Post by: kramman on June 13, 2012, 09:55:24 AM
I know i'm not the only one in this situation but I would like to hear from others on here who are in the same boat. How long did you wait for a good tag? Who has more then 10pts and is still waiting for that deer or elk tag.I'm not talking sheep goat or moose we all could put in for those the rest of our lifes and not get drawn.
I'm just frustrated because when the new draw system was put in place the tag we applied for was put into the buck deer category apps went from 1000 to over 2500 and we were all told that this system would give us a better chance of drawing.Now i'm no math wizz but 2500 is more then 1000? I also sat down and spent $500 between my sons and i for tags and apps only to be left to hunt with what i could have spent $$250 on;oh well. Thanks for listening to my rant now lets hear your stories.
kram
Post by: Miles on June 13, 2012, 09:58:56 AM
Post by: bowhunterty on June 13, 2012, 10:08:36 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
You did the right thing by deciding to apply separately, that should have greatly increased your odds of drawing. Keep trying, you'll eventually get it.
Post by: boneaddict on June 13, 2012, 10:13:46 AM
Post by: kramman on June 13, 2012, 10:19:30 AM
Post by: Miles on June 13, 2012, 10:21:30 AM
Miles we hunt the 204 and know of some great whitey spots in there. Just basically love that unit and have always wanted that tag. i have to think though its time to change it up next yr.
Well, good luck next year!
Post by: boneaddict on June 13, 2012, 10:22:41 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 13, 2012, 10:26:06 AM
Post by: kirkl on June 13, 2012, 10:30:23 AM
for a hunt with that many points.
Post by: Buckmark on June 13, 2012, 10:31:59 AM
This is one of many reasons i switched to archery so i could atleast be around the rut.
My Dad who is 72 cant really hike anymore, vision is not what it used to be is getting down to his last season soon, cant even draw the 65 and older tag for that area, now he has 6points and may never get to use them as he says this will be his last year.....
Another thing that really chaps my hide is that we have to choose a weapon and by a tag to put in for the draw, i would rather be able to put in and if drawn great i am rifle hunting in the rut, if not then i can stay with archery, instead if not i am stuck with a general rifle tag...
Post by: kramman on June 13, 2012, 10:35:20 AM
kirkl 16pts? how do manage to keep your sanity? That would drive me completely nuts
Post by: kirkl on June 13, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
Well bone since i've been married for 15 yrs and rarely use them anymore that sounds like an option! hahaha :chuckle:
kirkl 16pts? how do manage to keep your sanity? That would drive me completely nuts
I think im getting a little calmer about it as i get older :chuckle: ive drawn two bull tags over those years so that helps a little. :chuckle:
Post by: Killmore on June 13, 2012, 10:57:25 AM
Post by: B.G.hunter on June 13, 2012, 11:04:06 AM
sell off a testicle and buy the gov tag. Pretty cheap compared to the rest of the gov tags, and consider it a hunt of a lifetime.:chuckle:
Post by: NWBREW on June 13, 2012, 11:06:58 AM
It feels like when you finally get more then a dozen points.....it doesn't really matter how many points. Seems like we would be better off cashing them in and starting over. I wonder what the ratio is for those who draw with less then 10 compared to those with more then 10.sell off a testicle and buy the gov tag. Pretty cheap compared to the rest of the gov tags, and consider it a hunt of a lifetime.:chuckle:
What if you want to buy 3 gov. tags? :o
Post by: Chesapeake on June 13, 2012, 11:10:01 AM
I used to draw cow elk tags every few years. Guys didnt have to compete with me for a bull tag. I havent been able to draw a cow tag since they changed it. Now I drew them guys Margaret bull tag with 5 points. I would have never been in that pool with the old system. I like elk meat too much to wait 15 years for a bull tag when there were cow tags to have.
You guys never had to compete with me for Whitetails either. I only put in for premier late season mule deer tags. This year the Okanogan late whitetail hunts were my buck choices 1,2, and 3. My #4 was Palouse and I drew it, taking a tag away from a guy that would have never had to compete with me and my points built up trying for a mule deer tag all these years.
