TO FORCE FETCH OR NOT TO FORCE FETCH? THAT IS THE QUESTION

[RC3]

I'll look into those hunt tests might be kinda fun to do something different.

And Yes I agree with Happy Force Fetch is a must in my opinion, although I don't start my dog on the collar with FF I use the kennel command they already know and go from there but your way could be better I'm not going to say I know as much about FF as you so I'm not going to say my way is better just the way I started:)

[jetjockey]

I dog that doesn't point then, retrieve shot game just isn't finished in my opinion. You are required to win a single retrieving stake in the dogs' field career although, my understanding is that it is just a single time and never required again.

At the AKC hunt test senior hunter and master hunter level, each bird shot over the dog in the bird field must be retrieved to hand. In addition to being steady to shot. I am also talking about AKC Pointer Field trials regarding past rules.

You have to be careful when talking about trials, because they are all a little different.  Horsebacak trials began in the south.  Back then hunters hunted quail off horses on large plantations.  They also had a mule drawn carriages with them that had cockers, springers, labs, and other flushing breeds.  The pointing dogs (which were always EP's or ES's) would find the birds.  Once they were on point, the handlers released the flushing breeds to flush, and retrieve all dead birds.  The pointing dogs were required to be steady through the entire flush and retrieve.  Thats why American Field trials are run off hores, no retrieving is required, and dogs are required to be 100% steady. 

In American Field, dogs are also not crowned Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion, like they are in AKC.  In AF you either win, get runner up, or get nothing.  In AF dogs are Champions, or RU Champions, and they put the number of wins or RU's before the title.  For instance, my dog ran in a dual sanctioned AKC/AF Championship trial last weekend (in the brittany and GSP world its not uncommon to have both body's sanction a championship trial) and she took runner up.  She was already an AKC Field Champion, but now she is a 1xAmField Runner up Champion as well.   The rules of the trial are basically the same, but the way AKC and AF title dogs is different.  There are a lot of AKC FC's out there that are not very good dogs.  A dog can win an AKC FC running only 30 minute weekend stakes against horrible competition to achieve its FC.  However, if a dog has an American Field Championship in its name, it says a LOT more about the dog.  AmField Championships are 1 hour trials or better.  You are going to have a lot higher level of dogs running because they are championships, and people want the American Field title in front of the dogs name.  For the most part, and broke AKC pointing dog can win its FC if you chose the right trials, winning a AmField title is a heck of a lot harder.......  In the real English Pointer and English Setter world, they run American Field, and not American Kennel Club.  So those dogs, will never become Field Champions, only Champions.  American Field is considered that pinnacle of the field trial world, and the AF Nationals thats held at Ames Plantation every February is considered the #1 National to win in the pointing dog world.  However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames.  Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames.  Because of that, it makes it even more impressive that the winningest handler at Ames FF'd all his dogs, when they were never required to retrieve.

In the AKC trial world, things are a little different.  All the versatiles are required to win a retrieving stake in order to achieve their FC's.  Brittanys however are the one exception, they aren't required to retrieve, but they have to win a 3 point major.  Obviously it varies from breed to breed how to obtain a FC title in the AKC world.  Many of the trials held for GSP, V's, Weims, etc have retrieving stakes.  A dog is only required to win 1, but they will run in a lot of retrieving stakes.  Thats why the AKC Gun Dog Nationals typically has a retrieving, and non-retrieving National.  Thats also one of the reasons GSP's and Brit tend to dominate the AKC GD Nationals, and the EP's and ES's dominate the AF Nationals.  You can even break it down more and say that Brits and GSP's seem to dominate the non-retrieving stake, while GSP's tend to dominate the retrieving stake, with brits coming in a distant second..  You don't see many EP's or ES's because most of them are running in American Field, which by many people, is considered a much higher level of competition.  But make no mistake about it, in the AKC world, most all of the versatiles are going to be fully finished dogs that retrieve, and many of the brittanys are as well, even though they aren't required to be.

I agree with you Happy that for a dog to be truely finished, it needs to retrieve.  But you also have to understand why they don't require dogs in American Field to retrieve.  I wish brittanys had to win a retrieving stake in order to win a Field Champion title, but they dont' ask my opinion!   

