HOPE hunters vs. Corn pile Watchers

[Ironhead]

High fences , food plots and baiting are just not the same as free ranging, fair chase,public land hunts. I don't care how you try to spin it.   

[billythekidrock]

My pee pee is bigger than your pee so I got a bigger bone pile than you do!

Boneaddict, Billythekidrock and I think we need to see your bone pile.  Put up or shut up! 

Hey, whoa... I just encouraged your post, not that I wanted to see bones "bone" pile..

[billythekidrock]

Billy Ya got to hear what they mean, not what they say   

Yea, I guess I didn't have my "female filters" on..lol

[actionshooter]

High fences , food plots and baiting are just not the same as free ranging, fair chase,public land hunts. I don't care how you try to spin it.  

 I hope that wasn't aimed at me. Not trying to spin anything. I don't do any of the above but there is a big difference between a high fence shooting (I won't call it a hunt) and baiting/ houndhunting. I think they are a legitimate method for hunting certain animals.
 Did you vote for the ban?

[Ghost Hunter]

Back to the still versus stand hunting.  He may have a point, bare with me here.  I spent the first 3 days of deer season still hunting or spot and stalk, no luck.  After a morning hunt of 4 - 5 miles, I make my way back to my rig.  Pull out my camp chair and set and enjoy a cold non-alcoholic beverage.  Now I'm 'stand' hunting, and what do I do but spot a nice 4 point close to where I had started my morning hunt.  Now I can use the hood for a rest, and drop him at 290 yards.  Any flames?  So which method worked  And does it really matter.  I needed the exercise, enjoyed the hike, and got my buck. Just the way I hoped I would

[Ray]

Ghost Hunter,

I believe you are the expert among us. 

[LongTatLaw]

I actually thought about deleting or getting someone to lock this earlier because after talking with Miles...I realized my post was poorly done so everyone was confused at what I was getting at!

For that, Im sorry. I normally think I write ok but man I must have been way way off with this.

As for the point...its was really somewhere in between "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG"  and LET HUNTERS HUNT THE WAY THEY ENJOY HUNTING as long as they respect the game and follow the law.

The rest was just meant as tongue in cheek banter to get people pissed off.  What happened is they did get pissed off but didnt realize it was banter and then they missed the overall message I had intended...

So, please feel free to not respond further to this waste of a thread.

As for seeing bones 'bone" pile??  Id rather not compare antlers with you brother... You seem to pass on things that make my shooters run for cover.

Ill take my chances in the penis contest Michelle wants to see

Maybe you can find out why the screen name is "LONGTAT"...lol

any way, I apologize for the poorly written thread... Ill do better next time.... and no more threads before Ive been awake for at least 30 minutes.

Again..take away message??   SUPPORT OTHER HUNTERS!!!  including me...lol

[Colville]

I call BS.

No one said Stalking vs Stand hunting was the "IT" in hunting. The issue was baiting.

Whitetail hunters know that for the most part stand hunting is what's going to work. The question is not whether or not the guy sneaking ridges vs sitting a stand is "elite". Neither of those guys care. Both of those guys think a guy hunting over corn and salt licks is a P.O.S.

This isn't about style. I hunt whitetails by spending a lot of time looking for where they are, finding rubs/scrapes and taking notes about the movement I see over the years. I stand hunt on very productive ground because I've learned what they like. I could make my life a TON easier by placing 5 bags of salted peanuts, a salt lick and half a bail of alfalfa in the area I hunt. I'd kill my buck in exactly one day every year. And I'd know I did not kill a deer behaving naturally in it's natural surrounds. I'd know I killed a cow to slaughter.

Animals are for eating so if you like that and you want to eat them GOOD FOR YOU. I have no problem with a guy that loves eating deer and will shoot one walking off alfalfa on exactly the same path it has for the last 90 days straight. Just don't tell me you hunted. Killed a deer? Sure!. Ethical, Sure!. Skillfull hunter... bite me.

There's a ton of hope and luck in hunting. Different game requires different styles. Alpine mulies aren't hunted on a rub line. White tails aren't hunted by glassing alpine ridges and moving a lot. Baiting is what it is. It's a way to attract deer to behave in a way they wouldn't normally because you can't/won't take the time to figure out how to get them in their natural movements. Again, I don't see a big ethical issue here, just admit what you are if you hunt this way. You are the hunting equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It works, you eat meat. Just don't sing about it being an achievement and we can all get along.

[Michelle_Nelson]

  No I deffinatly DO NOT want to see a penis contest on this site!

A "bone pile" contest most deffinatly!  

[Michelle_Nelson]

I think still hunting, stalking, or stand hunting are all ethical effective ways of hunting.  All of them require you to do your home work.  I mean you cant just put a stand up on a field the day befor you want to hunt and expect to shoot a trophy deer. 

