Dog Feed

[JJD]

I noted that on the "waterfowl" board there was a fair amount of interest in a thread about what guys were feeding their dogs
The comments were varied and seemed to have a number of folks following it.

Thought I would post up a discussion that myself and a few others had with a DVM who was an avid waterfowl hunter himself  These are his opinions and I find them of value, maybe you will too.  Keep in mind this discussion took place in 1999, but the basic premiss still applies today.


Beginning;
Let's try to begin this discussion with some points that we can all agree on. (hopefully)

1.  Dogs which are required to perform are atheletes.

2.  Performing athletic feats requires more energy than sitting on the couch begging for potato chips.

3.  In addition to being physical atheletes, our dogs are mental atheletes as well.  (Hand signals, marking, blind retrieves, honoring, etc the list goes on)

4.  Our dogs undergo huge amounts of stress that the average everday porch sitter wouldn't even dream of.

5.  It would be almost unheard of for an olympic athelete to be successful if he ate lunch everyday at Mc Donalds, yet some of us expect our dogs to do just that. 



We demand that our dogs perform physical and mental feats that  stretch them to their limits, but do we give them a proper foundation to achieve our goals.  Notice I did not say their goals, I said ours.  Most retreivers love to please, they will do almost anything for their owners or handlers or will die trying.  If we are going to set high goals then lets give them  the support they need to achieve them. 




What is a Premium quality diet?



This is an important question.  How many of you knew that there is no set standard in the dog food industry to determine  this.  Sure there is a minimum set of requirements but there is no standard which differentiates avg. dog food from "Premium Quality" dog food.  I find this fascinating.  You must all realize that the dog food business is about marketing.  Why do you think that food companies make several different flavors of the same diet?  It is because they want you to buy 2 or 3 bags instead of one so you can feed your dog a variety.  What a crock!!!  The companies are trying to sell more food to you based on your perception of your dog's dietary needs.  How many of you eat the same diet every day?  The answer is none.  So, I guess old Fido needs a variety too.  This is not true.  Your dog will perform better if you feed him the same diet everyday, in fact the digestive system performs optimally under these conditions.  Part of the digestive system is made up of thousands of microorganisms which help breakdown the food for digestive purposes in addition to the digestive enzymes your dog produces.  It stands to reason that if this system is constantly having to adapt to different diets then it will not perform as optimally as it would if it were doing the same thing every time.  FIND THE RIGHT DIET FOR YOUR DOG AND FEED IT THE SAME THING EVERYDAY.  There are distinct phases which your dogs go through which require a change and we will discuss them later.  In addition feed it the same amount every day once it achieves proper condition and feed it at the same time every day.  If you have an automatic feeder then I suggest that you melt it down and use it for decoy weights because it will kill your dog eventually or at least shorten its life.  How many of you are in good physical condition and eat all day long depending on when you feel like it.  Also how many of you would like to eat food that stays out on the counter for several days subject to mold, moisture and humidity. 
I didn't think so.



For the sake of this discussion I am going to define what I consider to be a premium quality diet.



1.  THE DIET SHOULD BE CONSISTENT IN REGARDS TO ITS MAKEUP.  In other words the ingredients should not change unless new research indicates that a change is necessary.  Most commercial dog food companies make their diet using a least cost formulation (LCF).  They make up a basic ration that will meet the minimum requirement established by the NRC (National Research Council) then they add fillers to make up the bulk of the diet.  These fillers are subject to change depending upon their cost.  If the price of corn goes up they reduce the amt. of corn and use more soybeans.  A premium quality diet should not be made up using an LCF, this is why on the surface they appear to be more expensive than commercially available diets.   If your dog food company uses an LCF when they make up your diet then in my opinion it is not a Premium Quality diet.



2.  THE DIGESTIBILITY OF THE DIET SHOULD BE ABOVE 60 TO 65%.

Diets which have lower digestibilities have several disadvantages.  First your dog has to eat more to get the same amt of nutritional value as it would from a premium quality diet.  Second if it eats more then well it defecates more.  You have more mess to clean up and that cheap diet ain’t so cheap when you have to feed as much.  Third, if it has to eat more then the digestive system has to work harder.



