Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: str8meat on February 12, 2020, 09:43:16 AM

Title: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: str8meat on February 12, 2020, 09:43:16 AM
East side draw cows for archery? Bet the west side sees a huge growth in hunters for archery. This is the rumor buzzing around wdfw. Not sure if they really have a clue.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 10:09:28 AM
I think itís a great idea. This is a fall out from a few years ago when they gave out way to many permits.!! Hundreds and hundreds. That just hurt the cows. There must management every time they come up with something like that.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 10:23:15 AM
Was it the over the counter bow hunters that caused the herd decline or the modern rifle slaughter permit fest. Archery hasn't been the leading cause in herd decline. So why should we make the hardest weapon to harvest even harder. " Yes I see your post agreeing with the permits slaughter". While we are at it let's shorten modern spike season to half the days afield. And get a post hunt rate recovery of bulls up and get more cows bred.

Whenever this state gets a stable population with something they make a free for all and Devistate a good thing.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: vandeman17 on February 12, 2020, 10:52:35 AM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.

 :yeah: 100%
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: grundy53 on February 12, 2020, 10:58:50 AM
Was it the over the counter bow hunters that caused the herd decline or the modern rifle slaughter permit fest. Archery hasn't been the leading cause in herd decline. So why should we make the hardest weapon to harvest even harder. " Yes I see your post agreeing with the permits slaughter". While we are at it let's shorten modern spike season to half the days afield. And get a post hunt rate recovery of bulls up and get more cows bred.

Whenever this state gets a stable population with something they make a free for all and Devistate a good thing.
Regardless of who reduced the population,  the herd needs help. Unregulated killing of cows won't help.

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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: BreezyBear on February 12, 2020, 11:00:28 AM
READY
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2020, 11:09:54 AM
I personally haven't seen anything wrong with the Yakima heard. I do see less people in the area's that hold elk though. I'm not complaining, just an observation. Maybe the stats they use to assume heard health are lacking important details.  :dunno:

Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:12:00 AM
Trust me I do agree the herd needs help. Just having a discussion based off of comments I hear on a daily basis about different user groups thinking they are entitled too all opportunity with no cutbacks and the other user groups are in need of major cutbacks due too herds suffering. Comments like we shouldn't see a reduction in modern permits but archery needs to quit killing all the elk. Then I look at the units that individual talks about and that unit has way more elk shot with a rifle then a bow even with bow having more generous restrictions due to difficulty of weapon. We just continue to put blame on the user group rather then the whole picture. Everyone is part of the puzzle, including habitat, weather, predators, etc. I feel the department goes all in to the most extreme for good or bad for the situation.

Also what I'm saying here isn't based off the couple post on this thread
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: ghosthunter on February 12, 2020, 11:14:24 AM
I said this on another thread, regardless of the causes there should be no cow tags sold for anything.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:16:20 AM
Example. Take away cow harvest now not 1 archery hunter shot an elk. So in future when antlerless is no longer aloud I really don't want to hear anyone to put blame toward low elk numbers on bow hunters. Get ready modern it's about to get more crowded during your season.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:25:18 AM
Yet the higher weapon still gets a cow tag opportunity. Herds are in bad shape. Then why are they even giving any modern tags for cow.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 11:29:22 AM
Little naches 5 cows? Is there a late archery elk there? Early is bull permit only? Correct
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:33:48 AM
The 2018 season success is posted and the proposed regs for this season is the next post. Both are taken from the department website.

Yes as of last year there was still a late season spike or antlerless for little natches.

Also appears they will continue antlerless hunts for archery at this time.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 11:42:16 AM
I personally haven't seen anything wrong with the Yakima heard. I do see less people in the area's that hold elk though. I'm not complaining, just an observation. Maybe the stats they use to assume heard health are lacking important details.  :dunno:
  :yeah: yakima herds are down a bit from HISTORIC ALL TIME HIGHS of a few years ago but still a VERY healthy and robust population.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2020, 11:44:32 AM
I am ready for WY
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 11:47:28 AM
I think some of this is just human nature at work also. We tend to like to look for excuses for failure. "It can't be that I didn't hunt smart or hard enough! Its low numbers and dang wdfw and predators and and and and." 

