Post by: BIGINNER on February 07, 2012, 07:06:49 AM
Post by: dreamunelk on February 07, 2012, 07:22:54 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 07:23:42 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2012, 07:25:58 AM
Post by: BIGINNER on February 07, 2012, 07:32:40 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2012, 07:35:54 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 09:39:29 AM
For fetch teaches momentum. Momentum in training can be actual speed and it can be an actual attitude about doing the job. I dog which does not retrieve reliably 100% of the time will fail you at some point. Once the dog fails you once, it learns it can fail you as often as he chooses. Then, giving you the correct response hunting becomes an option for the dog rather than a requirement.
I help out with dog rescue and have since I lived in Eburg in 2000. I don't do a lot but, when needed I do what I can. I've never seen a forced fetch dog show up in a rescue shelter. I've never seen a FF'd dog given away to a family because it doesn't hunt. I've never seen a FF'd dog given away because it won't retrieve a duck.
My response to the question?
I would not own a retriever or pointer that was not Force Fetched.
Post by: Cascade_fisher on February 07, 2012, 10:06:42 AM
Post by: goosegetter79 on February 07, 2012, 10:31:57 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 10:36:33 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 10:41:33 AM
:yeah: same here! Not every dog needs to be force fetch trained! That's a pretty broad assumption to think very dog needs it.
Depends on your standards. If your dog doesn't see a bird fall across a pond into high cattails do you leave it to rot? Or, do you send your dog on a back and handle it to the bird?
To me, being responsible duck hunting means you pick up everything you shoot. Even if it costs you flaring ducks that would have come in because you're handling your dog to a bird or the dog is on a long swim.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 10:43:19 AM
The other consideration is that along with FF will come collar conditioning. At the same time, you are teaching the dog what the e-collar means. And again, we revert back to dealing with pressure. Properly done, FF and collar conditioning teaches a dog the right response for a correction.
It kills me when people strap and e-collar on a dog and thing that is all they need to do for results. It is unfair to the dog and might help you say no but, an e-collar should not be used that way.
Post by: rtspring on February 07, 2012, 10:49:14 AM
And the comment about a dog that isn't F/F not retrieving birds? I beg to differ with your opionion on the subject.
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 10:52:27 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 10:53:21 AM
F/F is not in any way a requirement for a dog. I have trained two of them with out F/F. It can be done and is done alot...
And the comment about a dog that isn't F/F not retrieving birds? I beg to differ with your opionion on the subject.
Some dogs have a natural mouth and will retrieve. But, do they handle or are you throwing rocks in the direction you want your dog to go?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 10:54:47 AM
I've never let a bird lie to ot simply because my dog didn't mark it! But my dog regulary makes invisible retrieves and has never been force fetch trained! He knows how to hunt back and left to right! Never had a problem.
If I put a bird out at 200 yards in the cat-tails with a 150 yard swim you're telling me you can walk up and your dog will handle to the bird?
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 11:08:56 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 11:10:09 AM
200 yards? Jesus! What kindof duck hunter are you? Sky bust much? My gun is only good to about 50 yards bud! And I've worked to about 100 yards or so! No need to go any farther!
Ok, you win. Your dog is better and you are a better duck hunter than me.
Post by: rtspring on February 07, 2012, 11:13:34 AM
good luck hunting,
PS, I will ddamn near die before I leavea downed bird to rot.. See the goose story I put up on this site.. Three days I looked for the damn thing.....
RTSPRING
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 11:23:04 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
I knew this one was gonna turn ugly.. To each is his own. I was just stating I never had to F/F a dog and I have had two that I would run up against any dog out there. Sure there could be a circumstance where a 200 yard retireve is needed. But I can still get the job done without F/F my dogs...
good luck hunting,
PS, I will ddamn near die before I leavea downed bird to rot.. See the goose story I put up on this site.. Three days I looked for the damn thing.....
RTSPRING
I tried to keep it to my opinion but, that is difficult sometimes. I would say there are some natural retrievers and some people have had good success not FFing their dogs and training via the Robert Milner materials which is actually decent for a good duck dog.
http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/gundogs.php
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 11:33:01 AM
Not saying I'm better or my dog is better, but Ive never had a need for that extreme of a retrieve out of my dog!
I started training dogs because of that need. Hunting on the Columbia at Wallula, Finley, John Day and up at Bridgeport Brewster. All big water and good current. By the time a dog picks up one bird, your second bird is long gone. Puts demands on the dog to make long retrieves. It only gets harder with the more hunters dropping more ducks.
Not to mention, cripples that lock up and glide out. I'm not a perfect shot by any means and wing birds. I'm no sky buster. Most of the time I hunt my lease so, I have no reason to sky bust.
Post by: JLS on February 07, 2012, 11:42:17 AM
I didn't do it with my dog, and wish that I had.
Post by: hillbillyhunting on February 07, 2012, 12:12:56 PM
THanks in advance for filling me in...
Post by: BIGINNER on February 07, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
one more question to add on to my original one: should I forcefetch my dog or am i better off not force fetching him myself?
Post by: CP on February 07, 2012, 12:20:27 PM
i'll let someone else answer your question because i won't do as good of a job,..
one more question to add on to my original one: should I forcefetch my dog or am i better off not force fetching him myself?
Don’t do it yourself, it’s a job for a professional.