Than again you cant just pull off to the side of the road take a 20 mile hike and expect to see game.  If you have never been in that area befor.  Yes chances are your going to see something.

Hunting requires home work.  I beleive anyone can ride around in their truck on the road, glass clear cuts, and shoot a legal deer with out doing pre-season scouting.  When it comes to baiting I see no problem wit it.  Personally, where do you draw the line between baiting and running hounds?  Either way the animal being hunted would not be acting naturally like they would be on their own in a natural setting.

If it came to a vote again I would vote to legalize baiting and hounding for cougar and bear.  Is baiting and hounding ethical that is up to the hunter.  Personally I think it requires its own skills. 

I mean you can't just dump a bucket of apples in the middle of the woods and expect deer to pile in.  You still have to do your home work and look for a good bait site weather hunting deer or bear. 

When it comes to hound hunting you cant just take a dog with no training out.  You have to put in the time to train the dog properly.  Plus you have to care for that dog.  Even than you can't just park on a clear cut and turn the dog loose and expect to tree someting. 

With both Baiting and hounding it requires you to do your home work.  Scout, talk to other hunters.  You have to gather information, and put it together.

[LongTatLaw]

SURE SURE Michelle...lol

Well Ive already admitted I dont wanna compare antlers with bones...lol

[ICEMAN]

There's a ton of hope and luck in hunting. Different game requires different styles. Alpine mulies aren't hunted on a rub line. White tails aren't hunted by glassing alpine ridges and moving a lot. Baiting is what it is. It's a way to attract deer to behave in a way they wouldn't normally because you can't/won't take the time to figure out how to get them in their natural movements. Again, I don't see a big ethical issue here, just admit what you are if you hunt this way. You are the hunting equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It works, you eat meat. Just don't sing about it being an achievement and we can all get along.

Agree, very well stated.

Muley hunting isn't usually associated with stand hunting, but sometimes it can be. For years I hunted a migratory route, where deer had to pass thru because of rugged obstruction, this was the trail, period. Our family shot a ton of large bucks here. This spot was located after alot of trial and error, and searching. Once we found the best spot, we would sit and watch it every year. Sort of took the fun out of it actually, just turned the hunt into a waiting game. Instead, I rather move a bit, in good areas, glassing, experienceing the area, the changing terrain, the chainging weather..... "hunting". Sitting just to claim a deer that has to travel thru, or routinely travels thru an area seems to me to be a bit boring. It isn't all about the kill, and weighing the amount of hours it took you to shoot your buck. How many times have you secretly thought, "gee I hope I don't tag out early...". I have worried about this often. I want to hunt. I want to struggle, and try, and lose. I want to go home and shake my head and wonder. I want to have that nightmare all "off season", about how I blew it last year. These are the things that make hunting fun. The anticipation, the frustration, and finally the successes.

I am opinionated enough, I need to shut my mouth often. In this case, I see where all hunt strategies are useful in the myriad of hunting opportunities available to us. I simply choose my strategy based upon what I personally want to get out of my hunt. My freezer is full, and I had to buy a second one this fall. I choose the strategy that will keep me in the woods with a smile on my face.

[mossback91]

Baiting for me would make me feel like one lazy *censored*. I think its wrong to feed deer any time of the year it gives them bad habits. I wouldn't feel like I accomplished much by driving up to a cornfield/wheatfield...and shooting a deer 10 minutes afetr daylight and then driving out to it and picking it up. My way of of hunting is defined in the dictionary as follows...Hunting:To seek out; search for.

[Guy]

"I think its wrong to feed deer any time of the year it gives them bad habits." To a certain extent I agree - but...

Problem is, we built cities on their traditional wintering grounds. Wenatchee is a perfect example. First it was likely sagebrush with scattered trees, like the surrounding hills. Later it was orchards - which were not bad habitat for the mulies. Now it's a city of 30,000+, with another 70,000 or so in the nearby areas on either side of the Columbia. Most of what was once low-lying, relatively sheltered mule deer wintering area is now a city. The deer still come down. I had fresh tracks in my front yard just a few days ago. Most though, hang around the city limits. Once in a while a confused mulie will be downtown when sun rises and cars & people start moving about. Usually ends badly for the mulie.

So now - without their traditional/natural wintering grounds they depend on us to help them through the winter in many areas. Same with the elk and bighorn sheep herds. We feed them to sustain them through the winters.