I've said it countless times, these permit cut backs have been a knee jerk reaction by wdfw. This year will be no different. They will fly the sage country (winter range) looking to count elk but a good number of elk never came down and the ones that did have already started back up to their transitional zones aka timber. They will have low counts and in turn low permit numbers.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:50:48 AM
Karl your posts appear to be spot on as usual. :hello:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 11:53:02 AM
Just a question
What percentage do you think donít come down for free food? How much snow does it take for them all to come down. If they all even do?
Just trying to learn
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: grundy53 on February 12, 2020, 12:45:58 PM
Yet the higher weapon still gets a cow tag opportunity. Herds are in bad shape. Then why are they even giving any modern tags for cow.
If a herd is having trouble there shouldn't be any cow permits for rifle season.

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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: WSU on February 12, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
If those harvest stats a reflective the total archery harvest, it sure appears that archers killing cows is irrelevant to the population numbers.  Five cows cannot make any noticeable difference.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 01:27:49 PM
The depredation thing comes up often enough that I actually emailed the WDFW to ask about them.

Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.

In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk.  This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.

In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk.    237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd.  Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)

So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.

53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits".  That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".

I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds.  I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit.  Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 01:53:33 PM
The depredation thing comes up often enough that I actually emailed the WDFW to ask about them.

Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.

In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk.  This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.

In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk.    237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd.  Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)

So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.

53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits".  That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".

I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds.  I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit.  Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
those are some janky numbers. I know of more than 7 off of just one ranch  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2020, 01:59:28 PM
Ask them for 2016/17 numbers  :twocents:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 02:55:58 PM
The depredation thing comes up often enough that I actually emailed the WDFW to ask about them.

Here are the numbers from 2018 for all of eastern washington and then specifically for the 300 GMUS, yakama and colockum.

In 2018, the Department issued 984 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in eastern Washington to address elk damage complaints with a reported harvest of 81 elk.  This is considered a minimum because of landowners that fail to report.

In 2018, the Department issued 656 permits (DPPs and Kill Permits combined) to landowners in 300 series GMUs with a reported harvest of 60 elk.    237 of the 656 permits were issued in GMU 372, which is associated with the Rattlesnake Hills sub-herd.  Also, 53 of the 60 elk harvested in the region 3 GMU's were reported as harvested in this GMU (372)

So almost 1,000 permits issued to make people feel better and only 81 elk taken with those permits across all of eastern Washington.

53 elk taken out of GMU 372 using "kill permits".  That means only 7 elk were taken in the yakama and colockum units with "kill permits".

I am not sure that is a significant amount of elk being taken out of those herds.  I do think that 53 in one GMU seems like alot but have never been to that unit.  Maybe there are a ton of elk there.
those are some janky numbers. I know of more than 7 off of just one ranch  :chuckle:
Were they actually depredation tags or were they masterhunter tags and special permits?

I questioned the high number of permits compared to actual reported harvest and was told that they follow on permits issued to make sure they get accurate counts of animals harvested.  Kill permits are not included in harvest data provided to the public because it would make an area look like a higher success rate when those permits aren't available to joe blow hunter.

Harvest numbers from kill permits are used when setting the next years seasons however.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: ThurstonCokid on February 12, 2020, 03:04:52 PM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.

This. Iíve herd of orchards taking 30 cows a year..


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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: vandeman17 on February 12, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
not the yak or colockum herd but I know of plenty of elk that get taken on damage permits each year around malaga
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: ThurstonCokid on February 12, 2020, 04:53:50 PM
Hopefully everything stays the same.. one change will lead to hunters switching units and west vs East and itíll get worse


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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on February 12, 2020, 06:05:04 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2020, 08:12:18 PM
I am fine with archery cows by permit only for the last year of this cycle. I think you will see the population boom in the next year. Then open it back up if numbers are good but donít increase permits by a ton and hammer the numbers down again.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on February 12, 2020, 08:41:04 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: syoungs on February 12, 2020, 09:02:50 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.

