Post by: bearpaw on May 23, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
Since then bullets have improved dramatically. I have been a fan of Barnes bullets since the time I realized that my hunters who were using Barnes were consistently shooting completely through game animals on a regular basis regardless of hitting bone. In fact since many brands of quality bullets have become popular I now recommend breaking a shoulder and hitting vitals as one of the best shots on big game, especially bear.
My son and I have been reading a lot of impressive stories about the long range capabilities of Berger Bullets so we decided to give them a try. He puchased and loaded some .264 Caliber 140 grain Berger VLD at 2600 fps. He also loaded some .264 Caliber 120 grain Barnes TSX at 2850 out of his .260 Remington.
The Barnes bullets held about a 1" group at 100 yards and the Bergers held a slightly tighter 7/8" group at 100 yards. We both liked the fact that the bergers produced a slightly tighter group. He has been bear hunting for a few weeks and finally pulled the trigger on a nice big boar recently.
He took the first shot with the Barnes 120gr. The Barnes entered the chest and exited through the spine, the bear dropped, broken back and unable to get up, the bear was dieing but still had life. He approached the bear and placed a second shot with a Berger bullet through the rib cage from only a few feet to finish off the bear.
When dressing out the bear he saw that he had hit no bone with the Berger bullet. He found what was left of the Berger bullet which had separated and had not exited the opposite side of the bear. Later in the week we weighed the berger bullet, both pieces together weighed only 68 grains, 72 grains of the bullet had fragmented. (sse photo of a new bullet and the two pieces of the recovered bullet below)
As previously mentioned the Barnes bullet had exited as usual so he was unable to recover the bullet that dropped the bear. In the photo below I show a new .30 caliber 180 gr TSX and an identical bullet which was shot into a large block of firewood. The bullet penetrated 24 inches into the wood, stayed in one piece, and weighs exactly 180 grains after recovery.
I was very disapointed to see that the Berger separated especially since it hit no bone. While the Berger did shoot slightly tighter groups and the ballistic coefficient certainly qualifies it as a top choice for long range target shooting, we both plan to continue loading Barnes bullets for most of our big game hunting loads.
Post by: bobcat on May 23, 2012, 10:37:50 AM
Post by: iusmc2002 on May 23, 2012, 10:54:16 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 23, 2012, 10:55:51 AM
I'm sure you'll hear from some Berger fans. There are quite a few. They appear to be either loved or hated.
By the way, I think I just saw your son's Barnes bullet pass overhead. They orbit a few times before dropping harmlessly to earth.
Post by: mkcj on May 23, 2012, 11:06:47 AM
Post by: wadu1 on May 23, 2012, 11:11:05 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 23, 2012, 11:20:42 AM
Post by: Killmore on May 23, 2012, 11:36:51 AM
Post by: Curly on May 23, 2012, 11:46:23 AM
That is why I like Barnes. I can shoot elk from 10 yards to 500 yards and be confident the bullet will open up and punch through so I have a good blood trail. Barnes don't have the best BC, but the slightly lower BC doesn't mean much until you get out past 400 yards or so.
Post by: dontgetcrabs on May 23, 2012, 12:02:24 PM
Post by: Curly on May 23, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 23, 2012, 12:14:38 PM
Post by: bearpaw on May 23, 2012, 01:04:45 PM
That is a pretty good review of the Berger VLD by Barsness. He said he would use the bullet for N. American game from antelope to Caribou.
It was a good review and their results were similar to what we saw with the Berger. I like the way he explained the different views about bullet performance, although he was hired by berger to make the berger sound good.
Quote
I would expect the Berger to be that badly fragged and not exit from being shot from 'a few feet'. The high velocity rips them to pieces. My guess is that if the berger was tested at farther ranges it would hold up better and exit. Barnes seem to work fine at any range.
Keep in mind the berger was loaded at only 2600 fps.
I guess it all depends on what you want from a bullet. :twocents:
Post by: Curly on May 23, 2012, 01:10:23 PM
That is a pretty good review of the Berger VLD by Barsness. He said he would use the bullet for N. American game from antelope to Caribou.
It was a good review and their results were similar to what we saw with the Berger. I like the way he explained the different views about bullet performance, although he was hired by berger to make the berger sound good.
Yeah. And I've read some really good things that he's had to say about Barnes bullets too.
I might try Berger for antelope someday. I figure a 190 or so gr Berger would be good antelope medicine out of my 300 win mag.
