If the East Side Went to Permit Only!!!

[hunterofelk]

I'd like to see the elk/landowners issues solved.  We are in jeopardy of losing the winter habitat to private developers at a rate where in a few years, a permit season will be the only option.

[sako223]

bringing the herd size down from 11,500 to 9,500 is either.

I don't like a reduction in the herd either but the cut was done by permit & harvested by hunters.
The reason for the reduction was primarily clashes with agricultural issues. The elk were damaging crops and eating harvested goods. When the herd numbers were at a high the forest service was complaining of excess damage.
This year elk hunters will pay for those extra permits when they are cut in half.

[3dvapor]

Yes and NE might possibly be the exception and wouldn't need to be on a draw. But there would somehow have to be a requirement that if you apply for a draw only unit and don't draw, you can't hunt the OTC units.

That is exactly how it is done in Utah.

Everyone can apply for a limited-entry elk hunt (roughly half the elk habitat in the state). Then later in the year, over the counter tags go on sale for the over-the-counter areas (roughly the other half of elk habitat in the state). Best of both worlds, that is why Utah gets my vote for best management.

When the Book Cliffs were nearly void of mule deer, the Utah DWR shut deer hunting down for three years. Now the Book Cliffs are again a prized mule deer hunting destination.

They did the same thing in the Henry Mtns, now it's som e of the best mule deer hunting in the west.

i guess im just being optomistic and see the potential of our state.  ive also hunted utah famed pauns. for mule deer.  it was exceptional on a down year.  Utah responded immediately to lower buck ratios cutting tags and improving habitat.  I still remember how many deer we lost in the winter of 93-94.  i dont think those numbers have ever come back.  driving hwy 12 at night was a thrill trying to miss all the deer at night crossing the road,  some nice bucks too.

[bearpaw]

Some of you guys forget that not everyone is looking for a trophy when they go hunting. For many it's recreation, family time, or just a get away. Those folks do not want to see restricted hunting. They are happy to hunt spikes or cows or what ever is open and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has as much right to enjoy hunting and want management objectives to suit their desired hunting experience.

There is room in this state to offer various units with a variety of management objectives in each region to suit the biggest number of hunters where they wouldn't have to travel across the state to hunt if they didn't want to. The biggest problem I see is that no one is willing to give a little, it's all their way or the highway. Pretty self centered attitude if you ask me.

Well that just doesn't work, some of you need to quit being so selfish with your own desires and look for ideas that can work together to satisfy a broad range of interests, then you can reach a concensus with a group and try to get something done.

[3dvapor]

i wasnt trying to convey making eastside units into trophy elk and deer areas by stating examples of other states have done but rather agreeing with colockumelk's first post that there are different management strategies that work better than ours.  i think his proposal is solid and would work better than what is currently in place.  i dont think there is anything selfish or selfcentered about that.

[alanger]

 

simple fix. If you live on the westside you hunt on the westside. If you like on the eastside you hunt on the eastside.  Eastside elk herd officially fixed!

If that happened I would move to the eastside.   
[/quote]

So be it, im sure you wouldn't be the first. 

[hughjorgan]

What would be the purpose of making the Yakima units permit only? Quality? Opportunity to hunt bulls more often? Personally that herd seems like it is doing just fine. No need to fix something that isn't broken, IMO. If it is to crowded for you then maybe think about switching weapon choice. Or if you want to hunt branched antler bulls hunt the westside. The only thing I think the WDFW needs to do differently is tweek the special draw system a little bit.

keep drinking the wdfw koolaid

Why don't you answer the question I asked instead of making some snide remark. What it comes down to people are lazy and they don't want to compete with others to get their animals. Tough luck if you are to damn lazy to work hard to get your animal. There is ample opportunity to hunt depending what you value in hunting. The herd is healthy in the yakima area and there is no reason that I can see for going to a permit only season.

I dont think killing 70percent of the total spikes a year is healthy herd management along with bringing the herd size down from 11,500 to 9,500 is either.  i believe low success rates reflect that but maybe they were just lazy.  remember the same management let herd numbers drop from several thousand elk to just a few hundred in the blues, which those numbers have not changed and the whole time considered the herd healthy.

