Results of 3 point or better rule

[Loup Loup]

This pic shows what WDFW big game bios are selecting for with three point or better standard.

[3nails]

This pic shows what WDFW big game bios are selecting for with three point or better standard.

The coon tail is bringing back good memories of one I had 

[HunterStrait]

Artificial selective evolution. Its awful.

Seen too many big mature 2x2 bucks running around. If they're not going to get any hunting pressure, they're going to continue passing on those bad genetics.

[Loup Loup]

Yea, geez, what do you do? Ha ha could be worse I guess.

[Loup Loup]

HunterStrait: exactly. This is the outcome I predicted when they first started three point or better.

[Birdguy]

Those moose paddles are a spectacular distraction to your point of the post. Love a better look at them!

As for the deer I think a lot of us saw that coming but it sure is validation of what we are seeing in the woods as well. That is a great bit of work you posted. Love it and thank you.

[highcountry_hunter]

Question, and I’m not being argumentative. What is a better solution? We already have enough people shooting the first legal 2x2 with a 1 1/32” eyeguard on one side. In 101 there have been multiple cases of dumped 2 points found and left to rot so there’s no shortage of guys willing to shoot 1 1/2 year old muley bucks.

Seems like we’ve gotta have some sort of minimum or nothing will ever reach maturity

[buglebuster]

Darn those young 1.5 year old 2pts 😒

[jrebel]

We saw a pile of clean 2x2’s this year on my late hunt.  Some we slept image to be 4-8 years old old bucks.  One was king of the hill and had a body like a moose.  We also saw some nice big bucks with 3 or more points….but it was a 1:1 ratio of nice bucks to big 2’s. 

[Jonathan_S]

Yea, geez, what do you do? Ha ha could be worse I guess.

Limited tags

[boneaddict]

Remove the late buck tags and make everything draw only is an alternative.

[zwickeyman]

Remove the late buck tags and make everything draw only is an alternative.

 :yeah:Unfortunately this is spot on

[Loup Loup]

Jonathon sorry that comment of mine was in answer to 3 nails coon tail comment.

[Loup Loup]

Here’s how it used to work, back when we had mule deer.
Would be a deer camp of 4-5 hunters. Two would shoot spikes or two points the first couple days. They’d be happy with that. Success. Then everybody would be done hunting and go home. At the same time you could take a kid or old timer out and find them a spike or two point opening weekend.
Now same camp of hunters hunts and hunts and hunts. They stay for the whole season. Because they’re out so long pounding the woods they kill one or maybe two mature bucks. If they would have left early like back in the day those breeders would have survived again. When the whole camp doesn’t get anything they say what fun they had just hunting. The old timers quit buying tags (me now) and the kids lose interest and don’t go out.
On the deer side. So now we’ve got fewer mature bucks. Who are more experienced breeders, genetically superior to a buck that was born a spike or smooth horn two point, and are more adept at eluding predators.
We’ve got a preponerance of inferior spikes and smooth horn two points that will always either be spikes or two points, or throw weak middlin horns.
We’ve got young bucks not being chased off does by mature bucks. So young bucks are falling off does, and pestering them, making the does burn more energy trying to keep them off. Weve got late fawns being born because the doe didn’t get bred the first cycle. Late fawns die. We’ve got inferior breeding stock producing inferior spike and smooth horn two points until the deer are gone.
Not everyone wants big antlers. But I’ve always said if you want to grow big horns, every spike or smooth horn 2 point should be knocked in the head the day it’s born. Or at least the first year it throws horns.

[furbearer365]

I would drop it a 2 point minimum, at least for Muleys. Whitetails grow more point quickly so the 3 point would still be ok. But I believe the same is happening for elk, especially the Westside. Not enough "good" branch antlered bulls to keep a herd healthy.  And we are asking spikes to maintain the herd.