Post by: madmack76 on May 23, 2012, 01:31:38 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 23, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
Post by: JohnVH on May 23, 2012, 01:34:00 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 23, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 23, 2012, 02:28:07 PM
Post by: MDGrand on May 23, 2012, 02:53:59 PM
BOTH employ the opposite of what people consider a GOOD hunting bullet.
Berger... I load the 185s in my 300 WSM and the 210s in my 300RUM. Here is my take...
The Berger's philosophy is to NOT have an exit wound. That is NOT what they are for. Similar to a Ballistic tip, they shed all their weight or "dump" all their energy IN the animal. What makes them different from a Ballistic tip.. is their jacket and shape.. they use a J4 Jacket and use the Secant Ogive.. this allows them to go in 3-4 inches in then they blow up like a hand grenade.
MY EXPERIENCE... I have dropped a nice bull and few deer with them.. DRT.. Dead right there.. basically a TON of mushed up organs when the shot was put behind the shoulder.
MY OPINION... GREAT bullet.. Does what its supposed too.. I would not use on a Moose or a Brown Bear as I want pass through performance on those with REALLY heavy bone and hide.. but, they are super accurate and pretty much leave the animal almost exactly where it got hit. Can be finicky for seating depth and because of the Secant Ogive, they wont shoot in all guns, but other that that because of the BC.. they maintain a LOT of energy WAY WAY out there.
Barnes...
I load the 180s in my 300 WSM and 200s in my 300 RUM.. Here is my take... AWESOME bullet... Usually Barnes will be more accurate with less fussing with seating depth, powders etc (at least in my guns).. The Barnes philisophy is obviously Pass Through Performance.. a hole in one side almost guaranteed hole out the other with zero chance of recovering the bullet. Great philosophy.. works pretty well.
MY EXPERIENCE... Dropped my best Muley with a 180 Barnes TSX out of my 300 WSM.. dropped right there.. but I also hit it nicely right behind the shoulder.. did not go anywhere. Also made a couple error shots with them.. hit an animal in the guts a few times.. NOT proud of it.. but it happens.. I lost BOTH animals.
MY OPINION... GREAT bullet.. if properly placed, will drop anything and do its job. HORRIBLE copper fouling though. After trying out 20 rounds for accuracy, the barrel needs a LOT of scrubbing and Butches Bore shine! BUT, not finicky when it comes to reloading.. most rifles like them, until the barrel becomes lined with copper.
Bottom line...
I judge a bullet and caliber by what it can do when an imperfect shot is made... The reason I like magnum calibers as well as a round like a Berger, Accubond over a Barnes in some cases is due to the unloading of energy and shredding of more tissue done with these types of bullets. My humble opinon is that with an imperfect shot, the animal is less likely to keep running with a Berger or Accubond than a Barnes which for example if gut shot will look like a pencil went through it.
OH.. and for super long distance..600 + yards.. The Barnes looses a ton of energy.
:twocents:
Post by: whacker1 on May 23, 2012, 03:01:37 PM
Bullet retains weight and hopefully passes through
bonded bullets
Solid Coppers
etc.
Pros
better blood trail due to entrance and exit
More likely to go through bone
Cons
May pass through without causing enough damage if off target from vitals
Or Bullets designed to fragment and cause massive Trauma
pros
some provide more accurate flight
DRT - Dead Right there is goal due to massive Trauma
cons
less significant blood trail due to a lack of exit wound
I am sure that many of you can find other pros and cons, but these are the pros & cons I debate on my .300 RUM, which I am currently shooting 168 bergers. I shoot them, because I have the best groups out of everything I have shot so far. I couldn't get any of the following to group for me nearly as well as the berger's.
Barnes 165 - 180
Accubonds 165-180
E-tip 165 - 180
I believe that my gun will perform better with shooting heavier bullets into the 200 grains and upward, based on the twist, but I haven't been willing to go to a muzzle brake yet.
I would say (My Opinion) that with the philosophy of shooting a bullet that is designed to Fragment or partially fragment that you are best served with the heaviest bullet you can group and shoot to ensure that you can break bone in addition to causing carnage. I have seen a few .30 caliber 150 grain Nosler Partition found in the front shoulder of Elk, because they never penetrate the shoulder. My 168 Bergers need to shoot more animals to confirm the lethality of them as I have only shot 1 animal with them so far, and it was short range (40 yard) neck shot on a white tail.
My .270 - I shoot 140 grain Nosler Accubonds, because that is what grouped the best so far. So I play both sides of the argument.
