Post by: Fireant11 on May 07, 2012, 08:37:43 AM
I'm looking at the special permits and I'm scratching my head. As an example, I archery hunt in the Rimrock GMU. The archery and muzzle loader bull tags for Rimrock are considered "Quality Elk Hunts", yet the the modern firearm tag is considered a "Bull Elk Hunt" (yes, there is 1 tag for modern firearm that is in the "Quality Elk Hunt" section and it should be; it's a rut hunt with its own season, where no one else is hunting).
The archery, muzzle loader and modern firearm special permits are all during the general season for those weapons. You don't have any advantage because you're not out with special permit holders only. What makes the archery and muzzle loader "Quality Elk Hunts"?
Since they tie the archery season to Labor Day, it pushes this season outside (before) the rut, so there's nothing more "Quality" about this hunt than modern firearm "Bull Elk" hunt!
This comparison isn't unique to the Rimrock GMU.
The only difference I see in these three hunts is the money the state gets! The state charges more for a "Quality Elk Hunt" special permit than the "Bull Elk Hunt" special permit.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Post by: kirkl on May 07, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
Post by: CP on May 07, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 07, 2012, 09:10:12 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on May 07, 2012, 09:22:12 AM
If your WA or WM you dont hardly have to choose what to put in for. They dont offer up any choices.
Post by: Fireant11 on May 07, 2012, 09:31:16 AM
Again, what makes the "Quality Hunt" permit better than the "Bull Elk Hunt" permits?
Is it really just about money? "$6.60 vs $13.20". Another category of special permits to get people to apply for (which again is more revenue for the state)?
Post by: Curly on May 07, 2012, 09:36:22 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 07, 2012, 09:51:13 AM
The category thing is simply a money grab and WDFW had to come up with some hunts to place in the "Bull" category so that they could sell those permit apps. Once you realize that, it will make more sense. :twocents:
Yep, it has been a progressive thing whereas in 2008 or 9 they would have got about $6 for all elk draws (with 4 choices) but now they can bilk you out of $27.90 0r if over 65/youth/disabled.........$35.00. Then you have Deer, then the OIL's, and let's not forget your discover pass......
Post by: kirkl on May 07, 2012, 09:59:49 AM
Yeah, rifle gets the rut for quality and archery gets shafted.
If your WA or WM you dont hardly have to choose what to put in for. They dont offer up any choices.
The rifle hunts have about 1 tag in each gmu for quality. boy there really throwing the tags at the rifle guys during the rut.
Post by: Chesapeake on May 07, 2012, 10:32:36 AM
Yeah, rifle gets the rut for quality and archery gets shafted.
If your WA or WM you dont hardly have to choose what to put in for. They dont offer up any choices.
The rifle hunts have about 1 tag in each gmu for quality. boy there really throwing the tags at the rifle guys during the rut.
Its not about tag numbers per unit. Some would argue that 1 tag per unit makes for better quality. Its about a quality hunt. The rifle guys get twice the units, and 1 hunter in the unit at the peak of rut. Archery gets less than half the units with about a dozen hunters in the unit before the rut.
Just seems odd to me to give the peak of the rut to Rifle and not Archery. But they pose to get more money from rifle apps than from archery apps, so in that aspect it makes perfect sense.
Post by: NWBREW on May 07, 2012, 10:39:48 AM
Yeah, rifle gets the rut for quality and archery gets shafted.
If your WA or WM you dont hardly have to choose what to put in for. They dont offer up any choices.
The rifle hunts have about 1 tag in each gmu for quality. boy there really throwing the tags at the rifle guys during the rut.
I'm not sure but I believe you can hunt with your bow during rifle season if you have a MF tag. :dunno: Always an option.
Post by: dreamingbig on May 07, 2012, 11:22:09 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 07, 2012, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 07, 2012, 12:02:23 PM
Post by: Fireant11 on May 07, 2012, 12:49:37 PM
The reason: It allows the modern firearm hunters to apply for both the rut hunt and the regular season bull hunt. If it was all in quality they would have to choose thus they made a separate bull category. It also allows the game department to make more money.