3.  THE PRIMARY INGREDIENT OF THE DIET SHOULD BE MEAT.  Dogs are carnivores. 



4.   THE DIET HAS BEEN TEST FED ACCORDING TO THE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN FEED CONTROL OFFICIALS (AAFCO).



5.   THE DIET IS 100% SATISFACTION GUARANTEED.

The manufacturer should be willing to refund your money if you are unsatisfied with their product for any reason.



6.  THE DIET IS BASED ON SCIENCE AND IS BACKED BY RESEARCH.  IT SHOULD BE RECOMMENDED BY ANIMAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS.  I am  not talking about the ones that work for the company either.  If you ask your vet   Hey doc, what about this diet and he or she replies I have never heard of it then that should tell you something.  Please realize that availabilty of diets can be regional in nature and you should consult with vets in your area.



7.  THE DIET SHOULD BE AVAILABLE IN FORMS TO SUPPORT ALL LIFE STAGES. 

In my opinion there are four basic groups Growth, Adult, Performance and Senior.  If your diet says it supports all life stages then in my opinion it is not a premium quality diet.



8.  THE DIET SHOULD NOT CONTAIN HIGH AMOUNTS OF SALT OR FAT.

These two ingredients are what makes dog food palatable (taste good).  That doesn't mean it is good for them. 



   Also as I have stated previously, "if it aint broke don't fix it"  If you are satisfied with your dogs performance and his condition then keep feeding him the diet you are currently using.  But, if you are tired of cleaning up crap all the time and those periodic (and expensive) trips to the vet because your dog is sick, then consider changing to a premium quality diet.



There are 3 diets on the market that I currently consider to be premium quality diets  SCIENCE DIET, PURINA PRO PLAN, @ IAAMS (EUKANUBA).  Also the Purina O.N.E. is a premium quality diet in my opinion.  (again this was 1999)



Food for thought guys,  I have been a practicing veterinarian for almost 12 1/2 years now and I have never had to treat one of my own animals for a bacterial or viral disease.  I have been raising and training labs for almost 8 years and prior to that my wife and I raised English Bulldogs and at one time had 13 of them in my house.  Remember that I am exposed to these diseases on a regular daily basis and often I am sure bring them home with me on my shoes or clothes etc. but none of my animals has ever been sick due to one of them.  Coincidence,  I think not.  You be the judge.
End:

I will post more of this discussion if there is interest.
Wind at your back . . .

[newbie76]

After hearing about the dogs dying with Beneful I looked into dog foods myself. I looked at dogfoodadvisor.com and I was actually surprised that the dog foods that Vets usually recommend are not rated as high as others. We feed our dogs the Kirkland Signature brand because from the research I did it was pretty dang good and the convenience of buying it when we're doing our shopping can't be beat!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Happy Gilmore]

After hearing about the dogs dying with Beneful I looked into dog foods myself. I looked at dogfoodadvisor.com and I was actually surprised that the dog foods that Vets usually recommend are not rated as high as others. We feed our dogs the Kirkland Signature brand because from the research I did it was pretty dang good and the convenience of buying it when we're doing our shopping can't be beat!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I feed Natures Domain(Costco) as well and have since they came out with it. It is Taste of the Wild(TOTW). TOTW and ND are the same food. The printed protein/fat % content are within the allowable range for packaging.(If I remember right, USDA says +/- 5% or something like that for "actual content")

FYI- Kirkland brands are made by Diamond Foods. They were responsible for killing many pets a couple years back. The food here on the West Coast is produced at a different facility. Thankfully, our food here has never been recalled. Not the case with the East Coast. Folks out there have a serious problem feeding Diamond Brands.

Also, "most" of the dog food rating webpages are developed and maintained by a particular dog food manufacturer. It's not hard to figure out when you see the same brand listed as the most, "premium" product in every catagory.

