Post by: bobcat on February 19, 2012, 10:54:47 PM
Looking through the proposals I can't find this anywhere.
Has anyone else seen it in there somewhere?
Post by: Bigshooter on February 19, 2012, 11:40:06 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 19, 2012, 11:50:30 PM
Post by: bearpaw on February 20, 2012, 12:00:48 AM
However, this raises a question, would it be fair for a muzzy hunter to get an archery tag and hunt archery seasons instead of muzzy seasons?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 20, 2012, 12:25:46 AM
Post by: hoytem on February 20, 2012, 01:29:47 AM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 20, 2012, 01:54:04 AM
you already can hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season.
That is not correct, it is not legal. I have checked and asked many many times.
Post by: Camp David on February 20, 2012, 04:25:53 AM
That is not correct, it is not legal. I have checked and asked many many times.
[/quote]
:yeah: :yeah:
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 20, 2012, 05:20:05 AM
Post by: Lincoln4 on February 20, 2012, 06:54:46 AM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on February 20, 2012, 10:29:02 AM
Post by: Wildsau on February 20, 2012, 10:39:08 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
It's bad enough having to contend with Muzzies during late season. Nothing against Muzzy Hunters, but they hunt a lot different than Archery, as do MF. I have been sitting in a stand, during late season elk, and all of a sudden it sounded like WWIII had broken out. Too lound for my taste. Sorry.
You hunt with a muzzleloader during late season and don't like to contend with the other muzzleloader hunters? I don't get it? Why don't you switch to bow hunting then?
Post by: boneaddict on February 20, 2012, 10:47:35 AM
Quote
you already can hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season.
As stated 100% incorrect
They probably have kept it the way it is becasue of the arguements that would develope over which way is more primitive. You have Modern and you have your specific primitive.....
Post by: whacker1 on February 20, 2012, 10:50:26 AM
Post by: Bob33 on February 20, 2012, 10:53:49 AM
Both deer and elk now specify that archery equipment ("bow and arrow" for elk) are legal. However, there is conflicting information for deer since it states that hunting method is "muzzleloader only". When the final regulations come out I suspect this will be cleaned up.
MUZZLELOADER DEER SEASONS
Hunting Method: Muzzleloader only.
Special Notes: Muzzleloader tag holders can only hunt during muzzleloader seasons and must hunt with muzzleloader equipment (WAC 232-12-051) or archery equipment (WAC 232-12-054).
Muzzleloader General Elk Seasons
Hunting Method: Muzzleloader as defined under WAC 232-12-051 or bow and arrow as defined under WAC 232-12-054.
Post by: Wildsau on February 20, 2012, 10:59:48 AM
It's bad enough having to contend with Muzzies during late season. Nothing against Muzzy Hunters, but they hunt a lot different than Archery, as do MF. I have been sitting in a stand, during late season elk, and all of a sudden it sounded like WWIII had broken out. Too lound for my taste. Sorry.
You hunt with a muzzleloader during late season and don't like to contend with the other muzzleloader hunters? I don't get it? Why don't you switch to bow hunting then?
Bobcat, have another cup of coffee and re-read what I wrote. Having to contend with Muzzies has to mean that I am not a Muzzy Hunter. In fact I don't have any MFa or MLs, here in the USA; they are all in Germany. I hunt, here, with my bow. I would hunt Europe with my bow, but most countries don't allow it; yet. ;)
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 11:02:59 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 11:04:47 AM
It's bad enough having to contend with Muzzies during late season. Nothing against Muzzy Hunters, but they hunt a lot different than Archery, as do MF. I have been sitting in a stand, during late season elk, and all of a sudden it sounded like WWIII had broken out. Too lound for my taste. Sorry.
You hunt with a muzzleloader during late season and don't like to contend with the other muzzleloader hunters? I don't get it? Why don't you switch to bow hunting then?
Bobcat, have another cup of coffee and re-read what I wrote. Having to contend with Muzzies has to mean that I am not a Muzzy Hunter. In fact I don't have any MFa or MLs, here in the USA; they are all in Germany. I hunt, here, with my bow. I would hunt Europe with my bow, but most countries don't allow it; yet. ;)
How did you know I've only had one cup of coffee? :chuckle:
Sorry but I still don't really get what you're saying. If you hunt archery season how do the muzzleloader hunters affect you? Is the unit you hunt open for both at the same time?
Post by: Bob33 on February 20, 2012, 11:07:42 AM
Thanks Bob, I guess I didn't look close enough. That will be great for me. I can purchase a muzzleloader tag, and hunt the private property during muzzleloader season with my bow. That helps in my decision as to whether or not to apply for the multi-season deer tag. I think this just saved me $180.You can send the $180 check to me. Heck - I'll even be nice and accept just half of it. :chuckle:
I think this is another case of WDFW listening to hunters. Good for them.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 20, 2012, 11:34:35 AM
Post by: Wildsau on February 20, 2012, 11:35:15 AM
Have, yet another cup of ocffee, drain out the first two, and re-read what I wrote. I wrote, "I have been sitting in a stand, during late season elk".
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 11:38:08 AM
bobcat; it was easy to see. Based on some of your other comments, on other threads, you weren't thinking clearly, yet.
Have, yet another cup of ocffee, drain out the first two, and re-read what I wrote. I wrote, "I have been sitting in a stand, during late season elk".
Seems you're the one needing a little more caffeine. You forgot to answer my question. Is the unit you hunt open for both archery and muzzleloader at the same time.? If not, what you're saying makes no sense.
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
So how many of the archers will be after multi-season tags? That gives them a lot of season--all of them actually. But at the same time I have to wonder how the seasons will shape up--currently the muzzy elk (early) units near me get really crowded--now mix in the archers. Hopefully they would open up a few more areas to spread the hunters around.
I doubt muzzleloader seasons would be any more crowded due to this. If a person is strictly a a bow hunter, they are still going to purchase an archery tag, and in that case, they will not be hunting during muzzleloader season.
Post by: Curly on February 20, 2012, 11:46:52 AM
So how many of the archers will be after multi-season tags? That gives them a lot of season--all of them actually. But at the same time I have to wonder how the seasons will shape up--currently the muzzy elk (early) units near me get really crowded--now mix in the archers. Hopefully they would open up a few more areas to spread the hunters around.
I doubt muzzleloader seasons would be any more crowded due to this. If a person is strictly a bow hunter, they are still going to purchase an archery tag, and in that case, they will not be hunting during muzzleloader season.
If they have a multi-season permit they will be hunting the muzzleloader season. I could see where some archers may not have a ML but could have a modern rifle so they would be hunting rifle seasons and archery seasons but skipping ML seasons; now those people will have the option of hunting all 3 seasons with their bow.
This decision could help increase multi-season permit sales.......(even though in your case it may cause you to not go with the ms permit; but your case is unusual I suspect).
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 20, 2012, 11:53:41 AM
Also, there is season overlap. GMU 621 allows all three tags in the wilderness during the high hunt, and I know 618 has late muzzy elk over the same days as late archery deer.
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 12:01:25 PM
Bobcat, I guess it would depend on how important it is to hunt closer to the rut or a specific GMU.
Also, there is season overlap. GMU 621 allows all three tags in the wilderness during the high hunt, and I know 618 has late muzzy elk over the same days as late archery deer.
Yes, everybody will have a different perspective on this depending on their particular situation. I could see this change making the multi-season tag more attractive to those who already hunt archery and modern firearm, but don't own a muzzleloader. It could make the $180 price tag a little easier to swallow, knowing that you'll get to hunt all three seasons, and not have to invest any money in muzzleloader equipment. Overall, I don't think this change will have any significant negative consequences.
Post by: bobcat on February 20, 2012, 12:33:23 PM
I don't agree with that thinking, but for those who don't like the early archery elk seasons, they will now be free to buy a muzzleloader tag and hunt the "better" season with a bow.
Post by: Curly on February 20, 2012, 12:48:57 PM
Post by: whacker1 on February 20, 2012, 02:19:29 PM
I don't like the proposal myself. There are so few ML units as it is and overcrowding (at least in elk season) that I don't like the idea of increasing any more numbers of hunters in the units. Now if WDFW would open up some more units to ML hunters I could get behind this idea. :twocents:
Do you think that many people will actually buy a muzzleloader tag to hunt in that unit with a bow. I see a few situations like bobcat's situation where it is limited to a bow by the landowner. But most of the time, it would be the same people utilizing a particular unit with the multi-season.
I just don't see large numbers of people buying a muzzleloader tag with the intention of hunting with a bow.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on February 20, 2012, 02:22:24 PM
Post by: Curly on February 20, 2012, 02:33:44 PM
I don't like the proposal myself. There are so few ML units as it is and overcrowding (at least in elk season) that I don't like the idea of increasing any more numbers of hunters in the units. Now if WDFW would open up some more units to ML hunters I could get behind this idea. :twocents:
Do you think that many people will actually buy a muzzleloader tag to hunt in that unit with a bow. I see a few situations like bobcat's situation where it is limited to a bow by the landowner. But most of the time, it would be the same people utilizing a particular unit with the multi-season.
I just don't see large numbers of people buying a muzzleloader tag with the intention of hunting with a bow.
