Possible new AKC Grand Field Champion title.....

[Happy Gilmore]

 Grand Champeen title is nothing more than a way for the AKC to make more money.
 

Exactly. Or, specifically, a way for people with more money to spend more money and convince people their dogs are worth more money. Don't the pointer FT have yearly high point dogs? Retriever FT's keep tally of points....huge bragging rights to have a high point FC. Often, the high point FC is worth well more than the NFC dog. Often, NFC dog just qualified and had a great run through the NFC while the high point dog, performed consistently all year long and showed it really has what you what in a breeding not just a once and a while weekend winner.

$50K is nothing in the retriever world. You'll have to dig a lot deeper in your pockets if you want to buy an NFC. A dog with AA points and no title sells for around $7-10K.

[jetjockey]

Happy, the thing you still don't realize is that if your a pointer or setter guy, you compete in AF.  Wild even aludes to that when he says setter people only want to breed to AF dogs.  An AKC NFC Pointer or setter doesn't say much about the dog.  If you want a REAL NFC Pointer or Setter, you better win Ames.  Im not bashing AKC Pointers and Setters, its just the way it is.  The  versatile breeds are a bit different since an AF judge wont look at a dog without a tail, even if it did go head to head with an AF Pointer or Setter and beat it.  There is basically 2 National Championships.  The AKC Gun Dog Nationls, and the breed specific Nationals.  The best AKC versatile breeds typically compete in their breed specific trials, and the bigger breeds like Brits and GSPs have to qualify to run in either their GD or AA Nationals.  However, the best often won't even compete in the AKC Nationals since its a GD National and trainers won't enter their AA dogs. 

As a said before, yes there is points towards the dog of the year award, and in the Brittany world we even have AF championships so the top dogs are typically multiple time AF champions or RU champions.  But those are AF distinctions, not AKC distinctions.  For AKC distinction a dog is either an FC or they are not an FC.   Why not make a distinction for the top dogs who run 1 hr trials so people who don't understand AF vs AKC (like yourself, remember you argued with me about that several months ago) so the every day person knows the difference.  Right now, someone looking for a dog from a breeder who who advertises puppies from a FC doesn't know what they are getting unless they do a lot of research into what exactly constitutes a FC.   

Wild, you wanna drop the puppy and derby points?  Fine with me.  Many trials are already open to all pointing breeds though.  My Brit won her FC in an open breed Brittany trial.  However, that won't do a thing IMO to get rid of the lesser quality FC's.  Besides, per the AKC there is no difference between an AA FC and a GD FC.  And believe me, there can be a huge difference between the dogs.    Plus, the AKC doesn't charge for the FC certificate.   It's free.

[Happy Gilmore]

No matter what the venue AF / AKC, it doesn't change the fact that additional titles don't mean anything to anyone except brining more money and sometimes, adding to the decline of the sport.

If you think a Grand title will make a breeding better or strengthen the sport, I think you're crazy. Doesn't matter AF/AKC.... They are still just titles and it takes knowledgeable breeding to improve a breed.

I've seen plenty of dogs with titles that are impressive and I wouldn't pay a nickel for the dog. Some of the winningest dogs in any venue are looked upon by their own trainers as not the greatest and having such faults they wouldn't want to breed that said dog. Some of the winningest dogs in any venue are the poorest producers of winning offspring.

As Wildweeds mentioned, Labs are a great example due to shear numbers. People play the numbers game, breed to a winning stud because he's the rage and winning trials just to find that stud, doesn't throw good pups.

[wildweeds]

You don't have to win ames to have a real setter or pointer, the biggest reason the setter/pointer people do not breed to what they compete against is a complex issue of well....................................90% of them are women, its a chip on the shoulder thing,every really good akc dog is begotten from FDSB breeding,most a AF CH sired.My beater dog was the exception to that rule.Backyard bred on performance standard....................... turned out to be 1 in points.Retired 3 different times and pulled out of retirement to run in nationals.

Happy, the thing you still don't realize is that if your a pointer or setter guy, you compete in AF.  Wild even aludes to that when he says setter people only want to breed to AF dogs.  An AKC NFC Pointer or setter doesn't say much about the dog.  If you want a REAL NFC Pointer or Setter, you better win Ames.  Im not bashing AKC Pointers and Setters, its just the way it is.  The  versatile breeds are a bit different since an AF judge wont look at a dog without a tail, even if it did go head to head with an AF Pointer or Setter and beat it.  There is basically 2 National Championships.  The AKC Gun Dog Nationls, and the breed specific Nationals.  The best AKC versatile breeds typically compete in their breed specific trials, and the bigger breeds like Brits and GSPs have to qualify to run in either their GD or AA Nationals.  However, the best often won't even compete in the AKC Nationals since its a GD National and trainers won't enter their AA dogs. 