I was under the impression that they tried to balance bull vs cow by how many would actually need to be bred. Ie; wouldn't need 100 bulls to serive 125 cows.
Maybe that's wrong? I truly dont know, and I feel like I should.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Matth on February 13, 2020, 08:03:15 AM
25 Bulls per 100 cows would be a very good number. I also would be all for no cow harvest for as long as it took to rebound, across all user groups.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2020, 08:21:17 AM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
this isn't quit how the science works. If you have 50 cows and 20 bulls and they are all successful you would get 50 calves. If you had 100 cows and 20 bulls you are gonna get 100 calves. Bulls can't have babies. More cow tags are issued to DECREASE a population not bull tags.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: 7mmfan on February 13, 2020, 08:37:22 AM
I don't think cows going un-bred is the problem. If there isn't a mature herd bull around to do the deed, any rag horn will happily fill the gap.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Cheif on February 13, 2020, 09:43:12 AM
Been a long time coming
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 13, 2020, 11:36:21 AM
With so many elephants in the room...how long until we have elephant permits??

Just sayin.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: grundy53 on February 13, 2020, 02:05:36 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
this isn't quit how the science works. If you have 50 cows and 20 bulls and they are all successful you would get 50 calves. If you had 100 cows and 20 bulls you are gonna get 100 calves. Bulls can't have babies. More cow tags are issued to DECREASE a population not bull tags.
Spot on

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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: gotcha on February 13, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
It's sad its come to this. Hunters arguing with hunters. If our state didn't miss use our resources we all would not be having this conversation. Until we get people in the right position who support what is right for us hunters and the animals we all are going to loose.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 13, 2020, 04:17:22 PM
Archery success or lack of has very little affect on herd health and size. The thing the ability to pursue cows does is splits the hunter's up fairly equally east/ west. Take away the cow option and you probably see 50-60 percent of archery guys switch to west side ..so say go bye to the 3 point minimum after a couple of years.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: kselkhunter on February 13, 2020, 04:26:41 PM
For those complaining about Washington cow elk tags....Oregon DFW would like you to "here, hold my beer we can top that" ....

OTC any legal weapon cow tags August through March.

I love elk hunting Oregon but wow it's going to be a massacre this year.  I know lots of elk-damage tags used to get issued, and if you went through an outfitter you could even exchange your unused fall bull tag for an elk-damage cow tag in January on ranch land for a small fee.   Now it's just OTC August through March for cows in those units.   The elk herd I like to hunt in the mountains in September migrates into that zone in the winter.   Very frustrating.



Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Special T on February 13, 2020, 05:09:25 PM
Have you guys been sharing your thoughts and research or observations with your Sportsmen organization? If your organization does not have some one that dives into that arena have you volunteered?

If you are concerned about your future hunting opportunities  get involved.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Rainier10 on February 20, 2020, 06:25:13 PM
Last year they tried to make colockum permit for cow. People went nuts and they took away the cow permits, gave a few more to rifle and muzzy guys and went OTC archery cow. This year they pulled the OTC plug and filled it with zero archery cow tags.

I sent in my comments and asked that they give archery guys the option for permit cow.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Special T on February 20, 2020, 11:27:49 PM
Last year they tried to make colockum permit for cow. People went nuts and they took away the cow permits, gave a few more to rifle and muzzy guys and went OTC archery cow. This year they pulled the OTC plug and filled it with zero archery cow tags.

I sent in my comments and asked that they give archery guys the option for permit cow.
I belive that was 2 years ago the 2018 season.

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Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Onewhohikes on February 21, 2020, 05:39:37 AM
Hopefully no cow tags this year
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: KopperBuck on February 21, 2020, 10:35:43 AM
For those complaining about Washington cow elk tags....Oregon DFW would like you to "here, hold my beer we can top that" ....

OTC any legal weapon cow tags August through March.

I love elk hunting Oregon but wow it's going to be a massacre this year.  I know lots of elk-damage tags used to get issued, and if you went through an outfitter you could even exchange your unused fall bull tag for an elk-damage cow tag in January on ranch land for a small fee.   Now it's just OTC August through March for cows in those units.   The elk herd I like to hunt in the mountains in September migrates into that zone in the winter.   Very frustrating.

