Unique Roosevelt

[Lightning_Rider]

Thats an impressive 4x4 for sure!

[wildmanoutdoors]

Do you know Reuben E? He is our cousin and captains my brothers crab boat the CELTIC.

I've known Reuben since I was a kid only because we grew up in the same area (Moclips/PB)...He's a little older than me though.  You forgot to mention that he's one of the best fishing guides too.

Annette,

I took a co worker fishing up there in late July last year.  He tried fly fishing, but didn't have any luck...admittedly he was a little inexperienced in fishing these small west side streams.  We switched to spinners and bait and had a blast...cut throat, dolly's, young stealhead, and a JULY COHO! 

So that looks like the upper Salmon River?

[Coastal_native]

So that looks like the upper Salmon River?

funny, thats what everyone else that seen the picture thought too, I couldn't convince them I wasn't lying.  Upper North Fork Raft River.

[dreamunelk]

Yup, I was thinking Raft.  So did he have all his teeth? 

I seem to remember another dandy bull in that area.

1000+ bulls and some cows are common on the OP and happen in rosies if the groceries are present.  I have seen and handled many.  Seen one cow up close and personal this year that I now was over 5'6" high at the ass end this.  Could have been bigger but, I was avoiding hooves. The elk in Alaska all came from the Hoh river.  It was started by either 8 or 12 elk.  No genetic problems.  So for those of you who like to say it is all genetics you are simply miss informed.  Can't compare to animal husbandry by humans.  We tend to create the problems.  Natural variation, unrestricted breeding, and natural selection plays a major role.  speciesization and evolution have played a huge role in making them the monster they can be.

[Coastal_native]

Yup, I was thinking Raft.  So did he have all his teeth? 

I seem to remember another dandy bull in that area.

Ouch...low blow:'( There wasn't much left of his teeth, but they were all there.  Which one of those two idiots from our current administration are you getting your info from anyway   I talked to bozo #2 on monday...It sounds like you were trying to teach him something over the weekend...don't bother, you're wasting your time. 

 

[colockumelk]

I agree. There was a study done to see how much genetics had to do withantler growth compared to feed. They took one Buck from a farm that had good genetics. They then went into the wild and tranqed a spike Buck. They then took the two deer and fed and treated them the same throughout their life. Here's what they found. The farm Buck the first two years grew much faster compared to the wild Buck's antlers. But by age 4 the speed of growth evened out. The biggest the wild Buck got was 175 and the farm Buck made it to 185. The two bucks had about the same rate of recession when they got older.  This particular experiment showed that age and feed had more to do with antler size than genetics. Although genetics does play a small part.

[Coastal_native]

I agree. There was a study done to see how much genetics had to do withantler growth compared to feed. They took one Buck from a farm that had good genetics. They then went into the wild and tranqed a spike Buck. They then took the two deer and fed and treated them the same throughout their life. Here's what they found. The farm Buck the first two years grew much faster compared to the wild Buck's antlers. But by age 4 the speed of growth evened out. The biggest the wild Buck got was 175 and the farm Buck made it to 185. The two bucks had about the same rate of recession when they got older.  This particular experiment showed that age and feed had more to do with antler size than genetics. Although genetics does play a small part.

You truly are a bio nerd

but a serious question...What about the role of genetics in antler abnormalities...like the bull on this post having no 3rds.  If this wasn't a result of age/regression, is it something that could have been passed down.  I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, although I remember reading about it in text books.

[dreamunelk]

I forgot to ask what the teeth looked like.  From your description sounds like and old regressing bulls.  Maybe 12+ I was I balling the pedicles(sp) and thinking those were a little large for a young bull.  But, you never know out there.

Yes, I taught him how to road hunt.  That is the only place I could find reasonably fresh sign.  The snow kind of messed up my plans.  Although I dug into the aerials today and have a goof idea where to look nest time.  Think I will do some exploring this summer.  Big old growth stand in between to areas of use I did not know or forgot about.  Oh well I enjoyed myself. Time to get serious and stop thinking about big bulls and get some meat!  did he tell you about the pictures!  I was looking in the wrong place!

Clockumelk, good post!  The USDA did some unpublished research on antler growth using various specialty mixes and found that it was mostly groceries.  I am trying to remember what the handler said was the best feed.  These were all pen raised fawns in very controlled situations.  They grew some monster big B.T.  Moving them into a real environment will affect the growth because now they are competing and the equation changes.  One of these days I will get out some of the old literature on the twisted things the Europeans have done to red deer to study antler growth.  They did prove that if you cut of the right nut it affects the left antler.  On the more interesting side if they injure legs on one side during the antler forming period it will affect the other side.  If memories serves me right that is the quickly explanation.  Actually they really went into some twisted detail to find out what certain injuries will do.  Interesting but, a little twisted when you realize that it was all done to create trophies.  Genetics does play a very important roll.  We (hunters) get to fixated on the perfect rack for the book.  When it really is not what is so amazing about them.

[chester]

Dreamunelk,
I think those euros are on to something. i have a 2pt blacktail rack on my wall i shot in 2007. he had a big left and an tiny right side. he was a big bodied deer. when i skinned him i found a muzzy slug stuck against his left shoulder blade. worst smell ever but it looked to be there from the year previous.

[dreamunelk]

C-N, I will try and look that up in the near future.  I left my elk bible at work.  In this case I would have to say it is just a product of age and regression.  In another year or two I bet he would be a monster spike with webbed horns.  So instead of a true fork it would be webbed.  Seen one like that up on Bogi several times while working a few years ago.  He was a very cool looking and very old blond bull.  He use to hang out with an old cow that woofed like a bear.  Scared the crap out of me more than once.  She died of old age I never heard of anyone getting him so I think he did to.  Also I seem to remember a picture floating around of an old bull in the upper Q. Valley that was similar.  Just more webbed.

[Coastal_native]

Dreamunelk,

Is this the bull you are refering to?  If I remember correctly someone took these pictures while hiking and sent them around to the ONP and WDFW trying to get some info about it.  It was an old collar from a an old study...I think they concluded it was around 15 yrs old.

What elk bible do you use?  I have a copy of Elk of North America.  Is there a more reliable text book?

[dreamunelk]

Nope, this one did not have a collar and no tines,
Those pics were taken by a profession photographer, Chuck Bartlet.  They tried to track him down.  Only a couple of bulls were marked with a collar like that during the park bull study.  Collar was dead so they could not tell for sure.  but, based on the few bulls marked with that style of collar the thought was 15-17 at the time the pic was take.  Ancient for a bull and he was still chasing the girls!

My main book is "North American elk: Ecology and Management".  it is a great reference.  Published in 2002 so there have been a lot of new research so you have to except that some of the data is old and with newer research, modern statistics and cool new ways of tracking they are rethinking several things.  Just one of many books I would recommend.  There are several new books out that I am  over.  Just don;t have the $200 per book to satisfy my curiosity.

[PacificNWhunter]

Great bull!

[Special T]

WSU had a research center  near Olympia that did feed experiments on Black tail trying to find some kind of spray /deterrent to keep them from eating the fresh growth off tree starts... I'll try and find out more...

[Forks_hunter68]

yeah I know the area lol .....Clearwater is the stomping grounds for me!..... congrats thats a great bull man