One good reason Challenge

[NOCK NOCK]

I would like to hear 1 good, logically sound, factual reason why street legal ATV's/UTV's should not be allowed to ride on forest service roads that are legally open to other motor vehicles.

There are 2-3 answers that always come up that IMO do not hold water.

   1. They do a lot of resource damage.
Every act that man does in the forest causes resource damage.
Pedestrian/Bicycle traffic: Tramples flora & fauna, creates new trails, etc.
Horses/Livestock: tear up trail & fauna, cut switchbacks, unchecked feed brings unwanted weeds, landmines
Motorcycles: Rut up roads/trails, hit the berms on banks(erosion)cut switchbacks on trails, etc.
Trucks/Autos: Tear up roads, make new roads, flatten small trees, make short cuts,.....
Snowmobiles: Trees are traction, bushes too.
We all do damage, so why do all these users get basically wide open use of the system..except ATV's?

   2. ATV's always going into/around closed roads/areas/gates.
And motorcycles never do this? They are not banned from the forest. In fact, most roads that are gated, bermed, or boulderd closed, are not even possible to get an ATV around but could easily be done with a motorcycle.

   3. Safety issue.
In a head on, or other type of collision on a FS road, ATV's are just as/if not more safe than a motorcycle or mountain bike. UTV's are far more safer, having full cage certified roll bars(does your P/U have a roll cage?

I use all of the above modes of transportation, and am fed up with all of the negativity aimed towards ATV's. Because it's not your way, you feel that we should not be able to enjoy OUR forest how we want to?
What if archery hunters took that view against modern firearms?
Some jackwagons mass murder with guns, Are you prepared to give yours up?
WE outdoorsman need to all stick together for the good of ALL, or one by one we will all lose our oppurtunitys,

So ya I'm calling you out (Esp. you Washelk )
Give me 1 GOOD reason.

[Band]

As a person who enjoys riding my ATV slowly and responsibly on gravel roads in the mountains it is very frustrating to me that due to regulations I pretty much have to just garage the thing because I can't ride it hardly anywhere.  I guarantee you that my type of riding does the same amount of "damage" to the road as any typical truck.  And I don't take it off road.  Very frustrating indeed.

[Buzz2401]

The only reason I can think of is that ATV's are way to easy to go over the speed limit on the gravel roads.  It can be hard to keep at a resonable speed. There is a considerable risk of death if you hit a truck on an ATV.

[NOCK NOCK]

The only reason I can think of is that ATV's are way to easy to go over the speed limit on the gravel roads.  It can be hard to keep at a resonable speed. There is a considerable risk of death if you hit a truck on an ATV.

And this is different from??____________??   motorcycle, mtn. bike, etc.  Read #3 again

[Halo]

It's getting pretty hard to come up with one good reason why to spend a dime in this state buying or renewing your ORV tabs, or for a Discovery Pass for that matter. I find my recreational dollars leaving this state more all the time. States like Idaho, Montana and Wyoming don't seem to mind my recreational dollars. They don't seem to have a problem with my ATV, less restrictive laws in general, and way better hunting. In those states and many others common sense is not only allowed but encouraged and expected and not legislated away in an attempt to protect us from ourselves while emptying our pockets like in this state. If I didn't have max points going for sheep & moose and 16 points for elk I would never buy another hunting or fishing license in this state either.

[bowhunterwa87]

Lol i love this guys posts.   

[Halo]

 Where is the funding for additional leo's and personnel going to come from to educate the public?

 Exactly my point, let the state get the money from the granola eating tree huggers and the tribes, that's who they want to cater to. I like to vote with my dollars and support what I want to support, any more I can't feel good about spending my recreational dollars here. If I cant be part of the solution at least I can try to avoid monetarily supporting the problem.

[washelkhunter]

Well Nyuck Nyuck, ATV's/UTV's are not allowed on the roads because the legislature of WA. St. has decided in their wisdom, and rightly so, that they are not "street legal" and thus cannot be legally licensed to operate on the publics roadways. Which also means the owners cannot purchase the necessary and req'd liability insurance to cover the costs of accidents etc. However it appears that positive change is coming for the ATV community in this regard. Personally I have no issue with them being legally licensed and properly insured to operate on the roads, nor do I take issue with the NFS's to ban and/or restrict the use of them on their roads and trails in the interests of resource and public protection. My arguement has always been with the jackwagons who even tho operation of their rides at all was illegal still manage to showup and commit illegal acts such as riding down closed roads, trails, around barriers and cross country, but still manage to possess the arrogant stupidity that doing so is somehow their right. And then they're righteously indignant after i've bashed in the crankcase of their ride after coming across it deep in forbidden territory! Sheesh, some people eh?    Also the arguement for the use of atv's shouldnt be predicated on the use or misuse of other forms of transport. Dont compare apples to oranges. Im cool with them being legally operated but what I would like to see in place is a say $10,000 fine and confiscation for each infraction of illegal use and that should go for the others as well. Challenge met.

