2022 Ford Lightning Discussion

[kselkhunter]

I do not understand this either.  Why didn't they standardize the charging stations?  Seems like a no brainer to me.
[/quote]

There are standards for charging stations.  Those standards are just currently slower than a Tesla proprietary charging system.   The next gen charging standards are getting closer to the speed of a Tesla charger, but still not quite as fast....and all those charging companies now have to go update their charging stations to the next faster standard.  Tesla offered to license their charging IP to anybody that wanted it....but nobody really took them up on the offer.  I think the challenge is it's pointless if Tesla also didn't offer a reasonable cost option to use their SuperCharger stations to other car manufacturers (I don't know what Tesla was offering in that license).   Tesla has already been caught by multiple competitors now in terms of the EV car technology itself: range, features, etc..  Tesla's strength is in their fast chargers and their extensive nationwide supercharging network.   

2022 is a big year for rollouts of competitive EV solutions, with multiple companies now offering Tesla's range.   

[Stein]

EV manufacturers want to sell their proprietary connectors and chargers.  There are standards and it's possible, but there will always be companies that choose a Lightning connector over a micro USB for example.

They can also sell you the adapter cable so you can charge at other EV charging sites.

I think once EV charging becomes commercially viable you will see a big push for more compatibility.

[Angry Perch]

It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.

With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity.  Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.

Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?

[Stein]

It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.

With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity.  Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.

Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?

Not really.  It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready".  It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.

When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel.  The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together.  Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer.  Took them all of 15 minutes.

The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer?  Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.

[baker5150]

It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.

With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity.  Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.

Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?

Not really.  It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready".  It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.

When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel.  The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together.  Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer.  Took them all of 15 minutes.

The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer?  Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.

 

We aren't seeing builders want to add EV options.   Solar communities seam to be the cool new thing.

I see EV stations optioning an Energy Credit in the near future.  Maybe 1/2 a point.  That'll get builders to start adding them in.

[kselkhunter]

Multiple car companies will have 300 mile range vehicles shipping in 2022.  Tesla has their supercharger network, with the latest V3 update allowing for 1000 miles of range replenishment per hour.  The standard DC fast chargers (fastest current standard option) currently deployed can do 178 miles range replenishment per hour.   So stopping to top up a Tesla at a V3 supercharger for 250 miles is 15 minutes, compared to 1 hour 24 minutes on a DC fast charger.  The new DC fast charger standard can do up to 500-800 miles range per hour replenishment (depending on implementation).....cutting that charge time for 250 miles of range replenishment down to 18-30 minutes.....so once those latest standard chargers get deployed then all the other car companies can at least get close to Tesla in terms of charge time.   


The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc.  I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions.  Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways.   Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.   

[KFhunter]

The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network.  Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S.   Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station.   Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy.  But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out.  I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.

I do not understand this either.  Why didn't they standardize the charging stations?  Seems like a no brainer to me.

It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.

[Igor]

The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network.  Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S.   Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station.   Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy.  But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out.  I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.

I do not understand this either.  Why didn't they standardize the charging stations?  Seems like a no brainer to me.

It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.

Did I miss your explanation on why the Ford Lightning is destined to be a "flop" ?

[KFhunter]

No, I just haven't answered you yet.

[Igor]

No, I just haven't answered you yet.

OK, thanks.  It just seems to me that Ford is on the right track (or is it right truck), and I find all of these discussions interesting, and educating.  I need all the help I can get.

[Stein]

Multiple car companies will have 300 mile range vehicles shipping in 2022.  Tesla has their supercharger network, with the latest V3 update allowing for 1000 miles of range replenishment per hour.  The standard DC fast chargers (fastest current standard option) currently deployed can do 178 miles range replenishment per hour.   So stopping to top up a Tesla at a V3 supercharger for 250 miles is 15 minutes, compared to 1 hour 24 minutes on a DC fast charger.  The new DC fast charger standard can do up to 500-800 miles range per hour replenishment (depending on implementation).....cutting that charge time for 250 miles of range replenishment down to 18-30 minutes.....so once those latest standard chargers get deployed then all the other car companies can at least get close to Tesla in terms of charge time.   


The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc.  I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions.  Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways.   Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.

That's what kept us from picking up a Tesla, it would be a 3-4 stopper to get to my family in MT and one of the stops was 45 minutes.  I one stop it in the truck, I would be willing to do 2, but 3 or more is just too much.  It would be great around town, but not good on road trips, so it wasn't worth it.

I think in a year or two that will have changed and we'll probably pick one up when you can get one for $35k that can two stop it to MT.

An EV and a gas truck would be the perfect combination for our family to do anything we want.

[KFhunter]

I'm also looking at it through my lens living rural and working my trucks.

Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.

The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.


Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.

Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi

I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...

This is a Ford truck.

The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership

It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.

[Stein]

I'm also looking at it through my lens living rural and working my trucks.

Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.

The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.


Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.

Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi

I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...

This is a Ford truck.

The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership

It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.

What you are saying is largely true, but how many F-150's are just driven around town for 99.9% of their lives?  Probably a very sizeable chunk.  There are also probably minivan and SUV guys that will be swayed into a truck.

It will sell for sure.  Let's face it, the people that pull a 6,000 pound trailer up into the mountains for two weeks is not a significant portion of the truck market.  That's why Ford isn't going the GM all electric route.  Sell EVs to people that they fit and sell gas and diesel to the others.  Everyone is happy.

I bought my truck from the original owner that sold it because it was too big and he was afraid to switch it into 4WD.  I think that is much more common than many think.

[KFhunter]

There's still the charging hurdles and lack of infrastructure, and the stigma of Ford vs Tesla. 

I really think that stigma will play a big role in the demise of the lightning. 

With the Tesla it was: "I'll make this work" and Tesla owners got to be all cool and trendy. 

With Ford it'll be like:  "this isn't working!" and get all mad and sell it.

If Ford is smart they'll really vet the potential buyers to make sure the vehicles are going to homes with the means to install a charger and the owners aren't just plunking cash on a vogue product not knowing what they're getting into and the modifications required.

I also think there's going to be a new administration that will end a great deal of these incentives to go all electric and "end big oil"


I could even see an environmental push to "stop the strip mines!" raping the earth of precious metals.

[Stein]

We'll see.  My money is on people buying them, driving it 15 miles to work, 15 miles back, plugging it in overnight and thinking it's awesome.  You can charge them anywhere you have a 15A receptacle, it's just a question of time.  No different than any other EV.

Another benefit is to knock the 3.5L guys down a rung, they are getting pretty smug with that acceleration and torque.