What happend to the alkali unit?

[bobcat]

The thing is, if the Colockum doesn't have a general season, everybody who hunted there will go into the Yakima GMU's, which will put too much pressure on those elk, and make for a crowded hunting experience. So, they would have to make that permit only as well. Or SHOULD, anyway. I don't know what they would actually do. But if you displace a lot of hunters by closing a popular area, they're going to hunt somewhere else. We really need to get to where a person can't hunt elk every year in this state as it is now. There are just too many people and not enough elk.

[sako223]

Managing a herd by culling or harvesting is ok if you have manageable herd sizes to start with and the ability to curtail season. Starting with a herd of 1000 is far different than starting with a low estimate of 250. Stop shooting is the first step here. Getting after the poor management team is the next.

YTC being a different case when compared to the Wenas. With it's approximately 350,000 acres YTC  has plenty of habitat to support way more wildlife without even measuring.
Also in my observation YTC does not have a shortage of mature bucks like other GMU's. I also don't think the current 3 point minimum is working especially in open ground where a large rack can be spotted at great distance with the naked eye.
Going to a standard draw permit only would be a disaster and lose hunters quickly. Just like our system now, who would wait for years to get drawn and not be able to hunt in between.
At first thought an odd even system may help, being able to hunt every other year for deer and alternating with elk every other year. No doubt this would put more pressure on predators.

[bobcat]

Going to a standard draw permit only would be a disaster and lose hunters quickly. Just like our system now, who would wait for years to get drawn and not be able to hunt in between.

Why would it be a disaster? Other states like Oregon have permit only hunting for mule deer. Why would it not work in this state if it works there (and in other states as well.) 

[sako223]

Well first off hunters are at a point of frustration in many categories here in WA so there is no easy answer. Our current draw system is an example of issues and distrust, It also shows that obviously everyone cannot be drawn every year and for some it means not getting drawn for many years in a row. this alone will cause some hunters to drop out with permit only season.
Deer hunters today may equal half the deer hunters in this state 30 years ago. Adding one more factor to the reasons to restrict hunting could accelerate the decline in numbers.
Other states have permit seasons but I am not sure what "It Works" means. From what I have read about some states draw seasons is that it creates frustration and often drives residents to purchase non resident tags in other states. Essentially sending recreation tax dollars out of state too.

My impression is that is if hunters knew that they could hunt one big game species each year then they will stick with it. participating with friends and family in off years.
If it were strictly permit only for mule deer I would not start in the system.
Also I believe they could bring whitetails into some areas and improve success rates with little impact on others.

[huntnphool]

Why would it be a disaster? Other states like Oregon have permit only hunting for mule deer. Why would it not work in this state if it works there (and in other states as well.) 

 It should have sunk in by now that you are in the minority on wanting this type of regulation, how many times are you going to ask this same question?

[bobcat]

Well, mis-managing this state's big game in order to not lose hunters just doesn't seem like a valid reason to do so, in my opinion. I would not mind missing a year of deer hunting, as I would then spend my time hunting other things. There are always bears to be hunted, or grouse, ducks, chukar, coyotes, and many others to keep a guy in the outdoors hunting. Or in the off year(s) you go along on friend's or family member's hunts. I just don't understand how killing more than the ideal number of animals per year to keep their numbers in balance can be justified. If it's a revenue issue, then raise the price of deer and elk tags a couple dollars, and sell less of them.

[bobcat]

It should have sunk in by now that you are in the minority on wanting this type of regulation, how many times are you going to ask this same question?

Of course I'm in the minority. Most people are selfish and only think of what is best for them, not what is best for wildlife. And most people simply want to be able to hunt deer and elk every year with no restrictions. I understand that, and I actually like the freedom it gives us too. But I also would like to actually be able to go out and see good numbers of deer and elk. Some of the hunting seasons we have now are a joke.

[whacker1]

I kind of agree with Bobcat - with the exception that I think they can honestly shut down a couple of units per year without stressing the entire system, and still have significant results in the process.  It may not work in the clockum as well as it will in other units.  But there are other political motivational factors for WDFW besides just the fear of losing hunters.   They may have to answer the phone a few thousand times.   

[colockumelk]

So what is your point again?

That I haven't read the thread but wanted to give you a hard time!!

Brandon

That's why I love you bro But only in a platonic way.  Not the Romantic one like you want me to. 

