Post by: str8meat on February 12, 2020, 09:43:16 AM
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 10:09:28 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 10:23:15 AM
Whenever this state gets a stable population with something they make a free for all and Devistate a good thing.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on February 12, 2020, 10:52:35 AM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.
:yeah: 100%
Post by: grundy53 on February 12, 2020, 10:58:50 AM
Was it the over the counter bow hunters that caused the herd decline or the modern rifle slaughter permit fest. Archery hasn't been the leading cause in herd decline. So why should we make the hardest weapon to harvest even harder. " Yes I see your post agreeing with the permits slaughter". While we are at it let's shorten modern spike season to half the days afield. And get a post hunt rate recovery of bulls up and get more cows bred.Regardless of who reduced the population, the herd needs help. Unregulated killing of cows won't help.
Whenever this state gets a stable population with something they make a free for all and Devistate a good thing.
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Post by: BreezyBear on February 12, 2020, 11:00:28 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2020, 11:09:54 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:12:00 AM
Also what I'm saying here isn't based off the couple post on this thread
Post by: ghosthunter on February 12, 2020, 11:14:24 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:16:20 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:25:18 AM
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 11:29:22 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:33:48 AM
Yes as of last year there was still a late season spike or antlerless for little natches.
Also appears they will continue antlerless hunts for archery at this time.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 11:42:16 AM
I personally haven't seen anything wrong with the Yakima heard. I do see less people in the area's that hold elk though. I'm not complaining, just an observation. Maybe the stats they use to assume heard health are lacking important details. :dunno::yeah: yakima herds are down a bit from HISTORIC ALL TIME HIGHS of a few years ago but still a VERY healthy and robust population.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2020, 11:44:32 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 11:47:28 AM
I've said it countless times, these permit cut backs have been a knee jerk reaction by wdfw. This year will be no different. They will fly the sage country (winter range) looking to count elk but a good number of elk never came down and the ones that did have already started back up to their transitional zones aka timber. They will have low counts and in turn low permit numbers.
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:50:48 AM
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 11:53:02 AM
What percentage do you think don’t come down for free food? How much snow does it take for them all to come down. If they all even do?
Just trying to learn
Post by: grundy53 on February 12, 2020, 12:45:58 PM
Yet the higher weapon still gets a cow tag opportunity. Herds are in bad shape. Then why are they even giving any modern tags for cow.If a herd is having trouble there shouldn't be any cow permits for rifle season.
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Post by: WSU on February 12, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 01:27:49 PM
Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.
In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk. This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.
In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk. 237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd. Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)
So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.
53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits". That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".
I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds. I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit. Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 01:53:33 PM
The depredation thing comes up often enough that I actually emailed the WDFW to ask about them.those are some janky numbers. I know of more than 7 off of just one ranch :chuckle:
Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.
In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk. This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.
In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk. 237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd. Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)
So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.
53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits". That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".
I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds. I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit. Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 01:59:28 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 02:55:58 PM
Were they actually depredation tags or were they masterhunter tags and special permits?The depredation thing comes up often enough that I actually emailed the WDFW to ask about them.those are some janky numbers. I know of more than 7 off of just one ranch :chuckle:
Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.
In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk. This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.
In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk. 237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd. Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)
So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.
53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits". That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".
I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds. I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit. Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
I questioned the high number of permits compared to actual reported harvest and was told that they follow on permits issued to make sure they get accurate counts of animals harvested. Kill permits are not included in harvest data provided to the public because it would make an area look like a higher success rate when those permits aren't available to joe blow hunter.
Harvest numbers from kill permits are used when setting the next years seasons however.
Post by: ThurstonCokid on February 12, 2020, 03:04:52 PM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.
This. I’ve herd of orchards taking 30 cows a year..
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Post by: vandeman17 on February 12, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on February 12, 2020, 04:53:50 PM
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Post by: W_Ellison2011 on February 12, 2020, 06:05:04 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 08:12:18 PM
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 08:41:04 PM
Post by: syoungs on February 12, 2020, 09:02:50 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
I was under the impression that they tried to balance bull vs cow by how many would actually need to be bred. Ie; wouldn't need 100 bulls to serive 125 cows.
