Post by: jess on November 05, 2012, 11:56:04 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on November 06, 2012, 12:16:45 AM
Post by: PolarBear on November 06, 2012, 12:24:46 AM
Hey, do they still have that big set of whitie antlers that was found up Swan Lake way in the office?
Post by: jess on November 06, 2012, 12:29:02 AM
Post by: PolarBear on November 06, 2012, 12:48:11 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on November 06, 2012, 03:16:04 AM
If you have the officers name make a complaint. I agree that even though you broke the law you still do not need to be treated that way. Pretty simple here's your ticket get on your way
You don't need the officers name to file a complaint. They will figure out who it was based on the date, time, location, etc..
Post by: Gundy on November 06, 2012, 04:57:24 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 06, 2012, 05:43:37 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on November 06, 2012, 06:44:59 AM
Glad to know Gundy was just joking. I have had a few what they call coutesy checks by the USFS/WDFW/County Sheriff all in ones and it has been my experience they are A-holes. The one up by Stevens Pass is a real peice of work. Won't give them the time of day.
Definately bigger idiots and A holes the closer to pugetropolis you get. most (USFS) should stay at their desks
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 06:57:55 AM
Post by: Shed Stud on November 06, 2012, 07:15:37 AM
Post by: JLS on November 06, 2012, 07:17:15 AM
The other encounters were compliance checks during hunting season, checking our camps for food storage and such. No issues there, because we make sure we do things by the book.
Post by: rtspring on November 06, 2012, 07:18:58 AM
Heres the kicker to this story, no wood cutting allowed? but HUNTERS such as I and people around where I camp are burning CORDS of wood? hmmm seeems kinda hipocritical to me.......
HE was cutting wood and made a mistake, we got better people to hang!!
RTSPRING
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 07:26:27 AM
HANG HIM?? Really, for chirst sake he was cutting wood, which by the way lays there and just rots over the years.... yes I know there are laws, but I have had enough of these threads about bad law enforcement. Write me a damn ticket and either take me to jail or Im outta there...
Heres the kicker to this story, no wood cutting allowed? but HUNTERS such as I and people around where I camp are burning CORDS of wood? hmmm seeems kinda hipocritical to me.......
HE was cutting wood and made a mistake, we got better people to hang!!
RTSPRING
You're allowed to use resources within the forest without a permit, including burning cords of wood at hunting camp. It's allowed. Wood cutting permits go to pay for the stewardship of our forests. When you take wood without a permit you leave your fellow citizens footing your bill. It's theft, just as much as someone taking the refrigerator of your porch would be, RT. This isn't even an ethical question. I confused as to your support of this guy.
Post by: Whitpirate on November 06, 2012, 07:26:58 AM
The OP was wrong but the officer out of line.
Post by: HornHoarder on November 06, 2012, 07:28:11 AM
Post by: JLS on November 06, 2012, 07:29:46 AM
Post by: CedarPants on November 06, 2012, 07:30:08 AM
If it went down as you say it did - pay your fine and follow the law from now on, and file a complaint against this officer
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 07:31:44 AM
Yeah, I agree what a crock of s**t. He was probably just trying to keep his family warm this winter.
C'mon, really? What's a wood cutting permit, about $40 or less? He's feeding a truck to go get wood and he can't afford the permit? I don't buy it.
Post by: bradslam on November 06, 2012, 07:33:18 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 07:38:40 AM
A wood cutting violation is not grounds for the officer to cast aside professionalism and replace it with vulgar commentary about people having sex with their sister.
If it went down as you say it did - pay your fine and follow the law from now on, and file a complaint against this officer
I agree that there's no call for un-professionalism, but the fact that he willingly broke the law puts his whole post in question. How can you trust his word on the story about the USFS officer's actions when you know he started off knowingly breaking the law? It's a little like a guy suing the police for brutality after he resists arrest. I know it's not the same, but you get the idea. I'm a bit surprised someone would post this thread at all. :dunno:
Post by: CedarPants on November 06, 2012, 07:40:55 AM
A wood cutting violation is not grounds for the officer to cast aside professionalism and replace it with vulgar commentary about people having sex with their sister.
If it went down as you say it did - pay your fine and follow the law from now on, and file a complaint against this officer
I agree that there's no call for un-professionalism, but the fact that he willingly broke the law puts his whole post in question. How can you trust his word on the story about the USFS officer's actions when you know he started off knowingly breaking the law? It's a little like a guy suing the police for brutality after he resists arrest. I know it's not the same, but you get the idea. I'm a bit surprised someone would post this thread at all. :dunno:
Hence the "if it went down as you say it did" portion of my post :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 07:41:25 AM
A wood cutting violation is not grounds for the officer to cast aside professionalism and replace it with vulgar commentary about people having sex with their sister.
