long range muzzleloader legal in idaho

[idaho guy]

 Is there anyone that makes long range muzzleloaders that would be legal in idaho? we have to have exposed ignintion system when ready to fire -no 209 primers/sabots and must use open sights.When I say long range I probably mean medium but long for a muzzleloader-400 yards     Maybe something with a ladder type peep sight.   

[MtnMuley]

Pretty much the same rules as us here in WA. Good luck finding one or a sight system where shooting 400yds will work effectively.

[idaho guy]

ya 400 is pushing it but I would like to get beyond what I am comfortable shooting my current muzzleloader at which is about 100 maybe 150. I read where people are shooting them400-500 yards but they might not have all the restrictions

[snowpack]

I've heard of some custom builds.  There is still a sizable group around the country that does long range muzzleloader competitions.  I think they use musket caps and use 'F' powder with a little '4F' to compensate for the primer.  They have long barrels and the elevated peeps.  Think they shoot way out...don't hold me to this...but I think 1,000 yds.

[Kazekurt]

It's really hard to ethically shoot an open sites gun at 400 yards.  At that range, it's close to impossible to really tell where your sites are on the animal as they basically block it  out  or cover so much of the animal that you can't be sure exactly where your aiming.  Without optics on top, your eye, not the gun will be your greatest range limiter unless your just hoping to hit the animal somewhere(IMHO).

[birddogdad]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f32/traditional-lr-muzzle-loader-how-25028/

I would start with chatting here....they might have info you are looking for, however, open sights , that is a looooooong way to kill vs cripple an animal...

[BoomWhop]

400+ is way out there for open sites on a deer or Elk for me as well.  If you find a great setup please share.  I have a blackdiamond .50 XR with a peep site.  I think it can shoot that far with enough punch, but I know I can't see that far with my eyes.  I pulled a Any Bull tag and shot @ 500 rounds out to 200+ yards, i could hit a 14inch by 14 inch pizza box at 200-225 yards 9-10 times consistently.  I did notice when I missed it was by 2-3 feet  It would be cool to see someone skilled enough to shoot a muzzy 1000 yards, I know I don't have the time, money and mostly the patience to shoot that far.

[bobcat]

400 yards is way too far to kill an elk with a muzzleloader, even if you could hit it. Heck that's a long shot for a scoped 30/06. Just my opinion but if you want to shoot 400 yards you need to be hunting the rifle season, not muzzleloader.

[idaho guy]

 Bobcat and kazecurt- Thanks for the ethics lesson on how far I should shoot my weapons. Yes there is a group of people who shoot old school open site muzzleloaders way out there. My freind here in Idaho does the shoots so I will just ask him where to go. I also shoot my 30-378 long range and can shoot it at 1000 yards. I shot my moose last year at 620 yards bedded down in brush and hit him in the heart. One shot dead-was that also WAY too far too shoot?I was glassing from a good distance and I watched a group of 3 guys spook a herd of elk and all shoot repeatedly at the herd at 100 yards-no meat hit the ground but I cant imagine they didnt wound at least one. Was that more ethical than shooting a muzzleloader long range?   If I dont have the knock down to shoot an elk at 400 yards I wont shoot it. I was looking for information thanks to the few who actually did provide some. I should have said longer range than what I currently feel comfortable shooting a muzzleloader which is 100-150 yard with my current set up         

[Sabotloader]

Bobcat and kazecurt- Thanks for the ethics lesson on how far I should shoot my weapons. Yes there is a group of people who shoot old school open site muzzleloaders way out there. My freind here in Idaho does the shoots so I will just ask him where to go. I also shoot my 30-378 long range and can shoot it at 1000 yards. I shot my moose last year at 620 yards bedded down in brush and hit him in the heart. One shot dead-was that also WAY too far too shoot?I was glassing from a good distance and I watched a group of 3 guys spook a herd of elk and all shoot repeatedly at the herd at 100 yards-no meat hit the ground but I cant imagine they didnt wound at least one. Was that more ethical than shooting a muzzleloader long range?   If I dont have the knock down to shoot an elk at 400 yards I wont shoot it. I was looking for information thanks to the few who actually did provide some. I should have said longer range than what I currently feel comfortable shooting a muzzleloader which is 100-150 yard with my current set up         

In your case I think the limiting factor would probably be the sights and the energy considerations not necessarily the rifle.  And if you are expecting to use it in the Pac Northwest you would also have to consider the ignition system.  If you want a truly long distance shooting rifle of the modern variety there two that you might consider on or coming on the market.