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 07, 2012, 12:21:10 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 12:38:51 PM
I dont want to thread jack, but what is force fetch. I am interested because I rescued a lab the vet told me was about 3 yrs old. He had no manners. I had to teach him the word "no". :bash: He loves to retrieve over water, but will only go pounce on the object when on land. Also, when he retrieves over water he usually drops the object at the shoreline.
THanks in advance for filling me in...
Three years old makes it a bit (sometimes a lot)more difficult. It is best done right after they get the adult teeth in 100% and are not showing any signs of soreness in their mouth. If you can teach the dog to hold by placing something in his mouth, keeping his mouth closed around it...repeat for 5-10 minutes 2X a day and get to the point where he will hold the object and walk around on lead I say you can probably FF him. It is the common "fix" for lack of better terms for the problems you've described.
The basic concept is that once you've taught hold you then introduce pressure to him via uncomfortable stimulation. This can be a e-collar for some, pinching an ear, pulling on a toe with a string hitch. The command "fetch" is given and when the dog has the object(dowel or bumper) in his mouth you stop the stimulation. Sometimes it is a real bear, other dogs get it real easy. Some dogs take little stimulation, others take a lot. This is where reading the dog comes into play and why it's a good idea to always do it the first time with a pro.(if you want to do it yourself at least have someone walk you through it and be on hand)
It isn't a torture chamber when done correctly. It is you and the dog coming to the mutual understanding that you make the rules, you enforce the rules and you also distribute the praise for a job well done.
FF is just another tool in the bigger picture of making a reliable retriever. 99% of all Professional retriever trainers will agree that without a solid FF foundation, you'll really have many, many more difficulties advancing your training in other areas. I do not personally know ANY professional retriever trainers who do not FF every single dog who comes in for training. 99% of the time, the first thing they'll do is get the dog accostomed to the kennel routine and then it's time for the most unpleasant part of a retrievers life. A week or two of FF.
Post by: Lee Root on February 07, 2012, 06:23:48 PM
Force fetch also means that wing tipped chukars such as this one was are returned to me even if they have sailed and run down the nastiest rock filled hillside as this one did. Usually Addy sits, but this time she got away with a rest and is lying down on the retrieve since this bird came back to me after one such long retrieve.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa171%2Fvomokanogan%2FP1060842.jpg&hash=3969fd64e5c1aa4c41f44badabd573df32307eee)
Bottom line is that the retrieve of upland game and waterfowl should be as important as the work the dog does before the shot. I like a retrieve with manners on my dogs and I do it with the force fetch. My dogs have frequently brought back game to me that I have never shot that was left by other hunters.
Post by: Shannon on February 07, 2012, 10:00:31 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 07, 2012, 10:40:42 PM
Post by: scudmaster on February 07, 2012, 11:02:58 PM
Post by: JJD on February 08, 2012, 09:00:53 AM
200 yards? Jesus! What kindof duck hunter are you? Sky bust much? My gun is only good to about 50 yards bud! And I've worked to about 100 yards or so! No need to go any farther!
Foulweather25
What ?????? You sure have come to some strange conclusions. What are they based on?
others;
Whether to FF (force fetch) or not depends on where you want to take your dog in training. If you are happy with very basic retriever work, then it may not be worth the time or $ you put in to it. The lion’s share of pro trainers FF because they want results as quickly as possible, it’s what they are paid to do. FF is a means to that end.
Picking up whatever you tell your dog to pick up is simply a side effect of FF, not its primary goal. Its main goal is to take a dog from retrieving being just a game, to retrieving being a serious job. If done properly, with care, most dogs entire attitude will change and training in general will be easier and more enjoyable. Dog’s most often take instruction better and are more attentive, ie; they listen. In conditions I hunt in, having my dogs follow instruction may be a matter of life or death. My dogs have never lost any desire to retrieve as a result of FF. As a matter of fact, it intensifies.
FF’ing dogs as soon as their permanent teeth are in is much easier than FF’ing an older dog. If "you" are going to do it, do it when dog is young. If this is not possible, a pro trainer might be the better choice. As well, if you should decide to have a pro do it, younger will likely take less time and will be cheaper.
Understand what you are doing before you attempt it or it will become an exercise in frustration for both you and your dog. This is true for all training. There are a number of excellent training books out there. Do some honest soul searching, are you a patient person or do you have a bit of a temper? If you tend to get frustrated, a pro might be a better choice.
If you want Test / Trial titles on your dog’s name for breeding purposes, then I believe FF is essential.
I have FF a fair number of dogs and hunted over both FF and non FF dogs. I am NOT a pro trainer, nor do I have any aspirations of becoming one.
Wind at your back . . .
JJD
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 10:13:59 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 10:29:15 AM
You "train" for much more difficult scenarios than what you are expected to encounter when pursuing your given goal. If you shoot archery, you go to a 3-d shoot and shoot the smoker round because it is not only fun but, challenges you to bring your game up a level.
When you train a dog, you might run 200-300 yard blinds every time because when you go hunting, you want your dog to be "UNDERWEALMED". Meaning the 100 yard retrieves are done swiftly and efficiently without any delay. If you only train 100 yard blinds and you go hunting, you'll likely have problems because of all the added "factors" which come into play. Multiple shots, drag back scent, wind, terrain, currents, etc, etc.
Fowl- I've gone back and read just about all your posts and you just seem like you're condecending, you ask a question, you don't like the answer so you pick and moan and come across as just a generally rude person. Comments in your posts about yuppy hunters etc, etc..... who are you directing those at? Us here who are having a pretty good conversation until you continue to try and sidetrack it?