Post by: MichaelJ on May 23, 2012, 03:28:59 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but those who don't like the bergers are those whom haven't used them correct?
My rifle killed 2 deer this last season with the 168 Berger VLD's at 2950 fps... MASSIVE trauma and both dropped on impact. The one broadside shot at 162 yds was a heart shot and it looked like somebody turned on a fire hose of blood on the backside (I watch through the spotter). Here's a picture of the heart...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv458%2FMoparKid69%2FIMAG0607.jpg&hash=d85195cf2af4c74d9cc4538b355879c95402aeb4)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv458%2FMoparKid69%2FIMAG0606.jpg&hash=6c7c06c229372e1e3f97da210bf573707ac739d1)
The other buck we killed was at 246 yds quartering to us. Shot just infront of nearside shoulder, into the boiler room with again massive trauma, and still had enough energy to break the offside shoulder and lodged the copper jacket just under the skin. This was a BIG bodied buck too...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv458%2FMoparKid69%2FDixieDeerHunt4.jpg&hash=9b17fb4291d763e1661a49beebdbc45b0b6aa0f1)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv458%2FMoparKid69%2FDixieDeerHunt3.jpg&hash=aa2402d771bcef364d6c4902ab3b0afd84f8bf31)
I would feel 100% confident using these bullets on everything up to elk. Moose or bear I imagine I'd want something like a barnes with more penetrating power unless I was shooting the 210's at 3200 fps+...
Mike
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on May 23, 2012, 03:53:30 PM
Post by: Buckmark on May 23, 2012, 04:18:09 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on May 23, 2012, 05:08:16 PM
Ford.... :chuckle:
Exactly... lol Just don't believe the uneducated opinions which is tough on the net sometimes. But to say the Berger is not a hunting bullet or isn't a performer is not true.
Mike
Post by: bobcat on May 23, 2012, 05:39:52 PM
Post by: kentrek on May 23, 2012, 05:53:49 PM
Obviously the Berger will work for hunting, it's just not what I want in a hunting bullet. The Bergers are made for shooting long range and that's where they shine. But for me, I want a bullet that does good up close. I don't want to spot an elk at 100 yards and then have to turn around and walk a half a mile so I can get a longer shot for which the Berger will work. I would definitely think about using the Bergers for antelope hunting and some mule deer hunting if it were in the type of terrain where shots over 1/4 mile are the norm. But normally where I hunt, a 300 yard shot is a long shot. For that all I need is a Barnes, or an Accubond.
that pic i i posted was a 50 yard shot..there was alil bloodshot going on but it was mostly rib meat any how.the berger is def a long range performaer but i wouldnt discount it as a all around performing bullet,i would say that more difinitively but i need to test em out more ! :chuckle:
Post by: MichaelJ on May 24, 2012, 09:13:01 AM
Obviously the Berger will work for hunting, it's just not what I want in a hunting bullet. The Bergers are made for shooting long range and that's where they shine. But for me, I want a bullet that does good up close. I don't want to spot an elk at 100 yards and then have to turn around and walk a half a mile so I can get a longer shot for which the Berger will work. I would definitely think about using the Bergers for antelope hunting and some mule deer hunting if it were in the type of terrain where shots over 1/4 mile are the norm. But normally where I hunt, a 300 yard shot is a long shot. For that all I need is a Barnes, or an Accubond.
The berger is designed to be a high BC hunting bullet. Thats why Berger makes TARGET vld's as well as HUNTING vld's. Its not like they perform better at distance then they do up close. They just outperform other bullets at distance. I understand some people not wanting to use them because it goes against their train of thought and that is perfectly fine, do what you will. Don't be mistaken however thinking this is a bullet made for punching paper that just works for hunting, that would be more along the lines of the Hornady Amax.
Mike
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 24, 2012, 09:59:17 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on May 24, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
Post by: Curly on May 24, 2012, 10:20:55 AM
I will have to give Bergers a try though. Would like to see how they group.
Post by: bearpaw on May 24, 2012, 10:31:29 AM
Post by: sirmissalot on May 24, 2012, 01:57:26 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on May 24, 2012, 02:02:39 PM
I've experienced the same thing as Dale. If I were a "longrange hunter" I'd probably lean towards a Berger, because that is where they shine. But, to me 300 yards is a fairly long shot, 500 yards is my absolute max range and thats with perfect conditions, although I would much prefer no longer than 400. Many of my shots are 2-300 yards and I like to aim for the shoulder, whether its deer or bear, even elk if I happen to be rifle hunting them, and that is not a shot I would recomend for a Berger based on my personal experience with that bullet.