The first one might be the Ultimate ML.

http://ultimatefirearms.com/

and the new one being produced by Remington, the Remington Ultimate

http://ultimatemuzzleloader.com/

But, were I interested in this type of rifle - I think I would turn to Jeff Hankins and have him build me one of his creations...  While he builds mostly centerfire rifles he really make a fine ML also.

http://hankinscustomrifles.com/

Might take a look through this thread on Huntingnet

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/394060-jeff-hankins-customs-does-again.html

Pretty nice creations that he makes... This one is smokeless but it does not have to be.



And my last thought to throw out there for a 300 yard gun might be a Knight Mountaineer.

http://www.knightrifles.com/muzzleloaders/

[whacker1]

Let us know what you find.  I have had a difficult time finding sights that would help me extend my range beyond 125 yards.  I don't want to extend a long ways, but I would like to practice at 150-200 to make me more confident at the 125 and tighten my group. 

[Sabotloader]

Let us know what you find.  I have had a difficult time finding sights that would help me extend my range beyond 125 yards.  I don't want to extend a long ways, but I would like to practice at 150-200 to make me more confident at the 125 and tighten my group.

I regularly shoot (practice) @ longer ranges out to 200 with a peep sight setup.

This is the setup that I use on the Ultra Lite









The front sight with Williams Fire sight hood...  This little hood makes a big difference in the image you see.  With this combination I feel very comfortable shooting an Elk @ 200 IF the conditions are right.

[whacker1]

I would think that it would be interesting to talk to a gunsmith about custom making a barrel for a Remington or a Knight.

You would be able to change the twist at that point as well as hopefully gain a little more veloicty with the longer barrel.

 If you could extend your Barrel from 26-30 inches.  The profile of the open sights or peep sights, would help you gain the additional accuracy purely by having a greater distance between sights.  I would be interested in a ladder style peep, similar to what the competitive 45-70 guys use.  I would assume that it would take a gun smith to tap and set the rear sight on our modern Remington's / Knights. etc. 

I have thought about making these steps, but haven't gone down that path.  i have also been looking for a hooded front site to match up with my peep on my Remington.  Williams does not make them that will fit my Remington. 

[snowpack]

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8297
What would you guys think of this?  Is .45 cal legal in Idaho?  I don't see any larger calibers.

[idaho guy]

Thanks sabotloader  and others that's what I was looking for good info I appreciate it going to call Jeff for sure will report what I find out for longer range muzzleloading.

[idaho guy]

Snowpack 45 cal is ok but does have to be 50 cal for elk only

[meatwhack]

You can set up a Williams peep site to be adjustable for long range. I think the limiting factor in idaho is the bullet restrictions. If you could use a jacketed sabot then I think there would definitely be some potential but without that I don't have any suggestions, good luck though.

[Stein]

I don't think the rifle is going to be your problem, it's the bullet that I would be worried about at 400 yards.

Hornady SST ML,  has a bc of 0.265 and lists a muzzle velocity of 2325.  Zeroed at 100, the 400 yard holdover would be a stout 60" or five feet.  It would impact with under 750 ft-lbs of energy.

[TopOfTheFoodChain]

I shoot my White Super 91 .451 comfortably out to 300 yards. It has the factory rear Lyman 57sme. Front is a globe with duplex crosshairs. I'm zeroed at 100. I can quickly adjust to be zeroed at 200 or at 300. Windage is easy also. I am shooting 90 grains 3f T7 with a No Excuses 460 grain. I can bust milk jugs at 300 yards and plenty of energy still...

Haven't tried any further than 300, don't think I have quite enough elevation left in the rear adjustment.

[2MANY]

Restarting an oldie here.
Curious what people have come up with for Idaho since back in 2014??

[teanawayslayer]

If your looking for a long range sight gunwerks has the one your looking for. They are on the pricey side but I think it would be what your looking for.

[2MANY]

Nope my buddy has one of the Gunworks guns with a scope.
Just trying to understand what is legal in Idaho.
Pretty sure I can't make that one legal.

[MtnMuley]

He's referring to a sight Gunwerks builds for long range shooting, not a Gunwerks muzzy. It's legal in Idaho as well. I still can't figure out how they came up with their absurd pricing on it though.