You've shown in your posts how you feel about breeding, folks disagree, share some experience and knowledge and you just seem to get mad...... What's up? what is bothering you? Does it bother you a lot of folks do more testing before they breed dogs? Does it bother you that folks force fetch their dogs and get good results? I don't get it with you and what your beef is with being so snippy with everyone?
Post by: Special T on February 08, 2012, 10:46:35 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 10:50:24 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 11:02:33 AM
I was the one who was condescended in the thread about me breeding my dog! Go back and read it again, this thread by calling my conclusions strange, all I did was give my opinion on force fetch training. you asked me I'd leave a bird to rot, insinuating that not only am I an unethical dog owner but now I'm an unethical hunter as well! So basically now you're judging me as a bad person because I asked an opinion on doing something that you whole heartedly disagree with! Aren't you the one who brought my dog up again in a condescending manner in my thread about a vasectomy? Hmmmm, but I'm the condescending one? I'm not trying to be rude but don't talk down to me because you don't agree with my opinion! It pisses me off! And don't call me condescending when you've been the same way! It's called Hipocracy!
when you make statements like you've made regarding "not caring" about breeding, call people yuppie hunters etc. etc. I think more than a couple people see you're lighting your own match stuck in the toe of your boot.
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 11:18:27 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 11:23:22 AM
Post by: JLS on February 08, 2012, 11:36:27 AM
My concern with breeding my dog twice was not to become a puppy mill and have a large scale effect on the breed! My concern was to pass on my dogs amazing abilities! Without even knowing me I was called a lowly backyard breeder! You know what think what you want about me! Ill continue to breed my illigitimate dog and ruin the breed! And I'm not gonna force fetch train my dogs! Do you not strike back when someon offends you? I get pissed that people on this site get butthurt because some one has an opinion that differs from theirs! However when someone's opinion turns into puttin someone down, guess what I'm gonna fire back! Have a good day Happy Gilmore! I'm done with ya!
If you're going to pass on your dogs amazing abilities, please test him to ensure you don't pass on any amazing genetic diseases. One of my best friends is a "breeder" and had a litter of pups where several went blind at 4-6 months. He is too cheap to pay for thorough testing. I would never buy a dog from him.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 11:43:15 AM
My concern with breeding my dog twice was not to become a puppy mill and have a large scale effect on the breed! My concern was to pass on my dogs amazing abilities! Without even knowing me I was called a lowly backyard breeder! You know what think what you want about me! Ill continue to breed my illigitimate dog and ruin the breed! And I'm not gonna force fetch train my dogs! Do you not strike back when someon offends you? I get pissed that people on this site get butthurt because some one has an opinion that differs from theirs! However when someone's opinion turns into puttin someone down, guess what I'm gonna fire back! Have a good day Happy Gilmore! I'm done with ya!
If you're going to pass on your dogs amazing abilities, please test him to ensure you don't pass on any amazing genetic diseases. One of my best friends is a "breeder" and had a litter of pups where several went blind at 4-6 months. He is too cheap to pay for thorough testing. I would never buy a dog from him.
Quotes......One quote per reply.
"I don't give two craps about improving the breed! One breeder isn't gonna do that"
" I guess a lot of people pay more for the name"
"but I'm not one of them and if you knew anything about sunny view kennels you would know they produce champion dogs!"
"I understand that OFA is a minimum that being said it's better than nothing."
"The female that we bred him to belongs to our very good friends. So as far as she goes we were set."
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 11:57:01 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 11:59:08 AM
Post by: Special T on February 08, 2012, 12:02:11 PM
Are there dogs that hunt good with no FF training? Yes
Do most dogs do what YOU want them to do with out it? Sometimes...
If you want a mediocre hunting dog, thats ok, its still much better than no dog... Some people have learned to enjoy watching the dogs work, and higher levels of training are part of the hunt. My dog will not do what Happies will, and i'm ok with that.
No need to get bent. :twocents:
Post by: Fowlweather25 on February 08, 2012, 12:27:49 PM
Post by: Hornseeker on February 08, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
Force fetch is a method of training a dog to fetch or retrieve something...whether its in there sight or not. Its making them bring the bird/dummy/tennis ball/stick TO YOU. None of my dogs ever needed to be "FF'd"... but they did need to be trained to blind retrieve.
If this was discussed in pages 2-4, sorry... came on late and dont have time to read everything!
:tup:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Agreed, sorry happy, I enjoy my dog the way he is but I've seen force fetch work very well with other dogs! My only real opinion I guess is that if you've never force fetch trained your dog have a pro do it the first time and try to learn from it. :twocents:
No problem- sorry as well. I'm not trying to convince you- as I've mentioned...it's just another tool.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 01:37:30 PM
I dont have time to read the whole thread, but there is a big difference between Force Fetch and what you are describing Happy... what you are describing is a Blind Retrieve. My lab was flawless at it (well, as flawless as a dog could be)... and my 1 year old springer is doing well with it, but needs more work.
Force fetch is a method of training a dog to fetch or retrieve something...whether its in there sight or not. Its making them bring the bird/dummy/tennis ball/stick TO YOU. None of my dogs ever needed to be "FF'd"... but they did need to be trained to blind retrieve.
If this was discussed in pages 2-4, sorry... came on late and dont have time to read everything!