I don't know but I always here bowhunters complaining about how ML seasons are the best for elk, but they don't want to switch to ML because they love bowhunting so much. I would expect that a bunch of those guys would want to switch.......... :dunno:
It is not one of the issues that I'm dead set with my opinion.........I sure won't be complaining to WDFW if they do make the change.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 20, 2012, 02:46:03 PM
Last look for elk: 25% bought archery tags, 12% bought ML tags, and 63% MF. I used numbers from harvest reports. I would wonder if enough people moved to another season if they would move season days over too.
Post by: dreamingbig on February 21, 2012, 07:38:09 AM
I was wondering how long it would take for this rule change to surface. I do think that it caters nicely to the multiple season permit.
Post by: Fullabull on February 23, 2012, 04:41:45 PM
Post by: et1702 on February 23, 2012, 04:58:00 PM
Post by: Jrzbullelk on February 28, 2012, 09:21:55 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 28, 2012, 11:05:57 AM
Sorry to change the subject a little but I wonder why they don't let people hunt with a crossbow during ML season any ideas :dunno:
It's probably just a question that's never been asked. If they start getting people asking for a change, then it might happen.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 28, 2012, 11:58:45 AM
Post by: deleted BGS on March 26, 2012, 10:49:15 PM
Post by: fair-chase on March 27, 2012, 12:02:57 AM
Big deal, isnt archery supposed to be harder than a ml anyway? I have done both and see nothing wrong with it, what reasons do you people not like this? I am curious to your reasons
Draw odds on quality ML permits will drop dramatically if this is allowed to happen. Currently muzzle loaders are the smallest user group by far, hence less competition for the draws. In addition if harvest levels increase during ML season as a result of archers joining in then I would expect the season to be shortened with fewer opportunities as well. Of course with the increased number of multi season tags available this is probably inevitable anyways.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 27, 2012, 12:16:28 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 27, 2012, 08:06:01 AM
Big deal, isnt archery supposed to be harder than a ml anyway? I have done both and see nothing wrong with it, what reasons do you people not like this? I am curious to your reasons
Draw odds on quality ML permits will drop dramatically if this is allowed to happen. Currently muzzle loaders are the smallest user group by far, hence less competition for the draws. In addition if harvest levels increase during ML season as a result of archers joining in then I would expect the season to be shortened with fewer opportunities as well. Of course with the increased number of multi season tags available this is probably inevitable anyways.
I sure wouldn't expect an increase in harvest success rates. Why would that happen? I could possibly see the harvest numbers increasing, if there is an increase in the number of hunters, but the success rate should not increase.
How many archery hunters are really going to buy a muzzleloader tag anyway? I don't think very many.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 27, 2012, 10:22:36 AM
The muzzleloader elk season is very intriguing especially if you hunt out of state for archery elk and then come back and hunt muzzie season in October with your bow. Another possible increase.
Post by: bobcat on March 27, 2012, 10:39:39 AM
Post by: TommyH on March 27, 2012, 12:58:09 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on March 27, 2012, 01:01:04 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 27, 2012, 01:05:30 PM
Currently the multi season ONLY allows muzzy gear during muzzy season. IF the proposal is accepted, then archery gear would be allowed in all the season, basically allowing a bowhunter to hunt Sep-Dec for deer or elk.
Post by: bobcat on March 27, 2012, 01:09:28 PM
basically allowing a bowhunter to hunt Sep-Dec for deer or elk.
You still could only hunt archery season, or muzzleloader season, not both.
(I think you know that but want to make sure others don't get the wrong idea)
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 27, 2012, 01:34:42 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 27, 2012, 07:22:37 PM
I didnt read all the pages of this post. Does it mean then that muzzy hunters get to hunt with muzzy during archery season too?Unfortunately no. Something to work on for the next round of proposals, though. That and crossbows.
Post by: deleted BGS on March 27, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
Post by: fair-chase on March 27, 2012, 07:52:44 PM
archery is a lesser method.
Says who??? If we are just speculating on what's more primitive I'll give my :twocents: but I don't see anywhere in the regs that currently quote archery as being a more primitive weapon.
Modern Inline Muzzleloader vs Longbow = Longbow wins for "lesser weapon"
Traditional Flintlock vs Bells and whistles compound = Muzzleloader wins for "lesser weapon"
All things being equal New Inline muzzle loader vs bells and whistles compound = tie
Im assuming you could hunt with a ml during rifle season?
Yes, you can hunt with both bows and muzzleloaders during the current rifle season.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 27, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on March 27, 2012, 09:04:22 PM
Archers can shoot fifty to sixty yards, the name of the game is to get close.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 27, 2012, 09:07:29 PM
I think this is just a gimmick from some disgruntled archers to get in on the late part of the rut. I hear alot of squawking from the archers about the early start date for their season. From everyone else's perspective we see it as gee! Those archers are lucky they get first crack at game before the critters start wising up. I think it would be ok for archers to hunt during ML if they revert to shooting the real wood and not the mechanical marvels that pass for bows these days. Shoot wood bows, arrows and feather fletching. Ill allow you a steel point tho. Does that sound fair?
I doubt they are disgruntled, probably more a long the line of wanting to hunt with there multi season tag and don't own a muzzleloader.
Post by: bobcat on March 27, 2012, 09:13:33 PM
Muzzleloaders can be a real hassle when it's pouring down rain every day.
Post by: Hawgdawg on March 27, 2012, 09:16:31 PM
I read somewhere that in the new proposals they were changing the rules so that you could hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season (with a muzzleloader tag of course).always been that way. Hunt with a bow during, ML or Modern if you have that tag. You go down a weapon but not up.
Looking through the proposals I can't find this anywhere.
Has anyone else seen it in there somewhere?
Post by: hughjorgan on March 27, 2012, 09:18:39 PM
I read somewhere that in the new proposals they were changing the rules so that you could hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season (with a muzzleloader tag of course).always been that way. Hunt with a bow during, ML or Modern if you have that tag. You go down a weapon but not up.
Looking through the proposals I can't find this anywhere.
Has anyone else seen it in there somewhere?
Negative. Was only that way for modern. Only thing you could hunt with during muzzy season was a muzzleloader
Post by: hughjorgan on March 27, 2012, 09:20:45 PM
On the westside, early season I would prefer a muzzleloader and late season, a bow.
Muzzleloaders can be a real hassle when it's pouring down rain every day.
Can't argue with there reliability when wet.
Post by: deleted BGS on March 27, 2012, 09:36:19 PM
archery is a lesser method.
Says who??? If we are just speculating on what's more primitive I'll give my :twocents: but I don't see anywhere in the regs that currently quote archery as being a more primitive weapon.
Modern Inline Muzzleloader vs Longbow = Longbow wins for "lesser weapon"
Traditional Flintlock vs Bells and whistles compound = Muzzleloader wins for "lesser weapon"
All things being equal New Inline muzzle loader vs bells and whistles compound = tieIm assuming you could hunt with a ml during rifle season?
Yes, you can hunt with both bows and muzzleloaders during the current rifle season.
I didnt mean that as my opinion, i meant it from the game dept perspective. I hate hunting with a ml too much can go wrong I prefer archery, thats why i sold my old bow and bought a new one and put the ml back in the closet
Post by: huntnnw on March 28, 2012, 06:22:54 AM
Post by: Curly on March 28, 2012, 08:33:28 AM
but u can hunt with a bow during a muzzy season on permit tags..I drew a permit muzzy bull tag in blues and the gamie in person told me to have at it :dunno:
I think the gamie was likely wrong.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 28, 2012, 01:00:20 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 12:09:18 PM
I urge all muzzy hunters to contact the WDFW director and voice your opposition to allowing archery equipment use during the regular ML season by anyone, except those who have purchased and have in their possession a multiseason permit, or watch the ML season become a joke.
Why would I do that when I don't oppose it?
If you believe the muzzleloader season is a "joke" then you have the option of buying an archery or modern firearm tag and hunting one of those seasons instead.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 12:19:17 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on March 29, 2012, 12:31:14 PM
I am a ML, the season will become irrelevant if archers get the opportunity to bypass their designated season in favor of the ML. Of course you wont oppose it if it works to your benefit. At the expense of another user group however. Archers in wash have always coveted the ML season and now they may have found a back door in. But like i said before, if you want to forgo the mechanicals and get back to the wood ONLY, they maybe i wouldnt be in opposition.
Why would an archer want to give up the 13 day early season and another 13 late season for elk, same goes for deer to take a 6 day muzzy season. More than likely very few people will buy that tag and hunt with archery gear. The guys you will see more than likely be.multiseason tag holders.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 12:51:16 PM
I am contacting you to express my dismay and displeasure in the proposed adoption of
WAC 232-12-054, which allows the use of archery equipment during the ML seasons for deer and elk. What is the intent here? Is WDFW attempting to reward archers with a super user choice? Is the intent to nullify the ML season? ML is going to be overrun with archers when they see that maybe its just going to be too hot to hunt in sept. Or maybe they just want to hunt the tail end of the rut? Archers have always coveted the ML season and now it looks like they have found a backdoor in. This WAC needs to be shelved and never see the light of day. I will say however that i am not in opposition to archers hunting during the ML season as long as they have in their possession a valid Multiseason permit. I would however like to see archers hunting during ML with the Multiseason tag use only traditional archery gear such as wood bows and wood arrows. Lets keep the spirit and intent of primitive seasons primitive.