FWIW, Guy

[cohoho]

OK, guys I have read all of the posts on this one and come on, whether it's stand hunting or spot and stalk, it should be truly about HUNTING period.  Not trying to hijack thread, but we should stand and fight the antis versus being concerned which method is better.  No doubt there are a few out there on this site that will utilize issues like this as fuel for their fight....  If it is a legal means than freaking support it...... Heck, I do and will continue all forms that suit mine and my families needs and wants.  I use them all depending upon what I am going for and situation.  There needs to be a common thread between all of us, not my way is better, my pile is better than yours, my horns are bigger than yours.  It is the fact, we all hunt and fish for different reason, some meat, some horns and trophies, some simply for the shear enjoyment of being outdoors and soaking in the enviroment and surroundings.  Several years ago, we ran into several similar arguments up in Anchorage about Bear Baiting and the ethics of it.   It began in similar way about Spot and Stalk being better than Baiting for Bear on a couple forums then it spilled over into the main stream "Liberal" new papers and that is where it is believed, the anti's, got their fuel from and began a huge slam to baiting and wolf control measures. The outside state Anti's (CA) spurred the debate more and more it got on the ballet with their money and we almost lost a a form of hunting there by a slim margin. Below is an article that a guy placed in the Anchorage News Paper, around the time of the election that probably got the votes in favor of baiting.    Mike

Greetings,
Though I haven't done it in nearly a decade, I am a supporter of bear baiting because of the sound ecological principles that underlie its effectiveness as a management tool. The key to understanding this concept is in BOTH the timing of the bear take over bait AND the large number of bears (a renewable resource) that are harvested annually.
Though ethics must certainly dictate our actions, we can all come up with examples of unethical hunting practices that we've either witnessed or read about. Thus, centering a defense of bear baiting around "ethics" is a poor strategy since they reflect opinions. Everyone has opinions, and the hunting community is only a small fraction of Alaska's residents and even a smaller fraction of the national average. Thus, it puts ethically-centered arguments down at the same level as those with anti-bear baiting opinions who have different ethics. It is much more effective to focus on scientific reasoning and empirical data, so I would like to share some original ideas since our collective voices will be heard among a much broader audience than mine, alone. For example:

-- The PEAK of bear emergence from the den in Southcentral AK is usually around the first week of May (with a bit of annual variation correlated with snow cover duration ).
-- Then the bears remain lethargic for a week to 10 days as their metabolism gradually readjusts to a more active lifestyle.
-- Around the last part of May, at the same time moose and caribou begin dropping their calves, bears have ravenous appetites, and many have been shown to specialize at preying upon newborn caribou and moose calves. The exact proportion of bears (black or brown) shown to prey upon calves hasn't been established and would certainly vary from year to year and unit to unit anyway.
-- Since bear baiting only occurs in the spring, it removes a large number of bears that may otherwise feed on a large number of calves.
-- Spot and stalk bear hunting is another effective method in the spring, but the important message is that a large number of bears are killed over bait. STATEWIDE averages show that approximately 20% of the 2,500 black bears taken ANNUALLY are taken over bait. However, bear baiting is not allowed in the fall, so this proportion is obviously much higher when looking solely at the spring harvest, which is when the calves are so vulnerable and most ungulate predation occurs. Thus, baiting is an extremely effective management tool that affects bear, moose, and caribou populations.
-- After bear baiting season is finished (mutilate June, depending on area), moose calves are fast and agile enough that they are no longer as vulnerable to bear predation as they were only a few weeks prior, AND there are less predatory bears in the population.
-- Relying solely on the fall bear harvest isn't effective since many bears harvested at that time have already eaten calves of the year and have already taken their toll on moose and caribou recruitment.
-- Finally, its unrealistic to assume we can continue to take the same number of prey species every year while decreasing annual predator harvest. This leaves more predators (including humans) and exerts GREATER pressure on a finite prey resource. Its like imposing bag limits on pike in trout lakes.
-- The message that needs to be stressed is that we can't afford to eliminate a management tool as effective as bear baiting, or it will have consequences among both consumptive and non-consumptive users. These ecological principles tie us, bears, moose, and caribou together in the same food web.

A few nonscientific considerations:
-- Supporters of the bear baiting ban initiative are promoting the idea that baiting bears will somehow place urban residents at great risk. This is a rather nebulous argument; however, bear baiting isn't even legal around Alaska's most urbanized population centers. If a bear, like a human, smells something delicious... even if it has never tasted that item before, it will investigate the scent. Thus, it is unwise handling/storage of aromatic items that attract bears to urban areas, not the baiting that occurs in rural areas.
-- Since bear baiting isn't allowed in (hunting subunits) surrounding Alaska's major population centers, the vast majority of individuals deciding the fate of this management technique don't live where bear baiting is more necessary to maintain healthy populations of subsistence species. Thus, this ban will likely exacerbate the urban/rural divide in Alaska and give ADF&G a black eye if the consequences of increasing bear densities are realized.