[bobcat]

I think they should be legal on Forest service roads. Jeeps, pickups, and cars are allowed, why not ATV's?

I do understand the reasoning behind keeping them out of the National Forests though. It's because many people can't or won't follow rules.

ATV's can easily get around gates and past road blockages. Most people won't ride their ATV up a main road and park it on the side of the road where they can begin hiking on a trail or closed road. Instead they simply continue on the ATV.

This is where violators need to receive an extremely high penalty, like washelkhunter mentioned. If someone is caught on a closed road or trail, confiscate the ATV. Eventually word will get out and people might learn that they they need to follow the rules.


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[Halo]

Im cool with them being legally operated but what I would like to see in place is a say $10,000 fine and confiscation for each infraction of illegal use and that should go for the others as well. Challenge met.

I wish it were that easy. I'm not sure I like the confiscation thing, you end up with Joe tax paying citizen inadvertently being in the wrong area and it costs him his ten thousand dollar ATV while Joe derelict tearing up the wilderness on his mufflerless $500 beater ATV is only out his $500 oil leaking brakeless unsafe junk pile. Taking his ATV won't make him any smarter or less of a menace either, he'll either get another junker or just use his junker pickup to rip out the gate and drive in to continue being a menace. And I can't see it working that well with other user groups, load up that horse, they took it off the road. As for the $10,000 dollar fine you know Joe derelict will not pay any of it, what can LE do, issue a warrant? We already kick the tweekers loose from jail when caught for residential burglary etc. after a day or two behind bars. Most property crime is catch & release, I guess we could kick a few of those derelicts loose even earlier to make room for the ATV jackwagons. No easy answers. I think it works better when more areas are open to ATV's so they can police their own. I know I have seen a few "shoolings" in the woods about responsible ATV use and the lack of it getting areas shut down. The area gets shut down and then there is no one there with skin in the game to bother the jackwagons except the occasional hiker or hunter on foot who might call them in creating a 1 in 100 chance of them being caught and we are back to those LE dilemma's again. I wish there were easy answers.

[jrebel]

I don't have a reason....

I believe they should be legal anywhere any other motorized vehicle is legal.  I also believe that if they are found doing something illegal they should be heavily fined (like other users).  If they are found off the recognized trail / roads they should loose their rigs and receive a hefty fine.  If word gets out the fines and penalties are tough...people will think twice before being stupid.   

[bobcat]

How about a more reasonable fine then- say $1,000, no exceptions.

We also need substantial fines for those who think forest service roads make a good race track.

[jrebel]

How about a more reasonable fine then- say $1,000, no exceptions.

We also need substantial fines for those who think forest service roads make a good race track.

Are you saying $1000 is to much or to little? 

I think if you are caught doing something stupid $1000 fines would make you think twice....and even better would be 1K to 5K and loose your ride....obviously depending on the infraction. 

[bobcat]

I was responding to Halo, he didn't like the confiscation idea. So I was thinking maybe just a stiff fine would be more fair.


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[Halo]

How about a more reasonable fine then- say $1,000, no exceptions.

We also need substantial fines for those who think forest service roads make a good race track.

Maybe confiscate until the fine is paid. That would be fair and create a little leverage to get derelicts to pay the fine I guess. Might not make them smarter or more responsible but at least it would help for a while. I agree on the forest service race track thing.

[washelkhunter]

Actually $10k might be too light. Maybe the fine should be tied to the resource damage created, say what ever it costs to restore the resource, plus incarceration and garnishment of future wages, pensions, savings etc.   

[bobcat]

How about a more reasonable fine then- say $1,000, no exceptions.

We also need substantial fines for those who think forest service roads make a good race track.

Maybe confiscate until the fine is paid. That would be fair and create a little leverage to get derelicts to pay the fine I guess. Might not make them smarter or more responsible but at least it would help for a while. I agree on the forest service race track thing.

I like that idea. 


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[RadSav]

I would like to hear 1 good, logically sound, factual reason why street legal ATV's/UTV's should not be allowed to ride on forest service roads that are legally open to other motor vehicles.