:tup:
If you have any type of flow chart in your training(for a retriever) you will first, force fetch. When you start blind retrieves you do sight blinds. from sight blinds, you'll likely force to pile(FTP) Force to pile carries with it the requirement of being force fetched. FTP has the same requirement of when you are simply FFing your dog on the ground exept now, the dog is required to "reach out" to the pile. Getting the dog moving and snapping up the bumper off the ground.
FFing a retriever basically makes the blind retrieve. THere are other less effective ways although, the most well known is starting with FF and then FTP. This allows you to run tough blinds. A blind retrieve for a pointer will typically involve "out" and "hunt"..... It really isn't a blind by retriever people standards. On a retriever blind, there is not any hunt, no following the nose until given the ok to do so.....(this is where it is fun to see a mechanical dog start thinking when hunting over them when it is time for the real deal)
Force fetch is about SO much more than carrying a stick or an object to you.....Force fetch first of all teaches a dog to cope with pressure. Pressure in training the dog will have on it the rest of it's career. This can be as simple as a bird that falls in the middle of a sticker bush. The dog must drive in and retrieve the bird. It isn't something all dogs have the guts to do. When you FF a dog, it isn't a matter of drive or interest. It is a requirement to get in and get that bird. Has nothing to do with holding an object. It changes the whole mentality of what the dogs' purpose is, job and requirements.
Post by: Hornseeker on February 08, 2012, 02:00:29 PM
I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.
I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!
PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 08, 2012, 03:56:25 PM
That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.
I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.
I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!
PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!
With the springers I've been around....you have to be very, very careful FF them...... Earlier comments about how FF can ruin a dog couldn't be more true with springers and Brittany's. They can be real goofy little sensitive dogs but, still maintain a toughness through it...
Post by: scudmaster on February 08, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
If you have not done it, and you think it will "break" a dog, Don't do it. You probably will break the dog as you need to have the confidence in yourself to stay calm and PATIENCE with your dog to do it right. I started with my second dog, before he was ready, so I gave up and went back to it a couple months later and he was ready. Both dogs only took a few short sessions before they got it.
As Happy so aptly explained, it is the foundation of advanced training and my dogs flourished after FF.
Post by: jetjockey on February 09, 2012, 07:42:45 AM
That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.
I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.
I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!
PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!
With the springers I've been around....you have to be very, very careful FF them...... Earlier comments about how FF can ruin a dog couldn't be more true with springers and Brittany's. They can be real goofy little sensitive dogs but, still maintain a toughness through it...
From what Ive seen with the few springers Ive been around, and lots of brittanys, 90% of them don't need to be FF'ed. But the ones who have, have taken to it nicely without any worry of ruining the dog. I think too many people confuse sensitive with soft. Many brits are sensitive, Ive seen few that were soft. Because of that, its easy to train them.. My 3.5 year old brit showed no desire to retrieve. When Id send her out for a dead bird, she would find it, mouth it a little, put it down and then move on. I was considering having her FF'ed because she showed little interest in the retrieve. But I kept after it, then one day she brought a bird back to me and dropped it at my feet. Thats all it took. I praised the hell out of her and she brought back every single bird the rest of that hunt. When I got her home I worked with her to fetch her toys in the house. I made it a game and gave her treats when she brought them too me. Then I taught her "hold". It took all of 10 minutes to teach her "hold", and she already knew "give" (lots of returned shoes and socks when she was young. :chuckle:). The next day I combined fetch, hold, and give while still playing in the house. It took maybe 1 hour of house work, and a small bag of treats for her to get it. On our next hunt I took her out and she retrieved every bird I allowed her to retrieve, right to my hand. Now, she probably won't do a 200 yard blind retrieve, and Ive never tried to have her retrieve a duck that she didn't point. But she picked up blind retrieves pretty easily as well, even though I don't like to let her retrieve birds that she didn't see fall. For most brittanys, and the springers that don't trial, most of them don't need to be FF'ed. But, it is a great tool and teaches a lot more then just retrieving. In the pointing dog field trial world the American Field All Age Nationals that gets held at Ames plantation every year in TN is the pinnacle of Field Trialing for pointing dogs. The winningest trainer in history at Ames won it 11 times, and he FF'd every single one of his english pointers, even though the never retrieved a bird in a trial. That should tell you something.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2012, 08:38:15 AM
FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.
Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....
Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?
Post by: jetjockey on February 09, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
As I mentioned umpteen pages back..
FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.
Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....
Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?
Actually, the trainer who FF'd all his dogs was before the days of e-collars. But he did use it as a foundation to increase confidence in the dog, and the relationship between the trainer and the dog. Not sure he would have done it in todays world of e-collars. In the pointing dog world there is a fine line between style, and the anticipation of the retrieve. Many pro's out here don't let their dogs retrieve because it can diminish the dogs style when the bird is flushed. But for a hunting dog, where most people don't care about style, then I fully agree, a fully finished dog that retrieves is what somebody would want. I don't believe there would be any way to get a retriever to the level it needs to be in competition without FF. You can do it in the pointing dog world where dogs aren't required to make 100+ yard blind retrieves.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2012, 09:45:08 AM
As I mentioned umpteen pages back..
FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.
Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....
Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?
Actually, the trainer who FF'd all his dogs was before the days of e-collars. But he did use it as a foundation to increase confidence in the dog, and the relationship between the trainer and the dog. Not sure he would have done it in todays world of e-collars. In the pointing dog world there is a fine line between style, and the anticipation of the retrieve. Many pro's out here don't let their dogs retrieve because it can diminish the dogs style when the bird is flushed. But for a hunting dog, where most people don't care about style, then I fully agree, a fully finished dog that retrieves is what somebody would want. I don't believe there would be any way to get a retriever to the level it needs to be in competition without FF. You can do it in the pointing dog world where dogs aren't required to make 100+ yard blind retrieves.