[muleyguy]

WA state is probably within 10 yrs of going to a complete draw for all elk and deer;  I know most do not want to hear that, but, it is just the reality of the situation.  WA state has more hunters and less land then any other Western state;  plus a tribal problem and a wolf problem that grows every day, and a statewide population growth higher then in other states.  It is just getting too unwieldy for the the WDFW to try and properly manage the deer and elk herds under these conditions.

  It might be possible to leave westside blacktails and eastside whitetails out of the draw system, but, the problem with that is if you do that, then it pushes all the hunters in those directions and puts undue pressure on those herds.

At the end of the day, you have to manage for the health of the herd, or it just slowly disentegrates; you need sustainable numbers, a decent buck to doe ratio, and a decent ratio of mature bucks in the population;  if you don't do that, you are going to have problems.

what is going to happen is the Department is going to resist with every bone in its body to go to a draw system because it is very unpopular with hunters and it has a revenue impact on the department;  so, what will eventually make the decision will not be people on boards like this arguing about it, or the Department itself;  what will happen is the herds will be in such rough shape, the department will have no other choice.

Whether that is 5 yrs from now or 10 yrs from now, I do not know;  but, it is inevitable.  The wisest choice would be to implement it now, and get ahead of it.  But, that will probably not happen.

I think most would be shocked at the very minimal restrictions that would have to be put into place to restore the herds to health;  a simple 25% reduction in buck harvests and complete elimination of doe tags for all weapon choices would quickly get things back to healthy conditions.   Personally, I would rather be able to hunt 3 out of every 4 years, but, have a good experience those three years, then go all four yrs and have it be an experience like it currently is.

Once you get population objectives back to where they should be, and get the makeup and buck ratio proper again, my guess is the herds would be healthy enough to start layering in additional opportunities and you might only not have get to hunt 1 out of every 6 or 7 years.

[bobcat]

Thank you muleyguy!  I get tired of everybody thinking I'm crazy when I mention this state going to draw only hunting for deer and elk.

As you said, eventually, it is inevitable in this state. There's just no way around it, with the increase in the human population we've had here over the years.

[provider]

You may be in the minority bocat...  but you are right. 

[HHPro]

I agree with bobcat,if this state doesn't do something drastic there wont be many deer or elk in a few years.I wouldn't mind not hunting a year for elk or deer if that meant there would be more animals around.

[colockumelk]

Bobcat you know I got your back and completely agree with you.  THe funny thing is and what the majority don't realize is that they are being SELFISH in wanting to hunt Mule Deer Every Year in Yakima or Kittitas County.  There's other countys you can hunt.  We're not saying we're taking your rights  For GOD's SAKES people we've lost over 50% of our herd to disease in the last 5 years.  And you think you have the RIGHT to kill them more.  What sort of depletion would it take for most of you to agree to permit only?  70%-80%-90%?  How about 10 deer in Yakima county.  Then we could all sit around a fire and get bombed.  We wouldn't see deer but we could go "hunting."  Hunting to me is going out and seeing legal animals that I can try and kill.  If I just wanted to "SEE" the country I go camping for that.  

There are those of us who are sick of the pathetic seasons that this state call hunting.  We are sick of seeing ouor herds completely depleted and then further pressured through hunting.  If I could hunt every year and still have quality hunting then I would love that.  But the truth of the matter is that it is irresponsible for our state in some areas to have OTC tags.  And in the Yakima and Kittitas GMU's is one example.  When you have herds that are depleted such as this WHY WOULDN"T ALL OF YOU WANT it permit only in those areas.  Do you not care about the deer?  If it did go to permit only you could still hunt just not in Yakima or Kittitas County.  Same thing with the Colockum elk herd.  FOR GODS SAKES 70% of the branch bull population is GONE.  WHY ARENT ALL OF YOU SCREAMING FOR PERMIT ONLY.  Is it because you don't care about the animals you hunt. ?  It's obvious in the Colockum that a general season doesn't work.  But yet most people cried at the WDFW about taking the general season out of the Colockum GMUS's.  WHY??? BECAUSE 90% OF PEOPLE ARE SELFISH.

I realize I'm not popular because of my opinions but maybe some of us need to look deep inside about what's really important.  What matters most.  Is quality hunting and the wellfare of our herds important or us goining out and camping with a gun more important?

[colockumelk]

If I offended anyone I appologize.  I just get angry and frustrated when I see a problem such as Central Washington Mule Deer which is very legit (ie 50% depletion) and the first thing people say is "But what about me."  I just think that that is very selfish.  I think our goal in regards to hunting should be to leave our children with better hunting than we have now.