:46 AM
Where is the best place to buy the Knights? I see they are on their own website, but wondered if there is an on-line store with better deals or somewhere around Tri Cities?
Wholesale Sports in Kennewick has them but they only have Big Horns. I am not sure that they would be able to get you a DISC Extreme if that is what you might be after.
Online... Sportsmansguide carries them as well as some others.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/search/eSearch.aspx?SearchTerms=Knight%20rifles&eMode=