Take this serious!

[luvtohnt]

IF DONE PROPERLY (which is a problem with our current WDFW) wolves will in fact enhance the ecosystems in Washington.

How so?  Enhance?  Sorry I can not wrap my head around this please tell me more.  What can the wolves do that Man, bears, coyotes, cougars, birds of prey are not doing already?

Look it up you may learn something. I have a document on the biogeochemical enhancement which provides ecosystem improvement. The study shows a definite correlation to the added pressure brought by wolves. Hunters can't provide that. I am not sure how to share this info as little Dave pointed out that the site I pay for to get these kinds of reports will not allow me to attach it to this forum. I suppose I could email it to you but I would need to know what programs you have because the only copy I have is in pdf.

Unfortunately, the publisher of that document does not want it circulated in this manner.  A quotation from the last page of the document reads this way:

Copyright of Journal of Pediatric Diseases is the property of IOS Press and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's  express written permission.  However, users may print download or email articles for individual users.

We need to respect that.

I removed the document as I never read that part. I pay good money to use that academic search engine and assumed that I was free to use any and all info as I deemed necessary. I will have to start emailing these to people and make them read only. Thanks for the heads up.

Brandon

[Shootmoore]

IF DONE PROPERLY (which is a problem with our current WDFW) wolves will in fact enhance the ecosystems in Washington.

How so?  Enhance?  Sorry I can not wrap my head around this please tell me more.  What can the wolves do that Man, bears, coyotes, cougars, birds of prey are not doing already?

Look it up you may learn something. I have a document on the biogeochemical enhancement which provides ecosystem improvement. The study shows a definite correlation to the added pressure brought by wolves. Hunters can't provide that. I am not sure how to share this info as little Dave pointed out that the site I pay for to get these kinds of reports will not allow me to attach it to this forum. I suppose I could email it to you but I would need to know what programs you have because the only copy I have is in pdf.

Brandon

So the study on the biochemical affect of Top-down predation you are looking at, is this the study done by the Michigan Tech University?  If so I find that there 2 objectives they list to the USDA for the basis of the study is 1) inspire a diverse audience of scholars in ecology, biogeochemistry, behavior, and evolution to collaborate in an effort to further elucidate the dynamic mechanisms by which predators regulate ecosystem processes and 2) champion results immediately relevant to policy makers involved in the conservation of predators locally & globally to be interersting and I wonder what affect those two objectives had in the data and results came to by the study?

I always call into question science when a desired use and outcome is an objective to the scientific study being conducted.  If I am thinking of the study you are basing your argument upon, in laymens terms they are saying that Wolves are better for the biochemical health of the environment above hunters because they don't remove the carcass and they *censored* in the woods. 

Shootmoore

[luvtohnt]

No the one I read was from a professor at NYU It was a scope of before and after reintroduction analysis of yellowstone. PM me your email, or if it is in your profile I will send the info to you. You CAN NOT post it to this site though because of the copyright laws as littledave pointed out. I haven't read the whole article either but so far it appears to greatly enhance the ecosystems nutrient cycling, which in turn will benefit the animals with better forage.

Brandon

[WAcoyotehunter]

It looks like all the released wolves were tested and treated for this, as well as other possible conditions or parasites. 
I think the argument that they will pass it along and kill us all is pretty lame. 

[Shootmoore]

It looks like all the released wolves were tested and treated for this, as well as other possible conditions or parasites. 
I think the argument that they will pass it along and kill us all is pretty lame. 

Any chance of converting that .docx file to .doc?  I don't have a reader that will allow me .docx.  Or a link if its on the web would be good.

Shootmoore

[luvtohnt]

Try this.

Brandon

[WAcoyotehunter]

sorry...thanks luvtohunt.

[Shootmoore]

Thanks, good info and glad it is being addressed.  I guess we will wait and see at this point if there is an increase in the western states.

So to my understanding if I am reading the info correctly, the only way that my dog can become infected is if he eats the cysts.  He can not become infected if he sniffs wolf or coyote scat?  Or if he does sniff the scat he could infect me as a secondary host by spreading the eggs onto his coat.

I don't know about you but my lab is a scat sniffer and a goose poop lover.

Shootmoore

[WAcoyotehunter]

I've seen my dogs snooping around the wolf crap up here...I guess I don't usually get too worried about that stuff 

I also rarely use gloves to skin animals (even yotes)...I hope I don't regret that some day!