[Loup Loup]

Furbearer365: Why would you protect a spike? Could even be a lifelong spike. Which would get him a lifelong pass from hunters.
One of the biggest bodied bucks we ever got was back when you could shoot any buck. I got Dad on a spike opening morning. He made a great shot with my rifle.
It had a big mature size body and a white face Roman nose old buck. It had 12” long spikes.
Later I asked dad where those horns were as I wanted them as a curiosity. He had buried the head in the garden already.

[ghosthunter]

Here’s how it used to work, back when we had mule deer.
Would be a deer camp of 4-5 hunters. Two would shoot spikes or two points the first couple days. They’d be happy with that. Success. Then everybody would be done hunting and go home. At the same time you could take a kid or old timer out and find them a spike or two point opening weekend.
Now same camp of hunters hunts and hunts and hunts. They stay for the whole season. Because they’re out so long pounding the woods they kill one or maybe two mature bucks. If they would have left early like back in the day those breeders would have survived again. When the whole camp doesn’t get anything they say what fun they had just hunting. The old timers quit buying tags (me now) and the kids lose interest and don’t go out.
On the deer side. So now we’ve got fewer mature bucks. Who are more experienced breeders, genetically superior to a buck that was born a spike or smooth horn two point, and are more adept at eluding predators.
We’ve got a preponerance of inferior spikes and smooth horn two points that will always either be spikes or two points, or throw weak middlin horns.
We’ve got young bucks not being chased off does by mature bucks. So young bucks are falling off does, and pestering them, making the does burn more energy trying to keep them off. Weve got late fawns being born because the doe didn’t get bred the first cycle. Late fawns die. We’ve got inferior breeding stock producing inferior spike and smooth horn two points until the deer are gone.
Not everyone wants big antlers. But I’ve always said if you want to grow big horns, every spike or smooth horn 2 point should be knocked in the head the day it’s born. Or at least the first year it throws horns.

Bingo


I have been in this game a long time. Started at 10 and now 74.

Loop has it right on. Most hunters could care less about anther points. Everyone in my group which ranges from six -  20 hunters would be happy with a spike. And let the bigger ones live.  Seems like older bigger bucks would be better breeders.

You have no further to look than your hunting dog breeder to figure out genetics. Same applies to deer.

I have said this many times on here smaller bucks are being shot and left. Three and better show up in the trucks. People are pulling the trigger walking up and counting points.
It’s not going to change unless you throw out the three point rule.

My other opinion is you go to draw only, you kill hunting in this state. It will just go the way of Pheasant Release.  No body is going to show up in deer camp to watch one guy hunt. The family hunts,  friend hunts will all disappear. For you trophy guys who hunt alone no big deal .
You will love it for awhile, but reduced hunters buying tags it will not take this state long to cut your hunts down to two or three dates. This isn’t Idaho or other states where herds have been taken care of and where the majority supports hunting. This is Washington and any means they can use to reduce our numbers is a good thing in the antis eyes.

[bearhunter99]

Remove the late buck tags and make everything draw only is an alternative.

I know there are a lot of people against this but something needs to happen.   At least make it an every other year thing - those that didn’t drawn in year A get to hunt in year B then the people that have deer camps can put in as a group and still hunt together.

I’d rather have a better chance with less people and more animals every other year than what it currently is.  My family is able to usually put a couple in the freezer every year but I’d be willing to skip a year to improve future hunting. 

As far as the three point minimum - it worked really well for the first few years and the herds seemed to improve but it almost needs to be a cycle or something not 3 point forever. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[furbearer365]

Furbearer365: Why would you protect a spike? Could even be a lifelong spike. Which would get him a lifelong pass from hunters.
One of the biggest bodied bucks we ever got was back when you could shoot any buck. I got Dad on a spike opening morning. He made a great shot with my rifle.
It had a big mature size body and a white face Roman nose old buck. It had 12” long spikes.
Later I asked dad where those horns were as I wanted them as a curiosity. He had buried the head in the garden already.

