TO FORCE FETCH OR NOT TO FORCE FETCH? THAT IS THE QUESTION

[Fowlweather25]

Agreed, sorry happy, I enjoy my dog the way he is but I've seen force fetch work very well with other dogs! My only real opinion I guess is that if you've never force fetch trained your dog have a pro do it the first time and try to learn from it.

[Hornseeker]

I dont have time to read the whole thread, but there is a big difference between Force Fetch and what you are describing Happy... what you are describing is a Blind Retrieve. My lab was flawless at it (well, as flawless as a dog could be)... and my 1 year old springer is doing well with it, but needs more work.

Force fetch is a method of training a dog to fetch or retrieve something...whether its in there sight or not. Its making them bring the bird/dummy/tennis ball/stick TO YOU. None of my dogs ever needed to be "FF'd"... but they did need to be trained to blind retrieve.

If this was discussed in pages 2-4, sorry... came on late and dont have time to read everything!

 

[Happy Gilmore]

Agreed, sorry happy, I enjoy my dog the way he is but I've seen force fetch work very well with other dogs! My only real opinion I guess is that if you've never force fetch trained your dog have a pro do it the first time and try to learn from it.

No problem- sorry as well. I'm not trying to convince you- as I've mentioned...it's just another tool.

[Happy Gilmore]

I dont have time to read the whole thread, but there is a big difference between Force Fetch and what you are describing Happy... what you are describing is a Blind Retrieve. My lab was flawless at it (well, as flawless as a dog could be)... and my 1 year old springer is doing well with it, but needs more work.

Force fetch is a method of training a dog to fetch or retrieve something...whether its in there sight or not. Its making them bring the bird/dummy/tennis ball/stick TO YOU. None of my dogs ever needed to be "FF'd"... but they did need to be trained to blind retrieve.

If this was discussed in pages 2-4, sorry... came on late and dont have time to read everything!

 

If you have any type of flow chart in your training(for a retriever) you will first, force fetch. When you start blind retrieves you do sight blinds. from sight blinds, you'll likely force to pile(FTP) Force to pile carries with it the requirement of being force fetched. FTP has the same requirement of when you are simply FFing your dog on the ground exept now, the dog is required to "reach out" to the pile. Getting the dog moving and snapping up the bumper off the ground.

FFing a retriever basically makes the blind retrieve. THere are other less effective ways although, the most well known is starting with FF and then FTP. This allows you to run tough blinds. A blind retrieve for a pointer will typically involve "out" and "hunt"..... It really isn't a blind by retriever people standards. On a retriever blind, there is not any hunt, no following the nose until given the ok to do so.....(this is where it is fun to see a mechanical dog start thinking when hunting over them when it is time for the real deal)

Force fetch is about SO much more than carrying a stick or an object to you.....Force fetch first of all teaches a dog to cope with pressure. Pressure in training the dog will have on it the rest of it's career. This can be as simple as a bird that falls in the middle of a sticker bush. The dog must drive in and retrieve the bird. It isn't something all dogs have the guts to do. When you FF a dog, it isn't a matter of drive or interest. It is a requirement to get in and get that bird. Has nothing to do with holding an object. It changes the whole mentality of what the dogs' purpose is, job and requirements.

[Hornseeker]

That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.

I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.

I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!

PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!

[Happy Gilmore]

That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.

I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.

I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!

PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!

With the springers I've been around....you have to be very, very careful FF them...... Earlier comments about how FF can ruin a dog couldn't be more true with springers and Brittany's. They can be real goofy little sensitive dogs but, still maintain a toughness through it...

[scudmaster]

If you don't want to FF, don't, it is that simple, no need to argue.
If you have not done it, and you think it will "break" a dog, Don't do it.  You probably will break the dog as you need to have the confidence in yourself to stay calm and PATIENCE with your dog to do it right. I started with my second dog, before he was ready, so I gave up and went back to it a couple months later and he was ready.  Both dogs only took a few short sessions before they got it.
As Happy so aptly explained, it is the foundation of advanced training and my dogs flourished after FF.

[jetjockey]

That makes sense Happy... thank you.. and I like it.

I trained my lab very simply, and not for trialing, using wolters books. If I remember right, as long as the dog was willing to fetch, then you didn't have to train to FF... the blinds were a matter of getting your dog to trust your commands. My lab, ok, probably less than flawless as far as trialing goes, would go "back" until I stopped her, but it would take me several reinforcements to get her to go a couple hundred yards. Then I'd stop her and give her a hand signal to which direction. Then, usually...her nose would finish the job or I could give her more directions.

I like the discipline the FF instates in the dog. i think my springer will get to where I need him without it, but I can see its value for sure!

PS...I've seen geese sail many, MANY hundreds of yards with a wound... not commonly, but common enough that I hate it!!!

With the springers I've been around....you have to be very, very careful FF them...... Earlier comments about how FF can ruin a dog couldn't be more true with springers and Brittany's. They can be real goofy little sensitive dogs but, still maintain a toughness through it...