[jetjockey]

Are you running any local AKC pointer field trials or AKC pointer hunt tests? There are about 7 AKC hunt tests in Fall City this spring, some AKC walking field trials south and an AKC field trial spring over in SUnnyside. I'll be there planting birds on horseback. Be fun to see some faces from here running their dogs in the FT or HT..

No. I was born and raised in the PNW, and my family is all still there, but I've lived in Georgia for the past 4 years.  Washington will always be my home though, and I get back to hunt and fish with my dad quite a bit.   We just sent our pup back with the trainer 3 weeks ago for the spring trial circuit.  She ran in GA two weeks ago, Bama last week, and shes in MO in a championship that should finish up today.  Then its up to Illinois for another championship and then down to Tennessee for the AKC NGD Championship at Ames Plantation.  I don't know when shes going to be done with the spring circuit this year.  But Id love to get her to a couple hunt tests before they are done with to see what they are all about.  Ive been told by a guy I hunted with one day that shes at the level of a master hunter, so it would be great to get the MH title along with the FC and AF RU-Ch.  But we have issues with snakes down here, so they wrap up the hunt tests pretty early in the year.

[JJD]

JetJocky,

"90% of them don't need to be FF'ed".

Just curious as to what you believe constitutes need?  I am retriever owner/trainer and have no experience training or working Spanials or pointers.

The only fault in a dog is one you can't tolerate.  If one is happy with his dogs work, it's all you need.

Wind at your back . . .
JJD

[jetjockey]

JetJocky,

"90% of them don't need to be FF'ed".

Just curious as to what you believe constitutes need?  I am retriever owner/trainer and have no experience training or working Spanials or pointers.

The only fault in a dog is one you can't tolerate.  If one is happy with his dogs work, it's all you need.

Wind at your back . . .
JJD

I am no pro trainer, but most of the brits, gsp's, V's, springers, etc that I have seen, have somewhat of a natural retrieving instinct.  That instinct can be brought out in them even more by encouraging the retrieve and training.  IMO you don't need to FF an upland dog that has a natural retrieve.    However, some dogs just don't seem to have any instinct for the retrieve.  If you have a dog that has absolutely no retrieving instinct, then your only real option is FF if you want the dog to retrieve.  I thought that I may have to FF my brit.  In the field she would pick up a dead bird, but had no desire to bring it back to me.  However, she would retrieve tennis balls and her toys all day long when I was playing with her in the yard and house, so I had something to work off.  Eventually, the "fetch" command I was using in the yard rubbed off to the field.  Now I have a dog that retrieves quite well.  But, I dont' need her to retrieve ducks and geese, even though Im sure I could train her to without FF.  I also don't need for her to do blind retrieves like the retrieving guys do.  If I shoot a bird that she doesn't see fall, I can send her in the direction of the bird and let her nose to the rest.  The "fetch" and "dead bird" command let her know that there is a bird I want retrieved, and  her nose will lead her too it.  However, as a pointing dog guy who also runs my dog in trials with a pro, I have to be very careful about letting my dog retrieve.  It can be a fine line between smelling a bird and retrieving it, and smelling a bird and pointing it.  Ive seen dogs in trials retrieve birds they should have pointed...  Game over, and the reason many pro's don't want their pointing dogs to retrieve.  The retrieving guys demand a lot more in the line of the retrieve then us pointer guys.  So I can see why they use FF so much more.

[Happy Gilmore]

Now, why would they have retrieving nationals and non-retrieving nationals? I still hold to the value, same as AKC FT which I'm pretty certain is a lot more established and older than AF, that a dog who is steady to shot and retrieves to hand is a more highly finished dog. I know plenty of dogs who can range big for an hour. Time matters nothing. That is only conditioning. What matters is how many birds can a dog stay steady through, how many backs can a dog hold up to, how many shots over the dogs head and how many retrieves to hand. I dog who is trained to run, blink backs, not be 100% steady to shot and retrieve the bird shot over its' head is a less highly trained, less finished animal.

How many AF trials are run west of the Missouri River? Do you ever train and handle your own dog in these events? Just curious.

[jetjockey]

Now, why would they have retrieving nationals and non-retrieving nationals? I still hold to the value, same as AKC FT which I'm pretty certain is a lot more established and older than AF, that a dog who is steady to shot and retrieves to hand is a more highly finished dog. I know plenty of dogs who can range big for an hour. Time matters nothing. That is only conditioning. What matters is how many birds can a dog stay steady through, how many backs can a dog hold up to, how many shots over the dogs head and how many retrieves to hand. I dog who is trained to run, blink backs, not be 100% steady to shot and retrieve the bird shot over its' head is a less highly trained, less finished animal.