[luvtohnt]

Your dog will only be able to be infected if he eats an infected ungulate. The way a parasite's life cycle works they need a host (canine) and an intermediate (ungulate or human) to complete it's development. The reason wolves are good at spreading it is because the live were ungulates eat. So the eggs from the scat will attach to grass, and when ingested by an ungulate, they will form cysts, and the eggs will develop into worm heads. When the worm heads are consumed by a canine who eats the infected animal the worms mature and lay eggs in the intestines of the canine species. Producing a never ending cycle if undisturbed. So keep your dog away from dead ungulates, and worm him regularly and you will be fine. Geese have nothing to do with this parasite. Almost all parasites are host specific, meaning they can only mature in a specific animal. I hope I was clear enough, if not let me know, I am sure I can come up with a diagram somewhere.

Brandon

[Lowedog]

The only way for the parasite to make it to the adult stage is for the cysts to be eaten and they will take hold in the host animals intestines to start the whole cycle over.  I don't recall reading anything about canines becoming infected with the cysts but yeah the eggs are spread in the feces and ingested not inhaled.  If your dog were to get the egg loaded crap on him you could it on you from handling your dog.  

luvtohunt beat me to it.

coyotehunter, you should pack some gloves with you.  I always do and use them for skinning, boning and such.  I have been told by wildlife biologist that predators of all sorts carry some really nasty stuff. 

[luvtohnt]

Waterfowl harbors some nast little guys as well!!

Brandon

[Shootmoore]

I know that geese are not in this cycle, just throwing it in there as my dog does seem to have a crap fetish. 

So at this point it appears that the main concern for me and my dog out hunting is 1 the dog gets attacked by wolves and two that my dog gets the eggs on his coat and I get the eggs on me from petting the dog.

Sounds like a bath for the dog each time I am out in possible areas of contamination is in order.  Probably also a good idea to keep the boots out in the garage and give them a good lysol spray down if in wolf country.  Don't want to bring those nasty eggs in the house.  I'm not what I would call a germaphobe, but I do the same process with my work boots.  You should see some of the places I walk through.

Shootmoore

[bearpaw]

I am very concerned about this.

While many people may not have much exposure to wolf scat, as wolves populate I am concerned that myself, my guides, or our dogs will at some point be exposed to this parasite. It is documented that until introduction of canadian wolves there was little or no known infestations in the mountain west. There is also documentation of many people being infected by this parasite in Alaska where it is more common in the wild animal population.

The problem is that as wolves spread this parasite in the western states, more and more animals will undoubtedly become infected. Ungulates will become infected since they graze in the areas inhabited by the wolves and other carnivores will become infected when they eat the ungulates. My guides and I probably handle 200 to 400 animals per year so our exposure is much greater than those who go hunting a few times each year. Additionally our hunting dogs spend a great deal of time on the mountains in pursuit of game. There is little doubt that our dogs will encounter wolf scat as they pursue game trails with their noses. If 60% of wolves are infested then 60% of the wolf scat could have eggs, this is something to be very concerned about.

Furthermore I find it very troubling that this infestation of parasites in the northern wolves was not made public during the decision making process to import northern wolves.

There are probably 300 to 400 outfitters in each western mountain state not to mention the number of hunting guides working for those outfitters. Most of these thousands of outfitters and guides have one type of hunting dog or more and most have families, now tell me this is nothing to be concerned about.

I do not like dishonesty or suppression of facts by someone trying to promote their agenda (wolf introduction) and in my opinion if there is one case where humans, dogs, livestock, or game populations are affected, someone should be held accoutable for failure to provide information they were aware of but failed to disclose to the public.

[bearpaw]

There are thousands of ranchers, sheep herders, loggers, and people of other proffesions who will also be exposed to these parasites through the 60% of infested wolf scat laying around the woods. As soon as this parasite infects coyotes, bear, etc., the problem could easily multiply further.

I am not trying to offend you luvtohunt, but has it occured to you that you are being taught what they want to teach you.

I am very glad that you are a hunter and that you are going to be a biologist, I hope more hunters get into the field as it is in dire need of actual hunters. But please remember, most of those doing the teaching have their own agendas, and it is not usually a pro-hunting agenda. They are certainly going to downplay anything that would make wolves look bad.