Just curious and I mean this with all sincerity, but what is your personal experience with that bullet?
Mike
Post by: sirmissalot on May 24, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
Just curious and I mean this with all sincerity, but what is your personal experience with that bullet?
Mike
Specifically the 30 cal 190 grain "hunting" VLD. I have some loaded for a 300WSM now, and have loaded them for a 300 weatherby as well as a 30-378. They are good bullets, but I would put them in a similar category as a nosler ballistic tip as far as weight retention and terminal performance. Personally I have seen this particular bullet (the Berger 30 cal 190 grain) take down animals as small as antelope, to as big as elk and even a couple black bear. They killed them, but I just wasn't impressed with the penetration on any of these animals, but like I said I like to shoot for the shoulder, its just my opinion that this bullet doesn't have the penetration I would prefer. I have told a story on here before of a cow we killed last year with a tag for the margaret, it was about a 80 yard shot just below the head, with a 30-378 and a 190 grain bullet I would have suspected the bullet would have exited but it didn't. Obviously she was DRT but I just wasn't impressed with that bullet, I know how big a bull elks shoulder is and I wouldn't be confident with a quartering-to shot with that particular bullet. :twocents:
Post by: predatorpro on May 24, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Barns are one of the best hunting bullets made today, I'm waiting for pictures and story in the bear section please....i used barnes once for mule deer...will never put another barnes bullet in any of my guns....through alot of trial and error all i use now is bergers for big game, and nosler and sierra for small game...but thats just me
Post by: coachcw on May 24, 2012, 06:46:49 PM
Post by: Killmore on May 24, 2012, 08:11:26 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on May 25, 2012, 08:21:47 AM
If a trophy of a life time is walking straight away I wouldn't be afraid to use the barns on that shot assuming you have enough horsepower. I wouldn't do that with any other bullet.
I wouldn't hesiate for a second with a Scirocco Bonded, Accubond, or Interbond as well. Actually, I did it with a Berger 210 last year. ;)
Post by: high country on May 26, 2012, 07:01:03 AM
A precision rifle, to me does not come into play till the average shot shall be 400 plus yards. To me, a Barnes will work fine...if it hits and only downside is reduced expansion which could lead to more tracking......BUT, if you ever take an animal across a 700yd canyon you will appreciate the on game performance of the berger/smk/scenar as the critters tend to bang flop with well placed shots, and finding the impact site is tough enough without adding the tracking job.
I have a friend who poked a bull with a 210 berger and when the bullet hit the humerous, it either blew up or changed directions. Hard to say if a Barnes would have done the same. I personally pushed this 142smk through both shoulders of a bull at what I consider long range. You can see where it entered the inside scapula and penetrated the width of the bull, breaking the off side shoulder. The bull took not a step and never even twitched. I realize that the smk is not a berger, but if you cut the berger/smk/scenar in half.....you will see they are essentially identical.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz16%2Fgyonemura%2FIMAG0004.jpg&hash=2a629d911c0441339baa1ba0dc28e714ac4f74bd)
Post by: buckfvr on May 26, 2012, 07:09:53 AM
Post by: high country on May 26, 2012, 08:33:30 AM
So, since the SMK is not intended as a hunting bullet, would you also suggest this " Berger " type of performance may also be possible from say, the Hornady A-Max ???
I am pretty sure biggerhammer can answer that one with real world results, I cannot say from experience. I have never spent any time on the amax.....sorry, although I would expect similar results.
Post by: MichaelJ on May 26, 2012, 09:45:46 AM
So, since the SMK is not intended as a hunting bullet, would you also suggest this " Berger " type of performance may also be possible from say, the Hornady A-Max ???
Not true however I could see why you would think that. I was fortunate enough to take a buck at 666 yds two seasons ago with a 162 amax. These bullets do not get the penetration before grenading like the Berger does. I wouldn't trust them to a shoulder shot on anything bigger than a deer. They do cause massive damage though! But will open up on contact with a rib or hard medium unlike the Berger... this year we killed a wolf with an amax quartering away. It hit a rib and tore a hole the size of a football along the side.
Mike
Post by: bearpaw on May 26, 2012, 10:39:32 AM
The shot angle wasn't ideal as the bear was facing sharply away, I figured we were so close it didn't matter, turns out it didn't. :tup:
Due to the angle and the type of hit, I cannot make much comment about the bullet performance other than it killed the bear very quickly.