The good news. I'm burning points, so you wont have to compete with my points. But I'll still put my name in the pot next year, just hoping to get lucky.
I liked the old system better for my draw strategy. I've had to change it up a little.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 13, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
Post by: NWBREW on June 13, 2012, 11:15:46 AM
as far as whitetail ...we already have good late season hunts open and if you want a whitetail then head N.E ....there is alot of area where a guy can kill some nice whitetail no need to waste money on special whitetail tags when we have decent opportunity already ... :twocents: ;)
Agreed 100% with that.
Post by: kramman on June 13, 2012, 11:22:18 AM
here's a ? and maybe its been brought up has anyone drawn a quality tag and a buck tag in the same year losing pts. in both? can you give back a tag if that were to happen? Thought about this as i was applyin this yr. thinkin that would really suck to get drawn for both
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 13, 2012, 11:28:35 AM
And as far as permits go? I would like to tell you my success story but I've never drawn any kind of permit in this state. 9 years running now.
Post by: NWBREW on June 13, 2012, 11:31:11 AM
here's a ? and maybe its been brought up has anyone drawn a quality tag and a buck tag in the same year losing pts. in both? can you give back a tag if that were to happen?
Answer to question # 1 is yes.
Answer to question # 2 is NO or maybe yes....I am sure you can give it back but you won't get anything in return. :chuckle:
Post by: bigpaw 77 on June 13, 2012, 12:00:34 PM
Post by: Chesapeake on June 13, 2012, 12:03:56 PM
Post by: deadyote on June 13, 2012, 12:04:34 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 13, 2012, 12:25:14 PM
Post by: link on June 13, 2012, 12:25:56 PM
Post by: Glockster on June 13, 2012, 01:19:21 PM
Plus all these "preference" points I'm accumulating make me feel like a rich man.
Post by: Chesapeake on June 13, 2012, 02:24:54 PM
I love watching guys get so wound up about the WA draws, loosing sleep; attempting to the calculate odds, salivating over backdoor results info...it's every bit as entertaining as watching a public boat launch on a hot summers day.
Plus all these "preference" points I'm accumulating make me feel like a rich man.
Where did you get "preference" points? Maybe Wyoming????
Washington doesnt have "preference" points. We have "bonus" points. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 13, 2012, 02:31:39 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
Post by: RadSav on June 13, 2012, 02:48:27 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.:tup: :tup: Our odds were better before the point system and all the multiple choices.
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 03:00:13 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.
Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?
You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.
The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 03:01:07 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 03:06:01 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 03:08:18 PM
Well as much as some would like to we are not going to be going back to that system anytime soon. WDFW would lose money if we did. What i suggested improves odds and WDFW doesn't lose any money.
I just don't understand how that would improve odds. Not for EVERY permit. Sure, certain permits that aren't very popular will get less applicants because they won't get listed as a 2nd choice like they do now. But I think it would change odds very little.
Post by: bigelk1030 on June 13, 2012, 03:09:35 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 03:09:48 PM
If a unit gives out 10 tags and it has 1000a people put in for it first choice and 1000 people put in for it second chioce then your odds are 10 in 2000. If you only onlu get one choice and and the same 1000 people put in for it first choice then the odds are 10 in 1000.
I know that sounds better but in the real world I don't think it would work quite like that. For one thing, you would be limited to only one unit to draw, where before you had two chances. Thinking of it that way, your odds just got cut in half!
Post by: B.G.hunter on June 13, 2012, 03:10:36 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.:yeah:
I would also like you choose between Goat, Moose and Sheep or Deer and Elk so the odds would actually be attainable for the OIL species.
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 03:11:11 PM
Post by: Glockster on June 13, 2012, 03:11:24 PM
I love watching guys get so wound up about the WA draws, loosing sleep; attempting to the calculate odds, salivating over backdoor results info...it's every bit as entertaining as watching a public boat launch on a hot summers day.
Plus all these "preference" points I'm accumulating make me feel like a rich man.
Where did you get "preference" points? Maybe Wyoming????
Washington doesnt have "preference" points. We have "bonus" points. :twocents:
I know....it's so tuff to keep up with all the draw jargon; 'OIL tags', 'quality', 'bonus points', 'ghost points' ....When I apply to hunting places like Montana and NM their reg books are not nearly as many pages.