I agree with you on the modern firearm; to allow the opportunity (however slight) to hunt for a bull elk in the rut. I can see possibly for muzzle loader, to give them an opportunity for a bull during their season (which is more in the rut than archery). But outside of greed (i.e. increased price for the special permit catagory), why aren't the archery bull hunts listed as "Bull Elk Hunts"?
As it stands, these aren't "Quality" hunts! They are the opportunity to harvest a bull elk during your normal archery season.
Post by: dreamingbig on May 07, 2012, 01:36:02 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 07, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 07, 2012, 02:04:11 PM
There are quite a few hunts that probably should be in a different category. We've already discussed the Margaret bull elk permits that got switched from "bull" to "quality" this year. That isn't right in my opinion; at the very least the September Margaret rifle hunt should be in the quality category. But, I'm pretty sure they made the change so that a lot more people would buy applications in the bull category. If it wasn't for Margaret, there wouldn't be anything worth applying for, for those with a westside elk tag.
The main issue here, IMO, is that there are two categories where only one is needed. Put all bull elk permits in the same category. Let the hunters decide if it's a hunt they want to apply for. The best hunts will have more people applying for them, and will take more points to draw, on average.
As for the September rifle elk permits on the eastside, for which there is only 1 permit per unit, if you think that's unfair because the same type of hunt isn't offered for archery hunters, like someone else said, you are free to buy a rifle tag and apply for those hunts, and if drawn, hunt it with a bow.
Post by: Fireant11 on May 07, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
I too feel there should only be a single bull special permit. I know the state doesn't because it doesn't bring in the revenue. (Yep, it's all about the Benjamins!).
I don't think the modern rifle hunt during the rut, with only 1 tag is unfair. This, IMHO, DOES qualify as a "Quality Hunt". My point is either move the archer bull tags into the standard "Bull Elk" special permit category, or change the date to where it would qualify as a "Quality Hunt".
Post by: adamR on May 07, 2012, 05:20:32 PM
I think what they should do is add 1 or two more modern hunters during the september qualtity hunt and then add a late season "bull permit" for archery and muzzleloaders.
You could keep all the same amount of permits just switch some numbers around a little.
Post by: billdo5 on May 07, 2012, 09:51:44 PM
one is a rut hunt (quality) and one isnt (bull elk)
Not true at all...
Post by: MLBowhunting on May 08, 2012, 07:52:48 AM
Post by: billdo5 on May 08, 2012, 08:49:44 AM
For archery alot of the time the woods are shut down during the hunt. Also the toutle and mudflow are quality but they are the same elk that are in the margraetwhat do u mean by the wood are shut down?
Post by: kirkl on May 08, 2012, 09:11:14 AM
one is a rut hunt (quality) and one isnt (bull elk)
Not true at all...
Well what is your reasoning?
For archery alot of the time the woods are shut down during the hunt. Also the toutle and mudflow are quality but they are the same elk that are in the margraetwhat do u mean by the wood are shut down?
As in its fire season?
Post by: Fullabull on May 08, 2012, 09:12:09 AM
And just telling folks that if they don't like it, hunt with the other group sounds like my teenager. There is actually no reason for them not to allow all three user groups to hunt at the same time during many of these prime rut hunts the MF's and ML get!
Here is what I see for prime rut permits issued per group:
AR Prime rut permits: 0
MF Prime rut permits: 68
ML Prime rut permits: 180
There is definitely something wrong with that...
Post by: billdo5 on May 08, 2012, 09:18:47 AM
The bull elk hunt are still rut hunts its just a way for the state to make more money.. if u look at the regs the dates are during the rut for archery elk in both categories.one is a rut hunt (quality) and one isnt (bull elk)
Not true at all...
Well what is your reasoning?For archery alot of the time the woods are shut down during the hunt. Also the toutle and mudflow are quality but they are the same elk that are in the margraetwhat do u mean by the wood are shut down?
As in its fire season?
Post by: Fullabull on May 08, 2012, 09:20:06 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 08, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
That's because the GENERAL archery season is during the rut, or just before the rut. The archery season is the best and easiest time of the year to hunt elk, especially bull elk. If you have an archery tag, there is no need to draw a special permit. You already get to hunt the prime time.
I wouldn't say the muzzleloader permits are "prime rut." They are after the rut.
Not to mention, there is a definite advantage for the archery season just in the fact that you are the first hunters in the woods.