As a said before, yes there is points towards the dog of the year award, and in the Brittany world we even have AF championships so the top dogs are typically multiple time AF champions or RU champions.  But those are AF distinctions, not AKC distinctions.  For AKC distinction a dog is either an FC or they are not an FC.   Why not make a distinction for the top dogs who run 1 hr trials so people who don't understand AF vs AKC (like yourself, remember you argued with me about that several months ago) so the every day person knows the difference.  Right now, someone looking for a dog from a breeder who who advertises puppies from a FC doesn't know what they are getting unless they do a lot of research into what exactly constitutes a FC.   

Wild, you wanna drop the puppy and derby points?  Fine with me.  Many trials are already open to all pointing breeds though.  My Brit won her FC in an open breed Brittany trial.  However, that won't do a thing IMO to get rid of the lesser quality FC's.  Besides, per the AKC there is no difference between an AA FC and a GD FC.  And believe me, there can be a huge difference between the dogs.    Plus, the AKC doesn't charge for the FC certificate.   It's free.

[jetjockey]

Happy..  Please explain to me how it's going to cost me more money to achieve a GFC title?

Wild.  Most breeders are women?  How many AF trials have you been too?   I guarantee you most breeders down here are not women.  And high points doesn't necessarily mean squat.  AKC  high points or AF High points?  Gun Dog or shooting dog, or All Age?   Do they count 1/2 trials or only 1 hr trials?  The venue a dog runs in and the format makes a big difference makes a big difference.  For pointers, the general opionion is that the AKC National Pointer champion may be a NFC , but it isn't the REAL pointer NC.  The only REAL Pointer or Setter NC comes from Ames.  It's no different in the Brittany world.  Sure the high point Gun Dog is still the high point Gun Dog, but the real high point dog is the ALl Age dog of the year.  There is a reason the AKC Nationals crowns a NGDC and not a NFC!  Just like in the Brittany world.  Hell, a GD hasn't even been nominated for the hall of fame in about 20 years I believe, and there has been some great GD's!  Like it or not, unless the dog is  competing  at the highest level for that breed, high points and NC's are are just talking points.  For Pointers and EP's the highest level is AF.  For Brittany's and other short tailed breeds its the AKC All Age breed Nationals.  That's one of the reasons their is a distinction with akc between a NFC and a NGDC.   Since they distinguish between AA dogs and GD's, distinguishing between FC's is no different.  More credit should be given to a dog who proves it can compete in 1 hr braces then a dog who just runs 30 minute braces.  It takes a lot more dog to keep it together for an hour.

[jetjockey]

What surprises me Happy is that you seem to have no issue with different levels of "hunters". But you have an issue with different levels of "champions".  It's really no different.  HT's are judged to a standard and trials are judged based off the competition.  Just like there is a big difference between a JH and a MH, there is a big difference between a dog who achieves it's FC running weekend 1/2 hr walking GUn Dog trials against 15-20 dogs and a dog who achieves it's FC running 1 hour championship All Age Horse back trials against 40+ of the best dogs in the country.  FC's should show the difference, just like they do in Hunt tests.

[Happy Gilmore]

What surprises me Happy is that you seem to have no issue with different levels of "hunters". But you have an issue with different levels of "champions". 

Not sure how you make that statement? Field trials have levels too.. Derby, Gun Dog, AA, Open.... those are different levels for field trials just like HT with JH, SH, MH.

Do pointers not have high point dogs at the end of the year? Like you said, FT is about going against more dogs and only one wins. If you make a GCH title, all one has to do is, "Meet a Standard". It would make it just like a HT, everyone who gets the wins/points gets a ribbon and a title.

Why not be a true field trialer and go for the win and be the high point dog for the year instead of sharing some lesser HT type title that anyone can acheive?

[jetjockey]

You obviously don't know how th GFC title is supposed to work.  But you said it yourself.  In tests, you have different levels and you get a title that represents passing that particular level.  In trials, you don't have that.  There is no diferenciation between a GD and an AA FC, even though there is often a big difference between the dogs.   If they want to make a GDFC and an AAFC then Im all for that as well.  What they are suggesting is a GFC for all hour dogs.  With the current proposal, GD's and AA dogs could still be GFC's.   As far as the GFC title, you still don't get it.  It's not about meeting a standard and not all dogs will get it.  A dog will still have to obtain 10 points in 1 hour trials.  A dog would still have to win a major trial, except it would be an hour trial vs the current 1/2 trial.  Everything would  e the same, but a dog would have to prove they could do it in hour trials......... 