Sincerely
Mr. (Washelkhunter) Real Name Here
Vancouver, Washington
Just emailed this to the Director of WDFW. If you Muzzy Hunters agree with it i invite you to copy and paste and send it to the director as well. Archers belong in the archery season and ML belong in the ML season. Send it to: director@dfw.wa.gov
Post by: Ridgerunner on March 29, 2012, 01:00:00 PM
Post by: Curly on March 29, 2012, 01:15:16 PM
Now, if ML's could get a bunch more units, then I wouldn't have a problem at all with the proposal. :twocents:
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 01:21:37 PM
Archers should not get to hunt during ML season with a bow. There likely won't be many who will buy a ML tag and hunt with a bow, since archers generally have the better units anyway. ML units are crowded enough, I wouldn't want to see any more people hunting them; but that said, I don't really feel strongly enough about the position to bother writing to WDFW aobut it.
Now, if ML's could get a bunch more units, then I wouldn't have a problem at all with the proposal. :twocents:
Well Curly you dont have to write the WDFW, i already did. Just copy and paste amigo. The ML season is being gutted by an administrative rule change. I know i didnt get a heads up in the mail to vote on this. Its sneaky and backhanded, disgraceful and shameful. This will effectively be the beginning of the end for ML season, such as it is.
Post by: Curly on March 29, 2012, 01:25:03 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 01:41:52 PM
This is not going to affect the muzzleloader season in any big way. All it will do is allow hunters a little more flexibility. Really, why would you care if someone with a ML tag chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader?
Post by: buglebuster on March 29, 2012, 01:47:37 PM
the downside to this, as stated above is why would i give up my 13 day season for a 6 day season? good point but when that 6 days is much better for calling a bull then the first 2 weeks of september ill take it but many people wont. Although, i have to say this current year may be a little late with the elk season starting on the 6th of october for elk. I dont think the muzzy hunters have anything to worry about with archery hunters taking over their season if this proposal passes :twocents:
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 02:08:08 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 02:10:27 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 02:11:50 PM
Whats the point of a ML season at all?
People like to go out in the woods and kill elk, and fill their freezers with meat.
A muzzleloader is one method of killing them.
Post by: buglebuster on March 29, 2012, 02:17:38 PM
:yeah:
People like to go out in the woods and kill elk, and fill their freezers with meat.
A muzzleloader is one method of killing them.
Whats the point of a ML season at all?
If there are any lawyers here, what would i have to do to get an injunction in place to suspend this WAC change until it can be heard by the legislature?sounds like you dont like archery hunters and by the looks of your avatar you dont like quads either? Do you agree with using camo and binoculars or are they an unfair advantage?
what is it gonna hurt allowing someone to carry a bow if they have to buy a muzzleloader tag in order to do it during that season? nothing!
Post by: Snapshot on March 29, 2012, 02:41:08 PM
Very likely this came about now that we are entering into the "Hunting the King's Deer" phase of wildlife management in Washington; deeper-pocketed men got torqued because they paid $180 for a multi-season tag but could not use it in the muzzleloader season. This will remove the little barrier to them being able to "buy" the additional opportunity.
It is all about the money.
Someone asked in the thread about why they can't use a crossbow in the rifle season: with a modern firearms tag you can but currently only in the firearm restriction zones. That could probably be expanded to areas outside the firearms restriction zones if someone wanted to work on it.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 29, 2012, 02:42:55 PM
Archers should not get to hunt during ML season with a bow. There likely won't be many who will buy a ML tag and hunt with a bow, since archers generally have the better units anyway. ML units are crowded enough, I wouldn't want to see any more people hunting them; but that said, I don't really feel strongly enough about the position to bother writing to WDFW aobut it.
Now, if ML's could get a bunch more units, then I wouldn't have a problem at all with the proposal. :twocents:
Well Curly you dont have to write the WDFW, i already did. Just copy and paste amigo. The ML season is being gutted by an administrative rule change. I know i didnt get a heads up in the mail to vote on this. Its sneaky and backhanded, disgraceful and shameful. This will effectively be the beginning of the end for ML season, such as it is.
No offense but I think you are late to the game. The commission votes next week. I raised the issue a few months ago.
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
Quote
No offense but I think you are late to the game.
:yeah:
See below:
Quote
2012 – 2014 Hunting Seasons and Regulations
The Department is considering rule making for the following: deer and elk seasons and permits; cougar seasons and regulations; black bear seasons and regulations; mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and moose seasons, permits, and regulations; game bird regulations; small game seasons; landowner hunting permit program; deer and elk area boundaries; game management units, special closures and firearm restriction areas; unlawful methods for hunting; hunting equipment rules; hunting at night; and other hunting regulations.
CR-101 - filed as WSR 11-24-102 on December 7, 2011
Invitation to discuss rules on this subject
CR-102 - filed as WSR 12-04-098 on February 1, 2012
Notice and opportunity to comment on this current rule-making proposal
Public Comment Period:
Written comments are due by February 21, 2012
Written comments may be e-mailed to: wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
or mailed to: WDFW Rules Coordinator, 600 Capitol Way N., Olympia, WA 98501
A public hearing will take place on March 9-10, 2012
Moses Lake Civic Center
401 S. Balsam
Moses Lake, Washington 98837
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development.html#11-24-102
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 03:05:40 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 03:09:29 PM
:yeah:
People like to go out in the woods and kill elk, and fill their freezers with meat.
A muzzleloader is one method of killing them.Whats the point of a ML season at all?If there are any lawyers here, what would i have to do to get an injunction in place to suspend this WAC change until it can be heard by the legislature?sounds like you dont like archery hunters and by the looks of your avatar you dont like quads either? Do you agree with using camo and binoculars or are they an unfair advantage?
what is it gonna hurt allowing someone to carry a bow if they have to buy a muzzleloader tag in order to do it during that season? nothing!
Instead of walking all the way around the barn, why not just answer the question: What is the point then of the ML season?
Post by: dreamingbig on March 29, 2012, 03:40:58 PM
Never too late brother. If this WAC is adopted it will effectively abolish the intent of the ML season. Seems like the wildlife and enviro groups always get their injunctions. Maybe my allies are on that side of the fence. As much as it would turn my stomach to ask for help from the like perhaps the enemy of my enemy is my friend.Do you feel the same way about modern firearm season? Should muzzleloaders be allowed then? Also what about the rut hunts for modern firearm only? How come they aren't available for all user groups. The answer is that logic doesn't win out. They listen to money and buy allowing archery in muzzle season it makes the multiple season permits more attractive. And it is my opinion that they haven't thought through all of the impacts. Good luck.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 29, 2012, 03:43:54 PM
:yeah:
People like to go out in the woods and kill elk, and fill their freezers with meat.
A muzzleloader is one method of killing them.Whats the point of a ML season at all?If there are any lawyers here, what would i have to do to get an injunction in place to suspend this WAC change until it can be heard by the legislature?sounds like you dont like archery hunters and by the looks of your avatar you dont like quads either? Do you agree with using camo and binoculars or are they an unfair advantage?
what is it gonna hurt allowing someone to carry a bow if they have to buy a muzzleloader tag in order to do it during that season? nothing!
Instead of walking all the way around the barn, why not just answer the question: What is the point then of the ML season?
Why don't you tell us what the point is because it seems to me it is a choice and opportunity of a way to hunt.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 03:54:46 PM
My name is . I am contacting you to ask for your help in seeing that
WAC 232-12-054 pertaining to the Wash Dept of Fish and Wildlife NOT be adopted. I am a
long time Wash state muzzleloading hunter and wish to see that the original intent of the ML season remains in effect. This new WAC if adopted will allow archery hunters to use archery equipment during the ML (only) season. This season is in place for the ML communtity; not the archers, they have their own very generous season which ML are not permitted to hunt in. This is some sort of access grab that cannot and should not be allowed to occur irregardless of whatever lame (archery is primitive too) arguement presented. There is a non issue which the Multiseason permit buyers are presenting that runs along the line of, well im an archer and thus i have the MS permit i should be able to hunt ML season using my bow. It seems to me that if your going to bother to apply for and win the MS permit then you should be prepared to hunt those seasons in the manner and spirit with which they were created for. Its ML season; hunt with a muzzleloader and dont make excuses about why you dont own one. I would be very grateful if you would contact the Director of the WDFW, Mr. Anderson and express to him the concerns we muzzleloaders have in this matter.
Thank You
Mr.
Vancouver, Wa
I just sent this out to my State Senator and Representatives in the 17th district. Feel free to copy and paste and send out to your local politicians. Thank You.
Post by: et1702 on March 29, 2012, 04:05:11 PM
:yeah:
People like to go out in the woods and kill elk, and fill their freezers with meat.
A muzzleloader is one method of killing them.Whats the point of a ML season at all?If there are any lawyers here, what would i have to do to get an injunction in place to suspend this WAC change until it can be heard by the legislature?sounds like you dont like archery hunters and by the looks of your avatar you dont like quads either? Do you agree with using camo and binoculars or are they an unfair advantage?
what is it gonna hurt allowing someone to carry a bow if they have to buy a muzzleloader tag in order to do it during that season? nothing!
Instead of walking all the way around the barn, why not just answer the question: What is the point then of the ML season?
Really...I don't understand your opposition? They are just making the regs consistent. If you want to hunt more or different units, you can already hunt Modern rifle season w/ML if you want too (w/Modern tag). Archers can hunt the Modern season too (w/Modern tag). If you buy a ML tag, you should have the option to hunt with a more primitive weapon than a ML. Even w/Mech bows, you still have the advantage (100 to 150yrds vs 40 to 50yrds). Plus, most archers aren't going to give up 1/2 their season to go during ML. So, not sure what all the agnst is about!