I don't think that it's going to be a massacre. I think you're going to have a lot of people that buy those tags and find out they don't have a place to hunt. Sure, there's some public land mixed in there, but not much. And not all those tags go till March, just where they really want them moved out. Some areas are very low density. For those, like myself, that utilize damage tags this is so much easier. Especially in areas with lots of broken up parcels.

Specifically in my area, ODFW cut the tag date because of the migration. I actually applaud ODFW on this move.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 07:58:40 AM
Looking at presentation summary notes for upcoming season setting meeting next week and anterless is off the table for both early and late archery will be limited cow permits a available other weapon choices took a big hit in cow tags as well
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Jhughes32 on April 05, 2020, 08:05:24 AM
Where did you find the notes
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 08:07:36 AM
Wdfw website under commission thereís a tab for Up coming meeting agendas
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Bango skank on April 05, 2020, 08:13:02 AM
Where did you find the notes

https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings/2020/april-9-10-meeting-agenda
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 05, 2020, 08:35:41 AM
Whats funny, well not really, is the that they want to take away general cow tags but issue a bunch of cow tags via permit only. If you look at the number of cow tags they want to offer via permit its still more than the number of cows harvested in any given year.

I also have a hard time with the statement that they could not do 2020 population surveys because of the mild winter and lack of elk in normal wintering areas. So they just automatically assume the population is down. Now that's science for ya.  :bash:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: B4noon on April 05, 2020, 09:12:40 AM
No time for science or surveys if you follow the biweekly wildlife reports in the wdfw Website the same bios responsible for big game were busy catching and marking bumble bees for a national registry and hair trapping gray squirrels
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 09:45:54 AM
What a chit show, this kind of management+ no control of native harvest= disaster! 
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: hughjorgan on April 05, 2020, 10:14:25 AM
I bet interest in archery and tags sold drops significantly this fall...
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Rainier10 on April 05, 2020, 10:24:18 AM
Wow, so there was no early cow season or cow tags just a late general cow season. They cancelled all general cow and made it all permit only, early and late.

I am glad to see that they reduced all user groups.

I feel like looking at these proposal it might not be so bad if they just cancel the season. Numbers should be way up next year.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 11:09:15 AM
Closing the season would be a bandaid on an open gun shot wound to the stomach.  Stopping non tribal hunters fixes nothing, gives the tribes the play ground to themselves, and laughing all the way to the meat locker.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on April 05, 2020, 11:19:58 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: jstone on April 05, 2020, 11:21:16 AM
These issues donít need to be on the shoulder of us hunters only.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 11:28:32 AM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw.  One way seems very radical but itís a way, open all Yakima gmuís up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, youíd think the tribes would have to wake up!
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: hunter399 on April 05, 2020, 11:41:42 AM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw.  One way seems very radical but itís a way, open all Yakima gmuís up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, youíd think the tribes would have to wake up!
Starve them out .You guys act like your fighting world war 1 here.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Archry on April 05, 2020, 11:48:46 AM
They took away elk tags for youth, disabled,  and 65+? My 9yr old son just passed hunters ed. Ouch
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw.  One way seems very radical but itís a way, open all Yakima gmuís up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, youíd think the tribes would have to wake up!

Exactly. What's the point of having two separate seasons and regulations for two different groups of people in the same area? If the WDFW would just adopt the Yakama's seasons and limits (no limits) for us, the tribe would be forced to begin talking and cooperating with the state to set reasonable regulations that would work better for all of us.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: hunter399 on April 05, 2020, 11:53:08 AM
Who cares about them cow elk .You guys can go shoot a bull. It will be just fine.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Bango skank on April 05, 2020, 12:01:13 PM
I believe bobcat and I said this before, we have to figure out a way to get the natives to manage and work w Wdfw.  One way seems very radical but itís a way, open all Yakima gmuís up for any weapon, any sex deer and elk! Sounds nuts but if we kill off everything, youíd think the tribes would have to wake up!

Exactly. What's the point of having two separate seasons and regulations for two different groups of people in the same area? If the WDFW would just adopt the Yakama's seasons and limits (no limits) for us, the tribe would be forced to begin talking and cooperating with the state to set reasonable regulations that would work better for all of us.

