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Author Topic: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas  (Read 316 times)

Offline pianoman9701

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1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« on: December 28, 2017, 10:03:48 AM »
This sounds like a wolf thread but it isn't. So, in 1997, a couple from MT sued the USFWS to protect indigenous wolves by removing the then already released Canadian grey wolves. They initially won, based on the fact that the USFWS lied when they testified that no wolves remained in the northern Rockies. Indigenous timber wolves were documented in WY, MT, ID, and WA and the USFWS knew all about them. The problem is that the larger Canadian grey wolves would either kill or breed the timber wolves out of existence. The couple won the suit but it was immediately overturned by a stacked court. The reason it was overturned was that the judge said that the ESA didn't necessarily protect subspecies.

Fast forward to today. In SW WA and NW OR, the Dusky is a protected species by the ESA. Shooting one will earn you a large fine and possible loss of hunting privileges. Will other geese populations continue to grow out of control and are a major menace to crops, the restrictions maintained on the Dusky prevent hunters from shooting any Canada goose they can. As a result, limits are rare and certainly, manyu will not report the Duskies they shoot.

It's my opinion that a challenge could be made to the USFWS to delist the Dusky based on it's own argument supporting the release of Canadian wolves, jeopardizing the future of the timber wolves. Subspecies are not necessarily protected by the ESA. I'm getting ready to write a letter to the USFWS. Any thoughts on this?
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 10:33:25 AM »
Touché
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 10:49:33 AM »
I've thought that some of the fish policy was reverse of wolf policy too.  They try to protect each and every subspecies of steelhead and salmon, not allowing a new, more general fish.  In the case of wolves, like you say P-man, they ignore all the subspecies and favor one type of wolf to replace them all.  Basically, whatever gets control of the most amount of land I guess.

Offline Boss .300 winmag

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 11:24:17 AM »
 :tup:
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Offline olyguy79

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 11:36:18 AM »
Dusky geese aren't listed under the ESA in WA..

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Offline bigtex

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 11:38:49 AM »
Dusky geese aren't listed under the ESA in WA..

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:yeah:

https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp0/reports/species-listed-by-state-report?state=WA&status=listed

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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 11:50:08 AM »
If they're not listed on the ESA, then why does USFWS work with ODFW and WDFW to protect them? And, isn't it causing more harm than good?
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline bigtex

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 11:55:06 AM »
If they're not listed on the ESA, then why does USFWS work with ODFW and WDFW to protect them? And, isn't it causing more harm than good?
They're a migratory bird (protected under the MBTA like all migratory birds, thus USFWS involvement) and their numbers have long been in decline.

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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 12:05:11 PM »
If they're not listed on the ESA, then why does USFWS work with ODFW and WDFW to protect them? And, isn't it causing more harm than good?
They're a migratory bird (protected under the MBTA like all migratory birds, thus USFWS involvement) and their numbers have long been in decline.

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Thanks BT. Many of us know the story about how nature would've ended the dusky and man decided to play God and save it. It's too bad it's not listed on the ESA. I would've loved to have stuck the USFWS's own defense of wolves in their face with this doomed bird which interbreeds and has no instinct to keep from getting shot. Saving this goose "flies" in the face of reason and natural selection.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Curly

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 01:03:33 PM »
The area I have been hunting ducks/geese has Dusky geese.  I had to take and identification class and pay a fee for the endorsement.  I am now supposedly able to tell the difference between several subspecies, but I've found it frustrating in the field to identify the geese. 

I haven't fired a shot yet at a goose because I'm scared to accidentally shoot a Dusky.  They are going to have to come right into the dekes before I'm comfortable in my ID ability (unless they are cacklers). 

The bio that checked my brother's buddy even had a hard time identifying the subspecies that he had shot.  She had to measure the beak and she determined that if it was a millimeter different it would have been considered a Dusky.   :o 

The way I see it, when the Dusky habitat changes for the better the sub-species will rebound and do better.  I don't think hunters would have that much of an effect on the numbers if some of them are shot. :dunno:  Oh well, I guess I just need to find better goose spots and see if I can get them feet down in the decoys........but it is a little frustrating.
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 02:29:49 PM »
The area I have been hunting ducks/geese has Dusky geese.  I had to take and identification class and pay a fee for the endorsement.  I am now supposedly able to tell the difference between several subspecies, but I've found it frustrating in the field to identify the geese. 

I haven't fired a shot yet at a goose because I'm scared to accidentally shoot a Dusky.  They are going to have to come right into the dekes before I'm comfortable in my ID ability (unless they are cacklers). 

The bio that checked my brother's buddy even had a hard time identifying the subspecies that he had shot.  She had to measure the beak and she determined that if it was a millimeter different it would have been considered a Dusky.   :o 

The way I see it, when the Dusky habitat changes for the better the sub-species will rebound and do better.  I don't think hunters would have that much of an effect on the numbers if some of them are shot. :dunno:  Oh well, I guess I just need to find better goose spots and see if I can get them feet down in the decoys........but it is a little frustrating.

Their habitat was destroyed by an earthquake. They're sluts and gander *censored*s. And, they have no fear of humans. Nature would have killed them or bred them out of existence. We shouldn't even be paying attention to them...but we are.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Curly

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 02:31:29 PM »
I agree.
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Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: 1997 Ruling on ESA Listing May Open Door to Shoot DuskY Canadas
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 04:32:34 PM »
USFWS gets to decide what constitutes an Evolutionarily Significant Unit (ESU) or Distinct Population Segment (DPS) when listing a portion of a species under ESA (or NOAA/NMFS in the case of saltwater and anadromous fishes, marine mammals and other ocean life).  In the case of the wolf releases in the Northern Rockies, USFWS decided that any wolves present in WY, ID and MT did not constitute an ESU or DPS, because there were no long-term, self-sustaining viable populations of the Rocky Mountain gray wolf, Canis lupus irremotus.  In the case of Copper River Delta nesting Canada geese, they did, though they aren't ESA listed; USFWS has delegated treaty authority over migratory birds and can close or restrict hunting as they see fit, and the states have to devise rules to comply. 


As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

 

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