243 grouping questions

[Lokaybinnity]

So i have a winchester model 70 ranger youth model 243. i want to give it to my 12 year old to start hunting with it. i got it when i was 15 im now 39, so its its got some years under its belt. i wouldnt think the round count thru it is to many to burn out the barrell and i was under the impression that they are not known for being a barrell burner. it was shot for mostly sighting it in and hunting when needed. the problem im having is the 3 shot grouping im getting with it is about 3 to 3.5 inches if not more. it used to be a tack driver sub 1 inch groups. i do use factory ammo. i noticed it couple years ago when i would bring it out just to see if it is on paper still. i checked scope and rings both leupold. and its always cleaned after being shot or before if its been in the safe for awhile. ive  just about used every ammo thru it to see if it was ammo related and nothing cant get it tighter than 3 inches.  What do you guys think the problem is, or what can i do to get it back to being a tack driver like it used to be. thanks for your help.

[7mmfan]

Have you ever done a thorough copper fouling removal? I have a 7 mag that is similar age and was always a fantastic shooter. Last year it went in the toilet for no apparent reason. I had never done a copper fouling removal. I did a very thorough scrub and it brought the accuracy right back.

[Angry Perch]

By "checked the scope and rings", I assume just checked to see if tight? If you have a spare scope around, you could throw it on and quickly eliminate that as a problem if a good cleaning doesn't solve it.

[Wanttohuntmore]

Also are you using the same factory ammo?  Try some others.   I've noticed variances.  Like others said,  also pull the scope and try another,  making sure to re tighten base and rings and using blue lock tite.

[Igor]

Have you ever done a thorough copper fouling removal? I have a 7 mag that is similar age and was always a fantastic shooter. Last year it went in the toilet for no apparent reason. I had never done a copper fouling removal. I did a very thorough scrub and it brought the accuracy right back.

Had the same issue with my Winchester Model 70 Featherweight......the groups just gradually got bigger over the years with the same ammo.  Cleaned it every year, which did nothing to remove the copper fouling.  Once I removed the copper fouling the groups tightened right back up.

[rainshadow1]

24yo? Wood stock? Check the barrel contact with the stock. Wood moves over the years. May need to float it.

[thinkingman]

By "checked the scope and rings", I assume just checked to see if tight? If you have a spare scope around, you could throw it on and quickly eliminate that as a problem if a good cleaning doesn't solve it.

As soon as I read the thread, I was guessing Leupold.
The scope would be my first thought for groups growing but copper fouling or a ding in the crown would be my second.
Start with cleaning the bore.

[Angry Perch]

By "checked the scope and rings", I assume just checked to see if tight? If you have a spare scope around, you could throw it on and quickly eliminate that as a problem if a good cleaning doesn't solve it.

As soon as I read the thread, I was guessing Leupold.
The scope would be my first thought for groups growing but copper fouling or a ding in the crown would be my second.
Start with cleaning the bore.

Let me guess. Leupolds are junk?

[Bill W]

failure rate of Leupold scopes is extremely low.  I'd say look elsewheres on the gun for issues.  Mounts, bedding, fouling, etc.

[Karl Blanchard]

As others have said, clean it for copper and then proceed from there. Very good odds that is your culprit.  Id be very surprised if it was a scope issue. Newer Leupold with tactical or cds turrets are well known for having tracking issues but holding a zero, especially on older leupold models is definitely not the norm.

[Lokaybinnity]

thanks for the answers i think im going to start with the copper fouling. how do i go about doing that. do i just scrub the crap out of it with a brush or is there a cleaner other than hoppes, or is hoppes what i use, and just let is set longer in the barrell before the dry patch.

[headshot5]

Get yourself some copper remover.  Something like "wipe out", or "sweets  copper remover".  There are quite a few different brands that will do the same work.   Be aware that some of the removers will cause corrosion of your barrel if left in there for too long.

[Bill W]

Sweets is what I used to use.  One tip I'd pass on if you use this swab the bore dry after using this. Don't leave it wet with Sweets in it.

[BULLBLASTER]

I use wipe out products. Patches normally do it but a plastic brush can work well also.

[Igor]

thanks for the answers i think im going to start with the copper fouling. how do i go about doing that. do i just scrub the crap out of it with a brush or is there a cleaner other than hoppes, or is hoppes what i use, and just let is set longer in the barrell before the dry patch.