Maybe that's wrong? I truly dont know, and I feel like I should.
Post by: Matth on February 13, 2020, 08:03:15 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2020, 08:21:17 AM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.this isn't quit how the science works. If you have 50 cows and 20 bulls and they are all successful you would get 50 calves. If you had 100 cows and 20 bulls you are gonna get 100 calves. Bulls can't have babies. More cow tags are issued to DECREASE a population not bull tags.
Post by: 7mmfan on February 13, 2020, 08:37:22 AM
Post by: Cheif on February 13, 2020, 09:43:12 AM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 13, 2020, 11:36:21 AM
Just sayin.
Post by: grundy53 on February 13, 2020, 02:05:36 PM
Spot onSo... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.this isn't quit how the science works. If you have 50 cows and 20 bulls and they are all successful you would get 50 calves. If you had 100 cows and 20 bulls you are gonna get 100 calves. Bulls can't have babies. More cow tags are issued to DECREASE a population not bull tags.
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Post by: gotcha on February 13, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 13, 2020, 04:17:22 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on February 13, 2020, 04:26:41 PM
OTC any legal weapon cow tags August through March.
I love elk hunting Oregon but wow it's going to be a massacre this year. I know lots of elk-damage tags used to get issued, and if you went through an outfitter you could even exchange your unused fall bull tag for an elk-damage cow tag in January on ranch land for a small fee. Now it's just OTC August through March for cows in those units. The elk herd I like to hunt in the mountains in September migrates into that zone in the winter. Very frustrating.
Post by: Special T on February 13, 2020, 05:09:25 PM
If you are concerned about your future hunting opportunities get involved.
Post by: Rainier10 on February 20, 2020, 06:25:13 PM
I sent in my comments and asked that they give archery guys the option for permit cow.
Post by: Special T on February 20, 2020, 11:27:49 PM
Last year they tried to make colockum permit for cow. People went nuts and they took away the cow permits, gave a few more to rifle and muzzy guys and went OTC archery cow. This year they pulled the OTC plug and filled it with zero archery cow tags.I belive that was 2 years ago the 2018 season.
I sent in my comments and asked that they give archery guys the option for permit cow.
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Post by: Onewhohikes on February 21, 2020, 05:39:37 AM
Post by: KopperBuck on February 21, 2020, 10:35:43 AM
For those complaining about Washington cow elk tags....Oregon DFW would like you to "here, hold my beer we can top that" ....
OTC any legal weapon cow tags August through March.
I love elk hunting Oregon but wow it's going to be a massacre this year. I know lots of elk-damage tags used to get issued, and if you went through an outfitter you could even exchange your unused fall bull tag for an elk-damage cow tag in January on ranch land for a small fee. Now it's just OTC August through March for cows in those units. The elk herd I like to hunt in the mountains in September migrates into that zone in the winter. Very frustrating.
I don't think that it's going to be a massacre. I think you're going to have a lot of people that buy those tags and find out they don't have a place to hunt. Sure, there's some public land mixed in there, but not much. And not all those tags go till March, just where they really want them moved out. Some areas are very low density. For those, like myself, that utilize damage tags this is so much easier. Especially in areas with lots of broken up parcels.
Specifically in my area, ODFW cut the tag date because of the migration. I actually applaud ODFW on this move.
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 07:58:40 AM
Post by: Jhughes32 on April 05, 2020, 08:05:24 AM
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 08:07:36 AM
Post by: Bango skank on April 05, 2020, 08:13:02 AM
Where did you find the notes
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings/2020/april-9-10-meeting-agenda
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 05, 2020, 08:35:41 AM
I also have a hard time with the statement that they could not do 2020 population surveys because of the mild winter and lack of elk in normal wintering areas. So they just automatically assume the population is down. Now that's science for ya. :bash:
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 09:12:40 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 09:45:54 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on April 05, 2020, 10:14:25 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 05, 2020, 10:24:18 AM
I am glad to see that they reduced all user groups.
