Post by: jetjockey on May 21, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
In the brittany world, since there is a lot of emphasis on dual dogs, many of the FC titles, and trials get watered down. Last year there was even a push to get rid of the requirement that a dog must have a 3 point major win to achieve a FC. Ive heard stories of trainers being told by some clubs that trials were full, just so they wouldn't enter their dogs and take most of the points. Because of that, a lot more credit is given to dogs who also have American Field Championships to their name. The problem is that not all of the 1 hour trials are dual sanctioned championships, so with the exception of points awarded for the dog of the year awards, there is no difference between a dog that wins a 1 hr trial or a dog who wins a 1/2 hr trial. Because the 1 hour trials have points awarded for dog of the year awards, there will basically be no way to water those down because the pro's won't skip those trials. Plus, it takes a LOT more dog to run all out for 1 hour then it does for 30 minutes.
I sure hope the AKC jumps on this. It will take some of the politics out of trialing and give a distinction to the truely great dogs.
For those who don't trial or don't understand the confusing points system, Ill try and help explain it a little. Just remember, all breeds are a little different. Brittanys aren't required to place or win in a retrieving trial like GSP's and some of the other breeds, but I think the point system for an AKC FC is basically the same among all breeds.
To obtain a FC title, a dog needs 10 points from either 1/2 hour or 1 hour trials, there is no difference between the two. A dog gets 5 points for winning a trial with 25 or more dogs, and can get 2 points for placing second with 25 or more dogs. A dog gets 4 points for a win with 20-24 dog, 3 points with 15-19 dogs, and 2 points with 10-14 dogs. A dog can bring two points forward from puppy and derby trials provided they win a trial with at least 10 dogs in it. So, a young dog who wins a puppy and derby trial that both had 10 or more dogs, could bring forward a total of 4 points towards the 10 total needed for an FC title. But, if a derby aged dog wins 5 trials all with more then 10 dogs, they can still only bring 2 derby points forward. That is the reason a lot of young dogs get pulled from puppy or derby once they achieve their points.
For the dog of the year award like the Purina All Age dog of the year and the Tri-Tronics Shooting dog award the points are calculated a little different. When you hear someone say they have the #1 All Age dog in the country, or say something like "my dog is in the top 15 in the country", they are usually refering to one of the awards from their breed.
Those points are calculated yearly and calculated only for 1 hour trials. Heres the breakdown for those points.
1st.. 8 X number of dogs started
2nd 6 X number of dogs started
3rd 4 X number of dogs started
4th 2 X number of dogs started
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 21, 2012, 09:00:23 AM
Most people chasing higher level titles have their dogs professionally trained and handled. Professional trainers and handlers typically have influential contacts and they definately want higher level titles which are difficult to achieve to protect their livelihoods.
Post by: jetjockey on May 21, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
BTW Happy. The winningest Brittany on the circuit right now who is the 3X back to back to back All Age dog of the year, National Champion, RU Amateur National Champion, FC and AFC has been 100% amateur trained and campaigned until this year when the owner injured himself and put the dog with a Pro for a few months......... I don't see any drawback to the AKC adding a Grand Field Champion title to the mix.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 21, 2012, 10:59:50 AM
Non-active owners means that "most" pro's bring little to the table and make a living off of volunteers running field trials and hunt tests on weekends. The higher level of titles pro's chase with their dogs means the more focused they become on winning/passing. With this focus means less and less owner involvment which leads to the bottom line of fewer and fewer people volunteering to put on field trials and hunt tests.
With fewer people involved, more volunteers getting burned out putting on events for a truck load of pro trained dogs, the sport dies.
Post by: jetjockey on May 21, 2012, 02:58:43 PM
I have always said that not all Field Champions are created equal. Adding another level will simply separate they good ones from the great ones. I don't see how that will lower entry's at trials in any way.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 22, 2012, 08:15:54 AM
Pro's think they bring all the money to the clubs but, with less dogs, there is a lot less cost and overhead. Profit doesn't need to be as high. My opinion is that pro's with more than a certain number of dogs should be required to bring a helper for the clubs.
