Possible new AKC Grand Field Champion title.....

[jetjockey]

Happy, everyone knows dogs will run different on different grounds.  But it goes further then that.  It's specific grounds, not just east coast vs west coast.  There are tight grounds where a big running GD can compete with the AA dogs.  A litter mate to my dog qualified for both the Open and Amateur AA Nationals even though he is a tweener.  Get him out on the prairies, or grounds where a big running dog can open up, and he typically doesn't range far enough to compete with the AA dogs.  And AA can be very subjective.  In the NE most of the grounds are pretty tight, most dogs that win AA up there don't have he run to compete in the midwest.  Come down to the south and it's a toss up.  Some of the grounds a handler can really show an AA dog and some are too tight.  Ames is tight, most AKC AA dogs can easily compete with the AF AA dogs at Ames, at least as far as run goes.  There are few places where an AA can really let lose at Ames.  Put them in the Prairies and again, it can be a very different story.  If a handler lets a dog go at Ames, it's gonna be lost.  Handlers have to reign them in to make it around.  But everyone in the HB world knows that.  I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you would too if you had much HB experience.  Just for grins, google earth Rockingham motor speedway in NC.  Just above it you will notice a large junk of land with paths cut out that look like a big clover.  That is a trial ground.  Some of those open fields are LONG, and an AA dog can really show its stuff.  A GD just isn't going to be able to shoe at grounds like that.  But again, until you've ridden grounds like that, Ames, and the trial grounds in the Prairies, you simple can't have an opinion.  I've ridden trials in VA, NC, GA, TN, AL, IA, NE, OH, and I've walked Scatter creek.  It's no secret you have to run a dog different at different grounds.

[RC3]

 I know everyone is entitled to their own thing I just like reading all the posts about the run,the run,the run doesn't matter if the dog can hunt or find birds.

[jetjockey]

Except the fact that a dog does have to hunt and find birds at the master hunter level in order to place or win.  Heck, in bird specific championships, you have to find the specific bird to win.  A dog could have 20 perfect sharptail finds in the prairies and be the best dog out there, but if it's running in a chicken championship, all the sharptails in the world won't win without at least one chicken find.  There seems to be three myths about trial dogs.  1.  They aren't good wild bird dogs.  That "might" be true in some areas, but nearly every Pro I know summers in the Dakotas, Kansas, or Nebraska training on all wild birds.  #2.  You can't foot hunt over a HB dog, and especially an All Age dog.  Every HB dog on my Pros string gets trained off foot as well as off horse.  I foot hunt my AA HB dog every year, and she has no problem with late season wild SD roosters.  #3.  Somehow trial dogs aren't hunting dogs.  Well, I just know what to say about that one.  They all come from the same mold.

[Happy Gilmore]

Can a dog win a trial and not ever find a bird even if another dog found a bird but, didn't run "as big"?

Trained dogs on wild birds in South Dakota last fall. It sounds romantic and great but, really can cause more issues in my opinion. You don't have control over what happens and having control of a situation is "training". Losing control of a situation and being properly prepared for it on trial / test day is "Testing" the dog. 

[jetjockey]

Dogs have to have bird work in order to place, with the exception of puppy's.  Derbys have to have bird work but the don't have to be steady.  Gun dogs and All Age dogs have to have bird work, be completely steady, and they better look good doing it.  They also have to stop to flush if they accidentally bump a bird, they have to back, and depending on the breed, they have to win a retrieving stake (akc only, no retrieving in AF since AF more closely models the old a plantation style of hunting where pointing dogs pointed, and the flushing dogs flushed and retrieved.  Many of the big plantations down here still operate that way).  They also better run appropriately for the division they are running in.  In other words, if you think running an AA dog in a GD trial is gonna help you because the dog runs bigger, your wrong.  Judges will tell the handler to pick up.  Same goes for running a GD in an AA trial.  Even if the GD has the most finds and looks the best doing it, if it doesn't run an acceptable AA brace, they shouldn't be placed.  Running the biggest can help, but it can hurt as well if the dog is not handling.  No different with birds.  If your dog is laying it down and has plenty of great bird work, more birds can hurt you rather then help you.  If a dog is obviously wining, but takes steps on the last bird, it's done.  That's why you will sometimes here people say the dog had "too many birds".  It's not that the dog had too many birds, it's that the last bird took the dog out and the dog didn't need the bird anyways because they already had enough to win.  Too many finds can also not allow the dog to show its true range.  If your running AA and the dog is stopping every 100 yards and pointing birds, that's great.  But if too many birds means the dog can't show off it's run, range, and handling, it can hurt the dog. 

As far as the Dakotas go, at least in the pointing dog world, if too many wild birds is creating issues, it means the proper training wasn't done before hand.  In the pointer world, you don't have to have everything controlled.  Dogs learn a lot on there own just by being run on thousands of birds. You cant traina dog how to track and lin a running pheasant. Besides, the training is still done in the yard, and so is most of the breaking process.  Thousands of birds just speeds everything up really fast.  Getting the dog relaxed around tons of wild birds is priceless. 