Is there such a thing as a street legal ATV in the state of Washington?  About the closest I can think of is a Cushman.

[dontgetcrabs]

It's getting pretty hard to come up with one good reason why to spend a dime in this state buying or renewing your ORV tabs, or for a Discovery Pass for that matter.

I own 3 ATV's. I haven't bought WA ORV tabs for any of them in many years. Last time I did it was over $20 per ATV per year. I buy OR ORV tabs for $10, they are good for 2 years and allow us to ride ,wherever legal of course , in WA, ID, and OR. Also I have never bought a Discover Pass nor will I.

[NOCK NOCK]

I would like to hear 1 good, logically sound, factual reason why street legal ATV's/UTV's should not be allowed to ride on forest service roads that are legally open to other motor vehicles.

Is there such a thing as a street legal ATV in the state of Washington?  About the closest I can think of is a Cushman.

Yes there is Rad, HB1632, went into effect last year. My Can am UTV is street legal... turn signals, horn, mirrors all the way around, headlights, tail lights, lap & shoulder belts, license plate, & registration......

[NOCK NOCK]

You ATV'ers just need to suck your thumbs and  .

Where is the funding for additional leo's and personnel going to come from to educate the public?

You are just sad. Guess what, life isn't fair.

Nice, very mature response, especially the reference to child like behavior, Naches sportsman huh?

[NOCK NOCK]

Well Nyuck Nyuck, ATV's/UTV's are not allowed on the roads because the legislature of WA. St. has decided in their wisdom, and rightly so, that they are not "street legal" and thus cannot be legally licensed to operate on the publics roadways. Which also means the owners cannot purchase the necessary and req'd liability insurance to cover the costs of accidents etc. However it appears that positive change is coming for the ATV community in this regard. Personally I have no issue with them being legally licensed and properly insured to operate on the roads, nor do I take issue with the NFS's to ban and/or restrict the use of them on their roads and trails in the interests of resource and public protection. My arguement has always been with the jackwagons who even tho operation of their rides at all was illegal still manage to showup and commit illegal acts such as riding down closed roads, trails, around barriers and cross country, but still manage to possess the arrogant stupidity that doing so is somehow their right. And then they're righteously indignant after i've bashed in the crankcase of their ride after coming across it deep in forbidden territory! Sheesh, some people eh?    Also the arguement for the use of atv's shouldnt be predicated on the use or misuse of other forms of transport. Dont compare apples to oranges. Im cool with them being legally operated but what I would like to see in place is a say $10,000 fine and confiscation for each infraction of illegal use and that should go for the others as well. Challenge met.

You are wrong my friend. Wa St has passed HB1632, ATV/UTV's can be made street legal now. One can also purchase full coverage insurance for ON & OFF road riding (not a requirement of the law though)
 In WA State motorcycles(Harley's, street bikes,etc.) do not need to have insurance to legally ride on the roads.
LOL on the bashing thing, you the man 

[RadSav]

I would like to hear 1 good, logically sound, factual reason why street legal ATV's/UTV's should not be allowed to ride on forest service roads that are legally open to other motor vehicles.

Is there such a thing as a street legal ATV in the state of Washington?  About the closest I can think of is a Cushman.

Yes there is Rad, HB1632, went into effect last year. My Can am UTV is street legal... turn signals, horn, mirrors all the way around, headlights, tail lights, lap & shoulder belts, license plate, & registration......

And you are saying that CanAm is not legal to ride on forest service roads even when fully licensed?  I apologies for my ignorance on this issue.  Just trying to understand.

[rtspring]

To the discussion of adding fines on the first page, do you know that the money isn't seen by the particular forest the ticket wad written on?

I would like to see something on top of paying a fine. Perhaps for every $100 dollar paid for a fine, the person has to clean 1 culvert or clean 10 feet of ditch with a hand shovel. repeat until they have paid the fine.  Or, if they choose  not to pay a fine, make them do three times the amount of work. For every $100 the fine costs, 3 culverts or 30 feet of ditch needs to be cleaned.

This idea would pertain to all ohv violations.

Your a hater! No ATV is any diffrent than a jeep or truck! Here is a fact! My truck will do way more damage to any road or meadow or whatever than my ATV will...  Maybe we should fine horse riders for tearing up the forsest, and mushroom pickers, wood cutters, people cutting brush to fish next to the river, campers, people hanging trail cams, it goes on and on! 

Yes ATV people who are tearing crap up on purpose! Throw the book at them! Other than that there is no reason they should not be allowed on any forest road!   Safety? Give me a break! I have seen even you doing 30 plus on the forest roads!!! But let me guess ? That dont tear up gravel roads??? I call BS! 