[2MANY]

I understand the Gunwerks gun and sight.
I do not understand how to make it legal in Idaho?
Help?

[Alan K]

It's just a glorified peep sight and can go on any gun.

Might be easier for you to explain why you think it is different than any other peep sight and would not be legal in Idaho?

https://www.gunwerks.com/shop/ay-r-e8500-revic-moa-exo-extreme-o-ring-rear-sight-22122#attr=

[jjhunter]

The rifle won’t be legal in Idaho for a few reasons.  1 is that the breach is not exposed to the elements.  Two is ignition type (needs to be percussion or musket cap) and 3, it uses the powerbelt ER bullet which is  full bore, but not an all lead conical.

Idaho rules keep folks from utilizing modern rifle-like muzzys which I am a huge fan of.   Even my Knight bighorn with loose T7, a full bore hunk of pure lead and a percussion cap with factory open sites is highly effective to 250 yards, which to me, is not a short range weapon.   

[Alan K]

The thing is nobody has suggested the gunwerks muzzleloader... Only suggestions that I see were the sight? 2MANY is the only one who keeps bringing up the muzzleloader itself.

[teanawayslayer]

The rifle won’t be legal in Idaho for a few reasons.  1 is that the breach is not exposed to the elements.  Two is ignition type (needs to be percussion or musket cap) and 3, it uses the powerbelt ER bullet which is  full bore, but not an all lead conical.

Idaho rules keep folks from utilizing modern rifle-like muzzys which I am a huge fan of.   Even my Knight bighorn with loose T7, a full bore hunk of pure lead and a percussion cap with factory open sites is highly effective to 250 yards, which to me, is not a short range weapon.   

did you end up buying the gun werks sight? I know you were talking about it.

[2MANY]

2MANY is just trying to learn and is borderline ignorant on the subject.
At this point it's obvious I cannot borrow by buddies new toy.
I get it now and thank you.

Did you put the sight on your gun JJ?

[jjhunter]

I didn’t for a few reasons.

1)  there was a bunch of r&d that went into the design for the specific platform it is used on and I didn’t feel like doing math.   

2). I was shooting very well to 250 with factory sites and with the bullet I was using, I had concerns with energy out past that distance

3). I am just not a fan of peep sights.   Especially in low light or dark background situations.   Additionally, if I jump a buck at close range, I can quickly point and dump them on the run with standard sights.

[2MANY]

Agreed, yup, and yup.

[wadu1]

You could try a Whitworth rifle. The Reb's were shooting Yankie Officers in May 1864 at ranges 800-1000 yards. I don't know if the round is legal in ID.

[2MANY]

Bought a Whitworth .451

I had no idea how much I would have to pay for a used one.

[idaho guy]

 8 years later I am going back down the rabbit hole  I really like muzzleloader season but I don't really like the equipment ha ha.  I have been talking to gunwerks about the Colorado legal muzzy and as everyone stated its definitely  not legal in idaho. I wanted to buy one for a muzzy elk hunt I have in colorado but it was 10k all in with some bullets etc added. Now I am  just trying to take some of there ideas and possibly implement them on a legal muzzy.  I am going to possibly experiment with using the gunwerks sight or others on an Idaho legal muzzleloader. I wont do much till after this season (most likely) but I will report back with any success or failures   

[Harleysboss]

Maybe not what you are looking for but.....check out this youtube channel " Idaho Lewis "and watch some of his videos.  He's getting it done at extreme ranges with a custom side lock TC Hawken wearing globe fronts and Vernier Tang sight. He's not advocating shooting at animals but demonstrating what can be done with the equipment.  Most definitely a legal in Idaho setup! I've shot with him before, He's 100% legit. Many don't believe that it can be done but it can and does happen. There are old school BP shooting matches all over this country and abroad. 

[idaho guy]

Maybe not what you are looking for but.....check out this youtube channel " Idaho Lewis "and watch some of his videos.  He's getting it done at extreme ranges with a custom side lock TC Hawken wearing globe fronts and Vernier Tang sight. He's not advocating shooting at animals but demonstrating what can be done with the equipment.  Most definitely a legal in Idaho setup! I've shot with him before, He's 100% legit. Many don't believe that it can be done but it can and does happen. There are old school BP shooting matches all over this country and abroad.

 

Good tip thanks!