ET
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
I just sent this out to my State Senator and Representatives in the 17th district. Feel free to copy and paste and send out to your local politicians. Thank You.
I don't think politicians are going to care much about this issue, if at all. My guess is they have more important things to worry about. Especially when this is such a NON-issue.
Post by: et1702 on March 29, 2012, 04:19:16 PM
I just sent this out to my State Senator and Representatives in the 17th district. Feel free to copy and paste and send out to your local politicians. Thank You.
I don't think politicians are going to care much about this issue, if at all. My guess is they have more important things to worry about. Especially when this is such a NON-issue.
:yeah:
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 04:32:24 PM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on March 29, 2012, 04:44:26 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 04:51:20 PM
I just sent this out to my State Senator and Representatives in the 17th district. Feel free to copy and paste and send out to your local politicians. Thank You.
I don't think politicians are going to care much about this issue, if at all. My guess is they have more important things to worry about. Especially when this is such a NON-issue.
:yeah:
The number one rule in politics is; the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 04:58:46 PM
As far as I know u can always use a lesser weapon in season. If u have rifle tag u could hunt with bow ext..
Only during modern firearm season. Muzzleloader has always been only muzzleloaders and archery only archery.
The question is, which is "lesser"? A bow or a muzzleloader? I don't think there's a definitive answer for that question.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 29, 2012, 04:58:54 PM
I just sent this out to my State Senator and Representatives in the 17th district. Feel free to copy and paste and send out to your local politicians. Thank You.
I don't think politicians are going to care much about this issue, if at all. My guess is they have more important things to worry about. Especially when this is such a NON-issue.
:yeah:
The number one rule in politics is; the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Your one of how many muzzleloaders? I doubt they are going to give your opinion much more than a second look.
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 05:01:39 PM
The number one rule in politics is; the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
But you weren't sqeaky enough, and you didn't squeak at the right time. They had a public comment period on all the proposed hunting regulations for 2012-2014.
That comment period ended on February 21 so you're over a month past the deadline.
Follow the rules set forth by the rule makers, or you won't be getting any grease.
Post by: BAR C3 on March 29, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
Although there seasons are shorter, there elk season is by far the best. If you have hunted the first week of October in Eastern Washington, you know what I'm talking about. If I was going to continue to hunt Washington for elk, I would buy a muzzleloader tag every year and hunt with my bow. I will burn my points for a last true archery hunt in this state and remain hunting other Western states that I have much better success in.
As far as deer season, I will be buying a muzzleloader tag. I cannot hunt on my property because it is open for muzzleloader during late hunt. Sorry muzzleloaders, but it's BS I can't hunt my own property. I have asked for years why I couldn't use a lesser weapon. The game department said because there was open bow units. Makes sense.
I see the applicants going up in Muzzleloader quality tags.
If you don't think that this isn't already decided, your mistaken. As several have said, the comment time has expired. I applaud you for putting in the effort. But there minds are made up most of the time anyway and I'm sure there is some big push behind it. Not sure what, but they don't change things because it makes sense.
Post by: Curly on March 29, 2012, 06:04:57 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 07:23:28 PM
And there are 6000 ML in wash so i think we have some influence.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 29, 2012, 07:26:11 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 07:32:35 PM
Well like i said i can always push for an injunction to halt the rule. It may come to that and thats ok, should prove to be interesting either way, but i do not believe that the proposed rule change will stand.
And there are 6000 ML in wash so i think we have some influence.
Nope, sorry, you're not going to have any influence. Like I said, there was a deadline for public comment, and you missed that.
I am a muzzleloader hunter, and have been for 28 years. I'm not against this change so what makes you think all muzzleloader hunters will be?
Post by: BAR C3 on March 29, 2012, 07:40:52 PM
The big push behind it is undoubtedly the money they will get from the Multi-season permits. More archery guys will apply for multi-season permit now that they can hunt with their bows. :twocents:Good point! Did not think of that.
Why anyone puts in for the multi season is beyond me. You could spend alittle more money and still get a better hunt in Idaho or Montana. Lets see Montana hunting goes from first week of September through end of November. There is a one week break in mid October. You get all of rut for deer and elk!!
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 08:09:01 PM
Post by: fair-chase on March 29, 2012, 08:13:47 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 08:19:23 PM
Need some help with this. I followed up the WAC cited in the proposed regs (WAC 232-12-054) and it only leads to rules regarding special use permits (AKA handicap or hunters with disabilities). So is this proposal only for those meeting disability requirements, or is there another section that I am missing???
Here's a post from over a month ago (earlier in this same thread) that has the new wording:
It's not just hearsay. Read the proposed regulations here: http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2012/wsr_12-04-098.pdf
Both deer and elk now specify that archery equipment ("bow and arrow" for elk) are legal. However, there is conflicting information for deer since it states that hunting method is "muzzleloader only". When the final regulations come out I suspect this will be cleaned up.
MUZZLELOADER DEER SEASONS
Hunting Method: Muzzleloader only.
Special Notes: Muzzleloader tag holders can only hunt during muzzleloader seasons and must hunt with muzzleloader equipment (WAC 232-12-051) or archery equipment (WAC 232-12-054).
Muzzleloader General Elk Seasons
Hunting Method: Muzzleloader as defined under WAC 232-12-051 or bow and arrow as defined under WAC 232-12-054.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 08:27:25 PM
Special Notes: Muzzleloader tag holders can only hunt during
muzzleloader seasons and must hunt with muzzleloader equipment (WAC
232-12-051) or archery equipment (WAC 232-12-054).
Does WAC just designate what "class of equipment is acceptable".
Post by: fair-chase on March 29, 2012, 08:37:50 PM
Sending out emails and calls in the morning Washelkhunter.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 29, 2012, 08:45:17 PM
Yeah, I was reading the same thing. Somehow I was thinking that the WAC cited after "or archer equipment" was a direct reference to the rule change itself. I think it's time for bed when I can read the exact same thing and not comprehend it. :bash: :chuckle:
Sending out emails and calls in the morning Washelkhunter.
Right on Dude! And thank you again. Im all about fair chase. :tup:
Post by: BAR C3 on March 29, 2012, 09:02:18 PM
Look if they are going to allow archery into ML then we might as well do away with the 3 seasons right? Im ok with that. lets go back to the way it used to be back in the day. Hunt the last week of oct and the first 2 weeks of nov for both deer and elk; and you hunt with whatever weapon you want. hunt with a friggin spear for all i care. But given the way it is now. Choose your weapon and stay in the designated season! Stop trying to poach the other guys time. Its unnecessary and its down right selfish. I wont have any influence? I already am and because i care about it i will win on behalf of the ML community. This encroachment is just plain wrong and frankly i would expect a universal rejection of such by the upstanding archers in this state. You are out there am i right?Not sure who your directing this at, but I don't agree with it. I think it's BS. I don't support anything this game department does. They manage people not game. As far as me poaching your time, no worries! I will hunt in my backyard if this passes. I will screw myself for hunting in some other areas, but with gas as much as it is, I will take what I can get. I'm just stating facts. I know guys will take advantage of your dates. I was a muzzleloader and when they started taking hunting time, I went to archery. Alot less archers then. Now everyone watches these hunting show thinking Lee and Tiffany, Primos and etc.. are out hunting hard for these trophies. Everyone bought a bow. You guys probably have the least amount of hunters until the game department pulled this.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 29, 2012, 09:45:34 PM
Yeah, I was reading the same thing. Somehow I was thinking that the WAC cited after "or archer equipment" was a direct reference to the rule change itself. I think it's time for bed when I can read the exact same thing and not comprehend it. :bash: :chuckle:. I still don't know how you guys didn't see this when it first came out? :dunno:
Sending out emails and calls in the morning Washelkhunter.
Post by: Snapshot on March 29, 2012, 10:05:13 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2012, 10:05:59 PM
Yeah, I was reading the same thing. Somehow I was thinking that the WAC cited after "or archer equipment" was a direct reference to the rule change itself. I think it's time for bed when I can read the exact same thing and not comprehend it. :bash: :chuckle:. I still don't know how you guys didn't see this when it first came out? :dunno:
Sending out emails and calls in the morning Washelkhunter.
You might notice that I started this thread on February 19th. I didn't see washelkhunter post anything in this thread until today! And now it's 5 weeks past the deadline to provide public comments, and he wants to send in his complaints. :dunno:
Post by: washelkhunter on March 30, 2012, 11:33:38 AM
Can you say, "Head in the sand"?
Can you say full time employment and better things to do than try to be parasites on another user groups allocated season!
Bobcat. In the future we would all appreciate your putting a deadline for response on your new threads. That way those of us who attempt to join in can just be shut out and not have to risk stepping on anyones delicate toes. Thank you.
Post by: ing on March 30, 2012, 11:52:27 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2012, 12:13:45 PM
Bobcat. In the future we would all appreciate your putting a deadline for response on your new threads. That way those of us who attempt to join in can just be shut out and not have to risk stepping on anyones delicate toes. Thank you.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying but you're free to post in this thread whenever you want. Bring it back up to the top 6 months from now if you want, and post in it again. What I found funny is that February 21st was the deadline for public comments on the 2012-2014 hunting seasons and rules. Today is March 30th and you are wanting to write letters to the WDFW and various politicians regarding this issue.