From what Ive seen with the few springers Ive been around, and lots of brittanys, 90% of them don't need to be FF'ed.  But the ones who have, have taken to it nicely without any worry of ruining the dog.   I think too many people confuse sensitive with soft.  Many brits are sensitive, Ive seen few that were soft.  Because of that, its easy to train them..  My 3.5 year old brit showed no desire to retrieve.  When Id send her out for a dead bird, she would find it, mouth it a little, put it down and then move on.  I was considering having her FF'ed because she showed little interest in the retrieve.  But I kept after it, then one day she brought a bird back to me and dropped it at my feet.  Thats all it took.  I praised the hell out of her and she brought back every single bird the rest of that hunt.  When I got her home I worked with her to fetch her toys in the house.  I made it a game and gave her treats when she brought them too me.  Then I taught her "hold".  It took all of 10 minutes to teach her "hold", and she already knew "give" (lots of returned shoes and socks when she was young.  ).  The next day I combined fetch, hold, and give while still playing in the house.  It took maybe 1 hour of house work, and a small bag of treats for her to get it.  On our next hunt I took her out and she retrieved every bird I allowed her to retrieve, right to my hand.  Now, she probably won't do a 200 yard blind retrieve, and Ive never tried to have her retrieve a duck that she didn't point.  But she picked up blind retrieves pretty easily as well, even though I don't like to let her retrieve birds that she didn't see fall.  For most brittanys, and the springers that don't trial, most of them don't need to be FF'ed.  But, it is a great tool and teaches a lot more then just retrieving.  In the pointing dog field trial world the American Field All Age Nationals that gets held at Ames plantation every year in TN is the pinnacle of Field Trialing for pointing dogs.  The winningest trainer in history at Ames won it 11 times, and he FF'd every single one of his english pointers, even though the never retrieved a bird in a trial.  That should tell you something.

[Happy Gilmore]

As I mentioned umpteen pages back..

FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.

Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....

Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?

[jetjockey]

As I mentioned umpteen pages back..

FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.

Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....

Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?

Actually, the trainer who FF'd all his dogs was before the days of e-collars.  But he did use it as a foundation to increase confidence in the dog, and the relationship between the trainer and the dog.  Not sure he would have done it in todays world of e-collars.    In the pointing dog world there is a fine line between style, and the anticipation of the retrieve.  Many pro's out here don't let their dogs retrieve because it can diminish the dogs style when the bird is flushed.  But for a hunting dog, where most people don't care about style, then I fully agree, a fully finished dog that retrieves is what somebody would want.  I don't believe there would be any way to get a retriever to the level it needs to be in competition without FF.  You can do it in the pointing dog world where dogs aren't required to make 100+ yard blind retrieves.

[Happy Gilmore]

As I mentioned umpteen pages back..

FF also sets the foundation for using the e-collar. It is a start to collar conditioning which is 100% required if you are going to strap on an e-collar and do it correctly.

Field trial stakes do not require a retrieve so, the fact a trainer FF's all his dogs shows that one, he doesn't want to not win his retrieving stake when required to do so but, probably utilizes the e-collar and his collar conditioning program includes e-collar work with fetch....as most do....

Hunt test dogs are required to be steady to shot and retrieve a live shot bird in advanced stakes. This is where a no-slip retriever is required because you WILL be scored on the retrieve at every test. What hunter doesn't want his dog to retrieve a bird every time they go hunting?

Actually, the trainer who FF'd all his dogs was before the days of e-collars.  But he did use it as a foundation to increase confidence in the dog, and the relationship between the trainer and the dog.  Not sure he would have done it in todays world of e-collars.    In the pointing dog world there is a fine line between style, and the anticipation of the retrieve.  Many pro's out here don't let their dogs retrieve because it can diminish the dogs style when the bird is flushed.  But for a hunting dog, where most people don't care about style, then I fully agree, a fully finished dog that retrieves is what somebody would want.  I don't believe there would be any way to get a retriever to the level it needs to be in competition without FF.  You can do it in the pointing dog world where dogs aren't required to make 100+ yard blind retrieves.

You're also in the field trial pro world where you don't have to retrieve a bird. Field trial pointers are a much less finished dog than a person who hunts their dog and runs hunt tests.

And- every single trainer pre-collar force broke their dog because they were required to retrieve shot birds. Depends on how old your FT pro is if they'd remember it. My friend won the National in Canada and US pre-1960. He then became a retriever trainer and won  the Retriever National FT just a few years later.

[jetjockey]

In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve.  For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something.  You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have.  As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title.  Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see.  I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.

[st8uppointers]

I ff ALL my dogs!

[Happy Gilmore]

In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve.  For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something.  You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have.  As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title.  Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see.  I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.

I dog that doesn't point then, retrieve shot game just isn't finished in my opinion. You are required to win a single retrieving stake in the dogs' field career although, my understanding is that it is just a single time and never required again.

At the AKC hunt test senior hunter and master hunter level, each bird shot over the dog in the bird field must be retrieved to hand. In addition to being steady to shot. I am also talking about AKC Pointer Field trials regarding past rules.

[Happy Gilmore]

In American Field dogs have never been required to retrieve.  For the winningest trainer at AF Nationals to have FF'd everyone of his dogs says something.  You also can't group all Field Trial dogs together like you have.  As far as I know all the versatiles are required to win a retrieving trial to win their Field Champion title.  Typically the AKC Gun Dog Nationals has both a retrieving and none retrieving stake. Believe me, those dogs that compete in the retrieving stake are as polished and finished as any hunting dog you will ever see.  I could easily run my un FF'd dog in the retrieving Nationals and she would be just fine.

Are you running any local AKC pointer field trials or AKC pointer hunt tests? There are about 7 AKC hunt tests in Fall City this spring, some AKC walking field trials south and an AKC field trial spring over in SUnnyside. I'll be there planting birds on horseback. Be fun to see some faces from here running their dogs in the FT or HT..