Professionals making money off of non-profit organizations should be a little more gracious in many cases. Although, Pointer trials just don't have the worker/help requirements that it takes to put on a retriever HT/trial. Grounds, birds, coffee and a few judges....not too difficult.
Post by: jetjockey on May 22, 2012, 08:51:57 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 22, 2012, 10:17:39 AM
I know nothing about the rules of pointer trials american field or otherwise. I just showed up to work.
Still the same holds true. The fewer Am's running their own dogs means the sport is weakened by more pro's. Simply due to workers. If 20 Am's show up with a dog or two a piece they usually have a spouse etc that is probably almost 40 people at the trial. When a pro shows up with 20 dogs, their owners typically are there with their hands off the sport (in their pockets) to watch and don't provide the level of help(which reduces costs) versus a pro just rolling in and running dogs.
When you've run a club for a few years that puts on events with about 4X the entries a pointer field trial has, you might have a better understanding.
And, don't get me wrong, (edit here to clarify) LOTS of Pro's help out and volunteer a lot of their time. I'm complaining more about the offset of volunteers helping and people showing up to support the clubs where their dogs may be running. I train with Pro's, I'm friends with a lot of Pro's and many help out whenever I ask BUT, I try very hard NOT to ask them to help because I know they are busy. I just wish more PEOPLE(dog owners) would get involved. That is my main point. Not pro-bashing.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 22, 2012, 10:25:05 AM
How many trials did you attend and volunteer to work at where your dog was running?
Post by: jetjockey on May 22, 2012, 01:30:30 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 22, 2012, 02:07:10 PM
Maybe where you are they don't help, but believe me, Pros and amateurs help out here on the East coast and in the Midwest help out a lot whenever they can. Again, HB trials are much different the. What you are used to, especially when you throw in championships. Weekend trials don't exist out here with the exception of a few clubs with great membership. My dog ran in 6 hour trials and one weekend trial this spring. I attended the weekend trial and also ran my dog. I helped with the dog wagon for two of the trials, there were about 120 entry's and the trial LOST money! The thing you don't realize is that in the HB game, amateurs RARELY have one dog on a string. HB is in a whole different world when it comes to cost, especially at the top level. I would have loved to see my dog run a lot more, but since the circuit took her to GA, AL, TN, OH, IL, and NE, it's kinda hard to make every trial, especially when she only runs in 1hr trials that usually occur during the week. I did help out at every trial I could drive to however. Btw. I just looked at all the trials my dog ran in and they averaged about 130 total entry's per trial.
Example of a retriever hunt test..... Oregon Hunting Retriever Club had about 450 entries last Memorial Day Weekend.
Post by: jetjockey on May 22, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 22, 2012, 04:03:54 PM
What's your point, it's a hunt test, not a field trial. An AA championship can usually run 12 dogs a day. Its totally different. Hell, the AF Nationals run 4 dogs a day, 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. 90% of the MH in the pointing dog world can't hold a candle to a HB dog. I've seen it, a friend of mine has a nice little MH that couldn't cut it in the HB world, so he pinned a MH on it instead. Nice little dog, not much run.
My point is the need for help via the people who run in trials and ht. When 450 entries show up, logistically set up and tear down literally takes a small army of volunteers. Not sure how a big running dog has much to do with higher titles and participation in the sport which increases the potential for viability of the sport into the future.
If Pro's are all that is left running dogs in the future....the sport is done until they can find a way to support it financially by hiring all the help to put on a trial. That will further eliminate the ability for the average guy to be able to put a single title on a dog let alone a higher title.
Post by: jetjockey on May 22, 2012, 07:14:34 PM
Post by: wildweeds on May 23, 2012, 06:52:45 AM
Closed breed stakes can be to blame for less than stellar FC specimens also.