[hunter399]

My biggest question is.
Why don't they make a 30 caliber muzzle loader.
That will take a huge powder charge.
With some kind of all copper hollow point bullet that is heavy 220 or 250 grain ,with good B.C.
Why are all small caliber muzzy rifles for small game.

Like the 300 win mag of muzzle loader.

If I built one,would you buy it.

Oh ya then they might combine muzzy and rifle season.
We don't want that ,do we,I don't really know.🤔🤷

[sixgun_symphony]

You clowns really think that putting a bolt action onto a muzzleloader and dressing it up like a modern centerfire rifle is going to make it more accurate at distance. Most of those things are shooting pistol weight bullets. 

 What you really need is to look at the barrel, the bullet, and the sights.

 Think of heavy bullets, 400 to 500 grains weight on a .45 caliber rifle and a fast twist to stabilize it. Rice muzzle loading barrel company has what you need. As for sights, consider the FP Hawken rear sight and a hooded target globe sight with inserts from Williams gun sight company.

[Magnum_Willys]

You clowns really think that putting a bolt action onto a muzzleloader and dressing it up like a modern centerfire rifle is going to make it more accurate at distance. Most of those things are shooting pistol weight bullets. 

 What you really need is to look at the barrel, the bullet, and the sights.

 Think of heavy bullets, 400 to 500 grains weight on a .45 caliber rifle and a fast twist to stabilize it. Rice muzzle loading barrel company has what you need. As for sights, consider the FP Hawken rear sight and a hooded target globe sight with inserts from Williams gun sight company.

See CVA Paramount .40 Cal 225 Gr @ 2850.  Shoots 1.5 moa past 400 yards all day with good optics.   

[85yota]

Isn't the issue with the powder, in that u can't get enough of it to burn fast enough before the bullets gone

[sixgun_symphony]

You clowns really think that putting a bolt action onto a muzzleloader and dressing it up like a modern centerfire rifle is going to make it more accurate at distance. Most of those things are shooting pistol weight bullets. 

 What you really need is to look at the barrel, the bullet, and the sights.

 Think of heavy bullets, 400 to 500 grains weight on a .45 caliber rifle and a fast twist to stabilize it. Rice muzzle loading barrel company has what you need. As for sights, consider the FP Hawken rear sight and a hooded target globe sight with inserts from Williams gun sight company.

See CVA Paramount .40 Cal 225 Gr @ 2850.  Shoots 1.5 moa past 400 yards all day with good optics.

 I read some articles online and am seeing the usual marketing of "muzzleloader vs rifle" rather than "muzzleloading rifle vs centerfire rifle", as if the definition of rifle has nothing to do with the spiral grooves in the barrel and everything to do with a centerfire brass cartridge. I find that annoying, as the target audience are simply hunters with little knowledge or interest in firearms. I see the faux bolt action on modern inlines and am reminded of P.T. Barnum's quote "There is a sucker born every minute" as the aesthetics are meant to attract modern hunters by keeping them in their comfort zone.

 I am seeing impressive muzzle velocities of the CVA Paramount, but I am not finding downrange velocities in the search results that I am getting. Most of the modern inline muzzle loading rifles are designed to shoot pistol weight bullets, and velocities drop down to that of handguns downrange.

 Better to go with heavy bullets. There certainly will be more trajectory, that is what the marksman's data book is for. Once you know where to set the elevation for a given range on a rear sight then one is putting a 400gr wt to 500gr wt bullet onto the target.

[Scruffy]

They shot long distances in the civil war effectively to 500 yds using a 58 cal minnie ball but could be deadly at even longer ranges.  With that being said I am sure with today's technology you could get to that range effectively.  Most rifles used for that range were usually the long guns not the short barrel bp rifles have today.  They also used peep sights a lot which are a lot more accurate than your basic open sights.  I am sure if you are using an F loose powder vs the Pyrodex pellets it would burn faster and today's powder is probably better than they had back in the civil war.

[sixgun_symphony]

Is there anyone that makes long range muzzleloaders that would be legal in idaho? we have to have exposed ignintion system when ready to fire -no 209 primers/sabots and must use open sights.When I say long range I probably mean medium but long for a muzzleloader-400 yards     Maybe something with a ladder type peep sight.   

Check out the videos by Idaho Lewis on Youtube to learn about long range muzzle loading rifles and loads.

[/youtube]