[Stilly bay]

I don't know how valuable any information on dog food and diet can be if its from 1999. dog food and dog diet science has change dramatically over the last 14 years or so.
I agree about the marketing standpoint, the biggest break through seems to involve the owners rather than the dog. pet food companies found out that dog owners will actually pay upwards of $50 for a 30lb bag. so it seems many brands have jumped on that band wagon.

I also think that dog should have a good amount of plant matter in their diet because when ever an herbivore is consumed by a carnivore the first thing that is eaten is its stomach contents which contain lots of plant material at various stages of digestion. in wolf packs this is consumed first by the strongest members of the pack first, and then the meatier parts are consumed by lesser members.
another thing to consider is that dogs need meat, but what kind of meat? organ meats are the most valuable and vitamin rich, but is that whats going into our dog food? doubtful.

I am dubious of Purina pro plans value. its highly marketed and sponsored in field trials. kennel owners and trainers prefer it because every other 30/20 dog food gives their dogs (and their clients dogs) the runs, so with PPP they don't have to spend the day hosing down their kennels. but besides tiny dumps I just don't see the value in it. I tried it on my pack for a year and most of them lost weight despite getting four cups a day and all their coats went to hell... but they did have tiny craps which didn't make up for PPP's other shortcomings.
purina sells alot of dog food but they have also been around for ever and have huge marketing campaign. its like saying bows and arrows have killed more deer than rifles just by the sheer fact bows have been around longer, but that doesn't make them the best tool for the job.

I don't think there is a right answer in dog food, since every breed is different, every owner and training program is different, and even the individual dog has different needs

After hearing about the dogs dying with Beneful I looked into dog foods myself. I looked at dogfoodadvisor.com and I was actually surprised that the dog foods that Vets usually recommend are not rated as high as others. We feed our dogs the Kirkland Signature brand because from the research I did it was pretty dang good and the convenience of buying it when we're doing our shopping can't be beat!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I feed Natures Domain(Costco) as well and have since they came out with it. It is Taste of the Wild(TOTW). TOTW and ND are the same food. The printed protein/fat % content are within the allowable range for packaging.(If I remember right, USDA says +/- 5% or something like that for "actual content")

FYI- Kirkland brands are made by Diamond Foods. They were responsible for killing many pets a couple years back. The food here on the West Coast is produced at a different facility. Thankfully, our food here has never been recalled. Not the case with the East Coast. Folks out there have a serious problem feeding Diamond Brands.

Also, "most" of the dog food rating webpages are developed and maintained by a particular dog food manufacturer. It's not hard to figure out when you see the same brand listed as the most, "premium" product in every catagory.

happy is spot on.
 but I think dog food analysis websites do hold some value if you look at them objectively. they do not put up false information about content and they do give you a way to compare foods and analyze the ingredients for yourself so you can make your own informed decisions on what to feed your dog

[Bluemoon]

Science Diet (Hills) doesn't give a rats about our Sporting Dogs.  I use to be very loyal to them way before Betty White turned it into a yuppie food.  In 1999 and 2000, I won 2000 pounds of Purina of my choice.  I went to Hills and offered to donate it too the Dog shelter of their choice if they would work with me on just 25% of what I won.  They flat out told me they didn't care and their market was through vets.
I have had nothing good to say about them since.

[Stilly bay]

isn't science diet the one that used rendered meat from dogs and cats that were euthanized in shelters?... or was that just an urban legend?

[lokidog]

"I also think that dog should have a good amount of plant matter in their diet because when ever an herbivore is consumed by a carnivore the first thing that is eaten is its stomach contents which contain lots of plant material at various stages of digestion."

Really, coons won't touch it, and they eat plant ,material regularly.  We don't have coyotes but the paunch is always still there when everything else is gone here on the island.   

I'd like to find a good food and will keep an eye on this.

[Stilly bay]

"I also think that dog should have a good amount of plant matter in their diet because when ever an herbivore is consumed by a carnivore the first thing that is eaten is its stomach contents which contain lots of plant material at various stages of digestion."

Really, coons won't touch it, and they eat plant ,material regularly.  We don't have coyotes but the paunch is always still there when everything else is gone here on the island.   