I've got the run em all no matter the breed and see what shakes out mindset.I remember a trial where Bluemoon handled a NAFC pointer braced with a 2X NFC.FC vizla and that was an exciting brace to watch,neither were slouches,fact is that stake was extremely talented,5 different nfc breed champions,and a slew of other fc's and dogs with placements .
Grand Champeen title is nothing more than a way for the AKC to make more money.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 23, 2012, 07:25:54 AM
Grand Champeen title is nothing more than a way for the AKC to make more money.
Exactly. Or, specifically, a way for people with more money to spend more money and convince people their dogs are worth more money. Don't the pointer FT have yearly high point dogs? Retriever FT's keep tally of points....huge bragging rights to have a high point FC. Often, the high point FC is worth well more than the NFC dog. Often, NFC dog just qualified and had a great run through the NFC while the high point dog, performed consistently all year long and showed it really has what you what in a breeding not just a once and a while weekend winner.
$50K is nothing in the retriever world. You'll have to dig a lot deeper in your pockets if you want to buy an NFC. A dog with AA points and no title sells for around $7-10K.
Post by: jetjockey on May 23, 2012, 10:20:50 AM
As a said before, yes there is points towards the dog of the year award, and in the Brittany world we even have AF championships so the top dogs are typically multiple time AF champions or RU champions. But those are AF distinctions, not AKC distinctions. For AKC distinction a dog is either an FC or they are not an FC. Why not make a distinction for the top dogs who run 1 hr trials so people who don't understand AF vs AKC (like yourself, remember you argued with me about that several months ago) so the every day person knows the difference. Right now, someone looking for a dog from a breeder who who advertises puppies from a FC doesn't know what they are getting unless they do a lot of research into what exactly constitutes a FC.
Wild, you wanna drop the puppy and derby points? Fine with me. Many trials are already open to all pointing breeds though. My Brit won her FC in an open breed Brittany trial. However, that won't do a thing IMO to get rid of the lesser quality FC's. Besides, per the AKC there is no difference between an AA FC and a GD FC. And believe me, there can be a huge difference between the dogs. Plus, the AKC doesn't charge for the FC certificate. It's free.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 23, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
If you think a Grand title will make a breeding better or strengthen the sport, I think you're crazy. Doesn't matter AF/AKC.... They are still just titles and it takes knowledgeable breeding to improve a breed.
I've seen plenty of dogs with titles that are impressive and I wouldn't pay a nickel for the dog. Some of the winningest dogs in any venue are looked upon by their own trainers as not the greatest and having such faults they wouldn't want to breed that said dog. Some of the winningest dogs in any venue are the poorest producers of winning offspring.
As Wildweeds mentioned, Labs are a great example due to shear numbers. People play the numbers game, breed to a winning stud because he's the rage and winning trials just to find that stud, doesn't throw good pups.
Post by: wildweeds on May 23, 2012, 12:06:38 PM
Happy, the thing you still don't realize is that if your a pointer or setter guy, you compete in AF. Wild even aludes to that when he says setter people only want to breed to AF dogs. An AKC NFC Pointer or setter doesn't say much about the dog. If you want a REAL NFC Pointer or Setter, you better win Ames. Im not bashing AKC Pointers and Setters, its just the way it is. The versatile breeds are a bit different since an AF judge wont look at a dog without a tail, even if it did go head to head with an AF Pointer or Setter and beat it. There is basically 2 National Championships. The AKC Gun Dog Nationls, and the breed specific Nationals. The best AKC versatile breeds typically compete in their breed specific trials, and the bigger breeds like Brits and GSPs have to qualify to run in either their GD or AA Nationals. However, the best often won't even compete in the AKC Nationals since its a GD National and trainers won't enter their AA dogs.