You're also in the field trial pro world where you don't have to retrieve a bird. Field trial pointers are a much less finished dog than a person who hunts their dog and runs hunt tests.
And- every single trainer pre-collar force broke their dog because they were required to retrieve shot birds. Depends on how old your FT pro is if they'd remember it. My friend won the National in Canada and US pre-1960. He then became a retriever trainer and won the Retriever National FT just a few years later.
Post by: jetjockey on February 09, 2012, 11:58:18 AM
Post by: st8uppointers on February 09, 2012, 01:40:00 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2012, 02:29:09 PM
In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve. For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something. You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have. As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title. Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see. I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.
I dog that doesn't point then, retrieve shot game just isn't finished in my opinion. You are required to win a single retrieving stake in the dogs' field career although, my understanding is that it is just a single time and never required again.
At the AKC hunt test senior hunter and master hunter level, each bird shot over the dog in the bird field must be retrieved to hand. In addition to being steady to shot. I am also talking about AKC Pointer Field trials regarding past rules.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2012, 02:38:22 PM
In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve. For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something. You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have. As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title. Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see. I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.
Are you running any local AKC pointer field trials or AKC pointer hunt tests? There are about 7 AKC hunt tests in Fall City this spring, some AKC walking field trials south and an AKC field trial spring over in SUnnyside. I'll be there planting birds on horseback. Be fun to see some faces from here running their dogs in the FT or HT..
Post by: RC3 on February 09, 2012, 08:36:32 PM
And Yes I agree with Happy Force Fetch is a must in my opinion, although I don't start my dog on the collar with FF I use the kennel command they already know and go from there but your way could be better I'm not going to say I know as much about FF as you so I'm not going to say my way is better just the way I started:)
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 05:55:39 AM
I dog that doesn't point then, retrieve shot game just isn't finished in my opinion. You are required to win a single retrieving stake in the dogs' field career although, my understanding is that it is just a single time and never required again.
At the AKC hunt test senior hunter and master hunter level, each bird shot over the dog in the bird field must be retrieved to hand. In addition to being steady to shot. I am also talking about AKC Pointer Field trials regarding past rules.
You have to be careful when talking about trials, because they are all a little different. Horsebacak trials began in the south. Back then hunters hunted quail off horses on large plantations. They also had a mule drawn carriages with them that had cockers, springers, labs, and other flushing breeds. The pointing dogs (which were always EP's or ES's) would find the birds. Once they were on point, the handlers released the flushing breeds to flush, and retrieve all dead birds. The pointing dogs were required to be steady through the entire flush and retrieve. Thats why American Field trials are run off hores, no retrieving is required, and dogs are required to be 100% steady.
In American Field, dogs are also not crowned Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion, like they are in AKC. In AF you either win, get runner up, or get nothing. In AF dogs are Champions, or RU Champions, and they put the number of wins or RU's before the title. For instance, my dog ran in a dual sanctioned AKC/AF Championship trial last weekend (in the brittany and GSP world its not uncommon to have both body's sanction a championship trial) and she took runner up. She was already an AKC Field Champion, but now she is a 1xAmField Runner up Champion as well. The rules of the trial are basically the same, but the way AKC and AF title dogs is different. There are a lot of AKC FC's out there that are not very good dogs. A dog can win an AKC FC running only 30 minute weekend stakes against horrible competition to achieve its FC. However, if a dog has an American Field Championship in its name, it says a LOT more about the dog. AmField Championships are 1 hour trials or better. You are going to have a lot higher level of dogs running because they are championships, and people want the American Field title in front of the dogs name. For the most part, and broke AKC pointing dog can win its FC if you chose the right trials, winning a AmField title is a heck of a lot harder....... In the real English Pointer and English Setter world, they run American Field, and not American Kennel Club. So those dogs, will never become Field Champions, only Champions. American Field is considered that pinnacle of the field trial world, and the AF Nationals thats held at Ames Plantation every February is considered the #1 National to win in the pointing dog world. However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames. Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames. Because of that, it makes it even more impressive that the winningest handler at Ames FF'd all his dogs, when they were never required to retrieve.
In the AKC trial world, things are a little different. All the versatiles are required to win a retrieving stake in order to achieve their FC's. Brittanys however are the one exception, they aren't required to retrieve, but they have to win a 3 point major. Obviously it varies from breed to breed how to obtain a FC title in the AKC world. Many of the trials held for GSP, V's, Weims, etc have retrieving stakes. A dog is only required to win 1, but they will run in a lot of retrieving stakes. Thats why the AKC Gun Dog Nationals typically has a retrieving, and non-retrieving National. Thats also one of the reasons GSP's and Brit tend to dominate the AKC GD Nationals, and the EP's and ES's dominate the AF Nationals. You can even break it down more and say that Brits and GSP's seem to dominate the non-retrieving stake, while GSP's tend to dominate the retrieving stake, with brits coming in a distant second.. You don't see many EP's or ES's because most of them are running in American Field, which by many people, is considered a much higher level of competition. But make no mistake about it, in the AKC world, most all of the versatiles are going to be fully finished dogs that retrieve, and many of the brittanys are as well, even though they aren't required to be.
