TO FORCE FETCH OR NOT TO FORCE FETCH? THAT IS THE QUESTION

[Happy Gilmore]

There are 7 (I think) pointer hunt tests this spring and early summer in Fall City. Will be a busy May and June. Hope to see you guys out here.

[scudmaster]

I did FF on both of my labs.  It makes it clear what I want them to do and they respond better know how to play the game.  To each their own, if your dog meets your expectations then not to worry, For me I will always FF so the dog is clear is a command as well as play. my 2cents

[JJD]

200 yards? Jesus! What kindof duck hunter are you? Sky bust much? My gun is only good to about 50 yards bud! And I've worked to about 100 yards or so! No need to go any farther!

Foulweather25

What    You sure have come to some strange conclusions.  What are they based on?

others;
Whether to FF (force fetch) or not depends on where you want to take your dog in training.  If you are happy with very basic retriever work, then it may not be worth the time or $ you put in to it.   The lion’s share of pro trainers FF because they want results as quickly as possible, it’s what they are paid to do.   FF is a means to that end.
Picking up whatever you tell your dog to pick up is simply a side effect of FF, not its primary goal.  Its main goal is to take a dog from retrieving being just a game, to retrieving being a serious job.  If done properly, with care, most dogs entire attitude will change and training in general will be easier and more enjoyable. Dog’s most often take instruction better and are more attentive, ie; they listen.  In conditions I hunt in, having my dogs follow instruction may be a matter of life or death.  My dogs have never lost any desire to retrieve as a result of FF.  As a matter of fact, it intensifies.   
FF’ing  dogs as soon as their permanent teeth are in is much easier than FF’ing an older dog.  If "you" are going to do it, do it when dog is young.  If this is not possible, a pro trainer might be the better choice.  As well, if you should decide to have a pro do it, younger will likely take less time and will be cheaper.
Understand what you are doing before you attempt it or it will become an exercise in frustration for both you and your dog.   This is true for all training.  There are a number of excellent training books out there.  Do some honest soul searching, are you a patient person or do you have a bit of a temper?  If you tend to get frustrated, a pro might be a better choice.
 
If you want Test / Trial titles on your dog’s name for breeding purposes, then I believe FF is essential.

I have FF a fair number of dogs and hunted over both FF and non FF dogs.  I am NOT a pro trainer, nor do I have any aspirations of becoming one.

Wind at your back . . . 
JJD

[Fowlweather25]

Strange conclusions? Why, because I shoot birds at an ethical range? Therefore my dog doesn't make retrieves past 100 yards at the most!? They are based on hunting time and training time with my dog! What the hell else would they be based on? Just because I'm not a yupee bird hunter and don't do everything your way doesn't mean I'm wrong! And if you're going to address me by my screen name at least spell it right!

[Happy Gilmore]

One of the most basic of all training premises, no matter what you train for, foot ball, soccer, tennis, fishing, hunting, etc, etc...

You "train" for much more difficult scenarios than what you are expected to encounter when pursuing your given goal. If you shoot archery, you go to a 3-d shoot and shoot the smoker round because it is not only fun but, challenges you to bring your game up a level.

When you train a dog, you might run 200-300 yard blinds every time because when you go hunting, you want your dog to be "UNDERWEALMED". Meaning the 100 yard retrieves are done swiftly and efficiently without any delay. If you only train 100 yard blinds and you go hunting, you'll likely have problems because of all the added "factors" which come into play. Multiple shots, drag back scent, wind, terrain, currents, etc, etc.

Fowl- I've gone back and read just about all your posts and you just seem like you're condecending, you ask a question, you don't like the answer so you pick and moan and come across as just a generally rude person. Comments in your posts about yuppy hunters etc, etc..... who are you directing those at? Us here who are having a pretty good conversation until you continue to try and sidetrack it?

You've shown in your posts how you feel about breeding, folks disagree, share some experience and knowledge and you just seem to get mad...... What's up? what is bothering you? Does it bother you a lot of folks do more testing before they breed dogs? Does it bother you that folks force fetch their dogs and get good results? I don't get it with you and what your beef is with being so snippy with everyone?

[Special T]

I've had a non FF and currently have one that is. Not much comparision. I would like to think of FF the first steps in trainning the dog a new language. Do any of you know sign language? You start off with the alphabet it is the base. That way you can spell out what you want to say. Most people don't spell but use other signs that mean the same thing.   FF provieds the alfabet for the dog. I've crippled birds that have sailed off a ways into brush past 100yards, that should have been a gimi drop dead bird. I don't consider a 40 yard shot skybusting...