As a said before, yes there is points towards the dog of the year award, and in the Brittany world we even have AF championships so the top dogs are typically multiple time AF champions or RU champions. But those are AF distinctions, not AKC distinctions. For AKC distinction a dog is either an FC or they are not an FC. Why not make a distinction for the top dogs who run 1 hr trials so people who don't understand AF vs AKC (like yourself, remember you argued with me about that several months ago) so the every day person knows the difference. Right now, someone looking for a dog from a breeder who who advertises puppies from a FC doesn't know what they are getting unless they do a lot of research into what exactly constitutes a FC.
Wild, you wanna drop the puppy and derby points? Fine with me. Many trials are already open to all pointing breeds though. My Brit won her FC in an open breed Brittany trial. However, that won't do a thing IMO to get rid of the lesser quality FC's. Besides, per the AKC there is no difference between an AA FC and a GD FC. And believe me, there can be a huge difference between the dogs. Plus, the AKC doesn't charge for the FC certificate. It's free.
Post by: jetjockey on May 23, 2012, 01:29:18 PM
Wild. Most breeders are women? How many AF trials have you been too? I guarantee you most breeders down here are not women. And high points doesn't necessarily mean squat. AKC high points or AF High points? Gun Dog or shooting dog, or All Age? Do they count 1/2 trials or only 1 hr trials? The venue a dog runs in and the format makes a big difference makes a big difference. For pointers, the general opionion is that the AKC National Pointer champion may be a NFC , but it isn't the REAL pointer NC. The only REAL Pointer or Setter NC comes from Ames. It's no different in the Brittany world. Sure the high point Gun Dog is still the high point Gun Dog, but the real high point dog is the ALl Age dog of the year. There is a reason the AKC Nationals crowns a NGDC and not a NFC! Just like in the Brittany world. Hell, a GD hasn't even been nominated for the hall of fame in about 20 years I believe, and there has been some great GD's! Like it or not, unless the dog is competing at the highest level for that breed, high points and NC's are are just talking points. For Pointers and EP's the highest level is AF. For Brittany's and other short tailed breeds its the AKC All Age breed Nationals. That's one of the reasons their is a distinction with akc between a NFC and a NGDC. Since they distinguish between AA dogs and GD's, distinguishing between FC's is no different. More credit should be given to a dog who proves it can compete in 1 hr braces then a dog who just runs 30 minute braces. It takes a lot more dog to keep it together for an hour.
Post by: jetjockey on May 23, 2012, 05:19:43 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2012, 09:17:04 AM
What surprises me Happy is that you seem to have no issue with different levels of "hunters". But you have an issue with different levels of "champions".
Not sure how you make that statement? Field trials have levels too.. Derby, Gun Dog, AA, Open.... those are different levels for field trials just like HT with JH, SH, MH.
Do pointers not have high point dogs at the end of the year? Like you said, FT is about going against more dogs and only one wins. If you make a GCH title, all one has to do is, "Meet a Standard". It would make it just like a HT, everyone who gets the wins/points gets a ribbon and a title.
Why not be a true field trialer and go for the win and be the high point dog for the year instead of sharing some lesser HT type title that anyone can acheive?
Post by: jetjockey on May 24, 2012, 09:59:26 AM
You have no clue how "real" of a trialer I am. I don't need to brag about my dog either, I know exactly what I have. And there is a possibility she will never be the high points dog of the year, but I'm not going to explain why. But if it makes you feel any better, she beat the top high point GD last year 2 out of the three times they went head to head.... Only problem was we moved her to All Age because she ran too big for GD. So while the top Points dog had a lot more points, in head to head, it was a totally different story
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2012, 10:47:11 AM
Aren't most Brit trials closed to all the other breeds?