I don't know how I can make it any more clear: YOU MISSED THE DEADLINE!
Post by: Snapshot on March 30, 2012, 12:19:55 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2012, 12:27:43 PM
Never was I more busy defending hunting opportunity
I'm not sure what your position is on this particular issue, if you've said I don't recall- But, here they are giving us hunters MORE opportunity and some want to complain about it. The WDFW has a tough job because no matter what they do, people are going to complain.
This was done, I am sure, because hunters requested it. I've read many complaints on here in the past from people that didn't like that they couldn't use their archery equipment during muzzleloader season. The WDFW listened to those people and made a change for only one reason- it is what their "customers" wanted. It's kind of hard to fault them for that.
Post by: Snapshot on March 30, 2012, 01:49:13 PM
True, the department is damned if they do, damned if they don't, because they can't please everyone. And I believe you are right that they are simply catering to their top-dollar customers.
Post by: washelkhunter on March 30, 2012, 02:12:29 PM
(I'm not sure I get what you're saying but you're free to post in this thread whenever you want. Bring it back up to the top 6 months from now if you want, and post in it again. What I found funny is that February 21st was the deadline for public comments on the 2012-2014 hunting seasons and rules. Today is March 30th and you are wanting to write letters to the WDFW and various politicians regarding this issue.
I don't know how I can make it any more clear: YOU MISSED THE DEADLINE)
I may have missed the official comment period but i still have time to change this misguided addition. Why because the regs have yet to be published, and even if they are i can still halt it afterwards for further review hopefully by the legislature. ML season is for ML's period. If you archers really want to open a can of worms maybe well just ask for a quid pro quo. Im a ML and im disabled and i want to hunt archery season. I guess you archers will be cool with that right?
Post by: dreamingbig on March 30, 2012, 02:21:54 PM
Im a ML and im disabled and i want to hunt archery season. I guess you archers will be cool with that right?
Sure, you are welcome to pick up a bow or a cross bow (since you are disabled) and join us! I think the spirit is that you should be allowed to hunt with an equal or lesser weapon than the season provided. The archery members on the GMAC did not push for this change to happen so it is unclear where it came from. My best gues is that they thought it would provide incentive for more archery hunters to apply for the multiple season tag as most archery hunters won't hunt with a muzzleloader or rifle. Some do but the majority will not.
For your information, the process is the same every year with public comments due in Feburuary with meeting in March and final in early April. Mark your calendar now for next year! Good luck getting anything to change at this time.
Post by: Curly on March 30, 2012, 02:26:38 PM
I sent a letter before on an issue and they acknowledged that it was after the public comment period but they did say they would read it anyway. Of course they had already made up their minds (but I think they had already made them up prior to the public even being made aware of the issue) and my letter did no good anyway IMO.
I think that if you miss the deadline, the only thing is that your comments won't be added to anything official, but if you can make a good enough case, you may be able to change a commisioner or two's mind.. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2012, 02:31:11 PM
Quote
What i find confusing is that you have the nerve to backhand me for being proactive on an issue that concerns ML. I reread all the posts and you didnt bother to mention a deadline until the middle of page 5.
I didn't mention a deadline because this thread wasn't about protesting the change. I think the problem is you are assuming everyone who hunts with a muzzleloader is against this. How did you determine this?
You say you are a muzzleloader. It's you against the "archers." Well I'm just a hunter. So I don't have to pick sides. I hunt with all three methods, and to me this change just allows more flexibility. Like I said, with my archery deer tag and my muzzleloader elk tag this year, I can hunt the late season with my bow, and be legal for both deer and elk at the same time.
It also will allow people to hunt in firearm restricted zones with a bow, but during muzzleloader season.
I just don't see a whole lot of people switching from archery elk season to muzzleloader elk season, like you seem to think will happen. The archery season is better, in my opinion, so why would they? And if they do, oh well. If I feel like the muzzleloader season is worse due to having too many people, I will buy an archery tag and hunt the archery season. You are free to do the same.
Post by: Curly on March 30, 2012, 02:34:38 PM
Like I said before, I don't really like this rule change but I'm not going to complain about it too much and not going to waste energy writing to the commission. There really isn't many good ML units anyway so you're not going to see archery guys flocking to hunt ML seasons. I think you will see a little bit of an increase in them getting the Multi permits.
Post by: Snapshot on March 30, 2012, 03:09:25 PM
(...If you archers really want to open a can of worms maybe well just ask for a quid pro quo....
I seriously doubt it was dedicated archery hunters who asked for this change. I don't know a single one who would ask it and I know hundreds of them; it never has come up even once that I recall. No, I think it was guys who don't give a hoot about what weapon they are carrying so long as they are hunting. So that makes it the multi-season tag buyers who stand to gain by it. Since the state came up with this way to raise more money and the winners of the tag shell out an extra $180 or whatever it amounts to...I suspect some of them complained about having to buy both a muzzleloader and a compound in order to take advantage of the multi-tag...
Post by: Kowsrule30 on March 30, 2012, 03:13:52 PM
IMO it will screw the draw odds up quite a bit for quality.... Last year in a unit I recall there were 7 or 8 quality tags.... @ 700 apps... For archery in the same unit I think they gave out 24!!!! With less than 600 apps... Plus cow tags which you'll have to apply for now... (I think a bunch of gmu's are over the counter cow for archery) And am assuming you don't draw the tag you'll just use the ml anyways.... Or even if you do.... Why chance it.... :twocents:
Post by: washelkhunter on March 31, 2012, 08:15:35 AM
As a long time resident Muzzleloader (ML) I am concerned about the proposed addition of archers into the ML deer and elk seasons as inserted into the proposed 2012-14 regulations. I am dismayed as to why this additional user group in a longtime traditionally ML equipment only hunt has been included and am seeking clarification and the removal of said user group. I do not believe that the ML coummunity has had ample notification or time
to express our concerns about this encroachment and erosion of our historical season. I can think of no valid reason whatsoever why archers should be given access to the ML season. I would appreciate a timely and personal response from all of you on this matter and look forward to discussing it with you.
Thank You
Good Morning All. I just sent the above message to the director and commissioners of WDFW. If you agree with it please feel free to copy and send out
yourselves to: director@dfw.wa.gov and commission@dfw.wa.gov
Post by: Hindtit on April 02, 2012, 09:33:52 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 03, 2012, 08:29:58 AM
Post by: Snapshot on April 03, 2012, 08:37:43 AM
I think they are afraid of competition and the impact on draw odds. Who wouldn't complain if a good thing gets slightly less good? All user groups are facing increased competition and participation by the increase in the multi-season permits.The multi-tag withers hope that American society won't one day place hunting where Europeans put it decades (if not centuries) ago; into the hands of the wealthier citizens, to the detriment of those less well off...
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 08:45:37 AM
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season? Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive. Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.
Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.
Post by: TommyH on April 03, 2012, 10:14:19 AM
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season? Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive. Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.
Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.
A modern bow is less of a weapon than a M.L. My sons DAISY BB gun could get off 4-5 shots before an archer could take another shot, does that make the BB gun more of a weapon? A M.L. can shoot at more than triple the distance of bow in most hunting situations.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 10:39:21 AM
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season? Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive. Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.
Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.
A modern bow is less of a weapon than a M.L. My sons DAISY BB gun could get off 4-5 shots before an archer could take another shot, does that make the BB gun more of a weapon? A M.L. can shoot at more than triple the distance of bow in most hunting situations.
I'm giving you the reasoning behind why they're not allowed. BB guns are not allowed during any season. Bad analogy. I'm not defending the prohibited use, just reporting. Go get mad at the DFW, not me.
Post by: Sabotloader on April 03, 2012, 11:28:29 AM
1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?
2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?
3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?
I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...
Just asking
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 11:34:13 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on April 03, 2012, 11:40:00 AM
Never was I more busy defending hunting opportunity than when I was not only working my full-time job but also raising up my two kids (now both in their twenties and living elsewhere), taking them places & being there for them. I was sleeping damn little largely because I didn't grow apathetic towards paying attention to what was going on in the world of hunting politics. I threw out that "head in the sand" remark because I've long observed that most hunters are completely apathetic towards this sort of thing until they get bit in the butt. And even then most just complain about it after the fact. I commend that you've rolled your sleeves up and taken some action; and yet I won't be surprised if the response that comes back is something like, "The public comment period was run according to law and is closed on the matter."
:yeah: well said
Post by: Holg3107 on April 03, 2012, 11:51:13 AM
Quote
My question in all of this is...
1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?
2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?
3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?
I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...
Just asking
Please read the regs. Here are the answers to your questions.
1: Bowhunters have a completely separate season as of right now. As far as days in the woods I believe that the current archery season is a bit longer.
2: No
3: The only way a hunter can hunt multiple seasons is with a multi season permit that is draw only. In that case the person could hunt an OTC season with the allowed weapons during said season. This would allow archers to hunt the muzzle loader season with a bow just like you can use a muzzle loader or bow during the "any weapon" season (rifle season). You cannot use a muzzle loader during archery because it is not considered a lesser weapon (this is where the argument occurs).
I hope this helps, this is really going to only apply to those with a multi season permit and a select few who decide to apply for muzzle loader permits and chose to hunt it with a bow (which I believe will be minimal).
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2012, 11:53:09 AM
My question in all of this is...
1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?
2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?
3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?
I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...