You have no clue how "real" of a trialer I am.  I don't need to brag about my dog either, I know exactly what I have.  And there is a possibility she will never be the high points dog of the year,  but I'm not going to explain why.   But if it makes you feel any better, she beat the top high point GD last year 2 out of the three times they went head to head....  Only problem was we moved her to All Age because she ran too big for GD.  So while the top Points dog had a lot more points, in head to head, it was a totally different story

[Happy Gilmore]

Well, competition wise, top point dog of the year is top point dog of the year. No different than a Blue ribbon at the end of the day. GCH title is just some accumulated points that anyone can theoretically get if they have a decent dog and campaigns the dog at all the trials on the circuit. Like a HT, finish the 5 tests, get the ribbon. For what you propose, get the GCH points and get the title. I don't see a difference.

Aren't most Brit trials closed to all the other breeds?

[jetjockey]

You don't see a difference because you have limited to no HB trial experience.  First off, HT's are to a standard.  Trials are against the other competition. When it comes to trials with hour braces the competition is a hell of a lot tougher, and it's a he'll of a lot tougher for a dog to keep it together for an hour.  There might not be a single pro at a 1/2 hr trial, yet I can almost guarantee there will typically be multiple Pros at trials with hour braces.   It's easy to pin a FC on a dog in 1/2 hr trials.  It is totally different in trials with 1 hr braces when your running against the best dogs in the country.  Hell, my dog doesn't even run 30 minute trials unless it's an AAA.  There is absolutely no point.  She's already a FC and she doesn't get points toward AA Dog of the year.  There are a lot of AA dogs that are the same way, they only run in 1 hour trials.  GD is a little different since they have an award for 1 hr GD trials only, and an award for all trials. 

As far as Brit trials go, Wild is off base.  It completely depends on the club putting on the trial.  If they think they can fill the trial with Brits only, they won't open them.  If they can't, they will open them.  Championships are closed.  Doesn't make a rats azz worth of difference though.  Look at the AKC GD Nations results over the years and tell me how Brits stack up.  Better yet, ask Wild.  He was braced against a Brit several years ago.  A Brit cant get points for running in a GSP or setter trial even if they win 100 of them.

[Happy Gilmore]

I know enough about closed trials and all breed trials to know which is more difficult. I haven't uttered a word about trials and how special dogs are that run for an hour compared to ones that run 30 minutes. You keep bringing it up and it has little relavance..

[jetjockey]

It has all the relevance in the world.  Why do you think all the Championships and Nationals are a 1 hour braces?  Its not because people want to sit in the saddle for way more time.  Its because 1 hr braces weed a lot of dogs out.  That is EXACTLY the point of a GFC title.  Because 1 hr trials are so much more dificult.  Thats the reason this is even on the table.  Opening all the AKC trials up to all the breeds the only thing it will do is allow more dogs to go to more trials and allow more Fc's.  Are you trying to say Brits wouldn't have as many FC's if they were open to all AKC breeds?  Bullchit!  Look at the AKC national results!  Brits and GSP's have DOMINATED all other breeds at Nationals!  Like I said earlier, my Brit finished her FC in a trial open to ALL breeds.  What do you think is tougher, an all breed dog with 20 dogs or a Brittany only trial with 40 of the best Brits in the country?  I can answer that, because I've lived it and rode both types of trials.  I'll take an open breed trial all day long if I'm looking for placements. 

Until you've ridden an hour brace, you shouldnt even have an opinion.  I road the last. Our days of the AKC GD Nationals this year.  You should have seen the dogs dropping at 40-50.  Hell, my dog dropped at 30 due to a big cut on her chest.  If it had stopped at 30, I was in the money, and a GWP would have won the entire thing.