Post by: jetjockey on May 24, 2012, 12:51:36 PM
As far as Brit trials go, Wild is off base. It completely depends on the club putting on the trial. If they think they can fill the trial with Brits only, they won't open them. If they can't, they will open them. Championships are closed. Doesn't make a rats azz worth of difference though. Look at the AKC GD Nations results over the years and tell me how Brits stack up. Better yet, ask Wild. He was braced against a Brit several years ago. A Brit cant get points for running in a GSP or setter trial even if they win 100 of them.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2012, 01:19:21 PM
Post by: jetjockey on May 24, 2012, 01:38:36 PM
Until you've ridden an hour brace, you shouldnt even have an opinion. I road the last. Our days of the AKC GD Nationals this year. You should have seen the dogs dropping at 40-50. Hell, my dog dropped at 30 due to a big cut on her chest. If it had stopped at 30, I was in the money, and a GWP would have won the entire thing.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2012, 06:13:01 PM
It has all the relevance in the world. Why do you think all the Championships and Nationals are a 1 hour braces? Its not because people want to sit in the saddle for way more time. Its because 1 hr braces weed a lot of dogs out. That is EXACTLY the point of a GFC title. Because 1 hr trials are so much more dificult. Thats the reason this is even on the table. Opening all the AKC trials up to all the breeds the only thing it will do is allow more dogs to go to more trials and allow more Fc's. Are you trying to say Brits wouldn't have as many FC's if they were open to all AKC breeds? Bullchit! Look at the AKC national results! Brits and GSP's have DOMINATED all other breeds at Nationals! Like I said earlier, my Brit finished her FC in a trial open to ALL breeds. What do you think is tougher, an all breed dog with 20 dogs or a Brittany only trial with 40 of the best Brits in the country? I can answer that, because I've lived it and rode both types of trials. I'll take an open breed trial all day long if I'm looking for placements.
Until you've ridden an hour brace, you shouldnt even have an opinion. I road the last. Our days of the AKC GD Nationals this year. You should have seen the dogs dropping at 40-50. Hell, my dog dropped at 30 due to a big cut on her chest. If it had stopped at 30, I was in the money, and a GWP would have won the entire thing.
Well, if you don't want any opinions, keep your mouth shut and don't ask the question. You are soo hell bent on promoting a brittany you can't see through reality. I have never said anything about any venue being harder than another only the negatives that come along with higher titles. In the retriever world, we have some and they have not been positive in my opinion for the health of the sport. If you only want to wish and imagine what will happen instead of looking at facts then, promote your wishes and hope they come true.
You look at your own opinion as the only valid one so, I can't see why you'd even ask a question here....try a britt field trial forum so everyone will agree with you and make you happy. That is my last suggestion.
Until you've run a club for a few years successfully for a few years, you shouldn't have an opinion if you want to take that angle.
Post by: jetjockey on May 24, 2012, 08:51:54 PM
As far as all breed vs closed breed trials go. Im not the one who keeps talking about that. I know it doesn't make a dam bit of difference. Top dogs are top dogs no matter what the breed. And it's proven every single year at the AKC All Breed GDNC. There are a lot of all breed trials out there, and no single breed outshines the other in AKC. AF, not the case, but in AKC, it doesn't matter, especially when you talk about the big 4 breeds. There has been many Brits who have finished their FC at all breed trials. Mine included.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2012, 09:55:48 PM
Post by: jetjockey on May 25, 2012, 10:26:32 AM
Post by: RC3 on May 25, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
Post by: jetjockey on May 26, 2012, 09:20:04 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 26, 2012, 12:03:21 PM
Trained dogs on wild birds in South Dakota last fall. It sounds romantic and great but, really can cause more issues in my opinion. You don't have control over what happens and having control of a situation is "training". Losing control of a situation and being properly prepared for it on trial / test day is "Testing" the dog.