So, where did you get that 70 percent of spikes are killed every year, is this for all the eastside? The yakima herd? The colockum herd? Blues Mtn herd? There is a problem with the way they have managed the Colockum, no argument there. I don't see how you can argue the Yakima Elk herd isn't healthy, the spike management has worked in these GMU's, all you have to do is go and check out the feed lots during the winter to see how well it has worked. There are lots of big bulls running around in the Yakima herd.

[3dvapor]

What would be the purpose of making the Yakima units permit only? Quality? Opportunity to hunt bulls more often? Personally that herd seems like it is doing just fine. No need to fix something that isn't broken, IMO. If it is to crowded for you then maybe think about switching weapon choice. Or if you want to hunt branched antler bulls hunt the westside. The only thing I think the WDFW needs to do differently is tweek the special draw system a little bit.

keep drinking the wdfw koolaid

Why don't you answer the question I asked instead of making some snide remark. What it comes down to people are lazy and they don't want to compete with others to get their animals. Tough luck if you are to damn lazy to work hard to get your animal. There is ample opportunity to hunt depending what you value in hunting. The herd is healthy in the yakima area and there is no reason that I can see for going to a permit only season.

I dont think killing 70percent of the total spikes a year is healthy herd management along with bringing the herd size down from 11,500 to 9,500 is either.  i believe low success rates reflect that but maybe they were just lazy.  remember the same management let herd numbers drop from several thousand elk to just a few hundred in the blues, which those numbers have not changed and the whole time considered the herd healthy.

So, where did you get that 70 percent of spikes are killed every year, is this for all the eastside? The yakima herd? The colockum herd? Blues Mtn herd? There is a problem with the way they have managed the Colockum, no argument there. I don't see how you can argue the Yakima Elk herd isn't healthy, the spike management has worked in these GMU's, all you have to do is go and check out the feed lots during the winter to see how well it has worked. There are lots of big bulls running around in the Yakima herd.

those numbers come from ted clausing regional manager wdfw and that is the yakima herd.  As i stated before i agree with the first post on this thread that his suggestion of tag allotment would be a better alternative to killing 70 percent of the spikes every year.  the both of us will probably always disagree on this issue besides i dont think washington will ever be willing to give up the $$ to put game management as there #1 priority.

[Turkeyman]

 

[norsepeak]

3d did you actually talk to Ted?  If you did go talk to him again and you'll get a different answer...not a reliable source, his answers change depending on the political breeze.  The only way they could know that 70% were killed is if they new the total amount of spikes...which they don't have a clue.  I saw 4 spikes in the last week while coyote hunting at the 5k foot level, those spikes never got close to a feeding station or even down low near the "wintering" grounds, so I know they weren't included in their surveys.

[colockumelk]

So lets say this happens in the near future,how many special permits tags would be issued? Roughly 7,800 applicants put in for a any bull archery tag in the 300 units and 5,200 archer's hunted in the 300 units. How many tags do you all think would be a good quota?

Funkster at the  beginning of this topic I posted a link you can go to.  In my paper I used the WDFW formula for how they come up with the number of special permits.  I ran it by the bios.  They said my number was + or - 3%.  They also said most likely these numbers would go up as the number of elk and branch bulls increased.  Since they told me my numbers were + or - 3% means they have thought about it as well.

Scroll down to see how many permits each unit would have.



Modern used to give out 486 Permits.  A permit system would give out 1680 permits
Muzzle Loader used to get 99 permits.  A permit system would give out 410 Permits
Archery used to get  498 Permits.  A permit system would give out 1619 permits. 

http://www.washingtonsportsmen.com/?q=node/85

[colockumelk]

Good posts everybody.  I've learned alot and I really, really like Bearpaws idea.  Especially since the quality vs the quantity (of hunting) groups will probably never completely agree.  I think the current permit system is a tragedy.  It will now take people just as long to draw a cow permit as a bull permit.  Go WDFW.  Now we will lose even more hunters.  Would all of you like to know the real reason that we lose hunters in this state year after year?  It is because of the lack of QUALITY hunting.  When kids especially go 8 years without killing an elk they quite.  Why because it's frustrating.  For 15 years it's been spike only.  It was only supposed to be for a little bit.  Spike hunting is not hunting.  It's trying to find a needle in a haystack.  We have a 10% success rate.  On average it takes an elk hunter 7-8 years to kill an elk.  Our seasons are designed for us to FAIL!!! 