How many AF trials are run west of the Missouri River? Do you ever train and handle your own dog in these events? Just curious.

Your comment about AF vs AKC tells me you don't seem to understand the pointing dog side of field trials.   American Field is older then the AKC, I believe AF is much bigger, and I know they are more established. The AF Nationals at Ames is THE NATIONALS of all Nationals.   AF trials tend to be much harder to win, and you will see very few of the versatile breeds entered in AF only stakes. They also have more championships ran on wild birds then the AKC does.  Both AF and AKC have their plusses and minuses, but AF is a much bigger and more established organization in terms of pointing dog field trials. 

I couldn't tell you how many AF trials are ran west of the Missouri, because its a lot.  Here's a link for trials in Oregon and WA alone.  Notice they are all championships!  There's a few in Idaho as well.  You can browse the link to see other trials in other locations. 

And time does make a HUGE difference.  Often times it seperates the good dogs from the not so good dogs.  More time requires more stamina, typically resulting in more bird work, which often results in more chances for the dog to screw up.  Any dog can run 30 minutes, it takes a lot more dog to run 1 hr, 1.5 hrs, or the 3 hour braces run at the AF Nationals.  When dogs get tired, they tend to screw up, just like people.  Not all dogs can be pushed to there physical limits and still handle, still perform well on birds, and still hunt.  Thats why a dog with an American Field Championship in its name is so much more impressive then just a Field Champion.

I have no idea why the AKC typically has a retrieving, and no-retrieving gun dog nationals.  Maybe its because certain breeds are required to retrieve, and others aren't.  It makes no difference to me though since they dont have the retrieving stake this year at the AKC GD Nationals at Ames, and even if they did, she would run in non-retrieving stakes.

As far as me training and handling my own dog.  I usually spend 3 or 4 days at summer camp in SD working with the trainer and running dogs off horse every summer.  When I dropped my dog off in January I spent 3 days on a horse with him running my dog in Kentucky on wild and released quail.  Last weekend we took 3rd in Amateur All Age, and if I can get the time off, I will be running her next month in a 1 hour Open All Age championship in Ohio.  For the most part, she is done running weekend trials.  As of right now, every trial she is entered in is a 1 hour championship, and those usually run during the week.  So I have no choice except to run her myself in the weekend trials if I want to see her run.  Plus, Id like to see her get her Amateur Field Champion title as well.

http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/directory/?categoryId=2245

[Happy Gilmore]

I definately don't know much about AF. Looking through their history/hall of fame they appear much younger than AKC but, still modern going back to the late 1950's. Definately will do some research.

Either way, you can argue with direction. Running a long stake is difficult, I have no arguement with that although, I still will contest that it is more demanding for a dog who has a high bird drive to have live roosters shot over his head, remain steady with the handler remaining 100% silent, (no whoa's) and retrieve. This is a finished dog, a dog trained to a much higher level than one who does not have these capabilities.

A dog who may blink a back because he's far ahead of a spotter or down the next hill, go on point, have the handler whoaing/verbally commanding the dog, then have a cap pistol blank shot over his head, then, immediately return to hunting without having a bird fall, make a retrieve or otherwise is a less polished dog.

Would this not explain why so few FC's in the pointer world have both an AKC FC in front of their name and a MH on the end? That is impressive to me. That is a finished dog all the way around.

Next arguement, you only need one win, one retrieve and minor stake points to become an FC. To become a MH, you must demonstrate the dog backs, the dog goes on point and holds the point with no command, the dog has a LIVE bird shot and killed over it, the dog retrieves the bird to hand and, the dog handles. The dog must do this 5 times perfectly to obtain that title.

[Shannon]

Jet Jockey Wrote:
"However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames.  Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames".
I agree with you but I was wondering why you think that also?

There is a huge difference in steadiness to a cap gun and steadiness to a bird shot at 20 yards with a shotgun and the feathers float across the dogs face. My dogs stand to a cap gun early on in training but it takes more work to shoot a bird on the ground that they can see 15 yards in front of them and still have them steady. If they stand to that every time, that's a steady dog IMO. Don't worry, I only do that in training with training birds so I don't need the ethics police commenting here

The AF has been running trials a lot lot longer than AKC. I think having AF wins on a pedigree holds a higher value to most hard core pointer people and therefore draws more hardcore pointer people and dogs nationally. What the AKC requires may seem harder to some but that title holds less weight in the pointing dog world. 