I will note that this bear had been shot before. On the opposing side I found bullet fragments just inside the skin, the skin and shoulder had a hole that had grissled in, but was definitely visible. It appeared to me that the bear was hit in the shoulder by a bullet that blew up and did not penetrate into the vitals to kill the bear. That was definitely a plus for us because this was a beautiful bear that put a smile on our faces.
It's not my story to tell so I will leave it at that for now.
Post by: wsmnut on May 26, 2012, 10:41:37 AM
All that having been said, for the rifles I load for, the Barnes have been providing great accuracy and dependability. In the past three years 5 deer and 1 elk. All one shot. One deer traveled about 10 feet. Not sure how given the damage inside.
My wife's 270 win, with a 130 TSX shoots MOA. Here is before and after traveling through the boiler room of a large bull elk. Recovered bullet weighs 129.3 gr.
Pic #2 is the elk. One shot angled slightly aft through the boiler room. Found bullet just inside the skin on the far side. It stopped just after breaking a rib. Utter ruin in it's wake. Bull took one step and folded. 130 'ish yards.
Photo #3 is a post mortem shot of another 130 gr. TSX. Wife and her first deer. Trotting up hill at 150 yards. One shot. One step and crashed so hard he ruined the euro mount. Nose all fragmented. Wish I could shoot like her!
The accuracy and performance of these bullets gives the hunter a lot of confidence.
wsmnut
Post by: Guy on May 26, 2012, 10:52:30 AM
Re Berger & Barnes - my last five mule deer, all with the .25-06, two were with the Barnes 100 gr TSX @ 3340 fps, both were instant drops/kills. Three were with the 115 gr Berger VLD at nearly 3200 fps. All three were instant drops. I had to put another bullet into the chest of one buck to kill him as I had only spined him, hitting him from above.
The Barnes TSX bullets exited, the Bergers did not, except in the one instance where the bullet from above struck the spine a glancing blow and then exited via the ribcage, sideways.
I have room for both of them in my toolbox, although for some reason I seem to have gone back to my much appreciated Nosler Partitions, Accubonds and Ballistic Tips.
Berger & Barnes - two very different bullets, but both work. I think the key is understanding how and why they work, and using them appropriately.
Regards, Guy
Post by: high country on May 26, 2012, 11:07:00 AM
Post by: TwoSixFourWins on May 28, 2012, 08:45:39 AM
1. Game type- Heavier game requires stiffer bullets*
2. Expected Shooting distances- If all shoots will be closer then the all copper bullets will be fine as there is enough speed for reliable expansion
Further distances require a more frangible bullet that will expand reliably at the reduced velocity that farther distances bring.
3. Muzzle Velocity- This one goes along with the first two. If you are starting out in the slow lane to begin with, you may just be shooting drill bits
with all coppers. Conversely if you a shooting a faster load then using a frangible bullet may result in premature detonation (how embarrassing)
4. Reputation- When I decide to try a new bullet type I ask around and read a lot. Some peoples opinions are pure bunk and others are solid and you must decide for yourself which is which.
5. This one is the most important to me, preferred bullet placement-No bullet no matter how good or bad it is will kill humanely when shot poorly or into an area it is not intended to go. If I decide to always punch the shoulder then all copper it is. If I shoot behind the shoulder then explosive it is. Either way I must hit my intended target.
For me personally I like an explosive bullet. I do not try and break shoulders as I have never had the need. I have never had a critter that went more than 50 yards after being shot and most crumple up on the spot. I am not using any super magnum or secret bullet. Most of what I claim was done with a 308 with modestly loaded 165gr Ballistic tips or a 6.5x55 with 139gr Soft points. I'll stop rambling now.
Post by: longrangekiller on May 30, 2012, 09:27:50 PM
Post by: Curly on July 07, 2012, 01:32:12 PM
Check out the lab tests comparing Barnes, Nosler, and Berger...................interesting stuff.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 07, 2012, 02:10:25 PM
Post by: Nape.257 on July 07, 2012, 07:36:15 PM
Deer shot with Berger
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f84/my-little-luck-charm-63749/ (http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f84/my-little-luck-charm-63749/)
Deer shot with Barnes
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f84/last-day-buck-39173/ (http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f84/last-day-buck-39173/)
Post by: ellensburgpo on July 07, 2012, 07:43:01 PM
Post by: jess on August 07, 2012, 11:21:16 PM
Post by: highmuley on August 08, 2012, 04:42:59 AM