Also, you are free to hunt whichever season you want with your bow. It's up to you when you want to hunt. If you don't like the September archery season, then buy a muzzleloader or modern firearm tag.
Post by: Fullabull on May 08, 2012, 09:42:52 AM
You are mistaken on when prime rut is for elk. There has been enough postings on this forum from folks who know when the prime rutting starts for the elk and when it ends. Just follow the MF and ML permit hunts to know when those times are. The board knows, that is why the MF and ML permit hunts are set that way.
I believe you know this to be true also. Archery gets to hunt during the pre-rutting period which is better then hunting November with archery equipment for sure. But to not allow some archery hunters the same opportunity as MF and ML hunters is just plain wrong.
Post by: bobcat on May 08, 2012, 09:47:54 AM
Muzzleloader season is definitely after the peak of the rut. (Oct 6-12)
But yes you are right, there are a few (very few) permits for modern firearm tags that are during the peak of the rut (looks like this year they are either Sept 24-28 or Sept 17-30 depending on which side of the mountains.)
And again, as a bow hunter, you are free to apply for those hunts the same as anybody else. You just need a modern firearm tag to do so.
Post by: kirkl on May 08, 2012, 10:05:46 AM
The bull elk hunt are still rut hunts its just a way for the state to make more money.. if u look at the regs the dates are during the rut for archery elk in both categories.one is a rut hunt (quality) and one isnt (bull elk)
Not true at all...
Well what is your reasoning?For archery alot of the time the woods are shut down during the hunt. Also the toutle and mudflow are quality but they are the same elk that are in the margraetwhat do u mean by the wood are shut down?
As in its fire season?
Bull elk hunts starting Oct 22nd for MF are not a rut hunt. Yes, you may have a few still wanting to rut and bugle but it is not considered a rut hunt like you are stating.
Post by: Fullabull on May 08, 2012, 10:21:37 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on May 08, 2012, 10:25:01 AM
The issue is that Archery doesnt get any prime rut tags to try for. And WM hardly has enough to pic from to fill out your 2 or 4 choices on a permit.
And the "you could get a rifle tag and use your bow" is another line of BS. To expect a guy to give up regular season archery and be relegated to modern rifle season just for a slight chance at a prime rut tag is nothing but a bad joke.
In my opinion this all started to go down hill when they started the "equalization between user groups" stuff several years back. Ever since that started they have continued to shorten and shift muzzy and archery seasons, lengthen rifle season, and migrate all the best draws over to rifle. All in an effort to equalize harvest between user groups.
And maybe thats the way it should be. I couldnt say. But I can say archery and muzzy have spiraled downhill from what they were 5 or 6 years back. Rifle has seemed to remain stable or slightly improve. But again, maybe thats what needed to happen to bring rifle on par with muzzy and archery. Again, I couldnt say.
Post by: Fireant11 on May 09, 2012, 07:36:40 AM
why do you say very few...when archery get ZERO! Archery hunters would love to get as many as either of the other two groups and there is not reason for them not to.....Do you not agree?
I still don't get what you're saying. Archery hunters already get to hunt bulls during the rut (or pre-rut, whatever you want to call it) during the general archery season, so there's no need for a special permit. If you're on the eastside you do need a special permit to take a bull bigger than a spike, but in that case there are hundred of special permits offered to archery hunters. So I'm not sure where you get that there are "ZERO."
Typically, the rut doesn't get started until the final week of September. Sometimes it heats up around the 20th of Sept. Either way, it's outside the window of the general archery season. So general archery hunters are not hunting the rut. Eastside general archery is spike only or spike & anterless. To harvest a bull, you need to draw a special permit.
The general modern firearm season typically runs the last weekend in October through the first weekend in November. This season is also outside of the rut. Eastside general modern firearm is spike only. To harvest a bull, you need to draw a special permit.
When you compare these facts, and compare the special permits, the question I was asking is why is the modern firearm special permit a "Bull Elk" permit ($7.10) yet the archery special permit is a "Quality Elk" permit ($13.70)? What is the difference in opportunities that drives the archery to "Quality" status ... whatever "Quality" hunt means?