I'd like to find a good food and will keep an eye on this.

coyotes and coons are much more omnivorous than wolves, maybe they get that part of their diet else where.

I had a wolf hybrid -that was more wolf than dog- and she would get a freshly killed rabbit every now and then for a treat. she would eat the whole thing but  first thing to get pulled out and eaten were the guts. I got her from a fellow who used to work up in AK as a  wolf biologist and he told me about the wolves enjoying the stomach/ intestinal  contents first since that part was easiest to get into, easiest to digest, and had the most value. it made a lot sense to me at the time.
for many carnivores the first choice cut isn't the meat we value, its the organs. I have lost count of how many times I have seen hawks just eat the brains or guts from a kill. all animals need plant life in one way or another for vitamins and nutrients, some animals just get it already processed.

[lokidog]

I get the eating of the organs, liver, kidney, heart, lungs since they are higher in nutrients, but still wonder about the stomach contents.

[Happy Gilmore]

Do any of you guys actually own a hunting dog that doesnt just love the most rotten nasty "anything" they find?

[JJD]

Do any of you guys actually own a hunting dog that doesnt just love the most rotten nasty "anything" they find?

Thats a fact, I have yet to own a retriever that was picky about what it ate. 
I still remain picky about what I feed them.

[JJD]

I don't know how valuable any information on dog food and diet can be if its from 1999. dog food and dog diet science has change dramatically over the last 14 years or so.
I agree about the marketing standpoint, the biggest break through seems to involve the owners rather than the dog. pet food companies found out that dog owners will actually pay upwards of $50 for a 30lb bag. so it seems many brands have jumped on that band wagon.

I also think that dog should have a good amount of plant matter in their diet because when ever an herbivore is consumed by a carnivore the first thing that is eaten is its stomach contents which contain lots of plant material at various stages of digestion. in wolf packs this is consumed first by the strongest members of the pack first, and then the meatier parts are consumed by lesser members.
another thing to consider is that dogs need meat, but what kind of meat? organ meats are the most valuable and vitamin rich, but is that whats going into our dog food? doubtful.

I am dubious of Purina pro plans value. its highly marketed and sponsored in field trials. kennel owners and trainers prefer it because every other 30/20 dog food gives their dogs (and their clients dogs) the runs, so with PPP they don't have to spend the day hosing down their kennels. but besides tiny dumps I just don't see the value in it. I tried it on my pack for a year and most of them lost weight despite getting four cups a day and all their coats went to hell... but they did have tiny craps which didn't make up for PPP's other shortcomings.
purina sells alot of dog food but they have also been around for ever and have huge marketing campaign. its like saying bows and arrows have killed more deer than rifles just by the sheer fact bows have been around longer, but that doesn't make them the best tool for the job.

I don't think there is a right answer in dog food, since every breed is different, every owner and training program is different, and even the individual dog has different needs

After hearing about the dogs dying with Beneful I looked into dog foods myself. I looked at dogfoodadvisor.com and I was actually surprised that the dog foods that Vets usually recommend are not rated as high as others. We feed our dogs the Kirkland Signature brand because from the research I did it was pretty dang good and the convenience of buying it when we're doing our shopping can't be beat!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I feed Natures Domain(Costco) as well and have since they came out with it. It is Taste of the Wild(TOTW). TOTW and ND are the same food. The printed protein/fat % content are within the allowable range for packaging.(If I remember right, USDA says +/- 5% or something like that for "actual content")

FYI- Kirkland brands are made by Diamond Foods. They were responsible for killing many pets a couple years back. The food here on the West Coast is produced at a different facility. Thankfully, our food here has never been recalled. Not the case with the East Coast. Folks out there have a serious problem feeding Diamond Brands.