The samson option.  I like it.   :tup:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: str8meat on April 05, 2020, 08:41:32 PM
They may have just realized how they have been overselling the herds for years. Draw system only no draw no hunt buy a beef.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Pretty soon instead of the east siders complaining about the west siders, it will be reversed!  We can hunt 3 point or better, OTC in lots of units.  I can see it now! 
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: RobinHoodlum on April 07, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
The commission decision on final regs isn't until Friday, but I'm afraid we are seeing the die being cast for ALL future antlerless harvest becoming draw only.

If you look at the graphs on page 8 & 12 of Brock's presentation, he's projecting even limited cow harvest keeping these 2 populations under objective over the next few years (is it a coincidence his graph spans next 3-year package?). Given the base population sizes, there's something not right about this and I'd be interested to know what assumptions were used. Regardless, expect draw only for the next 3 years as well.

Then, think to yourself, will they actually return to OTC tags after that or just keep enjoying the extra revenue coming from antlerless draw fees? Further, staying with draw only allows game managers (and others) to feel like populations are being managed with more "precision". Which is farce when there are other unknown/unanticipated significant mortality sources (tribal, damage, predators).

I generally try to be optimistic, but we dont seem to be living in an era of liberalizing harvest opportunity. So, archers better be prepared to rally or kiss OTC cow tags goodbye for good.

Some of these have already been pointed out, but a few things that really suck about this:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 07, 2020, 03:33:27 PM
Friday is just a rubber stamping.  What you see is what we are going to get.  This is state is something else. 
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: gasman on April 07, 2020, 05:35:18 PM
Bad Ju-ju here with permits......

Once they go to permits for AR Henry, it will never go back....... Cam6you say, "Money Grab"......
I knew you could......

This is what they did to us with the spike only rule, then bull permits, then increase bull permits. It was suppose to go back when herd made it's rebound, but never did be ausenthey would lose the $$$$$$$
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: Oh Mah on April 07, 2020, 08:53:29 PM
So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: ribka on April 07, 2020, 09:41:00 PM
No mention of the elephant in there room and its impact on elk: tribal hunting


So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: trophyhunt on April 07, 2020, 09:53:31 PM
No mention of the elephant in there room and its impact on elk: tribal hunting


So... here is my thought on this. I agree with making it a draw for 3-5 years for archery to hunt cow elk in those units. I feel like the modern antler-less permits numbers should be lowered as well. That being said.. I also feel that the bull tags need to be lowered. Reason I'm saying this.. a cow elk gives birth to 1-2 calves a year, mainly 1. A mature bull elk can service/breed 20-40 cow elk. So actually having more mature/breeding age bulls is going to help a lot. I'm not saying, hey lets just kill spikes and cow elk.. but I'm saying that the math shows that a single bull can create more life in a single breeding season than a single cow by a LARGE margin. I hate to bring this other subject up now too... but some serious predator control in those units would be VERY helpful for the deer and the elk. I mean we have more predators in the woods now than we have in a LONG time and its definitely part of the negative impact that we see on the herds. IMO those units need more people hunting bears and cougars. Not to get this argument going either.. but we need to push to open hunting of the wolves in some way, shape, or form.
SERIOUS QUESTION: We have all been talking about the predators and how they are destroying our game herds,Myself included.How many other states have the wintering grounds locked up so hunters can't hunt the predators when and where the herds need us the most?Every year we all see """winter kills"" in the wintering fields where not much of a winter even existed.
:yeah: the state wonít even acknowledge the room, much less the animal in it!
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: buglebrush on April 07, 2020, 10:43:03 PM
Or the big elephant in the room.......depredation permits. I'd be willing to bet more antlerless elk are killed on these than all otc and permit harvests combined....across all weapons.

100% agree.  And the real answer is to kill more predators.  I'm tired of the knee jerk reaction to always be to limit opportunity.   :bash:
Title: Re: Who is ready to draw cow permits for archery
Post by: SuperX on April 08, 2020, 07:33:59 AM
Make it draw forever, just remove the 'spike only' part and put 3pt or better.

Take those quality hunts and dumpster them, they are a scam.