[Happy Gilmore]

dogs need tons of live birds and I agree it is something you can't train but, "yard work" is just as important for foundation.

Funny how this picture of SoDak has almost the exact same land terrain as Sunnyside, Wa where the Spring GSP trial was held at Sulphur Creek Ranches. Crud...there are about 3 Brittany's in this picture....an FC, 4 MH's and a bunch of JH's and three retrievers... two Chessies and a golden...


Sulphur Creek Ranches: In this picture the dogs were on over the next hill. We caught up a few minutes later to find one on point and one backing about 200 yards away.

[jetjockey]

Well, I was trying to post a youtube video, but it wont' work.  There are lots of grounds that look just like those at Sulfur Creek all over the country.  Foundations are always set with yard work, but its the dog, and the field work that make the difference.  You simply cant simulate wild birds flushing and running all over the place to a dog.  They have to see it, and see it a lot to really understand wild birds, and what it really means to be steady.  You can only do that in places like the Dakotas.  I love my home state of WA, but there just isn't the wild bird numbers.

Just out of curiosity, who is the FC brittany?

[jetjockey]

Happy.  Who is the FC Brittany.   A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions.   When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat.  I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.

Btw.  Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp.  Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea.  You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere.  Btw.  The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke.  This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds.  I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy.  Who is the FC Brittany.   A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions.   When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat.  I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.

Btw.  Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp.  Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea.  You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere.  Btw.  The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke.  This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds.  I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU

The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.

[wildweeds]

R.J's method to a T....................................kill,kill,kill.............. it's why his dogs don't drop a bit of style,and stand totally still and wait for him to bring the grounded bird back to them.

Happy.  Who is the FC Brittany.   A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions.   When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat.  I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.

Btw.  Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp.  Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea.  You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere.  Btw.  The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke.  This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds.  I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU

The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.

[jetjockey]

Happy.  4 weeks on sharp tail and two weeks on pheasants isn't impressive.  Almost every major pro I know spends at least two months in the Dakotas doing the same thing every summer.  All the dogs get birds killed over them at some point.  Some may need lots of birds, and some don't.  I go out every summer for almost a week and do the same thing.  The difference is we are doing it ALL on private land where you were in the grasslands.  There is a hell of a lot more birds on the private land then there is the grasslands.  Btw.  I spend a week hunting wild birds in SD every year, so I know exactly what steady is.  What your explaining is what every trainer who is worth their salt does.  The video I showed wasn't to show steadiness, it was to show you what you can't reproduce outside areas with HUGE wild bird numbers.

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy.  4 weeks on sharp tail and two weeks on pheasants isn't impressive.  Almost every major pro I know spends at least two months in the Dakotas doing the same thing every summer.  All the dogs get birds killed over them at some point.  Some may need lots of birds, and some don't.  I go out every summer for almost a week and do the same thing.  The difference is we are doing it ALL on private land where you were in the grasslands.  There is a hell of a lot more birds on the private land then there is the grasslands.  Btw.  I spend a week hunting wild birds in SD every year, so I know exactly what steady is.  What your explaining is what every trainer who is worth their salt does.  The video I showed wasn't to show steadiness, it was to show you what you can't reproduce outside areas with HUGE wild bird numbers.

This is your first experience with having a dog trained by a pro isn't it?

[Happy Gilmore]

R.J's method to a T....................................kill,kill,kill.............. it's why his dogs don't drop a bit of style,and stand totally still and wait for him to bring the grounded bird back to them.

Happy.  Who is the FC Brittany.   A lot of us in the Brit world keep up with the top dogs and the dogs that compete well in different regions.   When my dog runs in trials, I usually know the dogs to beat.  I typically know the dogs that run in the east, and the ones who show up in the prairies and the championships.

Btw.  Here's a video of a dogs first summer in the Dakotas at camp.  Its a bad video, but it gives you an idea.  You simply can't reproduce the wild birds anywhere.  Btw.  The dog in the video is 15 months old and was already fully broke.  This kind of steadyness just can't be reproduced with farm raised birds.  I think about 50 birds flushed even though you can only see about 10-15 on the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU

The FC was a GSP. Spent a total of 4 weeks on Sharptail in Montana and 2 weeks on Pheasant in Fort Pierre. Start shooting the wild birds in the face of the dog and see what steady is. Throw birds at a dogs face all day long and pop a pistol and watch it fly away. Dogs learn really fast chase doesn't do them any good when they flush 1 or 1,000 they aren't going to get it. Start shooting a bird dead in the dogs face 5X a day and see how things change. flush and pop pistol doesn't prove steady to me.

That is why RJ's record(s) stand alone... Not to mention more years in the dog training business than any other living and active pro..

[RC3]

To each their own but I don't need a dog to hunt in an area with HUGE amounts of wild birds, shoot I can just walk around and bump into em on my own......I want a dog that will grind it out on them nasty chukar hills.

[jetjockey]

Well it's official.  There is now a GFC and GAFC title in the AKC trial world.  Any dog wearing the GFC title had to achieve the title in 1 hour stakes......   I think it's a great idea since it will separate the Fc's who can run for an hour vs those FC's who can't.