When did I say "protect a spike?"  Im agreeing that 3 point or better is stupid, and doesn't work. That was my point with the elk also, why are we allowing a herd to have 5 spikes, but only shooting the only dinky 3x3 in the herd. All im saying is 2 point makes more sense then 3 point. Trying to see a 3rd point at 500 yards is damn near impossible sometimes. But seeing that its branched usually isn't. And, for the record, I think anyone under 16 and over 65 should be any deer. Get rid of "draw doe tags," cuz thats the dumbest thing ever. Allow our youth and elderly to use those to fill tags

[RC]

Just spitballing here, but why not get rid of the 3 point minimum and instead go to a 3 point MAXIMUM instead?  That's essentially what we've already done with eastside elk.  We already have very few bull tags, but we'd have 0 if the eastside had the same rules as the west.  Seems to me it wouldn't take very long at all before you would have a decent population of quality animals in more units, which in theory would lead to more quality late season draws. 

[pianoman9701]

Question, and I’m not being argumentative. What is a better solution? We already have enough people shooting the first legal 2x2 with a 1 1/32” eyeguard on one side. In 101 there have been multiple cases of dumped 2 points found and left to rot so there’s no shortage of guys willing to shoot 1 1/2 year old muley bucks.

Seems like we’ve gotta have some sort of minimum or nothing will ever reach maturity

You've got a minimum and obviously, people are ignoring it. Better to have good conservation education than a limit which promotes waste and bad genes.

[HunterStrait]

I'd like there to be a special draw tag on harvesting these mature bucks with these bad genetics with a points limit. later in the season during the rut.
Cant shoot spikes, cant shoot obviously younger bucks, cant shoot bucks with 3 or more points on both sides. I think eyeguards could be questionable.

Could possibly have some sort of identification test sorta like how bears are in some areas of the state where there's grizzly. There are physical signs other than just the antlers obviously, but I don't think a mature buck is going to stay a small dinky 2 point all its life.

[Okanagan]

Just spitballing here, but why not get rid of the 3 point minimum and instead go to a 3 point MAXIMUM instead?  That's essentially what we've already done with eastside elk.  We already have very few bull tags, but we'd have 0 if the eastside had the same rules as the west.  Seems to me it wouldn't take very long at all before you would have a decent population of quality animals in more units, which in theory would lead to more quality late season draws.

Interesting idea.  I haven't thought it through but at first blush I like it.  I'd add a draw system to let hunters take a few of the mature old bucks with big antlers. 

[furbearer365]

Just spitballing here, but why not get rid of the 3 point minimum and instead go to a 3 point MAXIMUM instead?  That's essentially what we've already done with eastside elk.  We already have very few bull tags, but we'd have 0 if the eastside had the same rules as the west.  Seems to me it wouldn't take very long at all before you would have a decent population of quality animals in more units, which in theory would lead to more quality late season draws.

Interesting idea.  I haven't thought it through but at first blush I like it.  I'd add a draw system to let hunters take a few of the mature old bucks with big antlers.

Except then you'd have the same issue with guys killing deer and leaving them cuz they weren't legal. They get to it, see a 4th kicker and now they're illegal. Just go 2 point or better in the 3 point or better units now. Opens doors to meat hunters being happy with a forky, while allowing a higher age class deer to walk and breed

[Bucks2Ducks]

Just spitballing here, but why not get rid of the 3 point minimum and instead go to a 3 point MAXIMUM instead?  That's essentially what we've already done with eastside elk.  We already have very few bull tags, but we'd have 0 if the eastside had the same rules as the west.  Seems to me it wouldn't take very long at all before you would have a decent population of quality animals in more units, which in theory would lead to more quality late season draws.

Interesting idea.  I haven't thought it through but at first blush I like it.  I'd add a draw system to let hunters take a few of the mature old bucks with big antlers.

