Isle Royale Wolf Transfer - Emergency Action

[SuperX]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

   Exactly, the hypocrisy is deafening...

I agree that interbreeding will make the sub species disappear, but that's a distinction without a difference.  There haven't been more than a small inbred handful of smaller less violent northern rocky wolves for almost 100 years.  How do we build it up if we could even identify it in the first place.  So while I agree with you both on the lunacy of "wild steelhead" or salmon in this day and age, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical about it.  I have no agenda except boredom   This story was about my home area.

[bearpaw]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

   Exactly, the hypocrisy is deafening...

I agree that interbreeding will make the sub species disappear, but that's a distinction without a difference.  There haven't been more than a small inbred handful of smaller less violent northern rocky wolves for almost 100 years.  How do we build it up if we could even identify it in the first place.  So while I agree with you both on the lunacy of "wild steelhead" or salmon in this day and age, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical about it.  I have no agenda except boredom   This story was about my home area.

We didn't have to import wolves from up north, they were already migrating in from lower BC and Alberta naturally. Eniro whackos planted larger northern wolves!

[SuperX]

Species are different than subspecies or are you saying hatchery salmon are the same as wild salmon genetically?

Your analogy just made Bearpaw’s case.

Can you tell a wild salmon from a hatchery fish without a DNA sample? I seriously doubt it in Washington. They have been releasing unclipped hatchery fish for decades with the wild salmon.
If they do the same with wolves nothing will stop the interbreeding and it would take a DNA sample to determine which is pure sub species or hybrid combination. And after a few generations what do you have?

   Exactly, the hypocrisy is deafening...

I agree that interbreeding will make the sub species disappear, but that's a distinction without a difference.  There haven't been more than a small inbred handful of smaller less violent northern rocky wolves for almost 100 years.  How do we build it up if we could even identify it in the first place.  So while I agree with you both on the lunacy of "wild steelhead" or salmon in this day and age, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical about it.  I have no agenda except boredom   This story was about my home area.

We didn't have to import wolves from up north, they were already migrating in from lower BC and Alberta naturally. Enviro whackos planted larger northern wolves!

Agree.  If wolves show up, I'm OK that they exist, and if they are causing a problem, I insist they be hunted and managed same as game animals, but I see no reason they need to be imported. 

There's no endangerment of wolves in north america, there's just people who think there is because they think the US is the same thing as North America.  If EVERY wolf in america is really just the same species of wolf, optimized for their local environment to be true, but the same genetically as those that are out of control in Canada and Alaska, then HOW can they be considered endangered?  It follows, that if they aren't really endangered in NA, then WHY import them?

[SuperX]

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/science-and-nature/4567499-wolf-leaves-isle-royale-across-ice

hehe

[bearpaw]

It's a park, if they don't want to let hunters solve the moose over population problem, then they should let mature take it's course!

[SuperX]

It's a park, if they don't want to let hunters solve the moose over population problem, then they should let mature take it's course!

In MN moose is a OIL draw, one of the only 2 draws I can remember in the whole state - the other is for one bull elk out of the NW herd that they nurture along.  Isle Royale may be one of the spots you can draw to hunt, if they ever recover the moose population enough to have draws again.

[jackelope]

It's a park, if they don't want to let hunters solve the moose over population problem, then they should let mature take it's course!

In MN moose is a OIL draw, one of the only 2 draws I can remember in the whole state - the other is for one bull elk out of the NW herd that they nurture along.  Isle Royale may be one of the spots you can draw to hunt, if they ever recover the moose population enough to have draws again.

Over the winter of 2016-2017, surveys indicated 1600 moose on the island.  Scientists said the population could double over the next 3-4 years. They indicated a concern for the health of the trees in the forest due to so many moose and indicated a concern for moose starving to death. When is the population recovered enough to hunt them? Oh and it’s a national park. Look at the mountain goats on the OP. A literal act of congress to hunt them didn’t happen.

The googler gave me my info.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/outdoors/2017/04/18/moose-population-isle-royale/100592498/

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I noted in that story also, that the beaver population is reaching an all time high. This could also be part of the reason the moose population is growing. Beaver and Moose have a mutualistic relationship.

https://northernwoodlands.org/outside_story/article/where-beaver-lead-moose-follow

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I agree that interbreeding will make the sub species disappear, but that's a distinction without a difference.  There haven't been more than a small inbred handful of smaller less violent northern rocky wolves for almost 100 years.  How do we build it up if we could even identify it in the first place.  So while I agree with you both on the lunacy of "wild steelhead" or salmon in this day and age, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical about it.  I have no agenda except boredom   This story was about my home area.

Not necessarily. If the original wolves were smaller and "less violent" there was a genetic reason for this. If interbreeding occurred, those genetic traits will still be in the gene pool and if the genetic reason still exists, those genes may eventually rise up again as the ones that make the animals most successful at surviving. For example, for the most part, animals of the same species in North America are smaller in body mass the further south you go. Has nothing to do with feed and everything to do with retaining heat in cold northern climes and being able to cool off in southern climes. A good example is Whitetail deer. Northern Whitetails tend to be much larger bodied than southern Whitetails.  Body mass helps keep you warm in long cold winters.  As for aggressiveness, that tends to come from how hard an animal has to work for it's food. Take grizzlies for example. In Alaska, interior grizzlies don't have the food sources that the coastal grizzlies, or Brownies, have. Genetically, they are the same bear. But the coastal bears have massive salmon runs to feed on. The interior bears are always on the move looking for food. And while it's possible to have a run in with a coastal Brownie that turns out badly, the interior brownies are more likely to hunt you down just to eat you. They are much more aggressive than a coastal brownie.

As for wolves being smaller than the transplanted ones, you must be forgetting the Great Plains Wolf, also called the Buffalo Wolf. They were wiped out in the early 1900s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_wolf

[SuperX]

It's a park, if they don't want to let hunters solve the moose over population problem, then they should let mature take it's course!

In MN moose is a OIL draw, one of the only 2 draws I can remember in the whole state - the other is for one bull elk out of the NW herd that they nurture along.  Isle Royale may be one of the spots you can draw to hunt, if they ever recover the moose population enough to have draws again.

Over the winter of 2016-2017, surveys indicated 1600 moose on the island.  Scientists said the population could double over the next 3-4 years. They indicated a concern for the health of the trees in the forest due to so many moose and indicated a concern for moose starving to death. When is the population recovered enough to hunt them? Oh and it’s a national park. Look at the mountain goats on the OP. A literal act of congress to hunt them didn’t happen.

The googler gave me my info.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/outdoors/2017/04/18/moose-population-isle-royale/100592498/

If they could move the moose and "transplant" them in to the mainland they would be better off than trying to import wolves to do it for them, especially when they can just walk to shore on the ice.  While there are tons of moose on the island, the state herd has collapsed dramatically over the past 10-15 years.  According to the numbers you posted and the 2018 areal survey estimations (90% confidence) of NE Minnesota, the island holds almost as many moose as the whole arrowhead region. 

For some reason IR is treated delicately when it comes to game management, like maybe the year round residents don't allow it?  I don't recall hearing of anyone hunting the island for deer or moose, they are very tame up there, they only see tourists as a rule.

[JimmyHoffa]

I thought I heard a few years ago that the prediction was the wolves would starve to death because the moose have liver fluke and the population was crashing. 

[SuperX]

I thought I heard a few years ago that the prediction was the wolves would starve to death because the moose have liver fluke and the population was crashing.

something(s) is killing the moose, there are a million theories from flukes to ticks to wolves to weather.  the cow/calf ratio is always below 50% with a calf, usually in the 30's.