Post by: jetjockey on May 26, 2012, 01:09:23 PM
As far as the Dakotas go, at least in the pointing dog world, if too many wild birds is creating issues, it means the proper training wasn't done before hand. In the pointer world, you don't have to have everything controlled. Dogs learn a lot on there own just by being run on thousands of birds. You cant traina dog how to track and lin a running pheasant. Besides, the training is still done in the yard, and so is most of the breaking process. Thousands of birds just speeds everything up really fast. Getting the dog relaxed around tons of wild birds is priceless.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 26, 2012, 01:20:57 PM
Funny how this picture of SoDak has almost the exact same land terrain as Sunnyside, Wa where the Spring GSP trial was held at Sulphur Creek Ranches. Crud...there are about 3 Brittany's in this picture....an FC, 4 MH's and a bunch of JH's and three retrievers... two Chessies and a golden...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2FHunting%2520pictures%2FSoDakMonday002-1.jpg&hash=b7033315a71f3c2880e9b8c18d3bfec1d1660853)
Sulphur Creek Ranches: In this picture the dogs were on over the next hill. We caught up a few minutes later to find one on point and one backing about 200 yards away.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2FHT%2520Trials%2Ftwodogsinpictuersomewhere.jpg&hash=70debdf1002ab72854bb5cbf314267cdf409c1c3)
Post by: jetjockey on May 26, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
Just out of curiosity, who is the FC brittany?
Post by: jetjockey on May 28, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
Btw. Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp. Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea. You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere. Btw. The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke. This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds. I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 29, 2012, 08:28:28 AM
Happy. Who is the FC Brittany. A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions. When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat. I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.
Btw. Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp. Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea. You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere. Btw. The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke. This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds. I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU
The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.
Post by: wildweeds on May 29, 2012, 12:20:36 PM
Happy. Who is the FC Brittany. A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions. When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat. I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.
Btw. Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp. Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea. You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere. Btw. The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke. This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds. I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU
The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.
Post by: jetjockey on May 29, 2012, 01:40:35 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 29, 2012, 02:55:52 PM
Happy. 4 weeks on sharp tail and two weeks on pheasants isn't impressive. Almost every major pro I know spends at least two months in the Dakotas doing the same thing every summer. All the dogs get birds killed over them at some point. Some may need lots of birds, and some don't. I go out every summer for almost a week and do the same thing. The difference is we are doing it ALL on private land where you were in the grasslands. There is a hell of a lot more birds on the private land then there is the grasslands. Btw. I spend a week hunting wild birds in SD every year, so I know exactly what steady is. What your explaining is what every trainer who is worth their salt does. The video I showed wasn't to show steadiness, it was to show you what you can't reproduce outside areas with HUGE wild bird numbers.
This is your first experience with having a dog trained by a pro isn't it?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 29, 2012, 04:25:07 PM
R.J's method to a T....................................kill,kill,kill.............. it's why his dogs don't drop a bit of style,and stand totally still and wait for him to bring the grounded bird back to them.Happy. Who is the FC Brittany. A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions. When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat. I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.
Btw. Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp. Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea. You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere. Btw. The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke. This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds. I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU
The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.
That is why RJ's record(s) stand alone... Not to mention more years in the dog training business than any other living and active pro..
Post by: RC3 on May 29, 2012, 11:09:14 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 06, 2012, 04:10:58 AM
Post by: Cascade_fisher on December 06, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
Well it's official. There is now a GFC and GAFC title in the AKC trial world. Any dog wearing the GFC title had to achieve the title in 1 hour stakes...... I think it's a great idea since it will separate the Fc's who can run for an hour vs those FC's who can't.I think it's stupid AKC BS and by no means do FC dogs "hunt and find birds at the master hunter level" MOST of the time - there are some. :twocents:
Post by: jetjockey on December 06, 2012, 01:20:34 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 06, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 06, 2012, 08:13:07 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 08, 2012, 05:01:28 AM
Post by: Cascade_fisher on December 12, 2012, 09:44:50 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 13, 2012, 04:30:27 AM
Post by: Cascade_fisher on December 13, 2012, 07:35:58 AM
I agree with you that they are bred to hunt birds and most do it well. The yodeling is still BS. I carry a whistle, as everyone should, so the dogs can hear you in windy or distant situations (have to train them to this, of course) when required which, IMO, shouldn't be very often.
Post by: AspenBud on December 13, 2012, 03:58:07 PM
Plenty of dogs bred from lines used in that venue are full time foot hunting dogs including most of the dogs used in competition. AA blood runs thick in a lot of those dogs.