I know the Tribe would love that!! They could stack 4 pt mule deer bucks up like cord wood. Id rather change the elk to 3pt or better.... draws are oil tags at this point. No reason to watch a select few kill 75% of the trophy animals

[Humptulips]

The problem with point requirements is it leaves to much room for mistakes. Guys don't shoot and leave animals because they want to. They do it because they made a mistake. Shooting a deer or elk often comes down to a split-second decision. You have a second to decide whether to shoot or not and maybe this is your only chance to be successful. I know you will say you should hold fire if you are not certain but realistically you place too much burden on the hunter to not get mistakes. God knows, I have shot a bunch of deer I had no idea how many points they had until they were dead. Thankfully I hunt blacktails.
All these point restriction plans do is try and make up for a lack of game. That is the problem that needs to be attacked.

[Remnar]

I'd like there to be a special draw tag on harvesting these mature bucks with these bad genetics with a points limit. later in the season during the rut.
Cant shoot spikes, cant shoot obviously younger bucks, cant shoot bucks with 3 or more points on both sides. I think eyeguards could be questionable.

Could possibly have some sort of identification test sorta like how bears are in some areas of the state where there's grizzly. There are physical signs other than just the antlers obviously, but I don't think a mature buck is going to stay a small dinky 2 point all its life.

I cant remember what units (snake breaks?) or exactly when it was. But that has been done .

[blackveltbowhunter]

 

The problem with point requirements is it leaves to much room for mistakes. Guys don't shoot and leave animals because they want to. They do it because they made a mistake. Shooting a deer or elk often comes down to a split-second decision. You have a second to decide whether to shoot or not and maybe this is your only chance to be successful. I know you will say you should hold fire if you are not certain but realistically you place too much burden on the hunter to not get mistakes. God knows, I have shot a bunch of deer I had no idea how many points they had until they were dead. Thankfully I hunt blacktails.
All these point restriction plans do is try and make up for a lack of game. That is the problem that needs to be attacked.

x100 on lack of game being the main issue.

   With a few exceptions, APRs are not supposed to be a long term game management tool. But a short term lever used to restructure herds, or manipulate specific areas. If the herd as a whole is being negatively impacted year after year with unsustainable harvest, all an APR does is prolong the inevitable, unless you make the APR so restrictive hardly any animals will qualify. Even then there will still be mistakes and illegal kills.

[Reidus]

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,233103.0.html

I think there's about 3 mature 2 points in 10 pages...

[huntnphool]

Here’s how it used to work, back when we had mule deer.
Would be a deer camp of 4-5 hunters. Two would shoot spikes or two points the first couple days. They’d be happy with that. Success. Then everybody would be done hunting and go home. At the same time you could take a kid or old timer out and find them a spike or two point opening weekend.
Now same camp of hunters hunts and hunts and hunts. They stay for the whole season. Because they’re out so long pounding the woods they kill one or maybe two mature bucks. If they would have left early like back in the day those breeders would have survived again. When the whole camp doesn’t get anything they say what fun they had just hunting. The old timers quit buying tags (me now) and the kids lose interest and don’t go out.
On the deer side. So now we’ve got fewer mature bucks. Who are more experienced breeders, genetically superior to a buck that was born a spike or smooth horn two point, and are more adept at eluding predators.
We’ve got a preponerance of inferior spikes and smooth horn two points that will always either be spikes or two points, or throw weak middlin horns.
We’ve got young bucks not being chased off does by mature bucks. So young bucks are falling off does, and pestering them, making the does burn more energy trying to keep them off. Weve got late fawns being born because the doe didn’t get bred the first cycle. Late fawns die. We’ve got inferior breeding stock producing inferior spike and smooth horn two points until the deer are gone.
Not everyone wants big antlers. But I’ve always said if you want to grow big horns, every spike or smooth horn 2 point should be knocked in the head the day it’s born. Or at least the first year it throws horns.

 There is a lot in there that makes sense, but I do have a question for you to answer. How do you know the “two point” you are referring to doesn’t have the genes of a giant?