I agree with you Happy that for a dog to be truely finished, it needs to retrieve. But you also have to understand why they don't require dogs in American Field to retrieve. I wish brittanys had to win a retrieving stake in order to win a Field Champion title, but they dont' ask my opinion! :chuckle:
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 06:13:14 AM
Are you running any local AKC pointer field trials or AKC pointer hunt tests? There are about 7 AKC hunt tests in Fall City this spring, some AKC walking field trials south and an AKC field trial spring over in SUnnyside. I'll be there planting birds on horseback. Be fun to see some faces from here running their dogs in the FT or HT..
No. I was born and raised in the PNW, and my family is all still there, but I've lived in Georgia for the past 4 years. Washington will always be my home though, and I get back to hunt and fish with my dad quite a bit. We just sent our pup back with the trainer 3 weeks ago for the spring trial circuit. She ran in GA two weeks ago, Bama last week, and shes in MO in a championship that should finish up today. Then its up to Illinois for another championship and then down to Tennessee for the AKC NGD Championship at Ames Plantation. I don't know when shes going to be done with the spring circuit this year. But Id love to get her to a couple hunt tests before they are done with to see what they are all about. Ive been told by a guy I hunted with one day that shes at the level of a master hunter, so it would be great to get the MH title along with the FC and AF RU-Ch. But we have issues with snakes down here, so they wrap up the hunt tests pretty early in the year.
Post by: JJD on February 10, 2012, 07:24:41 AM
"90% of them don't need to be FF'ed".
Just curious as to what you believe constitutes need? I am retriever owner/trainer and have no experience training or working Spanials or pointers.
The only fault in a dog is one you can't tolerate. If one is happy with his dogs work, it's all you need.
Wind at your back . . .
JJD
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 08:38:13 AM
JetJocky,
"90% of them don't need to be FF'ed".
Just curious as to what you believe constitutes need? I am retriever owner/trainer and have no experience training or working Spanials or pointers.
The only fault in a dog is one you can't tolerate. If one is happy with his dogs work, it's all you need.
Wind at your back . . .
JJD
I am no pro trainer, but most of the brits, gsp's, V's, springers, etc that I have seen, have somewhat of a natural retrieving instinct. That instinct can be brought out in them even more by encouraging the retrieve and training. IMO you don't need to FF an upland dog that has a natural retrieve. However, some dogs just don't seem to have any instinct for the retrieve. If you have a dog that has absolutely no retrieving instinct, then your only real option is FF if you want the dog to retrieve. I thought that I may have to FF my brit. In the field she would pick up a dead bird, but had no desire to bring it back to me. However, she would retrieve tennis balls and her toys all day long when I was playing with her in the yard and house, so I had something to work off. Eventually, the "fetch" command I was using in the yard rubbed off to the field. Now I have a dog that retrieves quite well. But, I dont' need her to retrieve ducks and geese, even though Im sure I could train her to without FF. I also don't need for her to do blind retrieves like the retrieving guys do. If I shoot a bird that she doesn't see fall, I can send her in the direction of the bird and let her nose to the rest. The "fetch" and "dead bird" command let her know that there is a bird I want retrieved, and her nose will lead her too it. However, as a pointing dog guy who also runs my dog in trials with a pro, I have to be very careful about letting my dog retrieve. It can be a fine line between smelling a bird and retrieving it, and smelling a bird and pointing it. Ive seen dogs in trials retrieve birds they should have pointed... Game over, and the reason many pro's don't want their pointing dogs to retrieve. The retrieving guys demand a lot more in the line of the retrieve then us pointer guys. So I can see why they use FF so much more.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2012, 08:43:15 AM
How many AF trials are run west of the Missouri River? Do you ever train and handle your own dog in these events? Just curious.
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 09:40:22 AM
Now, why would they have retrieving nationals and non-retrieving nationals? I still hold to the value, same as AKC FT which I'm pretty certain is a lot more established and older than AF, that a dog who is steady to shot and retrieves to hand is a more highly finished dog. I know plenty of dogs who can range big for an hour. Time matters nothing. That is only conditioning. What matters is how many birds can a dog stay steady through, how many backs can a dog hold up to, how many shots over the dogs head and how many retrieves to hand. I dog who is trained to run, blink backs, not be 100% steady to shot and retrieve the bird shot over its' head is a less highly trained, less finished animal.
How many AF trials are run west of the Missouri River? Do you ever train and handle your own dog in these events? Just curious.
Your comment about AF vs AKC tells me you don't seem to understand the pointing dog side of field trials. American Field is older then the AKC, I believe AF is much bigger, and I know they are more established. The AF Nationals at Ames is THE NATIONALS of all Nationals. AF trials tend to be much harder to win, and you will see very few of the versatile breeds entered in AF only stakes. They also have more championships ran on wild birds then the AKC does. Both AF and AKC have their plusses and minuses, but AF is a much bigger and more established organization in terms of pointing dog field trials.
I couldn't tell you how many AF trials are ran west of the Missouri, because its a lot. Here's a link for trials in Oregon and WA alone. Notice they are all championships! There's a few in Idaho as well. You can browse the link to see other trials in other locations.
And time does make a HUGE difference. Often times it seperates the good dogs from the not so good dogs. More time requires more stamina, typically resulting in more bird work, which often results in more chances for the dog to screw up. Any dog can run 30 minutes, it takes a lot more dog to run 1 hr, 1.5 hrs, or the 3 hour braces run at the AF Nationals. When dogs get tired, they tend to screw up, just like people. Not all dogs can be pushed to there physical limits and still handle, still perform well on birds, and still hunt. Thats why a dog with an American Field Championship in its name is so much more impressive then just a Field Champion.