I use Barnes CR-10.  It is amazing how well it works at removing copper-fouling, but you need to be very religious about following the instructions regarding its use.  I also clean the bore with Hoppes #9 afterwards to make sure none of the Barnes remains.  The Barnes contains ammonia which should be removed completely.  The final step should be running a patch through the bore and applying a light coating of a good gun oil.

[7mmfan]

There are numerous copper removal products out there. The one consistent feature of all of them, especially if you've never done it, is that it will take time, and multiple treatments probably. I did 3 full copper removal treatments on my 7 mag before my patches came out clean. That's what 20 years of shooting will accumulate in there.

I use the Boretech stuff. They're instructions are easy to follow, and it worked well. Have lots of patches on hand, and a vinyl bore brush. A gun vice or some way to secure your rifle so you can just run patches through without handling the rifle is highly suggested.

https://www.boretech.com/categories/gun-cleaners/bore-cleaners

[Lokaybinnity]

thanks for the help guys. appreciate it. 

[Karl Blanchard]

Another vote for wipe out here

[b23]

Also maybe consider purchasing a Teslong borescope.  They're certainly not required and for some the first few times you use one can cause panic attacks because they show how bad most factory barrels look, doesn't mean they still can't shoot well though, but are relatively inexpensive, about $50 and easily hookup to any laptop.  They make one that works with an Iphone/Ipad too.

They'll give you a good view of how it looks on the inside and how clean you're actually getting things.  Often we think these things are perfectly clean and down to bare metal but you run a borescope in there to find out ohhh not so much.  A borescope can help identify other issues like throat erosion, carbon rings, and tooling marks.

Maybe not something most people will use all that much but with the Teslong borescope not only being as affordable as they are but also producing a very good image quality they're a useful tool to have and can help take the guess work out of things but like I said don't be surprised if the first time you use one your reaction is  when looking at factory barrels for the first time that's a pretty standard response.

[Stein]

There are numerous copper removal products out there. The one consistent feature of all of them, especially if you've never done it, is that it will take time, and multiple treatments probably. I did 3 full copper removal treatments on my 7 mag before my patches came out clean. That's what 20 years of shooting will accumulate in there.

I use the Boretech stuff. They're instructions are easy to follow, and it worked well. Have lots of patches on hand, and a vinyl bore brush. A gun vice or some way to secure your rifle so you can just run patches through without handling the rifle is highly suggested.

https://www.boretech.com/categories/gun-cleaners/bore-cleaners

Ventilation and nitrile gloves too, copper remover is some pretty nasty smelling stuff.  I've used several different kinds and they all seem to work about the same.  Apply, sit, scrub, apply, sit, scrub just like 7mm said.

[Magnum_Willys]

don't be surprised if the first time you use one your reaction is  when looking at factory barrels for the first time that's a pretty standard response.

I have a 40 year old vanguard 300 win mag that the inside of the barrel looks like the inside of an old sewer pipe thru the teslong but it will shoot 3" groups at 500 yards with factory 215 bergers.  go figure ?

[b23]

don't be surprised if the first time you use one your reaction is  when looking at factory barrels for the first time that's a pretty standard response.

I have a 40 year old vanguard 300 win mag that the inside of the barrel looks like the inside of an old sewer pipe thru the teslong but it will shoot 3" groups at 500 yards with factory 215 bergers.  go figure ?

Oh I know what you mean.  I kept the barrel off of my Rem 700 VSSF 223 it looks beyond terrible and is laughable it's so bad but that thing would sit and stack up 40gr Nosler BT pushed by Benchmark until you were bored pulling the trigger when I pulled the barrel and turned it into to something else.  It was still shooting so well I figured I could get a few bucks for the barrel but once I borescoped it and saw how bad it was that was the end of that idea.

[jasnt]

Plus one on the teslong and yes it’s normal to see tons of cracks and the bore looking like charcoal.  Let the accuracy tell you when your barrel is toast

[2labs]

24yo? Wood stock? Check the barrel contact with the stock. Wood moves over the years. May need to float it.

This,, one of my favorite rifles model 70 carbine..243. Wood stock. Wouldn't group.
Dollar bill test and then a deep socket wrapped in sand paper fixed it! Remember to refinish/ seal any raw wood.