[jetjockey]

Trust me Happy, Im not lying to you.  You have to go back a lot further then the 1950's to get to the beginning of American Field.  They have been running the Nationals at Ames since 1915, and that nationals began in the 1890's.  The AF Nationals is "The Big Dance" of field trials.   There was some discussion among some trialers if they should allow the winner of the AKC GD Nationals to gets its picture taken on the steps at Ames like the AF Nationals.  Some people were very against it considering the history.   

Here ya go, this is from Wikipedia.  AKC is more well known because they are more then just a field trial group.  American Field is simply for pointing breed field trials. 

"Definitions of field trials differ based on the organizations that sanction them. The above definition for trials in Great Britain, for example, is quite different from, for example, FDSB (Field Dog Stud Book) field trials for pointers, English setters, German shorthaired pointers and Brittanys in the United States. The FDSB is the oldest stud book in the USA. The American Field publishes a weekly newspaper announcing field trials (open and amateur) in the USA, Canada and Japan and reporting the results of previous trials. Stakes in field trials are for puppies, derbies and mature dogs for which there are generally three placements in each stake. There are championships for which dogs must qualify by winning placements in order to compete in them. They generally award a winner and runner-up winner but there are exceptions to this. i.e. The National Championship has only a winner. There are primarily Walking stakes (including grouse and woodcock trials, referred to as 'grouse' or 'cover dog' trials held in areas of the country where those birds are prominent), horseback Shooting Dog and All-Age trials held throughout the country on various species of upland game birds. In many parts of the country, trials are now held on released or liberated game because wild birds no longer exist in those areas. Enormous efforts by conservation groups supported by field trialers have been made to reverse this situation by land management efforts to restore the natural habitat wild upland game birds require."


As far as  MH title being easier or tougher to achieve then a FC?  It depends.  Like I have said, an FC title isn't that hard to obtain if you chose the right trials.  A dog can obtain an AKC FC by running against substandard competition in weekend trials.  However, when you jump up to the championship level of trials, it is much harder to achieve a FC.  Thats why an American Field Champion title in a dogs name is so impressive.  It means that dog ran in a championship against other great dogs and finished either #1 or #2.   Hunt tests test to a certain level.  If you have 20 dogs that are all trained to the MH level, they will all achieve a MH title.  If you have 20 dogs at a trial, then only 1 will win, and 1 will be RU.  And if your hacking at a dog when its on point by "whoaing" it, or the dog blows a back, your not going to be #1 or #2.  In the versatile world of AKC trials, those dogs all have to prove they can retrieve, just like in a Hunt Test.  IMO any dog can achieve a Master Hunter title with enough training.  Not every dog has the drive, stamina, and range to become an FC..  I know of several dogs who got washed out of trialing who became MH's.  I don't know any dogs who got washed out of hunt tests and ended up a Field Champion, it just doesn't happen.

[jetjockey]

Jet Jockey Wrote:
"However, the way its set up, non of the versatiles will ever be able to compete at Ames.  Heck, its been 30+ years since a Setter has won Ames".
I agree with you but I was wondering why you think that also?

There is a huge difference in steadiness to a cap gun and steadiness to a bird shot at 20 yards with a shotgun and the feathers float across the dogs face. My dogs stand to a cap gun early on in training but its takes more work to shoot a bird on the ground 15 yards in front of them and still have them steady. If they stand to that every time, that's a steady dog IMO. Don't worry, I only do that in training with training birds so I don't need the ethics police commenting here

The AF has been running trials a lot lot longer than AKC. I think having AF wins on a pedigree holds a higher value to most hard core pointer people and therefore draws more hardcore pointer people and dogs nationally. What the AKC requires may seem harder to some but that title holds less weight in the pointing dog world.

I agree with you 100%. 

The reason no versatiles can hang at Ames is because its a 3 hour trial.  EP's are really the only dogs, with a few ES's mixed in, who have the athletic ability to go all out for 3 hours.  Plus, lets face it, the judges are probably NEVER going to put a dog on the steps that doesn't have a tail, even if a brit or GSP could hang for 3 hours. 