Post by: boneaddict on June 13, 2012, 06:51:34 PM
Post by: link on June 13, 2012, 06:55:13 PM
YOU WANT TO REALLY improve odds. If you apply for OIL, you can't apply for deer or elk.Or, maybe Deer plus one OIL, or elk plus one OIL. Never going to make everyone happy.
Post by: Wea300mag on June 13, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.
I agree, WDFW is not going to limit the number of permits you can apply for, that would cut their cash flow.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 13, 2012, 07:05:31 PM
this is a really good point here now ... everyone I know who drew a tag was with less than 10 pts including myself and my son .... You may have something here :hello:It feels like when you finally get more then a dozen points.....it doesn't really matter how many points. Seems like we would be better off cashing them in and starting over. I wonder what the ratio is for those who draw with less then 10 compared to those with more then 10.sell off a testicle and buy the gov tag. Pretty cheap compared to the rest of the gov tags, and consider it a hunt of a lifetime.:chuckle:
What if you want to buy 3 gov. tags? :o
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 13, 2012, 07:08:53 PM
We don't have Bonus points we have Ghost points because the points just seem to mean nothing and disappear come draw time.:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: You guys kill me :yeah: :tup: :tup:
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 07:10:20 PM
YOU WANT TO REALLY improve odds. If you apply for OIL, you can't apply for deer or elk.
Won't happen. They lose money that way. I could see this working thou, if we could apply for either OIL tags or deer and elk tags and at the same time apply for points only for the other. This way they don't lose money but odds will get better.
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 07:12:20 PM
this is a really good point here now ... everyone I know who drew a tag was with less than 10 pts including myself and my son .... You may have something here :hello:It feels like when you finally get more then a dozen points.....it doesn't really matter how many points. Seems like we would be better off cashing them in and starting over. I wonder what the ratio is for those who draw with less then 10 compared to those with more then 10.sell off a testicle and buy the gov tag. Pretty cheap compared to the rest of the gov tags, and consider it a hunt of a lifetime.:chuckle:
What if you want to buy 3 gov. tags? :o
That's probably because the majority don't have more points than that. In addition to that fact, those who do have a lot of points, always have higher and higher standards every year as their number of points increases. Meaning the more points they have, the more they apply for the most difficult to draw hunts.
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 07:15:06 PM
this is a really good point here now ... everyone I know who drew a tag was with less than 10 pts including myself and my son .... You may have something here :hello:It feels like when you finally get more then a dozen points.....it doesn't really matter how many points. Seems like we would be better off cashing them in and starting over. I wonder what the ratio is for those who draw with less then 10 compared to those with more then 10.sell off a testicle and buy the gov tag. Pretty cheap compared to the rest of the gov tags, and consider it a hunt of a lifetime.:chuckle:
What if you want to buy 3 gov. tags? :o
That's probably because the majority don't have more points than that. In addition to that fact, those who do have a lot of points, always have higher and higher standards every year as their number of points increases. Meaning the more points they have, the more they apply for the most difficult to draw hunts.
I agree with bobcat.
Post by: boneaddict on June 13, 2012, 07:41:22 PM
Idaho has this and has THE BEST draw odds for OIL hunts ever. I hear that is about to change though.....
Post by: trophyhunt on June 13, 2012, 07:44:09 PM
I agree Bigshooter. They won't change it to something where they will lose money.Say it isn't so???? They thought about a point system a couple years ago but decided against it, are they changing their mind???
Idaho has this and has THE BEST draw odds for OIL hunts ever. I hear that is about to change though.....
Post by: Bigshooter on June 13, 2012, 07:46:44 PM
I agree Bigshooter. They won't change it to something where they will lose money.
Idaho has this and has THE BEST draw odds for OIL hunts ever. I hear that is about to change though.....
What's ID going to change?
