Free: Contests & Raffles.
Agreed, sorry happy, I enjoy my dog the way he is but I've seen force fetch work very well with other dogs! My only real opinion I guess is that if you've never force fetch trained your dog have a pro do it the first time and try to learn from it.
I dont have time to read the whole thread, but there is a big difference between Force Fetch and what you are describing Happy... what you are describing is a Blind Retrieve. My lab was flawless at it (well, as flawless as a dog could be)... and my 1 year old springer is doing well with it, but needs more work.Force fetch is a method of training a dog to fetch or retrieve something...whether its in there sight or not. Its making them bring the bird/dummy/tennis ball/stick TO YOU. None of my dogs ever needed to be "FF'd"... but they did need to be trained to blind retrieve. If this was discussed in pages 2-4, sorry... came on late and dont have time to read everything!
That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!
Quote from: Hornseeker on February 08, 2012, 02:00:29 PMThat makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!With the springers I've been around....you have to be very, very careful FF them...... Earlier comments about how FF can ruin a dog couldn't be more true with springers and Brittany's. They can be real goofy little sensitive dogs but, still maintain a toughness through it...
As I mentioned umpteen pages back.. FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly. Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do.... Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?
Quote from: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2012, 08:38:15 AMAs I mentioned umpteen pages back.. FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly. Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do.... Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?Actually, the trainer who FF'd all his dogs was before the days of e-collars. But he did use it as a foundation to increase confidence in the dog, and the relationship between the trainer and the dog. Not sure he would have done it in todays world of e-collars. In the pointing dog world there is a fine line between style, and the anticipation of the retrieve. Many pro's out here don't let their dogs retrieve because it can diminish the dogs style when the bird is flushed. But for a hunting dog, where most people don't care about style, then I fully agree, a fully finished dog that retrieves is what somebody would want. I don't believe there would be any way to get a retriever to the level it needs to be in competition without FF. You can do it in the pointing dog world where dogs aren't required to make 100+ yard blind retrieves.
In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve. For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something. You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have. As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title. Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see. I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.