Also, "most" of the dog food rating webpages are developed and maintained by a particular dog food manufacturer. It's not hard to figure out when you see the same brand listed as the most, "premium" product in every catagory.

happy is spot on.
 but I think dog food analysis websites do hold some value if you look at them objectively. they do not put up false information about content and they do give you a way to compare foods and analyze the ingredients for yourself so you can make your own informed decisions on what to feed your dog

I still believe that 90% of what the DVM wrote is as pertinent today as it was 14 yrs ago.
Proplan is still a premium feed (read the label), who or what they sponsor or how they choose to advertise does not change that and neither does the price.  Is it a good value?  That’s a judgment call.  I am currently looking for a premium feed that is a better value and has a consistent supplier in my area.
I don’t believe very many feed companies are very scrupulous, they are not charitable organizations. They are in business to make a profit and bar none, will charge what ever they can get.  I also believe that premium diets are a small nitch in most feed compaies feed lines.  As I would surprised if even 1% of all dogs in the US and Canada are working dogs.

[JJD]

This discussion was again, was in 1999, but I believe this DVM's views are pertinent today.


Lets take a break for a minute and consider why nutrition is so important.  I hope everyone agrees that our retreivers are extraordinary atheletes.  While I marvel at what they can do I  can also appreciate the amount of stress that these athletic feats place on them.  Stress is immunosuppressive.  What this means is that stress causes our dogs immune systems to falter making them more susceptible to illness.  Stress comes in many different forms also   weather (environmental temperature), atheletic performance, training, pregnancy, growth, and disease.  When these factors begin to take their toll on your dog, if it is in optimal condition it will be better able to fight off disease and injury.  One of the ways we can help to alleviate stress on our dogs is to feed them properly.  A good diet can manifest itself in several ways.  1.  It allows your dog to attain maximum physical condition.  2.  It keeps your dogs digestive system in top condition, this is just as important as his physical condition.  3.  It ensures that your dog has enough energy to meet the metabolic demands that is placed on its body without having to canabolize its own energy  reserves. 



It has been scientifically proven that we can actually treat some diseases just by adjusting a dog's diet.  If you accept this then you must be able to recognize how important your dog's diet is to its overall health condition.



Now, did you know that in order for diets to get approval to be marketed for sale, they only have to meet a minimum set of requirements.   There is no maximum levels established.  We know through extensive research that in some cases of nutrients that too much is just as bad or worse as too little.

The proper balance of nutrients is very important.  Now I am not a nutritionist and I am not going to pretend to be one either.  I tend to try to use common sense when making my decisions, I would recommend that you compare the label on the food you are using to the label of one of the diets I recommend, if the labels are comparable then you may have found a pretty good diet.  There are other factors involved but this will give you a rough idea of where your food stands in comparison to the industry leaders.  I also challenge you to try one of the diets I recommended.  You have nothing to lose as they are all backed by a 100% guarantee.  If you decide the diet makes no difference follow the instructions on the back of the bag and the company will refund your money in full and you get to keep the food.  For retrievers during hunting season or that are in training or being worked 4 5 times a week I recommend feeding the performance diets.  In the off season for dogs between 1   7 yrs I recommend the adult formulas.  For puppies up to 1 yr of age and pregnant bitches I recommend the growth formulas.  For dogs older than seven years I recommend the senior formulas when the dogs are not being worked.  I would recommend that you try the different flavors only until you find the one that your dog prefers and then stick to that flavor.  I personally feed the chicken and rice formula and have had excellent results. 



I used to feed my dogs just the adult formula when they were between 1 and 7 yrs of age, then one of my retriever buddies asked if I sold the performance diet.  I told him I didn't have any but I could sure get it for him if he wanted it.  I did and placed an order, well about a month later he moved and I was stuck with this diet in inventory.  I decided to feed it to my dogs.  Man oh man did it ever make a difference.  My dog has always had exceptional drive and has never been lazy.  She is an intact 7 1/2 yr old female chocolate lab with an HR title, she has had 4 litters with an average of 8 pups per litter.  Now I am not writing this to brag, just to provide you with a reference point for comparing the diet.



I feel strongly that nutrition is often overlooked by most owners.  I know that dogs fed properly live longer, perform better, have less illnesses, are in overall better health and are less expensive to maintain.