Just asking
In Washington we have archery tags, muzzleloder tags, and modern firearm tags. A hunter must choose only one for deer, and one for elk. So if a person has a muzzleloader tag, they can only hunt during the muzzleloader season. Some with an archery, those with an archery tag only hunt the archery season. The only thing that is changing here is that the person with the muzzleloader tag can now use his muzzleloader, OR his bow, during that muzzleloader season.
Post by: Bean Counter on April 03, 2012, 11:57:51 AM
Post by: Snapshot on April 03, 2012, 11:59:30 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on April 03, 2012, 12:16:03 PM
:chuckle:
Post by: Sabotloader on April 03, 2012, 02:07:18 PM
My question in all of this is...
1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?
2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?
3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?
I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...
Just asking
In Washington we have archery tags, muzzleloder tags, and modern firearm tags. A hunter must choose only one for deer, and one for elk. So if a person has a muzzleloader tag, they can only hunt during the muzzleloader season. Some with an archery, those with an archery tag only hunt the archery season. The only thing that is changing here is that the person with the muzzleloader tag can now use his muzzleloader, OR his bow, during that muzzleloader season.
Sorry guys I am an Idaho hunter and not trying cause any problems, but if the highlighted sentence is correct, you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time. So if I read it correctly and it is correct, a person that opts for the archery tag can not then hunt the ML season, but a person that opts for a ML tag can hut with the weapon of choice, either ML or Archery????
Is that correct?
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 02:09:20 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 03, 2012, 02:58:16 PM
you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time.
Time will tell on this. The current method to hunting in washington is mostly 'pick a weapon' (unless you have multi-season). This proposal would allow archers to 'pick a season', as archery gear is already allowed in archery ( :o) and in modern. Muzzleloader hunters can hunt in muzzleloader or modern with their equipment, so they get two seasons to choose from like archers. Under this proposal, archers could choose from three seasons. Modern still gets one choice.
It MIGHT entice more archers into the season because of timing or GMU. If enough move over, MIGHT even get a few more GMUs opened up. Right now, muzzleloader (westside) tends to have a short (but nicely timed with the rut) season in the smallest number of GMUs. The last few years from my experience in early muzzy westside is it was the most crowded I've seen of all the seasons/weapons. I hear all kinds of stories about how horrible modern is, but just from my observation, early muzzy was probably 20 times (SWAG) more crowded....camps, trucks, bicycles, people...everywhere. So, if it is already crowded..then how many additional people make it really feel too crowded.
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2012, 03:14:29 PM
Then there is the fact that almost all of the very best elk units are open for archery, while the muzzleloader season only includes the mediocre to poor elk units.
And one last point, with an archery tag you get a late elk season, with muzzleloader, there are only a couple decent units on the westside for late season, and they are crowded, and there are virtually none open on the eastside of the state. The archery seasons include several of the best elk units on both sides of the state.
Post by: Sabotloader on April 03, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time.
Time will tell on this. The current method to hunting in washington is mostly 'pick a weapon' (unless you have multi-season). This proposal would allow archers to 'pick a season', as archery gear is already allowed in archery ( :o) and in modern. Muzzleloader hunters can hunt in muzzleloader or modern with their equipment, so they get two seasons to choose from like archers. Under this proposal, archers could choose from three seasons. Modern still gets one choice.
It MIGHT entice more archers into the season because of timing or GMU. If enough move over, MIGHT even get a few more GMUs opened up. Right now, muzzleloader (westside) tends to have a short (but nicely timed with the rut) season in the smallest number of GMUs. The last few years from my experience in early muzzy westside is it was the most crowded I've seen of all the seasons/weapons. I hear all kinds of stories about how horrible modern is, but just from my observation, early muzzy was probably 20 times (SWAG) more crowded....camps, trucks, bicycles, people...everywhere. So, if it is already crowded..then how many additional people make it really feel too crowded.
Thank you for the explanation - I think I now understand....
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 03:18:08 PM
And one last point, with an archery tag you get a late elk season, with muzzleloader, there are only a couple decent units on the westside for late season, and they are crowded, and there are virtually none open on the eastside of the state.
They close most of the archery units for late season, too. There's very little to hunt, at least down here in the SW corner anyway. Late season for archery isn't very good. I don't want to give it away, but it's quite limited.
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2012, 03:22:31 PM
Fall River, Bear River, Willapa Hills, Winston, Ryderwood.
If you can't find an elk in one of those units you're not looking hard enough.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2012, 03:31:05 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Then there is the fact that almost all of the very best elk units are open for archery, while the muzzleloader season only includes the mediocre to poor elk units.
I can think of a couple pretty good elk units (above mediocre) that are open to muzzleloader.
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 06:54:50 AM
Then there is the fact that almost all of the very best elk units are open for archery, while the muzzleloader season only includes the mediocre to poor elk units.
I can think of a couple pretty good elk units (above mediocre) that are open to muzzleloader.
Yes there are a couple, and of course that's where most people go to hunt, so you get to hunt with a primitive weapon in more crowded conditions than you would have during modern firearm season. In my experience anyway.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 08:24:04 AM
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 08:58:27 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 09:17:34 AM
1. How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?
2. Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate. Which group would have the better score?
3. Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time? Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.
Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow. I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.
:twocents:
Post by: et1702 on April 04, 2012, 09:35:39 AM
Grundy, I am not disagreeing with most of what you say. The one thing that I have a problem with is calling a modern compound equal to a muzzleloader. Others have stated this previously in the post and it is simply not true. To those that think it is I ask these questions?
1. How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?
2. Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate. Which group would have the better score?
3. Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time? Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.
Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow. I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.
:twocents:
:yeah: Modern Archery equipment is NOT equivilent to Modern Muzzleloaders! I practice w/my bow to 60yrds, but have never shot at an animal in the woods past 40yrds. I practice w/my muzzleloader out to 200yrds, but have never shot an animal much past 100yrds. It's a lot different in the woods than it is at the range for either group.
ET
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2012, 09:36:43 AM
Grundy, I am not disagreeing with most of what you say. The one thing that I have a problem with is calling a modern compound equal to a muzzleloader. Others have stated this previously in the post and it is simply not true. To those that think it is I ask these questions?
1. How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?
2. Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate. Which group would have the better score?
3. Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time? Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.
Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow. I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.
:twocents:
I didn't say that a compound is equal to a ML. I said that certain characteristics of modern compound bows are what made them restrict them from ML season.
But this whole conversation is a prime example of the actions of the DFW in the 80s that pit hunter against hunter. Once the seasons and weapons were separated, we became adversaries in our personal quests to have what's best for us. This is ridiculous.
The multi-season pass, as has been said before, ensures that people of means get to hunt whenever they want and that people of little means have to choose. The best thing we could do would be to stand together to have all seasons opened to all of us and eliminate the multi-season pass. If this means heavier restrictions in one unit or another, or different closures for different seasons, so be it. The major difference here is that the DFW has created a chink in the hunter's armor by turning us into individual groups instead of us being united as one. Our biggest obstacle in creating positive change for hunters in WA is being pitted against each other and being able to look past our own wished to the best interest of hunting as a whole. I think we should find a way out of these separate designations.
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 09:43:17 AM
Sorry but I just don't see the downside to this, and if I had to label myself I'd have to say I'm more of a muzzleloader hunter than an archery hunter. There are benefits to this in the flexibility it provides to ALL hunters. Say you have a friend, or relative, that you might want to hunt with one year, but the problem is you always hunt muzzleloder and he hunts archery. He doesn't want to buy a muzzleloader and you don't want to buy a bow, but you'd like to hunt together. Well now you can, you both buy muzzleloader tags and you hunt with your muzzleloader and he hunts with a bow.
I've posted this before, but I got permission to hunt some private property of which the landowner will only allow bow hunting. The unit it's in has both an early and a late muzzleloader season, which is what I wanted to hunt. There is an early archery season, but not late. So last year I bought a modern firearm tag and planned to hunt the property with a bow during modern firearm season. If bows would have been allowed during muzzleloader season last year, I could have done that instead, and had a lot more time to hunt that property.
So that's just a couple of examples of how this benefits hunters. I'm not sure how it has any negative effect on muzzleloader seasons, because if a person chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader, the distance he can take a shot is about half of what it would be with a muzzleloader (say 50 yards compared to 100). I hate to see the WDFW take criticism for something they are changing that benefits us, and doesn't cost any more money! Maybe the people complaining about this would be happier if they changed the names of the tags, so that instead of having archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm tags, we could have A tags, B tags, and C tags. (yes, kind of like Idaho)
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:00:19 AM
My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters. The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML.
But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
I think if we didn't define people as "bow hunters" or "muzzleloader hunters" this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Aren't we all just "hunters?" If a person who normally hunts with a bow, one year decides the muzzleloader season is more to his liking for whatever reason, he could buy a muzzleloader and a muzzleloader tag, and suddenly he is now a "muzzleloader hunter." The only difference now is he won't have to purchase a muzzleloader.
Sorry but I just don't see the downside to this, and if I had to label myself I'd have to say I'm more of a muzzleloader hunter than an archery hunter. There are benefits to this in the flexibility it provides to ALL hunters. Say you have a friend, or relative, that you might want to hunt with one year, but the problem is you always hunt muzzleloder and he hunts archery. He doesn't want to buy a muzzleloader and you don't want to buy a bow, but you'd like to hunt together. Well now you can, you both buy muzzleloader tags and you hunt with your muzzleloader and he hunts with a bow.