Post by: RadSav on June 13, 2012, 07:55:58 PM
Post by: 3nails on June 13, 2012, 08:12:06 PM
The system is definitely screwed up big time. It was perfectly fine until they decided to change it 2 years ago. There's no need for a "buck" category and "quality deer" category. Now people who never would have applied for those whitetail permits, because they were applying for mule deer permits, DO apply for them, just because they can.I completely agree. My hunting partner put in for Chewuch quality and Sinlahekin buck. He drew both but now obviously has to waste the buck tag. Would have been a good hunt. No way is the state going back though because thier making too much money this way. I also put in for both hunts but didn't draw either. Wish I could have his Sinlahekin tag!
You did the right thing by deciding to apply separately, that should have greatly increased your odds of drawing. Keep trying, you'll eventually get it.
Post by: Bean Counter on June 13, 2012, 08:20:12 PM
Plus it's tax deductible:yike:
:bdid:
:twocents:
Post by: smdave on June 13, 2012, 08:38:08 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 13, 2012, 08:40:24 PM
Nails I would take that Chewach tag any day over that Sinlahekin tag :dunno:The system is definitely screwed up big time. It was perfectly fine until they decided to change it 2 years ago. There's no need for a "buck" category and "quality deer" category. Now people who never would have applied for those whitetail permits, because they were applying for mule deer permits, DO apply for them, just because they can.I completely agree. My hunting partner put in for Chewuch quality and Sinlahekin buck. He drew both but now obviously has to waste the buck tag. Would have been a good hunt. No way is the state going back though because thier making too much money this way. I also put in for both hunts but didn't draw either. Wish I could have his Sinlahekin tag!
You did the right thing by deciding to apply separately, that should have greatly increased your odds of drawing. Keep trying, you'll eventually get it.
Post by: 3nails on June 13, 2012, 08:47:44 PM
Definately! But since you can get drawn for both I'd take it as a back up. :tup:Nails I would take that Chewach tag any day over that Sinlahekin tag :dunno:The system is definitely screwed up big time. It was perfectly fine until they decided to change it 2 years ago. There's no need for a "buck" category and "quality deer" category. Now people who never would have applied for those whitetail permits, because they were applying for mule deer permits, DO apply for them, just because they can.I completely agree. My hunting partner put in for Chewuch quality and Sinlahekin buck. He drew both but now obviously has to waste the buck tag. Would have been a good hunt. No way is the state going back though because thier making too much money this way. I also put in for both hunts but didn't draw either. Wish I could have his Sinlahekin tag!
You did the right thing by deciding to apply separately, that should have greatly increased your odds of drawing. Keep trying, you'll eventually get it.
Post by: steen on June 13, 2012, 09:01:22 PM
I am with you on the draw, I have the full 17 points for all the elk categories. This is good and bad, admittedly I am ghosting the cow tags now because I would hate to burn one if I was drawn for a bull tag. For bulls, I have put in every year for modern rifle Margaret and Green River and never a draw. My plan is to continue the same. Sad to think that that I haven't been drawn for 17 years.............
If I were you I would ghost your bull tags until after you draw your cow tag then you could continue to accrue points for another cow. :twocents:
I hunt every year regardless of drawing. The draw is a bonus. I happened to draw two tags, buck deer in the Blues (I think) and 2nd deer , a whitetail doe (in Alta I think). I had plans for my blacktail this year for general season (backup plan in case I didn't draw or my first plan) and will have to wait til next year. (this year would be prime year to hunt my spot due to new logging and a bear I'd like to take. Guess I'm going after just a bear this year or take my daughter hunting.
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on June 13, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.
Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?
You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.
The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)
Completely wrong, cutting the choices in half does make the odds better. Think if you have 4 choices for 100 people that is potentially 400 different tags. If they have 2 choices now that is only 200 potential tag differences. It would make a huge difference, almost like the way it was before with 1 choice, either bull or cow etc....
Post by: buckreaper on June 13, 2012, 10:30:04 PM
I also agree with the point that when they split into this category system and your points were put into each that I started putting in for permits that I never would have before. I have hunted whitetails for years in the NE but saw this as a chance to hunt some different country. I know what it feels like to have a "stranger" hunting an area you know very well but can't draw the permit to hunt there yourself. We hunted a unit for over 20 years and did very well. Then the game department decided to turn it into a permit area about ten years ago and none of us have drawn it since.
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2012, 10:42:41 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.
Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?
You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.
The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)
Completely wrong, cutting the choices in half does make the odds better. Think if you have 4 choices for 100 people that is potentially 400 different tags. If they have 2 choices now that is only 200 potential tag differences. It would make a huge difference, almost like the way it was before with 1 choice, either bull or cow etc....
That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application.
Post by: bigelk1030 on June 13, 2012, 10:43:14 PM
Thanks Steen, next year I will think about that strategy of grabbing a cow tag first, especially if it would help me scout out an area for a bull hunt later (such as Margaret).I am with you on the draw, I have the full 17 points for all the elk categories. This is good and bad, admittedly I am ghosting the cow tags now because I would hate to burn one if I was drawn for a bull tag. For bulls, I have put in every year for modern rifle Margaret and Green River and never a draw. My plan is to continue the same. Sad to think that that I haven't been drawn for 17 years.............
If I were you I would ghost your bull tags until after you draw your cow tag then you could continue to accrue points for another cow. :twocents:
The good news is my son who is 12 has a couple points now, so a group cow hunt for both of us is a good possibility (my 17 + his 2 =19/2 = 9.5 points) assuming the round down to 9 we should have a good chance for a partner cow hunt.
Post by: Wacenturion on June 13, 2012, 11:27:03 PM
That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500. Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw. With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again. Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.
Post by: huntnnw on June 14, 2012, 02:23:24 AM
No story here, but why don't you just hunt the NE corner during the rut? 10 years of hunting/scouting in the NE corner and you would've had some good bucks by now.
:yeah:
Post by: huntnnw on June 14, 2012, 02:24:54 AM
I think a person should only be able to apply for one permit per species per year. How many permits are wasted because somebody drew two permits? I'm guilty of doing it the last couple years only because I drew a quality deer permit two years ago so my chances of drawing it again are extremely small. Possible, but not likely. But, that would be a rule I could easily live with. Accrue points in the other categories by ghosting. I drew the 204 buck permit this year but I had 14 points.
I also agree with the point that when they split into this category system and your points were put into each that I started putting in for permits that I never would have before. I have hunted whitetails for years in the NE but saw this as a chance to hunt some different country. I know what it feels like to have a "stranger" hunting an area you know very well but can't draw the permit to hunt there yourself. We hunted a unit for over 20 years and did very well. Then the game department decided to turn it into a permit area about ten years ago and none of us have drawn it since.
:chuckle: in this state?? this state is all about the mighty dollar not the game or the hunter
Post by: huntnnw on June 14, 2012, 02:28:44 AM
WDFW created the problem to begin with. With all the choices, it opens Pandora's box. Should have been ONE choice and ONE choice only for areas. That way the odds were in our favor. For the most part with the exception of hard to draw hunts, we got our favorite area(s) every couple years. Now with all the choices and pile on that, all the doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while putting in for buck, bull or quality, the odds are in the next galaxy.
That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500. Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw. With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again. Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.
As point systems work in the west NV may have a better system but followed by WA.. try the other states its a joke. In UT some are 20+ points now..what if u were born today and become a hunter? your screwed!! I see a major overhaul in point systems in some states and resulting in many angry hunters
Post by: Wacenturion on June 14, 2012, 09:41:55 AM
WDFW created the problem to begin with. With all the choices, it opens Pandora's box. Should have been ONE choice and ONE choice only for areas. That way the odds were in our favor. For the most part with the exception of hard to draw hunts, we got our favorite area(s) every couple years. Now with all the choices and pile on that, all the doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while putting in for buck, bull or quality, the odds are in the next galaxy.
That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500. Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw. With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again. Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.