Bobcat - you appear to be using the terms "rut" and "pre-rut" interchangeably when you say, "Archery hunters already get to hunt bulls during the rut (or pre-rut, whatever you want to call it)...". Rut and pre-rut are really different activities for elk. During the pre-rut, the bulls are starting to assemble their ladies. They are sometimes more responsive to cow calls in this phase than they would be after the rut. During the rut is when they are trying to keep their ladies to themselves and are more responsive to bugle calls, as they want to fend off or deter any other bulls who would want to steal their women. Since they are somewhat more responsive to cow calls during the pre-rut, it might make them easier to call in and harvest, but not to the point where it's a slam dunk and thus a "Quality Bull" hunt. Some bulls will respond to cow calls during the modern rifle season too but again, not to the point of this tag being a "Quality Bull" hunt (which the WDFW has correctly categorized it). The rut is when they are easier to call in, but the archery season is over by then. An archery bull tag (or an weapon bull tag) during this phase would be a "Quality Bull" hunt; just like the single MF tag permit.
I'm not questioning, or griping about the modern firearm permit that runs Sept 24-28, nor am I questioning the number of permits (1). All I'm trying to figure out is why are two special permits that have the same opportunity are considered different.
IMO, the distinction between a "Quality" vs a "Bull" special hunt should be the level of opportunity of one over the other to harvest something other than what is available via an over the counter tag. This opportunity would be either a bull hunt during the rut, or a bull hunt when the general public (i.e. OTC general season) is not also stomping around the woods. This later situation is what the Peaches Ridge or Observatory archery permit was a couple of years ago (I forget which permit it was). If you drew this tag, you were hunting during a time when ONLY other tag holders were hunting. They have since moved these tags to coincide with the general hunting season .... yet kept them as "Quality Bull" hunts! :bash:
Post by: Fullabull on May 09, 2012, 09:00:06 AM
The "Quality" tags either fall during prime rutting time (MF and ML hunts) or are in areas that have larger numbers of Quality animals due to spike only during general season (these are the archery Quality tags).
Post by: billdo5 on May 09, 2012, 09:06:53 AM
Post by: iRem on May 09, 2012, 01:48:54 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on May 09, 2012, 03:59:41 PM
I wouldn't call many off the archery ones quality but its really the only options we get.
How wouldn't they be quality? Where else would you want them date wise? 19 days is longer than any other weapon gets. Archers get first crack at the bulls during the rut. I know of far more quality bulls killed during these seasons than the rest.
Post by: billdo5 on May 09, 2012, 08:01:05 PM
Post by: billdo5 on May 09, 2012, 08:03:09 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 09, 2012, 08:06:25 PM
And now I know u have no idea what u are talking about since elk is September 4-16 which is not 19 days :)
He must be referring to the archery permits for units 149 through 181. The season is September 1-19.
Post by: steen on May 09, 2012, 09:13:08 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on May 09, 2012, 09:40:32 PM
Post by: billdo5 on May 10, 2012, 11:04:44 AM
Post by: Fullabull on May 10, 2012, 11:29:47 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on May 10, 2012, 12:17:22 PM
So, when I see bulls physically mounting cows during early archery, that's what- practice for when the real rut starts which is appearently the day after archery closes? :dunno:
Ya, and all the bulls I've killed during the second week of september that I called away from their cows were pre-rutting. :mor:
Post by: JLS on May 10, 2012, 12:31:02 PM
Typically, the rut doesn't get started until the final week of September. Sometimes it heats up around the 20th of Sept.
Absolutely not true. Here is a link to help you out. Rut activity starts well before the equinox.
Our season in WA is mostly in the pre-rut phase, which is a very effective time to kill elk.
Post by: igotbigbulls on May 10, 2012, 02:49:46 PM
Post by: Snapshot on May 11, 2012, 07:57:30 AM
Post by: Fireant11 on May 11, 2012, 09:01:32 AM
"Hunters can expect lower than average hunter densities, greater potential for success, or good hunt timing during these hunts."
If this is the definition that the WDFW is using, how can they call a permit that is during the general hunting season a "Quality" hunt? You definitely don't have a "lower than average hunter density". You're competing with everyone who purchased a general season tag for that area. It also doesn't fit the "good hunt timing" criteria, since it's not a hunt during special dates. The dates are open to anyone who purchases that unit via an over the counter tag.
Post by: buckhorn2 on May 11, 2012, 09:05:45 AM