I've posted this before, but I got permission to hunt some private property of which the landowner will only allow bow hunting. The unit it's in has both an early and a late muzzleloader season, which is what I wanted to hunt. There is an early archery season, but not late. So last year I bought a modern firearm tag and planned to hunt the property with a bow during modern firearm season. If bows would have been allowed during muzzleloader season last year, I could have done that instead, and had a lot more time to hunt that property.
So that's just a couple of examples of how this benefits hunters. I'm not sure how it has any negative effect on muzzleloader seasons, because if a person chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader, the distance he can take a shot is about half of what it would be with a muzzleloader (say 50 yards compared to 100). I hate to see the WDFW take criticism for something they are changing that benefits us, and doesn't cost any more money! Maybe the people complaining about this would be happier if they changed the names of the tags, so that instead of having archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm tags, we could have A tags, B tags, and C tags. (yes, kind of like Idaho)
The downside (as I see it) would be more people hunting during that season. If some one buys the muzzy tag for the sole reason of using a bow and would have bought a bow season tag if this change wasn't instituted then they are adding pressure and crowding to that season. This bennefits bow hunters 2 ways. It gives them another season to choose from AND it relieves some of the pressure from their traditional season. The ONLY positives for muzzleloader hunters this are the two exaples you used (which numbers of these situations I bet are negligable).
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2012, 10:08:49 AM
My main complaint with the proposal is that it is obvious that it is only about money. If it was about providing more opportunity, then they could have changed it 10 - 15 years ago. They are only changing it now because of the multi-season guy that wants to hunt with his bow during all 3 weapon seasons.
My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters. The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML.
But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.
So then you would be fine with not being able to use a ML during modern, only during ML?
You may not be passionate about it, but I think it sucks that MLs are pissed at BHs and Modern are pissed at both. I think we should all have equal opportunity during all seasons. Most people only get a week or so off to hunt every year anyway. It's not going to create some huge vacuum into which our ungulates will fall. I think it might even help the overcrowding experienced during muzzle season because some would choose to hunt at other times.
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 10:12:28 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:13:38 AM
Quote
The downside (as I see it) would be more people hunting during that season. If some one buys the muzzy tag for the sole reason of using a bow and would have bought a bow season tag if this change wasn't instituted then they are adding pressure and crowding to that season.
This would also apply to the above quote:
Quote
(which numbers of these situations I bet are negligable).
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:13:59 AM
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 10:14:45 AM
Part of the challenge of ML hunting in W WA is getting your ML to fire. If I am camping out for a week in the pouring down rain for deer, I think maybe I'd prefer to use a bow so that I wouldn't have to worry about the ML not going off. The multi-season guys should have to experience the pluses and minuses of blackpowder hunting IMO. :twocents:I agree
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:15:52 AM
If I am camping out for a week in the pouring down rain for deer, I think maybe I'd prefer to use a bow so that I wouldn't have to worry about the ML not going off.
And now you can! :tup:
See, everyone benefits from this.
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:17:59 AM
My main complaint with the proposal is that it is obvious that it is only about money. If it was about providing more opportunity, then they could have changed it 10 - 15 years ago. They are only changing it now because of the multi-season guy that wants to hunt with his bow during all 3 weapon seasons.
My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters. The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML.
But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.
So then you would be fine with not being able to use a ML during modern, only during ML?
You may not be passionate about it, but I think it sucks that MLs are pissed at BHs and Modern are pissed at both. I think we should all have equal opportunity during all seasons. Most people only get a week or so off to hunt every year anyway. It's not going to create some huge vacuum into which our ungulates will fall. I think it might even help the overcrowding experienced during muzzle season because some would choose to hunt at other times.
No, I wouldn't be fine with not being able to use ML during modern. During modern season, archery equipment is allowed so ML equipment should be allowed too. Plus almost every GMU is open during modern so, overcrowding isn't really too much of an issue if you add a few more hunters.
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2012, 10:19:13 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:20:06 AM
Why wouldn't everyone just buy a C tag?
For the same reasons they don't buy a modern firearm tag now. :dunno:
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:20:12 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
I think they need to change it to primitive weapon season and allow flintlocks and longbows only. Just one season at the same time for blackpowder and longbows. :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 10:20:50 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
That changes nothing but the name of the season. All my arguments would still apply. The only thing I think that would even it out would be opening up more units for the "B/ Muzzleloader season".
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:21:55 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
I think they need to change it to primitive weapon season and allow flintlocks and longbows only. Just one season at the same time for blackpowder and longbows. :twocents:
That will never happen. How many people do you know who want to hunt with a flintlock or a non-compound bow?
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:23:17 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
I think they need to change it to primitive weapon season and allow flintlocks and longbows only. Just one season at the same time for blackpowder and longbows. :twocents:
That will never happen. How many people do you know who want to hunt with a flintlock or a non-compound bow?
I know it won't happen. I bet some would if they had seasons during the rut. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:24:15 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
That changes nothing but the name of the season. All my arguments would still apply. The only thing I think that would even it out would be opening up more units for the "B/ Muzzleloader season".
Well that seems to be the issue for some people. They say, it's called "muzzleloader season" so you should have to hunt with a muzzleloader. Just don't call it muzzleloader season anymore (since it isn't).
Doesn't Idaho have what they call a "short range weapon" season?
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:25:49 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
I think they need to change it to primitive weapon season and allow flintlocks and longbows only. Just one season at the same time for blackpowder and longbows. :twocents:
That will never happen. How many people do you know who want to hunt with a flintlock or a non-compound bow?
I know it won't happen. I bet some would if they had seasons during the rut. :twocents:
Maybe but would it be fair that the muzzleloaders and bows that people have invested money into would becomce worthless?
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:28:49 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
That changes nothing but the name of the season. All my arguments would still apply. The only thing I think that would even it out would be opening up more units for the "B/ Muzzleloader season".
Well that seems to be the issue for some people. They say, it's called "muzzleloader season" so you should have to hunt with a muzzleloader. Just don't call it muzzleloader season anymore (since it isn't).
Doesn't Idaho have what they call a "short range weapon" season?
In Idaho, do hunters have to pick their weapon. OR do they get to hunt every season and use the appropriate weapon for the season like we used to be able to do in this state 30 years ago?
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2012, 10:29:33 AM
Well, what do you guys think about my suggestion to simply change the names of the seasons? Instead of archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm, we'll have A, B, and C.
A tag is archery, B tag is archery or muzzleloader, C tag is anything.
I think they need to change it to primitive weapon season and allow flintlocks and longbows only. Just one season at the same time for blackpowder and longbows. :twocents:
That will never happen. How many people do you know who want to hunt with a flintlock or a non-compound bow?
I know it won't happen. I bet some would if they had seasons during the rut. :twocents:
Maybe but would it be fair that the muzzleloaders and bows that people have invested money into would becomce worthless?
No, but not much that our gov dictates is fair. Besides they could still use their more modern "primitive" weapons during the modern season.
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 10:31:47 AM
In Idaho, do hunters have to pick their weapon. OR do they get to hunt every season and use the appropriate weapon for the season like we used to be able to do in this state 30 years ago?
They have an "A" tag and a "B" tag. The A tag has more archery seasons but still some rifle and muzzleloader. The B tag is mostly the rifle seasons but also some muzzleloader (I think). Maybe someone more familiar with it can explain. (since I've never hunted in Idaho). I love some of Idaho's rules and seasons. Like the one where you can use your deer tag on a bear or cougar if you choose to do so.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 11:01:07 AM
Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
You wrote this. Some other comments in previous posts have tried to make modern compounds equal to muzzleloaders as well. My point is that the ethical killing distance for the average hunter is much greater with a muzzleloader than a bow.
I will give you that you can make a second shot faster with a bow than a muzzleloader if the animal is still around.
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2012, 11:12:01 AM
Also bows are more reliable in the rain/wet conditions. Although I still think bows are a slightly lesser weapon, I feel that isn't really even the issue. It's an issue of opportunity, hunting pressure, and competition for special permits (Which hasn't really been brought up. But if a bow hunter buys a muzzy tag those muzzy permits are all he can put in for. Therefore worsens the draw odds for true muzzleloader hunters and improves the odds for people that buy bow tags.).Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
You wrote this. Some other comments in previous posts have tried to make modern compounds equal to muzzleloaders as well. My point is that the ethical killing distance for the average hunter is much greater with a muzzleloader than a bow.
I will give you that you can make a second shot faster with a bow than a muzzleloader if the animal is still around.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2012, 11:15:25 AM
Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.
You wrote this. Some other comments in previous posts have tried to make modern compounds equal to muzzleloaders as well. My point is that the ethical killing distance for the average hunter is much greater with a muzzleloader than a bow.
I will give you that you can make a second shot faster with a bow than a muzzleloader if the animal is still around.
Like I've said twice since posting that, that's the reasoning that DFW used to prohibit the use of archery equipment during ML season. I didn't push for it. Apparently, they've since changed their minds.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 11:15:46 AM
I brought up the competition for special permits and hunting pressure but it has been buried. Most bowhunters aren't going to switch and buy a muzzy tag but they will be more likely to put in for a special permit in muzzleloader season if they draw a multiseason tag and can now use their bow. I think some of my second cow tags would be in muzzleloader season as an example if I had the multiseason permit.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2012, 11:18:25 AM
Grundy,:yeah:
I brought up the competition for special permits and hunting pressure but it has been buried. Most bowhunters aren't going to switch and buy a muzzy tag but they will be more likely to put in for a special permit in muzzleloader season if they draw a multiseason tag and can now use their bow. I think some of my second cow tags would be in muzzleloader season as an example if I had the multiseason permit.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 04, 2012, 11:22:40 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 11:28:24 AM
Quote
I would say that there shouldn't be an issue to allow at least the traditional muzzys in archery season if it is all about equal/lesser weapons.