If retrieving is important, well, that's what the NSTRA is for.
"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.
In real world hunting the key variable in how many birds a dog finds comes down to the guy driving the truck. Which type of trial dog or hunt test dog makes a better hunter really doesn't matter if the person using the dog doesn't know how to hunt their quarry or bother to burn some gas and wear out some boot leather.
Post by: Stilly bay on December 13, 2012, 04:22:43 PM
"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.
it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.
Post by: Cascade_fisher on December 13, 2012, 04:25:11 PM
"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.
it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.
Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.
Post by: AspenBud on December 13, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.
Post by: Stilly bay on December 13, 2012, 04:51:52 PM
"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.
it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.
Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.
which is a shame. besides in the cover dog circuits there are a lot of MH and FC that will never hunt wild birds... I understand all the work that goes into the dog but if they don't have any wild bird skills or any way to judge how they handle wild birds what good are they? they might as well just point paper towels with bird scent on them in some of these trials. I don't care how stylish a dog is, if it bumps birds -or because pen raised birds are involved it gets way too close- then something isn't stirring the Kool aid.
I watched a couple MH's last summer and they were stylish and amazing to watch but they damn near stood on top of the training birds, and their owners were totally fine with it and quick to talk S about some really solid "meat" dogs that were working nearby. I don't get it.
Coverdog is run exclusively on ruffed grouse and all of those guys sing.
There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.
Im sure it also has a lot to do with the time of year these cover dog events take place. all I know is if you get a couple guys hollering away in the grouse woods in late winter when the leaves are down, the birds are going to clear out. of course im sure you can get away with a lot more noise if your dog is rolling 200 yards out, the grouse is going to be more worried about the dog that has just locked on to its position... but try that singing with late season pheasants out in the open and tell me how it works out.
sorry for the highjacking.... :rolleyes:
Post by: wildweeds on December 13, 2012, 06:18:04 PM
Post by: jetjockey on December 13, 2012, 06:32:51 PM
"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.
it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.
Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.
which is a shame. besides in the cover dog circuits there are a lot of MH and FC that will never hunt wild birds... I understand all the work that goes into the dog but if they don't have any wild bird skills or any way to judge how they handle wild birds what good are they? they might as well just point paper towels with bird scent on them in some of these trials. I don't care how stylish a dog is, if it bumps birds -or because pen raised birds are involved it gets way too close- then something isn't stirring the Kool aid.
I watched a couple MH's last summer and they were stylish and amazing to watch but they damn near stood on top of the training birds, and their owners were totally fine with it and quick to talk S about some really solid "meat" dogs that were working nearby. I don't get it.Coverdog is run exclusively on ruffed grouse and all of those guys sing.
There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.
Im sure it also has a lot to do with the time of year these cover dog events take place. all I know is if you get a couple guys hollering away in the grouse woods in late winter when the leaves are down, the birds are going to clear out. of course im sure you can get away with a lot more noise if your dog is rolling 200 yards out, the grouse is going to be more worried about the dog that has just locked on to its position... but try that singing with late season pheasants out in the open and tell me how it works out.
sorry for the highjacking.... :rolleyes:
Maybe in the Northwest, but out here on the East Coast and in the Midwest, if a dog doesn't have wild bird experience, it won't win. Nearly every Pro summers and trains in areas with tons of wild birds, like the Dakotas. And a few of the Championships like the Chicken and Sharptail are run on only wild birds. In the AF world, most of the Midwest trials are run on only wild birds. It is a myth that most trial dogs will never see we birds.. At least it's a myth out here in wild bird country.
I've also sung to my dog In SD in December while hunting wild pheasants. She had no problem pointing her fair share of pheasants. But then again, she better. She spends 3 months every summer training on wild pheasants, sharptail, and chickens getting ready for trial season.. She probably gets more wild bird experience in one summer than most dogs get in a lifetime.