I have no idea why the AKC typically has a retrieving, and no-retrieving gun dog nationals. Maybe its because certain breeds are required to retrieve, and others aren't. It makes no difference to me though since they dont have the retrieving stake this year at the AKC GD Nationals at Ames, and even if they did, she would run in non-retrieving stakes.
As far as me training and handling my own dog. I usually spend 3 or 4 days at summer camp in SD working with the trainer and running dogs off horse every summer. When I dropped my dog off in January I spent 3 days on a horse with him running my dog in Kentucky on wild and released quail. Last weekend we took 3rd in Amateur All Age, and if I can get the time off, I will be running her next month in a 1 hour Open All Age championship in Ohio. For the most part, she is done running weekend trials. As of right now, every trial she is entered in is a 1 hour championship, and those usually run during the week. So I have no choice except to run her myself in the weekend trials if I want to see her run. Plus, Id like to see her get her Amateur Field Champion title as well.
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/directory/?categoryId=2245
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2012, 10:03:02 AM
Either way, you can argue with direction. Running a long stake is difficult, I have no arguement with that although, I still will contest that it is more demanding for a dog who has a high bird drive to have live roosters shot over his head, remain steady with the handler remaining 100% silent, (no whoa's) and retrieve. This is a finished dog, a dog trained to a much higher level than one who does not have these capabilities.
A dog who may blink a back because he's far ahead of a spotter or down the next hill, go on point, have the handler whoaing/verbally commanding the dog, then have a cap pistol blank shot over his head, then, immediately return to hunting without having a bird fall, make a retrieve or otherwise is a less polished dog.
Would this not explain why so few FC's in the pointer world have both an AKC FC in front of their name and a MH on the end? That is impressive to me. That is a finished dog all the way around.
Next arguement, you only need one win, one retrieve and minor stake points to become an FC. To become a MH, you must demonstrate the dog backs, the dog goes on point and holds the point with no command, the dog has a LIVE bird shot and killed over it, the dog retrieves the bird to hand and, the dog handles. The dog must do this 5 times perfectly to obtain that title.
Post by: Shannon on February 10, 2012, 10:40:09 AM
"However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames. Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames".
I agree with you but I was wondering why you think that also?
There is a huge difference in steadiness to a cap gun and steadiness to a bird shot at 20 yards with a shotgun and the feathers float across the dogs face. My dogs stand to a cap gun early on in training but it takes more work to shoot a bird on the ground that they can see 15 yards in front of them and still have them steady. If they stand to that every time, that's a steady dog IMO. Don't worry, I only do that in training with training birds so I don't need the ethics police commenting here :)
The AF has been running trials a lot lot longer than AKC. I think having AF wins on a pedigree holds a higher value to most hard core pointer people and therefore draws more hardcore pointer people and dogs nationally. What the AKC requires may seem harder to some but that title holds less weight in the pointing dog world.
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Here ya go, this is from Wikipedia. AKC is more well known because they are more then just a field trial group. American Field is simply for pointing breed field trials.
"Definitions of field trials differ based on the organizations that sanction them. The above definition for trials in Great Britain, for example, is quite different from, for example, FDSB (Field Dog Stud Book) field trials for pointers, English setters, German shorthaired pointers and Brittanys in the United States. The FDSB is the oldest stud book in the USA. The American Field publishes a weekly newspaper announcing field trials (open and amateur) in the USA, Canada and Japan and reporting the results of previous trials. Stakes in field trials are for puppies, derbies and mature dogs for which there are generally three placements in each stake. There are championships for which dogs must qualify by winning placements in order to compete in them. They generally award a winner and runner-up winner but there are exceptions to this. i.e. The National Championship has only a winner. There are primarily Walking stakes (including grouse and woodcock trials, referred to as 'grouse' or 'cover dog' trials held in areas of the country where those birds are prominent), horseback Shooting Dog and All-Age trials held throughout the country on various species of upland game birds. In many parts of the country, trials are now held on released or liberated game because wild birds no longer exist in those areas. Enormous efforts by conservation groups supported by field trialers have been made to reverse this situation by land management efforts to restore the natural habitat wild upland game birds require."
As far as MH title being easier or tougher to achieve then a FC? It depends. Like I have said, an FC title isn't that hard to obtain if you chose the right trials. A dog can obtain an AKC FC by running against substandard competition in weekend trials. However, when you jump up to the championship level of trials, it is much harder to achieve a FC. Thats why an American Field Champion title in a dogs name is so impressive. It means that dog ran in a championship against other great dogs and finished either #1 or #2. Hunt tests test to a certain level. If you have 20 dogs that are all trained to the MH level, they will all achieve a MH title. If you have 20 dogs at a trial, then only 1 will win, and 1 will be RU. And if your hacking at a dog when its on point by "whoaing" it, or the dog blows a back, your not going to be #1 or #2. In the versatile world of AKC trials, those dogs all have to prove they can retrieve, just like in a Hunt Test. IMO any dog can achieve a Master Hunter title with enough training. Not every dog has the drive, stamina, and range to become an FC.. I know of several dogs who got washed out of trialing who became MH's. I don't know any dogs who got washed out of hunt tests and ended up a Field Champion, it just doesn't happen.