I feel like looking at these proposal it might not be so bad if they just cancel the season. Numbers should be way up next year.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 11:09:15 AM
Post by: jstone on April 05, 2020, 11:19:58 AM
Post by: jstone on April 05, 2020, 11:21:16 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 11:28:32 AM
Post by: hunter399 on April 05, 2020, 11:41:42 AM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw. One way seems very radical but it’s a way, open all Yakima gmu’s up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, you’d think the tribes would have to wake up!Starve them out .You guys act like your fighting world war 1 here.
Post by: Archry on April 05, 2020, 11:48:46 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw. One way seems very radical but it’s a way, open all Yakima gmu’s up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, you’d think the tribes would have to wake up!
Exactly. What's the point of having two separate seasons and regulations for two different groups of people in the same area? If the WDFW would just adopt the Yakama's seasons and limits (no limits) for us, the tribe would be forced to begin talking and cooperating with the state to set reasonable regulations that would work better for all of us.
Post by: hunter399 on April 05, 2020, 11:53:08 AM
Post by: Bango skank on April 05, 2020, 12:01:13 PM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw. One way seems very radical but it’s a way, open all Yakima gmu’s up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, you’d think the tribes would have to wake up!
Exactly. What's the point of having two separate seasons and regulations for two different groups of people in the same area? If the WDFW would just adopt the Yakama's seasons and limits (no limits) for us, the tribe would be forced to begin talking and cooperating with the state to set reasonable regulations that would work better for all of us.
The samson option. I like it. :tup:
Post by: str8meat on April 05, 2020, 08:41:32 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Post by: RobinHoodlum on April 07, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
If you look at the graphs on page 8 & 12 of Brock's presentation, he's projecting even limited cow harvest keeping these 2 populations under objective over the next few years (is it a coincidence his graph spans next 3-year package?). Given the base population sizes, there's something not right about this and I'd be interested to know what assumptions were used. Regardless, expect draw only for the next 3 years as well.
Then, think to yourself, will they actually return to OTC tags after that or just keep enjoying the extra revenue coming from antlerless draw fees? Further, staying with draw only allows game managers (and others) to feel like populations are being managed with more "precision". Which is farce when there are other unknown/unanticipated significant mortality sources (tribal, damage, predators).
I generally try to be optimistic, but we dont seem to be living in an era of liberalizing harvest opportunity. So, archers better be prepared to rally or kiss OTC cow tags goodbye for good.
Some of these have already been pointed out, but a few things that really suck about this:
- Virtually no data to support this decision for Yakima herd (and no plan to improve survey methods)
- Level of cow harvest by tribes unknown and will continue unabated if not increase
- Proportion of cow harvest under the auspices of "damage" is at an all time high (27% for the Clock) and will soon be the primary source of cow mortality
- Between 2015 & 2017, the department issued hundreds of modern and muzzy cow tags EVERY year in EACH GMU for many of these same GMUs, which is how we got here in the first place
- Most other weapon users (and even some archers for Pete's sake!) either ignore or choose not to consider these facts and support these changes
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 07, 2020, 03:33:27 PM
Post by: gasman on April 07, 2020, 05:35:18 PM
Once they go to permits for AR Henry, it will never go back....... Cam6you say, "Money Grab"......
I knew you could......
This is what they did to us with the spike only rule, then bull permits, then increase bull permits. It was suppose to go back when herd made it's rebound, but never did be ausenthey would lose the $$$$$$$
Post by: Oh Mah on April 07, 2020, 08:53:29 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
Post by: ribka on April 07, 2020, 09:41:00 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 07, 2020, 09:53:31 PM
No mention of the elephant in there room and its impact on elk: tribal hunting:yeah: the state won’t even acknowledge the room, much less the animal in it!So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
Post by: buglebrush on April 07, 2020, 10:43:03 PM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.
100% agree. And the real answer is to kill more predators. I'm tired of the knee jerk reaction to always be to limit opportunity. :bash:
Post by: SuperX on April 08, 2020, 07:33:59 AM
Take those quality hunts and dumpster them, they are a scam.