I am sure there will be more discussion on this subject. asked me to state my position on diet related to Hip  Dysplasia and the issue of "treats" will be forthcoming.

[lokidog]

Do any of you guys actually own a hunting dog that doesnt just love the most rotten nasty "anything" they find?

Mine haven't figured out yet that those "nutrients" can't absorb through their fur or skin though.....      

Thanks for posting JJD

[Stilly bay]

I don't know how valuable any information on dog food and diet can be if its from 1999. dog food and dog diet science has change dramatically over the last 14 years or so.
I agree about the marketing standpoint, the biggest break through seems to involve the owners rather than the dog. pet food companies found out that dog owners will actually pay upwards of $50 for a 30lb bag. so it seems many brands have jumped on that band wagon.

I also think that dog should have a good amount of plant matter in their diet because when ever an herbivore is consumed by a carnivore the first thing that is eaten is its stomach contents which contain lots of plant material at various stages of digestion. in wolf packs this is consumed first by the strongest members of the pack first, and then the meatier parts are consumed by lesser members.
another thing to consider is that dogs need meat, but what kind of meat? organ meats are the most valuable and vitamin rich, but is that whats going into our dog food? doubtful.

I am dubious of Purina pro plans value. its highly marketed and sponsored in field trials. kennel owners and trainers prefer it because every other 30/20 dog food gives their dogs (and their clients dogs) the runs, so with PPP they don't have to spend the day hosing down their kennels. but besides tiny dumps I just don't see the value in it. I tried it on my pack for a year and most of them lost weight despite getting four cups a day and all their coats went to hell... but they did have tiny craps which didn't make up for PPP's other shortcomings.
purina sells alot of dog food but they have also been around for ever and have huge marketing campaign. its like saying bows and arrows have killed more deer than rifles just by the sheer fact bows have been around longer, but that doesn't make them the best tool for the job.

I don't think there is a right answer in dog food, since every breed is different, every owner and training program is different, and even the individual dog has different needs

After hearing about the dogs dying with Beneful I looked into dog foods myself. I looked at dogfoodadvisor.com and I was actually surprised that the dog foods that Vets usually recommend are not rated as high as others. We feed our dogs the Kirkland Signature brand because from the research I did it was pretty dang good and the convenience of buying it when we're doing our shopping can't be beat!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I feed Natures Domain(Costco) as well and have since they came out with it. It is Taste of the Wild(TOTW). TOTW and ND are the same food. The printed protein/fat % content are within the allowable range for packaging.(If I remember right, USDA says +/- 5% or something like that for "actual content")

FYI- Kirkland brands are made by Diamond Foods. They were responsible for killing many pets a couple years back. The food here on the West Coast is produced at a different facility. Thankfully, our food here has never been recalled. Not the case with the East Coast. Folks out there have a serious problem feeding Diamond Brands.

Also, "most" of the dog food rating webpages are developed and maintained by a particular dog food manufacturer. It's not hard to figure out when you see the same brand listed as the most, "premium" product in every catagory.

happy is spot on.
 but I think dog food analysis websites do hold some value if you look at them objectively. they do not put up false information about content and they do give you a way to compare foods and analyze the ingredients for yourself so you can make your own informed decisions on what to feed your dog

I still believe that 90% of what the DVM wrote is as pertinent today as it was 14 yrs ago.
Proplan is still a premium feed (read the label), who or what they sponsor or how they choose to advertise does not change that and neither does the price.  Is it a good value?  That’s a judgment call.  I am currently looking for a premium feed that is a better value and has a consistent supplier in my area.
I don’t believe very many feed companies are very scrupulous, they are not charitable organizations. They are in business to make a profit and bar none, will charge what ever they can get.  I also believe that premium diets are a small nitch in most feed compaies feed lines.  As I would surprised if even 1% of all dogs in the US and Canada are working dogs.

so what exactly makes purina pro plan a "premium dog food" other than the company touting it as one and most of working dog america believing it? the second ingredient is corn gluten, which IMO is enough to knock off the premium pedestal. but please explain.