[Happy Gilmore]

It has all the relevance in the world.  Why do you think all the Championships and Nationals are a 1 hour braces?  Its not because people want to sit in the saddle for way more time.  Its because 1 hr braces weed a lot of dogs out.  That is EXACTLY the point of a GFC title.  Because 1 hr trials are so much more dificult.  Thats the reason this is even on the table.  Opening all the AKC trials up to all the breeds the only thing it will do is allow more dogs to go to more trials and allow more Fc's.  Are you trying to say Brits wouldn't have as many FC's if they were open to all AKC breeds?  Bullchit!  Look at the AKC national results!  Brits and GSP's have DOMINATED all other breeds at Nationals!  Like I said earlier, my Brit finished her FC in a trial open to ALL breeds.  What do you think is tougher, an all breed dog with 20 dogs or a Brittany only trial with 40 of the best Brits in the country?  I can answer that, because I've lived it and rode both types of trials.  I'll take an open breed trial all day long if I'm looking for placements. 

Until you've ridden an hour brace, you shouldnt even have an opinion.  I road the last. Our days of the AKC GD Nationals this year.  You should have seen the dogs dropping at 40-50.  Hell, my dog dropped at 30 due to a big cut on her chest.  If it had stopped at 30, I was in the money, and a GWP would have won the entire thing.

Well, if you don't want any opinions, keep your mouth shut and don't ask the question. You are soo hell bent on promoting a brittany you can't see through reality. I have never said anything about any venue being harder than another only the negatives that come along with higher titles. In the retriever world, we have some and they have not been positive in my opinion for the health of the sport. If you only want to wish and imagine what will happen instead of looking at facts then, promote your wishes and hope they come true.

You look at your own opinion as the only valid one so, I can't see why you'd even ask a question here....try a britt field trial forum so everyone will agree with you and make you happy. That is my last suggestion.

Until you've run a club for a few years successfully for a few years, you shouldn't have an opinion if you want to take that angle.

[jetjockey]

Last time I checked, I didn't ask for an opinion, I just stated that the AKC is considering a change that a lot of people have been asking about for.  You said yourself that you don't know how the pointing dog trials work, so how do you know how it will effect the sport of HB field trialing.  You said yourself you have helped out at exactly one trial, and it was a weekend trial.  You have never even rode a championship Hb trial, so how would you know anything about them?  And how would you know how competitive they are.  Until you attend a trial where several Breed Pros show up with 30-35 dogs on there strings and half of them are FC's, you don't know what kind of horse power it takes to place in a trial.  Come on down and enter a dog this fall.  You will run against 4 of the top 12 dogs that got called back at the biggest AKC National in history and one that placed a couple years earlier.  But I'll tell you straight up front, those dogs aren't even the best dogs on those Pros strings. I don't get on here and tell you what's good for retriever trials because I don't know squat about retriever trials.  And even though I've attended a couple NSTRA trials and even participated, I don't know enough about them to have any real suggestion about making the sport better or worse.  Attending one single HB trial in the Norrhwest doesn't make you knowledgeable about HB trials.  Hell, like I said before, up until a couple months ago you didn't even know what American Field was, AND you tried to tell me that AKC was a bigger and older club. I love the NW, but the NW is retriever country, it ain't pointing dog country.    I can tell you 100%, until you attend a big cluster trial in the Midwest  or SE where numerous pros attend with 100's of dogs, and then two weeks later ride a weekend trial that is just trying to find enough dogs to run a trial, you don't understand how it works.  Trials in the Midwest and on the east coast are a lot different.  Hell, I've had a Pro from the NW tell me that, and I've seen it for myself.  Pros are the only thing keeping AKC HB trials alive in many places, and Id be willing to bet that 40% of the dogs that run in HB trials have owners that don't own horses.   Without Pros traveling with an enterouge of horses for their owners to ride at trials, those owners wouldn't be in the sport.  That's when the sport fails!  There is white difference in retriever trials because you guys don't need a horse.  There's also a huge difference between NSTRA and HB trials for that same reason.  NSTRA is a hell of a lot closer to retriever trials then it is to HB trials.  Needing a horse changes EVERYTHING.

As far as all breed vs closed breed trials go.  Im not the one who keeps talking about that.  I know it doesn't make a dam bit of difference.  Top dogs are top dogs no matter what the breed.   And it's proven every single year at the AKC All Breed GDNC.  There are a lot of all breed trials out there, and no single breed outshines the other in AKC.  AF, not the case, but in AKC, it doesn't matter, especially when you talk about the big 4 breeds.  There has been many Brits who have finished their FC at all breed trials.  Mine included. 

[Happy Gilmore]

Spent quite a bit of time talking with a judge who judges the East Coast and worked his way back from the mid-west to here to judge the spring trial. He also just judged the HT here in Fall City. He said alot of the grounds on the East Coast really change how a dog runs. Pretty interesting guy who's really nice to listen to talk about how different trial dogs run across the country. He lives locally.