FACT: Our state has the highest hunter:elk ratio.  It's almost 3:1.  FACT: Our elk herds encompass a relatively small area thus forcing this large amount of hunters into a confined area.  So our WDFW is forced to either manage our herds through permit only system or manage through short seasons and bad times of the year.  FACT: We have the LOWEST quality elk hunting amongst states that have elk hunting.  The pathetic elk hunting we do have if allowed to continue will be the cause of a continued decline in the numbers of hunters.  Do any of you think that this trend will somehow reverse itself if nothing changes?

[bearpaw]

Colockum you are correct, there are many hunters who hunt other states and do not hunt in Washington anymore because they are so disgusted.

The only way to improve the trend is to find a balanced way to manage our elk that offers the greatest number of hunters what they want in a hunting experience and the only way to accomplish that goal in a state like washington is to have a multi-facetted approach.

[colockumelk]

I think one reason why many would be against a permit only system is because they are scared of it and rightfully so.  But they only fear it because they don't understand it.  They fear it because everytime the WDFW makes a change "for our good" we lose opportunites and rights.  I've seen it happen.  I think people think that since currently it takes 6-10 years to draw a branch bull tag that means they'd only be able to hunt every 6-10 years.  Not so.  While some argue may not agree with the following; and it really does baffle me that when on 3-4 times MORE permits would be issued some argue that it would take just as long to draw.  In any case here's a quick rundown on just how MANY MORE permits would be given out in the Yakima/Colockum GMU's.  If you want to see a GMU/hunting method breakdown click on the link and scroll down to the tables.

Modern used to give out 486 Permits.  A permit system would give out 1680 permits
Muzzle Loader used to get 99 permits.  A permit system would give out 410 Permits
Archery used to get  498 Permits.  A permit system would give out 1619 permits.  

http://www.washingtonsportsmen.com/?q=node/85

So to dispell one rumor is that IF (big if) it went to permit only you WOULD get drawn 3.41 times more for a big bull permit than you did before.  I think IF (big if) it went to permit only people would eventually embrace it because it would be quality hunting once again. As their success rates went up and the amount of times they drew branch bull permits went up and that of their buddies went up I think people would love the new system.  I think people like what they have now because that's all they know.  Its kind of like if someone has drank Busch LIght their whole life they would think that is good beer.  But then they try a Budweiser and man oh man that changes their whole perspective on what GOOD really means.

One voiced concern was that the quality of big bulls would go down.  I don't agree.  Look at it this way.  Instead of killing the bulls when they are spikeks we would now kill them as 3 point or better bulls.  But there is now way to tell for sure whether it would bring the quality of branch bulls down or not.  

Someone mentioned that the WDFW would lose revenue.  Yes they would.  Bobcat mentioned paying $80 for an elk tag.  I think what he meant by that is this.  Eastside Elk would work much like our multi-season tag.  You pay the $5 dollars for your application fee.  If you get drawn then you have to buy the tag.  If that tag is $80 dollars your still not paying more than you are now.  I know a bunch of people said WHAT!!!! Colcokum you are an idiot  Under a permit only system you are NOT going to draw a branch permit every year.  But you WILL draw it every 2-4 years (depending on method and which unit you apply for)  So if every 2-4 years you pay $80 where before you paid $40 dollars a year.  So that is why while a tag may cost more overall you're not paying more money.  

[bearpaw]

I hate how this state has to re-invent the wheel. If you look at what works and doesn't work in other states it is easy to get good ideas.

Montana and Idaho have over the counter opportunity all over the state, but they are even adopting more limited entry areas all the time. Utah ahs their state split in half with over-the-sounter and limited-entry.

As an outfitter I talk to thousands of sportsfolks every year. I get calls all the time from Arizona and Nevada residents who just want to hunt somewhere because they can't draw a tag (draw only states) and they just want to hunt somewhere even though they know the bulls won't be as big in over the counter areas.

To overcome funding problems, Utah charges a lot more for the limited-entry tags when you draw. Over-the-counter tags are much cheaper and satisfy those who just want to go for a hunt.

I'm not coming up with new ideas, I'm just looking at what works and doesn't work very well in other states.