If it went down as you say it did - pay your fine and follow the law from now on, and file a complaint against this officer
I agree that there's no call for un-professionalism, but the fact that he willingly broke the law puts his whole post in question. How can you trust his word on the story about the USFS officer's actions when you know he started off knowingly breaking the law? It's a little like a guy suing the police for brutality after he resists arrest. I know it's not the same, but you get the idea. I'm a bit surprised someone would post this thread at all. :dunno:
Hence the "if it went down as you say it did" portion of my post :tup:
I start off slow but then taper off. Thanks Cedar.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 06, 2012, 07:49:40 AM
If you have the officers name make a complaint. I agree that even though you broke the law you still do not need to be treated that way. Pretty simple here's your ticket get on your way
I am pretty sure he has his name on that pieace of paper he got from him. :dunno:
If it's dead or on the ground wind fall who cares, free permits for all no limit, just pay an admin fee to get them. :twocents:
Post by: CedarPants on November 06, 2012, 07:53:18 AM
A wood cutting violation is not grounds for the officer to cast aside professionalism and replace it with vulgar commentary about people having sex with their sister.
If it went down as you say it did - pay your fine and follow the law from now on, and file a complaint against this officer
I agree that there's no call for un-professionalism, but the fact that he willingly broke the law puts his whole post in question. How can you trust his word on the story about the USFS officer's actions when you know he started off knowingly breaking the law? It's a little like a guy suing the police for brutality after he resists arrest. I know it's not the same, but you get the idea. I'm a bit surprised someone would post this thread at all. :dunno:
Hence the "if it went down as you say it did" portion of my post :tup:
I start off slow but then taper off. Thanks Cedar.
:chuckle:
Post by: Southpole on November 06, 2012, 08:02:18 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 08:07:31 AM
I agree that the officer was a real D-bag and acted unprofessionally (there is a match to him in Darrington). However, how many other guys like you has he come across cutting firewood illegally... you're are not the only guy cutting firewood illegally (especially in that area). This just gives him more ammo to be an A-hole and thinking that everyone around there really is inbred. By the way, state and federal lands are not the people's land anymore, it's the "governments" land, the government in this country hasn't represented the people since the start of the Clinton area. More and more (especially on the westside) government agencies are making it more difficult and uncomfortable for citizens to be on "the people's" land for many different reasons, some of them are for obvious reasons like dumping garbage, cooking drugs, poaching, cutting firewood illegally, and some other reasons we'll never know.
I've never had a problem with USFS officials. I hunt the GPNF and have for about 20 years. They've come into camp to check the safety of the fire and this year, to keep us apprised of the fire danger from the Cascade Creek fire. I understand there are jerks working in every occupation. I just haven't seen them personally in the USFS. Maybe if I had been cutting without a permit, my experience would've been different.
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 08:24:22 AM
This is theft of natural resources.
Pay the fine and walk away.
Learn from this and put yourself back up on the highroad.
Post by: Gundy on November 06, 2012, 08:29:43 AM
Glad to know Gundy was just joking. I have had a few what they call coutesy checks by the USFS/WDFW/County Sheriff all in ones and it has been my experience they are A-holes. The one up by Stevens Pass is a real peice of work. Won't give them the time of day.
Couldnt be more serious.... Everyone on here will whine and cry if someons behind a locked gate or riding a quad or road hunting but this guys GETS CAUGHT CUTTING WOOD IN A NO CUTTING AREA and its cool cuz the officer was a big meanie....LOL... how bout this.... cut wood where your supposed to and you wont have to worry bout the FS meanie hurtn yo feewings....
Post by: Mike450r on November 06, 2012, 08:32:23 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 08:36:55 AM
uh oh, the mean man with the badge was rude. And if what he said is true that employees in the Republic office are tipping people off so they have a better chance at getting away with illegal wood cutting he has a right to be pissed about it and people should be losing their jobs.
:yeah:
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 08:39:57 AM
so today i was out cutting firewood in an area that was not open to wood cutting i will admit that and i will pay my fine.. But what i was realy pissed about is when the officer said all the people in the republic USFS office "are inbreed and are telling the firewood thieves his schedule"... First off alot of these people are my friends and take great offence to that statemen and will be talking to his boss tomorrow, and second off dont the national forest belong to the people? How can a person be a thief for cutting dead snags and down trees? This also offended me because i never have or will steal ever.. Sorry for venting just pissed not about the ticket but the way the officer behaved in my three+ hour ordeal with this officer..He never said he "couldn't afford the permit". He said he screwed up and will pay the piper. Now you guys are on here bustin his chops like he killed a 400" bull on the interstate with a pellet gun hung out his window with a beer in hand. Then you wonder why people are reluctant to post pics and stories. Those people are supposed to be professionals, they should act like it.
It is DEAD WOOD for cryin out loud.
Post by: bobcat on November 06, 2012, 08:40:43 AM
I am glad Jess put the story up though. It could save some people from a $400 fine, and might help prevent more wood from being stolen.