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 10:53:13 AM
Jet Jockey Wrote:
"However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames. Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames".
I agree with you but I was wondering why you think that also?
There is a huge difference in steadiness to a cap gun and steadiness to a bird shot at 20 yards with a shotgun and the feathers float across the dogs face. My dogs stand to a cap gun early on in training but its takes more work to shoot a bird on the ground 15 yards in front of them and still have them steady. If they stand to that every time, that's a steady dog IMO. Don't worry, I only do that in training with training birds so I don't need the ethics police commenting here :)
The AF has been running trials a lot lot longer than AKC. I think having AF wins on a pedigree holds a higher value to most hard core pointer people and therefore draws more hardcore pointer people and dogs nationally. What the AKC requires may seem harder to some but that title holds less weight in the pointing dog world.
I agree with you 100%.
The reason no versatiles can hang at Ames is because its a 3 hour trial. EP's are really the only dogs, with a few ES's mixed in, who have the athletic ability to go all out for 3 hours. Plus, lets face it, the judges are probably NEVER going to put a dog on the steps that doesn't have a tail, even if a brit or GSP could hang for 3 hours.
What many people seem to forget, is just because a bird isn't killed over a pointing dog in most trials, doesn't mean the dog hasn't had lots of birds killed over them. It just means they don't do it in trials. I would be willing to bet that most pro's kill birds over their dogs now and then to make sure they are steady all the way through the fall, because it does take a little more steadiness. Some people also say that trial dogs don't make good wild bird dogs because they get run on a lot of released birds. What those people don't realize is there are a lot of wild bird trials, and most of the top trial dogs spend summers in the midwest training only on wild birds. For the most part, a dog who becomes a Field Champion is a pretty darn steady dog. Easily as steady as a dog who obtains its MH title.
Post by: Shannon on February 10, 2012, 11:02:53 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2012, 11:47:11 AM
run a dog into the last series, 4th day of competing and when a big pheasant flier goes up and is shot in a poof of feathers you separate the men from the boys...so to speak.
Same as retrievers, the venue also dictates your training. Same as retrievers, a FC title holds a lot more water on paper because few people can afford the circuit. Especially with pointers requiring horses etc. You're talking minimum $75K set up without including your dog training costs.
Anywho- a MH retriever will be a more polished dog than an FC when it comes to hunting. AKC HT are designed for a man and his dog. You do it on foot, you have a dog which handles, is steady and steady to shot. Same in both retriever and pointer tests.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2012, 11:49:22 AM
An un forced fetched dog is going to be highly unlikely to be able to complete an AKC Pointer Hunt test due to the requirement that they retrieve and retrieve consistently in every test and every bird shot over them.....That's all I was trying to say in the beginning.
A FF'd dog will be a better dog, more well rounded and more "finished" than one who is not. Regardless of what stakes you run in that don't require the retrieve of a live shot bird. And, running 3 hours isn't a big deal. All the setters, GSP's, EP, Brits and Weims we took to South Dakota and Montana for 6 weeks didn't have any issues hunting their turn over 10 hours a day and still go on and hold point at the end of the day to a live wild rooster..
If your dog doesn't retrieve a live shot bird in the chest high CRP out here, especially a wounded runner, you're not getting the bird home. (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2FHunting%2520pictures%2FSouthDakota022-1.jpg&hash=ebdff501d2c29b4344571b06f57fcc0ec4407094)
Post by: jetjockey on February 10, 2012, 12:51:52 PM
A FF'd dog will be a better dog, more well rounded and more "finished" than one who is not. Regardless of what stakes you run in that don't require the retrieve of a live shot bird. And, running 3 hours isn't a big deal. All the setters, GSP's, EP, Brits and Weims we took to South Dakota and Montana for 6 weeks didn't have any issues hunting their turn over 10 hours a day and still go on and hold point at the end of the day to a live wild rooster..
Happy, we are going to have to agree to disagree!
Its obvious you have never seen a horseback pointing dog trial, especially an All Age trial. I will also assume you don't know what is required for a dog to win a HB AA trial either. I assure you, I can foot hunt my brittany for hours on end. However, if I ran her at her trial speed for 10 hours, shed be DEAD! There is a HUGE difference in the speed it takes to win a trial, and the speed at which typical dogs hunt. The dogs at Ames cover 25-30 miles....... IN 3 HOURS! Your dogs ain't doing that!
As far as FF goes, I will stand by my post that if the dog has a natural retrieve, FF is most likely not required to achieve the Master Hunter level for pointing dogs. I know a guy who's brittany didn't have the run for trials, but she earned her MH title not too long ago, and he never FF'd her. I plan on entering my dog in MH tests, and she was never FF'd. She retrieves to hand every time and holds the bird until I tell her to "give". She doesn't waiver. I had no desire to run her in a hunt test because her natural retrieve came out slowly, and I knew she wouldnt pass the retrieving portion. Then I hunted with a guy who runs his GSP's and Brits in hunt tests, and he saw my dog run, and retrieve. He talked me into entering her into MH level tests when I get her back. Not sure if it will be this spring, or next winter. But after talking to the guy, Im fairly confident she will do just fine at the MH level.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2012, 06:07:02 PM
I have no doubt I'll learn alot when I'm put on a horse in another month for a few days. That's the beauty of it- When you quit learning or, you think things are only the way you see them, you're usually a pretty crappy dog person/trainer.
I'm always open to being proven wrong :chuckle: