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Author Topic: The little things  (Read 81956 times)

Offline RadSav

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The little things
« on: March 15, 2015, 08:22:02 PM »
I have been getting an increasing amount of PMs and e-mails asking for help and advise.  Helping is why I felt I needed to become a member of this forum so I do welcome the questions and PMs.  However, I have a growing concern about the number of questions relating to "Buying Success".  While I am in the business of selling archery goods, I also believe I am in the business of helping improve ones enjoyment and success in the archery and bowhunting sport.  I know few bowhunters who attempt to "Buy" big increases to their success annually.  That is not only a sad statement, but one that is not too good for the long term business plan either as most of them give up the sport after they realize it doesn't work.

I thought I might take a little time here and there to put together some little things that will save the pocket book and improve your outlook on your current gear.  Many of these things are free or only minor expenses at the local bow shop.  And while these are cheap little things the results are often HUGE.  And if they result in improved enjoyment of the sport perhaps their worth could be priceless!

The little things will follow in separate posts.  Sorry to start that way but an angry squaw posted this before I was completed :chuckle:  I'll complete the first as soon as I can get it typed.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 01:01:59 AM by RadSav »
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline Smossy's Girl

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Re: The little things
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2015, 08:34:23 PM »
Tagging  :hello:
❤️ 9/1/17 ❤️

Offline Boss .300 winmag

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Re: The little things
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2015, 08:36:47 PM »
 :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
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Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: The little things
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 08:41:28 PM »
While I don't currently archery hunt there are definite comparisons to all hunting means. People are much more inclined to just ask a question for the golden answer then actually practice and work on actually improving skills. I have known more than a few people that would tell me that the gun was shooting OK but could not sight the gun in because they were not strapped to a lead sled!  Really?!?!  If you can't shoot worth a damn without a Lead Sled then you should practice more or hang up the hunting of game.

I am interested in starting the stick and string method so plan to keep my eyes on this thread.

Offline Ddouble

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Re: The little things
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 08:43:58 PM »
Just got given a bow so I am intrigued.

Offline HillSlick

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Re: The little things
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 08:50:58 PM »
Subscribed!


-"Progress once meant hope for the future, now it will destroy it."

Offline RadSav

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Re: The little things
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 09:08:45 PM »
Most of the questions I receive are in regards to spending BIG money for a BETTER bow.  Problem is most can not tell me what they do not like about their current bow.  And if you don't know that then how can you determine with confidence the next bow will be any better?  Unless there is a large improvement in speed or a definite change in grip or brace height most people are spending money to end up in the same place.  To me that makes very little sense.

After 30+ years of working on other peoples bows I have noticed one little thing that almost every unsatisfied archer has in common - Their current bow is inconsistent and unforgiving!  This is especially true of Hybrid cam shooters.  Perhaps that is a marketing gimmick of Hoyts.  Think about it...if you have all the top target shooters winning tournaments with Hoyt yet your bow is not consistent or forgiving, maybe you need the new years Hoyt that's even better!!! :dunno: Well, before you go out and drop another house payment (or two) on a new Hoyt let's ask ourselves what those great target shooters are doing to find such great success.

It's easy to conclude that top target shooters and even hunters have a bow that fits them perfectly.  It's also clear to see that the top outdoor shooters have a bow/arrow combination that produces flawless arrow flight.  But you have a bow that fits and gives good arrow flight yet you shoot it good today and not so good tomorrow.  You start off your day hitting center and then later in the day your bow groups low or high.  You adjust your sights for the high POI and then tomorrow it is hitting low.  What are those premier guys doing that you simply can not?  The vast majority of the time it all boils down to "Creep Tuning"

Creep Tuning is a process of finding and tuning your cams to their "Sweet Spot".  That's a spot within the timing of the cam where you can get away with a little too much pressure on the stops or a little too much forward slide into the valley and still remain consistent in your POI.  Every cam system I have played with has one.  Some are wide spots and some (like the Cam 1/2) have narrow spots.  But every single bow I have had in the past 30 years has had a sweet spot!  And luckily it is rather easy to find if you have a bow press or a good quick service shop.

The key is to first get the arrow tune as close to perfect as you can achieve.  Then using a horizontal line you shoot your arrows with a base line group using perfect form and back tension.  You then shoot a group at the same horizontal line using a little too much back tension and another group sliding forward about 1/4" into the valley.  If the groups without the proper back tension rise or fall compared to the base line you are not tuned to the sweet part of the cam.