I could go along with flintlocks being allowed during archery season. :tup:
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2012, 11:44:14 AM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 04, 2012, 06:45:53 PM
I could go along with flintlocks being allowed during archery season. :tup:
[/quote]
uhuh: You have to include No: 11 caps as well; but im cool with the sidelock. But if you want to hunt with a bow, then during ML you have to use wood bows and wood arrows and feather fletching ONLY.
Post by: huntnnw on April 04, 2012, 06:50:05 PM
99% of the people will not have a problem with this change. Originally I was against the idea of archery equipment during muzzleloader season but I changed my mind.
This is not going to affect the muzzleloader season in any big way. All it will do is allow hunters a little more flexibility. Really, why would you care if someone with a ML tag chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader?
exactly..i hunt both seasons varying from year to year and what my plans are...I dont see how it would change or add anyone..I would still be a hunter in the woods no matter how u cut it if i were carrying a bow or a muzzy
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2012, 06:52:31 PM
uhuh: You have to include No: 11 caps as well; but im cool with the sidelock.
I hunt with a sidelock muzzleloader and no.11 caps. Inlines don't have any advantage over sidelocks. A sidelock can shoot just as far.
Post by: washelkhunter on April 04, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
uhuh: You have to include No: 11 caps as well; but im cool with the sidelock.
I hunt with a sidelock muzzleloader and no.11 caps. Inlines don't have any advantage over sidelocks. A sidelock can shoot just as far.
I agree; inlines do not have an advantage over sidelocks.
Post by: Sabotloader on April 04, 2012, 07:39:46 PM
uhuh: You have to include No: 11 caps as well; but im cool with the sidelock.
I hunt with a sidelock muzzleloader and no.11 caps. Inlines don't have any advantage over sidelocks. A sidelock can shoot just as far.
I agree; inlines do not have an advantage over sidelocks.
See, I agree with Bobcat's highlited statement, modern sidelocks have come a long ways from what they were.
Case in point, I have a couple Green Mountain 50 cal LRH fast twist barrel mounted in a Renegade stocks - They will shoot right along with any of the inlines that I own, basically it is the same thing as my Knight DISC Extreme equipped to hunt in the Pacific Northwest. For long distance shooting it might be a tad better because of the set trigger function.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010005.jpg&hash=0c6628945dea7704de9f9444fa02c693db52c5cb)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F07Doe.jpg&hash=dd57d6204c2bc901770eae37c5071a5f4a467352)
Post by: Hindtit on April 04, 2012, 09:30:29 PM
Post by: huntnnw on April 04, 2012, 10:16:08 PM
Post by: buglebuster on April 05, 2012, 01:29:04 AM
Post by: TommyH on April 05, 2012, 08:48:09 AM
no kidding.. I killed my muzzy bull last year with not a chance in hell of taking a shot at with a bow.. I have countless encounters during archery elk where a bull is dead with a smoke pull.
:yeah: A muzzy hunt ends where a archery hunt begins!
Post by: Hindtit on April 05, 2012, 11:59:59 AM
Post by: huntnnw on April 07, 2012, 02:09:43 PM
Post by: bucklucky on April 07, 2012, 04:53:34 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 07, 2012, 05:35:23 PM
I plan on building a flint lock just for elk hunting. Always thougth it would be cool to kill a bull like the ol timers.
Right on! :yeah:
Post by: washelkhunter on April 08, 2012, 06:09:10 PM
Dear
I e-mailed you some time ago about my concerns that the WDFW will approve a rule change to the 2012-2014 hunting regulations to allow the use of archery gear during the historically and traditionally muzzleloader ONLY deer and elk seasons. Time is running out to stop this rule change. The 12-14 regs are scheduled for formal approval on 4-13/14. I need you to put pressure on the Director and the Commission to strike this rule from both the deer and elk ML seasons. Please help me and the thousands of other muzzleloader hunters of Washington. Thank You.
Sincerely:
Post by: Holg3107 on April 17, 2012, 03:55:03 PM
Quote
Hunting Method:
Muzzleloader tag holders can only
hunt during muzzleloader seasons
and must hunt with muzzleloader
or archery equipment. Hunting
equipment must meet regulations on
page 72-74.
Post by: buglebuster on April 17, 2012, 04:21:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 17, 2012, 05:08:23 PM
Good luck to all of those who purchased Multi-Season permits. :tup:
:yeah:
AND, to all those with muzzleloader elk tags, who can now hunt with a bow. :IBCOOL:
(like me)
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 17, 2012, 05:21:37 PM
With deer I can hunt with my bow now in the early archery season/early muzzle season and late muzzle season :IBCOOL:
HELL YEAH!!!
Post by: quadrafire on April 17, 2012, 06:00:39 PM
It says in the 4th paragraph. "you must use legal archer equipment during the archery general seasons, legal muzzleloader equipment during the muzzleloader general seasons, and any legal weapon during the modern firearms general seasons"
You think this is gonna be like the lighted nock controversy??
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2012, 06:04:13 PM
That is interesting. In my mail today is my Multi Deer Congratulations. One of 8500 selected :chuckle: Kinda like all the kids in the race getting blue ribbons. LOL
It says in the 4th paragraph. "you must use legal archer equipment during the archery general seasons, legal muzzleloader equipment during the muzzleloader general seasons, and any legal weapon during the modern firearms general seasons"
You think this is gonna be like the lighted nock controversy??
You mean in the way that it keeps all the hunter groups separated and arguing with each other? You bet it will.
Post by: quadrafire on April 17, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
That is interesting. In my mail today is my Multi Deer Congratulations. One of 8500 selected :chuckle: Kinda like all the kids in the race getting blue ribbons. LOL
It says in the 4th paragraph. "you must use legal archer equipment during the archery general seasons, legal muzzleloader equipment during the muzzleloader general seasons, and any legal weapon during the modern firearms general seasons"
You think this is gonna be like the lighted nock controversy??
You mean in the way that it keeps all the hunter groups separated and arguing with each other? You bet it will.
Lets just say. I'm not gonna pay my $183.50 until the last minute ;) (in case things change)
Post by: dreamingbig on April 18, 2012, 10:54:03 AM
Post by: et1702 on April 18, 2012, 11:20:02 AM
I am loving it! I can't wait! I did not get a multi season elk tag so I will be just playing during archery elk season.
With deer I can hunt with my bow now in the early archery season/early muzzle season and late muzzle season :IBCOOL:
HELL YEAH!!!
Regarding Deer hunting, how do you figure you can hunt archery & ML seasons??? You still have to pick the appropriate transport tag (i.e., archery or ML). So, you can't use your archery deer tag during ML season??? maybe I'm missing something and you are hunting an area that is open to both Archery & ML hunters at the same time.
ET
Post by: bobcat on April 18, 2012, 11:22:42 AM
I am loving it! I can't wait! I did not get a multi season elk tag so I will be just playing during archery elk season.
With deer I can hunt with my bow now in the early archery season/early muzzle season and late muzzle season :IBCOOL:
HELL YEAH!!!
Regarding Deer hunting, how do you figure you can hunt archery & ML seasons??? You still have to pick the appropriate transport tag (i.e., archery or ML). So, you can't use your archery deer tag during ML season??? maybe I'm missing something and you are hunting an area that is open to both Archery & ML hunters at the same time.
ET
He wasn't real clear about it, but what he's saying is that he has the multi-season deer tag, that's why he will be using his bow during both archery and muzzleloader seasons.
Post by: Curly on April 19, 2012, 12:29:18 PM
Post by: buglebuster on April 19, 2012, 12:34:22 PM
Almost like he disapeared :chuckle: probably out looking at new bows.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 19, 2012, 12:38:46 PM
I am loving it! I can't wait! I did not get a multi season elk tag so I will be just playing during archery elk season.
With deer I can hunt with my bow now in the early archery season/early muzzle season and late muzzle season :IBCOOL:
HELL YEAH!!!
Regarding Deer hunting, how do you figure you can hunt archery & ML seasons??? You still have to pick the appropriate transport tag (i.e., archery or ML). So, you can't use your archery deer tag during ML season??? maybe I'm missing something and you are hunting an area that is open to both Archery & ML hunters at the same time.
ET
He wasn't real clear about it, but what he's saying is that he has the multi-season deer tag, that's why he will be using his bow during both archery and muzzleloader seasons.
Everyone who put in for the deer got drawn so I figured everyone would know that I had one. With me saying that I could hunt both seasons. Not like anyone who applied did not get drawn :chuckle:
Post by: washelkhunter on April 21, 2012, 01:31:59 AM
Where's Washelk? I figured he'd be on here complaining about the new rules. :dunno:
Man im in kuaui livin the dream ;) :IBCOOL:
Post by: Curly on April 21, 2012, 11:57:32 AM
Where's Washelk? I figured he'd be on here complaining about the new rules. :dunno:
Man im in kuaui livin the dream ;) :IBCOOL:
8) Right on! :tup: