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Author Topic: diaphram frustration  (Read 7382 times)

Offline DoubleJ

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diaphram frustration
« on: August 24, 2010, 08:41:56 PM »
I can't get this.  I don't even know if it's in my mouth right  :bash:  does the round part go against my teeth or does the flat end go there?  Help please?  and no laughing  >:(

Offline buglebrush

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 08:45:05 PM »
I feel your pain.  :P The straight edge goes against your teeth.  try looking it up on youtube.  Some great tutorials.

Offline nontypical176

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 09:14:06 PM »
Gagged on a diaphram the first year I used one, until I puked.  The best part is when you finally get one working for you and then it starts tasting like a fresh pile of dog crap each time you put it in your mouth.  Sometimes I wonder...... does my breath smell as bad as this thing tastes, and why are my eyes watering?

Offline JCClement

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 10:58:57 PM »
Had the same thing happen the first time I used a mouth diaphram for Turkey.   Just wait until the taste and smell make their appearance.

Offline carpsniperg2

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 11:09:10 PM »
best thing to do is buy a sonic done call they are the best for beginners. the flat edge goes forward and there will be a gap between the roof of your mought and the read. that is what the dome calls do for you automatic. you do not have to worry about spacing with them.
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Offline inmysights

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 11:34:22 PM »
Some reeds are better than others. The sonic domes are uncomfortable for me, I prefer the primos and carlton brands. Takes lots of practice and the gaging goes away after a few years.  ;)

Offline Crunchy

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 12:05:42 AM »
Its more than likely too large of size.  Look for a small that fits the roof of your mouth better and your good to go.

Offline Elkhound

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 06:00:17 AM »
I have been using various Primos diaphragms for the pst 5 years...both elk and turkey. I listened to one of Joel Turner's elk calling seminars and ound out that it seems like my diaphragms don't fit my mouth properly as well.  The roof of my mouth is very high not to mention I have a wide mouth as well.  I cannot find a call that will seal against the roof....air keeps escaping.  Mind you, I can make decent sounds, but I cannot keep my mouth open when calling like Joel recommends....I always have had to pierce my lips and flex my tongue to keep the call in place.  The mini diaphragms don't seem to help either.  Any suggestions out there would be awesome!

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 06:14:45 AM »
I bought 3 different diaphrams last night.  2 I can't get any sound out of and the third sounds like a jackrabbit in distress.  I'm going back to external calls

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 06:29:54 AM »
Sounds like that jack rabbit would work for some coyote thinning!

Offline brianmtsinc

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 06:50:20 AM »
Don't give up on these.  In my opinion they are a MUST HAVE during archery elk season.  I have taken 2 elk out of the last 4 years that both would have been gone if I did not have a mouth call in.  Both of them were in to about 5 yards, saw me and went to bolt.  I blew a quick call as I came to full draw  - one was shot at 17 yards and the other at 10.  An external call would have never worked in either situation. 

I NEVER go into the woods without a call in my mouth now!

Keep trying and you will get it!   

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 06:52:32 AM »
I've watched the videos online.  I need someone in person to show me

Offline Elknut1

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 06:53:46 AM »

 I agree, do not give up so easily it's worth the time & effort to master the mouth diaphragm! Here's some instruction for use!--------

 
 Learning to use a mouth reed takes persistent practice, do not give up too easily, even if it seems a bit difficult at first! Make sure you're using the right tool for the job here. You want to start with a light tensioned single reed latex mouth reed or a very light tensioned 1 1/2 layered latex reed as a beginner, no double reeds here or very tight stretched latex reeds, they're not user friendly & are for more experienced calling. You want to start with cow sounds first, soft ones at that, then you will graduate to louder & longer tones as you master the small ones. Bugles will come or stem from your cow sounds. A bugle is no more than a lengthened out cow mew where you would add more air & a bit more tension on the latex reed itself with your tongue. These bugles are reserved for AFTER you master cow sounds. You want to achieve one goal before you move on to the next one!

Do Not Over Blow! This is very common for new ones to do so, do your best to control your air output as if you were just breathing the air out past the diaphragm. Make sure you have a 100% seal where the tag of the call is up against the roof of your mouth, you must dam the air up. If tag is stiff, then chew/nibble on the tag & saliva it up a bit, to soften it with your front teeth, as you hold the main frame in your right hand. This will make the tag pliable & will now mold easily to your palate. The open end part of the latex reed of the call itself should be where back of top teeth on the inside meet gum line, you do no want it too far back, It is not held with your teeth in a biting motion at all, it merely will fit snugly into place against back of top teeth & loose tag part of reed sealed in roof of mouth, the call will be in a 30-35 deg angle. Adjust front or back from there for best position per individual, make sure you have it sealed or you'll get a hissing sound, that shows air is getting over the top of mouth reed tag & escaping just under your pallet! Now take the tip portion of your tongue & drop it down to where it touches in the area of the inside of your bottom teeth & gum line, now use the middle portion of your tongue to contact mouth reed in the middle portion of the latex not the end of the latex. Some find that using the front portion back of tongue & shaping it like a bicep then using that small part of the arch in contact with the latex works best for them for some bugling such as the location bugle. To start getting a sound out of your call, say shhhh as you apply light pressure on latex with flat part or center of tongue. For more elk like sounds, now put a bit more tension on the latex & slowly increase airflow in a controlled manner. For cow sounds only light tongue pressure is needed with controlled air flow such as breathing type air. Don't push the air or force it out, avoid quick bursts of air for these starter sounds! Play with tongue tension for best sound quality, & make sure your tongue is salivated for slickness & you'll notice less tickling! Do your best to keep solid contact with tongue on reed when making sounds, this can change a bit for more nasally cow sounds, then you would slide tongue just off latex or near end of it to flutter latex & create the needed vibration of latex to get the nasal effect that a cow will use at times! For all bugles & screams you do not want your tongue slipping off front of reed, you will lose major volume there if you do! See how this info works for you! But, perfect your cow sounds first before moving on, or being concerned with bugling!

  ElkNut1

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 07:06:37 AM »
I'm using the Primos Ivory plate single.  I cut down the tape and it makes a bit of a better noise.  Louder anyway

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 07:13:37 AM »

 I agree, do not give up so easily it's worth the time & effort to master the mouth diaphragm! Here's some instruction for use!--------

 
 Learning to use a mouth reed takes persistent practice, do not give up too easily, even if it seems a bit difficult at first! Make sure you're using the right tool for the job here. You want to start with a light tensioned single reed latex mouth reed or a very light tensioned 1 1/2 layered latex reed as a beginner, no double reeds here or very tight stretched latex reeds, they're not user friendly & are for more experienced calling. You want to start with cow sounds first, soft ones at that, then you will graduate to louder & longer tones as you master the small ones. Bugles will come or stem from your cow sounds. A bugle is no more than a lengthened out cow mew where you would add more air & a bit more tension on the latex reed itself with your tongue. These bugles are reserved for AFTER you master cow sounds. You want to achieve one goal before you move on to the next one!

Do Not Over Blow! This is very common for new ones to do so, do your best to control your air output as if you were just breathing the air out past the diaphragm. Make sure you have a 100% seal where the tag of the call is up against the roof of your mouth, you must dam the air up. If tag is stiff, then chew/nibble on the tag & saliva it up a bit, to soften it with your front teeth, as you hold the main frame in your right hand. This will make the tag pliable & will now mold easily to your palate. The open end part of the latex reed of the call itself should be where back of top teeth on the inside meet gum line, you do no want it too far back, It is not held with your teeth in a biting motion at all, it merely will fit snugly into place against back of top teeth & loose tag part of reed sealed in roof of mouth, the call will be in a 30-35 deg angle. Adjust front or back from there for best position per individual, make sure you have it sealed or you'll get a hissing sound, that shows air is getting over the top of mouth reed tag & escaping just under your pallet! Now take the tip portion of your tongue & drop it down to where it touches in the area of the inside of your bottom teeth & gum line, now use the middle portion of your tongue to contact mouth reed in the middle portion of the latex not the end of the latex. Some find that using the front portion back of tongue & shaping it like a bicep then using that small part of the arch in contact with the latex works best for them for some bugling such as the location bugle. To start getting a sound out of your call, say shhhh as you apply light pressure on latex with flat part or center of tongue. For more elk like sounds, now put a bit more tension on the latex & slowly increase airflow in a controlled manner. For cow sounds only light tongue pressure is needed with controlled air flow such as breathing type air. Don't push the air or force it out, avoid quick bursts of air for these starter sounds! Play with tongue tension for best sound quality, & make sure your tongue is salivated for slickness & you'll notice less tickling! Do your best to keep solid contact with tongue on reed when making sounds, this can change a bit for more nasally cow sounds, then you would slide tongue just off latex or near end of it to flutter latex & create the needed vibration of latex to get the nasal effect that a cow will use at times! For all bugles & screams you do not want your tongue slipping off front of reed, you will lose major volume there if you do! See how this info works for you! But, perfect your cow sounds first before moving on, or being concerned with bugling!

  ElkNut1

Best advice I've seen so far.  Makes it sound better.  I'm comparing it to my imaka da bull crazy external cow call.  The sound is getting close to matching but it is MUCH quieter with the diaphram.

Offline Little Fish

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 08:57:16 AM »
After you master the sounds at a softer/quieter level then you can work on increasing the volume.

FYI....Elknut provided me a lot of guideance when I first started calling. Its worth a visit to his site to see what calls and DVDs/CDs he has that will help you. Personally I am a fan of the the Rocky Jacobson calls which in my opinion are more forgiving/easier to call with that Primos and other brands.

Offline mtbiker

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 09:43:14 AM »
Last year, I was new to elk calling.  I have all of Paul's (Elknut1) educational DVD's and they really helped.  I'm no expert by any means, buy they really helped to shorten the learning curve and he provides a lot of insight behind each topic.  I highly recommend them.

Also, one of the big hurdles I got over is when I trimmed the diaphram to get that nice fit in the top of my mouth.  Until I did that, I was floundering and at best sounded like a sick duck.

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 09:46:32 AM »
Personally I am a fan of the the Rocky Jacobson calls which in my opinion are more forgiving/easier to call with that Primos and other brands.
:yeah:  I also use the Carlton double reed.  It fits differently in my mouth than the Rocky Jacobson calls, but I like the sound I can get out of it.  Also, I had to trim all of them to get them to fit right in my mouth.

Offline Elkhound

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 03:27:17 PM »
Getting a good seal between the back of the call and the roof of the mouth is KEY!  When I tried the Primos calls with the Sonic Dome or even the ones with the "Sound Plate," the call became much easier to use.  It still didn't solve all of my issues due to the fact that I have a VERY high palate.  I am a dentist so I was lucky enough to have some material in my lab that I could use (dental impression putty) that I was able to place on the call, seat it in my mouth and form it so that it would seal against the root of my mouth.  WHAT A WORLD OF A DIFFERENCE!  When you have a good seal, it takes very little air pressure and very little tongue pressure to make a consistant sound.  I am able to call while keeping my mouth/lips open which gives you a good natural sounding tone.  I suppose there are other things you could try using, but that's what I did!  Maybe I can market these calls?  :twocents:  :chuckle:

Offline Ridgeratt

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 04:04:23 PM »
For all of the new  Diaphram user's a trick to keep the call from tasting like a bad nite out!!!
Is to find an old 35 MM film canister and then keep them in it in a solution of half water and half of your favorite mouth wash.
If you can find the old advatanix cans they are oval. the snap lid gives you a leak proof seal as well.

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 04:42:18 PM »
It feels sealed in the back, I just don't know.  Seems like I get better sound when air goes over the top and bottom.  I know this is wrong and I'm trying not to do it that way.

Offline Elkhound

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 05:00:34 PM »
It feels sealed in the back, I just don't know.  Seems like I get better sound when air goes over the top and bottom.  I know this is wrong and I'm trying not to do it that way.

Just watch yourself in the mirror when you call with it in.  You don't want your lips to be pierced for a cow mew sound.  Tip of tongue should be on the back of the lower front teeth and the middle of the tongue placing pressure against the latex reed of the diaphragm.  A lot of people pierce their lips when making a cow mew and you should have an open mouth as much as possible.  I hope this helps!

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2010, 05:16:07 PM »
How can my tongue put pressure on the latex when that plate thingy is in the way?

Offline Elkhound

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 05:27:48 PM »
How can my tongue put pressure on the latex when that plate thingy is in the way?

It must be upside down....the plate must go toward the roof of the mouth.

Offline DoubleJ

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 08:05:12 PM »
How can my tongue put pressure on the latex when that plate thingy is in the way?

It must be upside down....the plate must go toward the roof of the mouth.

Holy crap!!  That explains a lot.  It's a lot better now.  Almost sounds good.  Now I'll practice instead of throwing them out.

Offline carpsniperg2

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 08:08:16 PM »
 :chuckle: that a kid ;)
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Offline blk_tmbr_archery

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2010, 12:47:09 AM »
Another call you may want to think about are the Jones calls.  These calls produce a quality sound though they don't seem to last as long as the others.  One advantage of these calls for a beginner is they are designed to be be molded to your mouth by slightly bending the metal frame to the shape of the roof of your mouth without changing the tension of the latex.  These calls are also easy to shape by cutting them down to size.  If you try one of these out I recommend buying two of them (one for practice and one for hunting) due to the fact they will stretch out within a few weeks of constant use.  I think you would be quite pleased with the sound.
Take your kids and train your future competition.

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Offline Instinct

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2010, 02:05:59 AM »
also remember that when ur using em, dont have ur lips close or at a O shape like when u whistle when u call. open ur mouth when doin cow calling. learned that from a elk seminar last year.

Offline roadhuntking

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2010, 03:12:52 PM »
How do you control from not salivating so damn much.  I can't even practice more than 30 seconds and I have to take it out and start over. Very frustrated. But after reading this thread I have learned a lot and gonna try first thing when I get home.

Offline Whippersnapper

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2010, 11:57:07 AM »
I get a lot of use out of my primos sonic dome. I've found that by standing the dome down about a millimeter to take down the edges and smooth out the arch, the dome doesn't hurt the roof of my mouth. It is a great all around diaphragm call as you can get great cow calls and two tone satellite bull calls out of one call.

I recently got a big surprise last season when I encountered a herd bull. We had him in a timber stand in a small drainage surrounded by high desert. We split him off from 5 of his 12 cows and needless to say he was pissed. We engaged in a bugleing war at 50 yards for 45 minutes. However, early on I found that because the adrenaline flowing through my veins, my mouth went very dry and my diaphragm call wouldn't make  any sounds that sounded even close to an elk. After licking my arm for salt I was able to get enough saliva to squeak out some chuckles. Try ado might, I wasn't able to get a big challenge bugle out. This was total call failure. I wished to the stars that I would have had a non diaphragm call as backup. If you tend to dry out when you get amped up, then definitely have a backup system.

Offline PA BEN

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2010, 04:02:34 PM »
Back in '86 I bought a Larry D. Jones tape and diaphragm's. It was hard at first, but I kept with it. Keep it in your mouth as much as you can. When I started turkey hunting they worked for me great. I keep one in my mouth all the time while hunting. I cow call as I hunt so the elk might think I'm an elk they hear walking. If you jump some elk squeal like a bull and they will sometimes stop for a shot.

Offline canyelk48

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2010, 05:02:06 PM »
I'd love to master the use of a diaphragm, but always ended up slobbering all over myself trying to figure the dang things out!

Offline blk_tmbr_archery

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2010, 10:42:53 AM »
You can also try practicing with a Turkey diaphram.  They are easier to call with and quite a few of them provide excellent tones.
Take your kids and train your future competition.

Sean

Offline carpsniperg2

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2010, 10:59:04 AM »
hell about 9 out of 10 of mine are turkey diaphrams :chuckle:
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Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2010, 11:07:56 AM »
I have been cow calling with diaphrams for several years, but have been using a Power Bugle for my bull sounds.  I have found that my cow calls are convincing, but my bull sounds are not nearly so (at least that's what the elk tell me).  I just bought the Elknut Chuckler package (on the advice of about 100 people on this site).  Now I wish I had bought it last spring so I had more time to practice before the season starts.  Like I said, I am fairly proficient at cow calling with one, but the bull sounds are still kicking my butt.  One nice thing about Elknut's stuff is that they come with the instructional DVD.
Practice, practice, practice.... :bash:
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Re: diaphram frustration
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2010, 12:45:47 PM »
I'd love to master the use of a diaphragm, but always ended up slobbering all over myself trying to figure the dang things out!

We're still talking about calls here right :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Sorry, had to be done.

For the taste and smell issue with the diaphragm call, try a little mouth wash with the call in or the dead down wind breath spray. Either will make life a lot better.
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Sauk Unit Youth Elk Tips by high_hunter
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Jupiter Mountain Rayonier Permit- 621 Bull Tag by HntnFsh
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MOVED: Seekins Element 7PRC for sale by Bob33
[Yesterday at 06:57:10 PM]


3 pintails by metlhead
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1993 Merc issues getting up on plane by Happy Gilmore
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A lonely Job... by AL WORRELLS KID
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Unit 364 Archery Tag by buglebuster
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A. Cole Lockback in AEB-L and Micarta by A. Cole
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Willapa Hills 1 Bear by hunter399
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