[Fowlweather25]

I was the one who was condescended in the thread about me breeding my dog! Go back and read it again, this thread by calling my conclusions strange, all I did was give my opinion on force fetch training. you asked me I'd leave a bird to rot, insinuating that not only am I an unethical dog owner but now I'm an unethical hunter as well! So basically now you're judging me as a bad person because I asked an opinion on doing something that you whole heartedly disagree with! Aren't you the one who brought my dog up again in a condescending manner in my thread about a vasectomy? Hmmmm, but I'm the condescending one? I'm not trying to be rude but don't talk down to me because you don't agree with my opinion! It pisses me off! And don't call me condescending when you've been the same way! It's called Hipocracy!

[Happy Gilmore]

I was the one who was condescended in the thread about me breeding my dog! Go back and read it again, this thread by calling my conclusions strange, all I did was give my opinion on force fetch training. you asked me I'd leave a bird to rot, insinuating that not only am I an unethical dog owner but now I'm an unethical hunter as well! So basically now you're judging me as a bad person because I asked an opinion on doing something that you whole heartedly disagree with! Aren't you the one who brought my dog up again in a condescending manner in my thread about a vasectomy? Hmmmm, but I'm the condescending one? I'm not trying to be rude but don't talk down to me because you don't agree with my opinion! It pisses me off! And don't call me condescending when you've been the same way! It's called Hipocracy!

when you make statements like you've made regarding "not caring" about breeding, call people yuppie hunters etc. etc. I think more than a couple people see you're lighting your own match stuck in the toe of your boot.

[Fowlweather25]

My concern with breeding my dog twice was not to become a puppy mill and have a large scale effect on the breed! My concern was to pass on my dogs amazing abilities! Without even knowing me I was called a lowly backyard breeder! You know what think what you want about me! Ill continue to breed my illigitimate dog and ruin the breed! And I'm not gonna force fetch train my dogs! Do you not strike back when someon offends you? I get pissed that people on this site get butthurt because some one has an opinion that differs from theirs! However when someone's opinion turns into puttin someone down, guess what I'm gonna fire back! Have a good day Happy Gilmore! I'm done with ya!

[Fowlweather25]

By the way, you addressed me to the argument in this thread not the other way around!

[JLS]

My concern with breeding my dog twice was not to become a puppy mill and have a large scale effect on the breed! My concern was to pass on my dogs amazing abilities! Without even knowing me I was called a lowly backyard breeder! You know what think what you want about me! Ill continue to breed my illigitimate dog and ruin the breed! And I'm not gonna force fetch train my dogs! Do you not strike back when someon offends you? I get pissed that people on this site get butthurt because some one has an opinion that differs from theirs! However when someone's opinion turns into puttin someone down, guess what I'm gonna fire back! Have a good day Happy Gilmore! I'm done with ya!

If you're going to pass on your dogs amazing abilities, please test him to ensure you don't pass on any amazing genetic diseases.  One of my best friends is a "breeder" and had a litter of pups where several went blind at 4-6 months.  He is too cheap to pay for thorough testing.  I would never buy a dog from him.

[Happy Gilmore]

My concern with breeding my dog twice was not to become a puppy mill and have a large scale effect on the breed! My concern was to pass on my dogs amazing abilities! Without even knowing me I was called a lowly backyard breeder! You know what think what you want about me! Ill continue to breed my illigitimate dog and ruin the breed! And I'm not gonna force fetch train my dogs! Do you not strike back when someon offends you? I get pissed that people on this site get butthurt because some one has an opinion that differs from theirs! However when someone's opinion turns into puttin someone down, guess what I'm gonna fire back! Have a good day Happy Gilmore! I'm done with ya!

If you're going to pass on your dogs amazing abilities, please test him to ensure you don't pass on any amazing genetic diseases.  One of my best friends is a "breeder" and had a litter of pups where several went blind at 4-6 months.  He is too cheap to pay for thorough testing.  I would never buy a dog from him.

Quotes......One quote per reply.

"I don't give two craps about improving the breed! One breeder isn't gonna do that"

" I guess a lot of people pay more for the name"
"but I'm not one of them and if you knew anything about sunny view kennels you would know they produce champion dogs!"

"I understand that OFA is a minimum that being said it's better than nothing."

"The female that we bred him to belongs to our very good friends. So as far as she goes we were set."

[Fowlweather25]

What are you trying to accomplish here? Are you trying to be a chump and make me look bad? Because you can't stand when someone disagrees with you?

[Fowlweather25]

My dog has been tested and passed. According to happy here OFA isn't good enough! His eyes hips and elbows all passed with flying colors!

[Special T]

This is getting out of hand... I would much rather It (the thread) stick to the topic, because i think its usefull..
Are there dogs that hunt good with no FF training? Yes
Do most dogs do what YOU want them to do with out it? Sometimes...
If you want a mediocre hunting dog, thats ok, its still much better than no dog... Some people have learned to enjoy watching the dogs work, and higher levels of training are part of the hunt. My dog will not do what Happies will, and i'm ok with that.
No need to get bent.