I own a ATV and will use it! Fine me all you wish but soon it will be legal so I really dont care...  Haters gonna hate...

Rtspring

[snowpack]

Yeah, ATVs actually do less damage.  Lighter with large footprint and low PSI in the tires.  Trucks will rut up a road way worse than an ATV will

[SniperDanWA]

To the discussion of adding fines on the first page, do you know that the money isn't seen by the particular forest the ticket wad written on?

I would like to see something on top of paying a fine. Perhaps for every $100 dollar paid for a fine, the person has to clean 1 culvert or clean 10 feet of ditch with a hand shovel. repeat until they have paid the fine.  Or, if they choose  not to pay a fine, make them do three times the amount of work. For every $100 the fine costs, 3 culverts or 30 feet of ditch needs to be cleaned.

This idea would pertain to all ohv violations.

The fines you outline are ridiculous, in my opinion.  You know good and well that most of the damage in the units you drive is from people using 4x4s and not quads, especially during elk season.  I'd like to see those who off-road fined too (not really) as I believe most deep ruts come from truck and jeep traffic.

The places I hunt I can't even drive a 4x4 into let alone a quad, so why do I care .

[washelkhunter]

You are wrong my friend. Wa St has passed HB1632, ATV/UTV's can be made street legal now. One can also purchase full coverage insurance for ON & OFF road riding (not a requirement of the law though)
 In WA State motorcycles(Harley's, street bikes,etc.) do not need to have insurance to legally ride on the roads.
LOL on the bashing thing, you the man 

Whoa, whoa not so fast. Possessing liability insurance is indeed a "requirement" if you are riding on almost all roads in this state. You are not required to have it if you're just operating within designated ORV riding areas, some open roads and open trails to WATV's. Motorcycles have to carry insurance as well. RCW 46.30.020. Then read RCW 46.04.310. Furthermore atv's are not allowed on designated roads with posted speed limits above 35 mph. And you better have a helmet on at all times. 

[NOCK NOCK]

You are wrong my friend. Wa St has passed HB1632, ATV/UTV's can be made street legal now. One can also purchase full coverage insurance for ON & OFF road riding (not a requirement of the law though)
 In WA State motorcycles(Harley's, street bikes,etc.) do not need to have insurance to legally ride on the roads.
LOL on the bashing thing, you the man 

Whoa, whoa not so fast. Possessing liability insurance is indeed a "requirement" if you are riding on almost all roads in this state. You are not required to have it if you're just operating within designated ORV riding areas, some open roads and open trails to WATV's. Motorcycles have to carry insurance as well. RCW 46.30.020. Then read RCW 46.04.310. Furthermore atv's are not allowed on designated roads with posted speed limits above 35 mph. And you better have a helmet on at all times.

I will say it again, Washelk, you are wrong, please research before you post.

46.04.310
Motor truck.

"Motor truck" means any motor vehicle designed or used for the transportation of commodities, merchandise, produce, freight, or animals.

RCW 46.30.020:
  (3) The provisions of this chapter shall not govern:

     (a) The operation of a motor vehicle registered under RCW 46.18.220 or 46.18.255, governed by RCW 46.16A.170, or registered with the Washington utilities and transportation commission as common or contract carriers; or

     (b) The operation of a motorcycle as defined in RCW 46.04.330, a motor-driven cycle as defined in RCW 46.04.332, a moped as defined in RCW 46.04.304, or a wheeled all-terrain vehicle as defined in RCW 46.09.310.


Taken from WA ST DOL website:
Exceptions

You don’t need to have insurance when you operate a vehicle registered as any of the following:
•Motorcycle. (RCW 46.04.330)

Helmets are not required on UTV's that are equipped with roll bars & seat belts

At least you "kinda" got the 35mph restriction right Wash elk(50 in some area's)
Any Questions?

[washelkhunter]

All motor vehicles must have liability insurance to operate on the states roads and highways. ALL. Call the DMV and ask.

[NOCK NOCK]

I would like to hear 1 good, logically sound, factual reason why street legal ATV's/UTV's should not be allowed to ride on forest service roads that are legally open to other motor vehicles.

Is there such a thing as a street legal ATV in the state of Washington?  About the closest I can think of is a Cushman.

Yes there is Rad, HB1632, went into effect last year. My Can am UTV is street legal... turn signals, horn, mirrors all the way around, headlights, tail lights, lap & shoulder belts, license plate, & registration......