As point systems work in the west NV may have a better system but followed by WA.. try the other states its a joke. In UT some are 20+ points now..what if u were born today and become a hunter? your screwed!! I see a major overhaul in point systems in some states and resulting in many angry hunters
It's not necessarily the points, but rather the choices for the most part. Here's the example I'll use. My favorite hunt to apply for is Blue Mtn. Foothills A( but I think it's called west now). Twenty plus years ago years myself and other applicants used to be able to draw every 3-4 years like clockwork. Total applicants was 500-600 every year for 100 permits. :tup:
Then WDFW got cute and allowed for four choices. Applicant numbers rose from approximately 600 to 2000 plus or minus. Frequency of me drawing my favorite permit went down. Then to make even more money, WDFW decided that they'll allow hunters to put in under new revisions whereby they can apply for all...quality, buck and antlerless. If say a doe hunter gets drawn for quality or buck, they don't loose their antlerless points and conversely buck or quality type applicants don't lose their points if they draw antlerless. :bdid:
Problem is myself and I would venture to say most other quality and buck applicants do not have any interest in putting in for antlerless you idiots (wdfw). However, antlerless applicants would surely put in for quality or buck under this scenario. Now my chances of drawing my favorite permit is almost non existent as applicant numbers has risen again to around 2400. This is especially true if I draw again. :sry:
One side note.....during that favorite hunt of mine (that in the rut whitetail hunt), the morons at WDFD in their infinite wildlife management wisdom, have also allowed for 100 doe permits at the same time. For crying out loud, if you want to reduce herd numbers, do it during the general, not during quality rut time. That is so moronic it's ridiculous! :bash:
Washington joined the rush to "be like Mike" with the screwy permit systems out west. The hell with that crap. One choice, one choice only. Everyone put in for your personal favorite and all this nonsense goes away. We don't have to be like the rest of the west. This is all about money and nothing about management. Of course that doesn't apply to moose, sheep, goat, or many of the hard to draw limited permit deer (Desert) or elk (Blues, etc.) draws. :twocents:
Post by: WildBear on June 14, 2012, 10:34:31 AM
Post by: outfishu2 on June 14, 2012, 11:17:22 AM
Post by: cmiller85 on June 14, 2012, 12:18:49 PM
One easy way to improve the odds. Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half. For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices. WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.
Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?
You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.
The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)
Completely wrong, cutting the choices in half does make the odds better. Think if you have 4 choices for 100 people that is potentially 400 different tags. If they have 2 choices now that is only 200 potential tag differences. It would make a huge difference, almost like the way it was before with 1 choice, either bull or cow etc....
That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application.
I see what you are saying bobcat. You're right, only 100 people in your example will get a tag. But to better reflect our draw system we need to take it a step further because we have multiple Quality Deer hunts and not just one.
For instance, using your example, say there are two hunts, A and B, that the 5,000 people apply for and they each get two choices. Now, 4,000 people apply for Hunt A (highly coveted) and 1,000 people apply for hunt B. Each applicant applies for the opposite tag on thier 2nd choice. What we would have is something like this:
Hunt A Hunt B
1st choice: 4,000 1,000
2nd choice: 1,000 4,000
Based on this simple example, it is easy to see how the odds for each hunt would improve by eliminating the 2nd choice we get when applying for special permits. Assuming people know what they are doing and don't change their 1st choice hunt from year to year, I don't see how eliminating the 2nd choice would increase the odds for any hunts. I could be wrong tho. :dunno:
You're absolutely right though in that the only really good way to increase drawing odds is to limit people to one category per species. You could increase odds even more drastically than this by limiting people to choosing one SPECIES. Let them buy ghost points for everything else. We wouldn't even need to eliminate all the categories.
Post by: Wacenturion on June 14, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
"That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application."
You are assuming backwards. Look at it this way....5000 total applicants for say 10 permit areas with 100 permits each. One choice only and for sake of example you get a somewhat equal split statewide of say 500 applications per permit unit plus or minus competing for 100 permits in each unit.
Add additional choices up to four and you get approximately 5000 applicants X 4 choices or 20,000 total applications. Therefore 20,000 applications spread across four 10 permit units statewide equal 2000 per permit unit, and not the average of 500 when only one choice.
Thus you chances of drawing one of the 100 permits in your first choice (and the others for that matter) go from 500 applications for 100 permits up now to 2000 applications for the same 100.
Then add additional applications via doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while competing with buck/bull/quality applicants and the total number of applications go even higher, if you are strictly a buck/bull/quality only applicant. If you draw, you'll wait a looooooong time before you draw your area again....fact. It's the odds and they are not your friend. They are against you.
Sucks huh? More opportunity...I think not.