What many people seem to forget, is just because a bird isn't killed over a pointing dog in most trials,  doesn't mean the dog hasn't had lots of birds killed over them.  It just means they don't do it in trials.  I would be willing to bet that most pro's kill birds over their dogs now and then to make sure they are steady all the way through the fall, because it does take a little more steadiness.  Some people also say that trial dogs don't make good wild bird dogs because they get run on a lot of released birds.  What those people don't realize is there are a lot of wild bird trials, and most of the top trial dogs spend summers in the midwest training only on wild birds.  For the most part, a dog who becomes a Field Champion is a pretty darn steady dog.  Easily as steady as a dog who obtains its MH title.

[Shannon]

We think similar as to why a versatile won't win at Ame's. A lot of what is scored is style and I've never seen a v-dog as stylish as a setter or pointer. I own v-dogs but there is something about a pointer going a hundred miles an hour and instantly turning to stone with that 12 o'clock tail. Its a sight to be seen that doesn't compare to a v-dog even if the v-dogs could hang around for that 3 hours with the same stamina. 

[Happy Gilmore]

As the same with retriever stakes, of which I am most familiar,

run a dog into the last series, 4th day of competing and when a big pheasant flier goes up and is shot in a poof of feathers you separate the men from the boys...so to speak.

Same as retrievers, the venue also dictates your training. Same as retrievers, a FC title holds a lot more water on paper because few people can afford the circuit. Especially with pointers requiring horses etc. You're talking minimum $75K set up without including your dog training costs.

Anywho- a MH retriever will be a more polished dog than an FC when it comes to hunting. AKC HT are designed for a man and his dog. You do it on foot, you have a dog which handles, is steady and steady to shot. Same in both retriever and pointer tests.

[Happy Gilmore]

And back to what brought this all about.....


An un forced fetched dog is going to be highly unlikely to be able to complete an AKC Pointer Hunt test due to the requirement that they retrieve and retrieve consistently in every test and every bird shot over them.....That's all I was trying to say in the beginning.

A FF'd dog will be a better dog, more well rounded and more "finished" than one who is not. Regardless of what stakes you run in that don't require the retrieve of a live shot bird. And, running 3 hours isn't a big deal. All the setters, GSP's, EP, Brits and Weims we took to South Dakota and Montana for 6 weeks didn't have any issues hunting their turn over 10 hours a day and still go on and hold point at the end of the day to a live wild rooster..

If your dog doesn't retrieve a live shot bird in the chest high CRP out here, especially a wounded runner, you're not getting the bird home.

[jetjockey]

A FF'd dog will be a better dog, more well rounded and more "finished" than one who is not. Regardless of what stakes you run in that don't require the retrieve of a live shot bird. And, running 3 hours isn't a big deal. All the setters, GSP's, EP, Brits and Weims we took to South Dakota and Montana for 6 weeks didn't have any issues hunting their turn over 10 hours a day and still go on and hold point at the end of the day to a live wild rooster..

Happy, we are going to have to agree to disagree!

Its obvious you have never seen a horseback pointing dog trial, especially an All Age trial.  I will also assume you don't know what is required for a dog to win a HB AA trial either.  I assure you, I can foot hunt my brittany for hours on end.  However, if I ran her at her trial speed for 10 hours, shed be DEAD! There is a HUGE difference in the speed it takes to win a trial, and the speed at which typical dogs hunt.  The dogs at Ames cover 25-30 miles....... IN 3 HOURS!  Your dogs ain't doing that!

As far as FF goes, I will stand by my post that if the dog has a natural retrieve, FF is most likely not required to achieve the Master Hunter level for pointing dogs.  I know a guy who's brittany didn't have the run for trials, but she earned her MH title not too long ago, and he never FF'd her.  I plan on entering my dog in MH tests, and she was never FF'd.  She retrieves to hand every time and holds the bird until I tell her to "give".  She doesn't waiver.  I had no desire to run her in a hunt test because her natural retrieve came out slowly, and I knew she wouldnt pass the retrieving portion.  Then I hunted with a guy who runs his GSP's and Brits in hunt tests, and he saw my dog run, and retrieve.  He talked me into entering her into MH level tests when I get her back.  Not sure if it will be this spring, or next winter.  But after talking to the guy, Im fairly confident she will do just fine at the MH level.