I am not going to give a step-by-step instruction on how to creep tune since the internet has about 100 different sites that explain it well with pictures and images to help.  A simple Bing or Google search for "Creep Tune"+"Hybrid" (or whatever your cam type is) should produce more than enough sources for you to complete the work easily.  Just remember the further back you can achieve a perfect base line the more accurate your tune will be.  For some that will be 10 or 20 yards and for others that will be 40 or 50 yards.  Be careful not to lie to yourself about your abilities.  A perfect base line at 20 is going to be much better than a false base line at 50.

The human body is an amazing machine adaptable to constant changes.  However, as we fatigue through a day of shooting, as we apply additional clothing for warmth, as we bend to shoot uphill/downhill or left/right the body's answers to adapt usually changes our draw and ability to repeat back tension in a 100% fashion.  So the creep tune gives us the largest amount of physical change before losing our POI.  Whether in the field or on the target line this can make the difference between happy and sad, content and discontent, success and failure.

It seems like such a little thing.  But it often results in one of my biggest rewards!

« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 12:58:10 AM by RadSav »
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline RadSav

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Re: The little things
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 12:50:31 AM »
Once we have found the Sweet Spot in our cam and have increased our bows forgiveness now is the time to really get aggressive with finding the "Sweet Spot" with our arrows.  I like to call this "Spine Tuning".  It is not an absolute necessity for a modern center shot compound bow to shoot with perfect spine, but it sure lends itself to more flexibility and forgiveness.  Many manly men who want to be known as the resident wiener measuring champions despise Spine Tuning.  Their personal happiness and social standing rests within the digital read out on a Chrony.  And for those guys who proclaim Speed Is Everything this little thing is not for them.  But to those who believe life is more than social endowment this may lead to further enjoyment of the sport through consistent repeatability.

The easiest way to "Spine Tune" is with a broadhead tipped arrow.  I will often times spine tune using a broadhead larger in cutting diameter than what I might shoot in the field.  If these broadheads have an equal weight to my chosen hunting head they will exaggerate the effect of an arrows spine while applying an equal amount of resistance and effect as those I will hunt with.  The more dynamic the effect the easier it is to fine tune the bow to work with a chosen arrow's spine.

A properly spined arrow, or more appropriately, a bow properly tuned to an arrows spine remains more forgiving to changes in point weight, point shape, weather changes, poor releases and breakdowns of shooting form in general.  A major reason I spine tune is that I test so many different broadheads throughout the year.  A proper spine assures my base line remains constant.  It often allows me to use the same arrow for testing 85 grain, 100 grain and 125 grain broadheads.  As a bowhunter it allows me to shoot arrows all day to stay in shape.  I can shoot steel blunts at stumps and dirt, Bludgeon blunts at grouse, Judo points at clumps of grass and any number of small game points at rabbits or other vermin without the need to change point of aim or adjust my sight block.  This really increases my enjoyment during those slow hunting days and greatly improves my odds when off season small game or stumps is my chosen quarry.  Target practice is one way to improve success, but off season and during season field practice will even further assure your success when that trophy presents itself!

Since we have creep tuned we already have a horizontal piece of tape on our target and a target point arrow tuned to hit it's center.  So let's use this as our base line once again.  All we want to do is get our arrows into the center of the horizontal stripe.  So grouping is done by moving along the stripe/tape left to right so we don't ruin arrows with well executed shots.  I use a three arrow row for this base line.  Next step is to shoot our broadhead tipped arrows at the same line once again being careful to group left to right along the horizontal line so we don't ruin arrows with well executed shots.  If our broadheads hit the same place on the stripe as the field points we move on.  If they do not we need to adjust our nock height or arrow rest height.  If we move the nock point or arrows rest in 1/32" increments the broadheads should move at an average rate of 3X that of our target points.  On a true center shot compound arrow spine may reflect in a horizontal or a vertical direction.  So with these bows we need to remain diligent in our ability to take notes and recognize changes.

If a 1/32" adjustment in our nock set or our arrow rest does not narrow the gap between the target points and the broadheads it is likely a spine issue and not a nock height/rest height issue.  So we will address that later.  If the 1/32" adjustment is successful in narrowing the gap we want to continue 1/32" at a time until the gap either stops improving or the two type points both hit in the middle of the horizontal line.  This is where micro adjustable arrow rests really pay off!!

Once we have established our best rest/nock height setting (even if our two arrow points are not yet together) we move on to shooting at a vertical stripe.  A carpenters level is a great way to make sure our line is true vertical! You can use a bright colored string and a plumb bob with good results too.  Here again we want to establish a base line with our target point arrows grouping along the stripe/tape.  Does not matter whether we group in a down to up or an up to down progression.  And once again we want to move our arrow rest 1/32" at a time in an attempt to bring the broadhead point arrows and the target point arrows together but stopping if the 1/32" movement in arrow rest adjustment produces zero change in the gap between the two or the two have successfully come together.

Now we should have our arrow rest and our nock height set to their optimal locations.  Now the magic trick happens!!!

Since our Creep Tuning has resulted in a perfect timing within the cams and limbs the odds are that any improper spine will be reflected in the vertical stripe rather than the horizontal stripe.  But do not be concerned if that is not what your notes and target is telling you.  Regardless as to what direction the spine favors to show itself there should be a clear picture toward which stripe (vertical or horizontal) has the largest remaining gap between broadheads and target points.  At this time we want to once again establish a well defined base line with the target points on which ever stripe proved to possess the largest gap.

I am going to assume for a moment (to save time and typing) that the percentages and laws of force have shown a larger gap between the broadheads and the target points on the vertical stripe.  Under this assumption we can conclude that broadhead tipped arrows hitting to the right of our base line are too weak in spine and broadhead tipped arrows hitting to the left of the base line are too stiff.

If an arrow is spined too weak we want to work in 1/4 turn increments to weaken the poundage of the bow.  It may take a number of adjustments before we start to see the broadhead tipped arrows begin to work their way toward the target points.  It all depends on just how weak the spine was for the bow.  You will want to do the exact opposite for a spine that is showing too stiff.  In this case we want to increase the poundage of the bow in 1/4 turn increments until the two come together.

Be careful to follow the manufacturers advise on how many turns are safe when backing off the limb bolts to reduce poundage!!  If you are unable to decrease or increase the poundage enough to bring the two type points together you may need to change the arrow spine altogether.  If this happens you will need to start the process all over once you possess the appropriate spined arrow.

Once you have the two points on the same line it is time to maximize it's forgiveness just as you did in the "Creep Tune".  To do this you will want to back off poundage until the broadhead tipped arrows POI just begins to leave the base line.  Then counting turns increase the poundage until the broadhead tipped arrow just starts to leave the base line again.  Divide the total number of turns in half and back off the poundage that amount.  Your result should leave you with the most forgiving finely tuned spine for your bow, your chosen broadhead and your shooting style.

Whatever your poundage is and whatever your speed works out to be it should still provide you with a better more enjoyable bow to shoot.  Those in Washington State will need to remember to check their grains per pound to be sure you are still legal because of that ridiculously stupid rule!

This is a labor intensive process and may need multiple days at the range to complete depending on your fatigue level.  As such many feel it is too much work for too little reward.  But to me it is one of those little things that adds mental strength and improves my confidence in big ways.  To me that is an important step toward my enjoyment of the sport.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 01:16:21 AM by RadSav »
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline RadSav

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Re: The little things
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 01:27:58 AM »
Those were the two biggest little things to explain.  The rest are rather simple little things to show and explain.  I have twelve total written down.  Though I expect more will come to mind as we continue forward.  I will try to post one every day or every couple days as time permits.

Top 10 List:
1 - Creep Tune
2 - Spine Tune
3 - FOC
4 - Helical Fletching
5 - Lower Your Anchor
6 - Old Bows and New Strings
7 - Proper release fit
8 - Warm Up Blind
9 - Why do I shoot Low at close range and High at long range?
10 - Peep Sight - Big or Small
11 - Where is my next arrow
12 - Bowhunter's magic tape
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 05:24:06 AM by RadSav »
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline D-Rock425

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Re: The little things
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 06:21:00 AM »
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

Offline steeliedrew

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Re: The little things
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 10:17:10 AM »
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:
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Offline bowtechian

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Re: The little things
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 10:24:35 AM »
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:
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Online pianoman9701

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Re: The little things
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 10:25:11 AM »
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:

He never shows up! I've been watching the door at Archery world every Wednesday for 2 years now and have yet to press the flesh with this man. It might just be me.  :chuckle:
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Offline RadSav

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Re: The little things
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 03:58:03 PM »
Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.

Most Pro Shop do not have the personnel to spend so much time on a tune.  If they were to charge a going hourly rate for such a tune they would likely see their name on Hunt-Washington...and not in a positive light!!  The "Creep Tune" usually does require a press so often times it needs to be done at a shop with a range.  But it should be much cheaper if not free to do yourself.  Really is quite easy once you understand control cables, power cables and how to advance or retard a chosen cam.

Maybe I should send my Hooter Shooter up to D-Rock for a few months.  It makes short work of Creep Tuning.  I assume with his access to the club maybe he would want to make a little antelope hunting money on the side :dunno: I would need to get my laser fixed first.  But...It could happen, maybe!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 07:07:57 PM by RadSav »
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline DRENALINJUNKIE

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Re: The little things
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 04:06:43 PM »
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