And you are saying that CanAm is not legal to ride on forest service roads even when fully licensed?  I apologies for my ignorance on this issue.  Just trying to understand.

As of right now, that's correct Rad. Not just Can am, ANY Atv/Utv's that have been equipped to be street legal are not allowed on FS roads. They can legally be operated in many county and city jurisdictions with posted speed limits 35mph or less. In my area this includes, Chelan County, Douglas County, and within the city limits of East Wenatchee. I can LEGALLY ride right down into town to get groceries, go out to eat, etc.

[RadSav]

As of right now, that's correct Rad. Not just Can am, ANY Atv/Utv's that have been equipped to be street legal are not allowed on FS roads. They can legally be operated in many county and city jurisdictions with posted speed limits 35mph or less. In my area this includes, Chelan County, Douglas County, and within the city limits of East Wenatchee. I can LEGALLY ride right down into town to get groceries, go out to eat, etc.

Huh!  I thought as long as it was a licensed street legal machine it was ok.  Well, except for private property lands like Weyco.  You do know all those ATV operators are all a bunch of hooligans anyway, don't you?   Gotta keep the riffraff out!

[NOCK NOCK]

All motor vehicles must have liability insurance to operate on the states roads and highways. ALL. Call the DMV and ask.

Still Wrong my friend, You need to research better before you post. Maybe these people will help you understand.

Washington State office of the Insurance Commissioner
1-800-562-6900-ask for Property & Casualty

PS: "motor vehicles" are not the same as "motorcycles" or "OHV/ORV's"  I believe the meaning of these terms is why your not understanding. Research,research,research

[washelkhunter]

You're right, they are not reqd to carry liability insurance. Hard to believe a state like ours permits that. I suppose you have to sue the estate to collect damages.

[JLS]

It has nothing to do with suing the state.  Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

[JLS]

Nock Nock,

Although I don't own an ATV and probably never will, I cannot and won't try to give you a reason as to why they are not allowed on Forest Service roads.  In fact, I think they should be so long as they are licensed and the operator has a valid driver's license.

[snowpack]

It has nothing to do with suing the state.  Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

Estate not state.

[JLS]

It has nothing to do with suing the state.  Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

Estate not state.

Ooops, my bad

[blackveltbowhunter]

   I can't give you a reason. And to be honest I think they should be allowed on any forest service road/state forest rd open to vehicles. Along with trails etc.. . I have no skin in the game so to speak, and am not an atv owner. I do have a problem with the excuses that you are pointing out NOCK, and view them as just that. An excuse. Truth be told, I think it comes down to a simple enforcement issue. The state, forest service whatever cannot enforce the irresponsible folks, so they shut it down for ALL. Typical of government, its touted as being for SAFETY. (The dumbest word ever, also known as I get to tell you to do whatever I want because it in the issue of safety ). In my experience very few folks ever get caught, and many that do, were honest mistakes. IMO not deserving of ruining someones life over.

   

[NOCK NOCK]

You may be right blackvelvet, with the enforcement idea. Guilty until proven innocent with the FS. This is the exact reason we all need to learn to share. If they can't enforce one user group, what's to stop them from going after say motorcycles on the FS roads next?

I am curious as to what you call excuses? Excuses are people generalizing that all atv'rs ride irresponsibly(off road & tearing it up) Facts are that all user groups have some that are not responsible.
If we as the "general public" continue to let the "bad apples" actions dictate how us the "good people" are to use our forest, soon only the "greenies" will have access.

[blackveltbowhunter]

 ... I re-read my post and the phrase is poorly written. I was trying to say that the reasons you bulleted in your OP are excuses the "entities" (insert government here), use to circumvent the real issue. Which IMO is that they would rather be lazy and close it to all atvs, than actually step up to the plate and patrol as needed. 

   I understand this is a multi faceted issue, where does the money come from? what kind of penalties? where does the line get drawn? etc....

   

   

   

[NOCK NOCK]

Gotcha BV,
As an example, Douglas county has approved use of street legalized atv's on their county roads for 1 year. At the end of that year, they will analyze how it worked and decide whether or not to continue allowing them.
I feel this is fair, Innocent until proven guilty.
As far as enforcement, Why does most everyone feel we need more Leo's on the roads just because quads would be utilizing them? Why does this type of vehicle require more enforcement? Any average motorcycle rider could take their bike anywhere a quad could go, and definitely more places (I have seen many roads closed  with boulders-bikes will fit through, quads wont).  I don't buy the enforcement excuse. IMO

[kirkl]

Naches knows all cause his mommy works for the forrest service. One of the biggest cry babys on here.