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 08:45:25 AM
so today i was out cutting firewood in an area that was not open to wood cutting i will admit that and i will pay my fine.. But what i was realy pissed about is when the officer said all the people in the republic USFS office "are inbreed and are telling the firewood thieves his schedule"... First off alot of these people are my friends and take great offence to that statemen and will be talking to his boss tomorrow, and second off dont the national forest belong to the people? How can a person be a thief for cutting dead snags and down trees? This also offended me because i never have or will steal ever.. Sorry for venting just pissed not about the ticket but the way the officer behaved in my three+ hour ordeal with this officer..He never said he "couldn't afford the permit". He said he screwed up and will pay the piper. Now you guys are on here bustin his chops like he killed a 400" bull on the interstate with a pellet gun hung out his window with a beer in hand. Then you wonder why people are reluctant to post pics and stories. Those people are supposed to be professionals, they should act like it.
We are simply pointing out that he broke a law, and we are advising that he simply pay the fine.
LE officers for the most part do act professional. Since we were not there, we can only respond to the OP's statement about his action. As usual, I would love to hear both sides of it....but that ain't going to happen is it...?
Post by: stuckalot on November 06, 2012, 08:51:07 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 08:56:44 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 08:56:55 AM
I realize that the law is the law, but taking dead trees that were probably on the ground anyway, I don't view as "stealing" and certainly don't put on anywhere near the same level as poaching an elk! I'd think of it more as doing everybody a favor but that's just me...
It's not a question of clearing dead trees. The permits pay for the maintenance of our resources. If we don't get the money through permit sales, we either have to pay higher taxes or we don't get the services. My NW Forest Pass just went up another $5. He's using the resource and you and I are paying the bill. That might be OK with you, but it's not OK with me. He's making my forests cost me more. That's BS. It's a pay to play situation and he didn't. I'm glad that we're now getting $400 instead of the $40 he should've paid in the beginning.
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 08:58:26 AM
Is this OK, taking from our national forest, without permit, to then sell at a profit?
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 09:07:54 AM
I get that exactly and you make a good point. So how in the world did people get to calling him a thief, say he is cheating the system. Went on to say he couldn't afford the permits but could afford the drive in his truck, these things IMO are dangerous assumptions and what lies behind a lot of people shying away from here.so today i was out cutting firewood in an area that was not open to wood cutting i will admit that and i will pay my fine.. But what i was realy pissed about is when the officer said all the people in the republic USFS office "are inbreed and are telling the firewood thieves his schedule"... First off alot of these people are my friends and take great offence to that statemen and will be talking to his boss tomorrow, and second off dont the national forest belong to the people? How can a person be a thief for cutting dead snags and down trees? This also offended me because i never have or will steal ever.. Sorry for venting just pissed not about the ticket but the way the officer behaved in my three+ hour ordeal with this officer..He never said he "couldn't afford the permit". He said he screwed up and will pay the piper. Now you guys are on here bustin his chops like he killed a 400" bull on the interstate with a pellet gun hung out his window with a beer in hand. Then you wonder why people are reluctant to post pics and stories. Those people are supposed to be professionals, they should act like it.
We are simply pointing out that he broke a law, and we are advising that he simply pay the fine.
LE officers for the most part do act professional. Since we were not there, we can only respond to the OP's statement about his action. As usual, I would love to hear both sides of it....but that ain't going to happen is it...?
No we don't have all the facts So why are we so eager to jump this guy?
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 09:09:11 AM
Who said he didn't buy the permit? That's an assumption.I realize that the law is the law, but taking dead trees that were probably on the ground anyway, I don't view as "stealing" and certainly don't put on anywhere near the same level as poaching an elk! I'd think of it more as doing everybody a favor but that's just me...
It's not a question of clearing dead trees. The permits pay for the maintenance of our resources. If we don't get the money through permit sales, we either have to pay higher taxes or we don't get the services. My NW Forest Pass just went up another $5. He's using the resource and you and I are paying the bill. That might be OK with you, but it's not OK with me. He's making my forests cost me more. That's BS. It's a pay to play situation and he didn't. I'm glad that we're now getting $400 instead of the $40 he should've paid in the beginning.
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 09:10:20 AM
Then this USFS guy comes in from a different area and disrupts that balance, is he making a point?
Did the higher ups get pissed at the Republic office for not writing enough fines?
So they send in their top go-getter to write a ton of fines and make the local office look bad.
I don't think any of you that do not live and collect firewood around the Republic area have the right to bust this mans balls for "stealing" firewood. I also do not see it as theft. The permit system was put in place in order to funnel and control the taking of firewood for the gain of USFS - for monetary gains mostly imo, and perhaps for reasons from nesting birds to fire danger to you name it. Taking an animal out of season is not analogist to cutting firewood out of season. This is a case of not adhering to the rules set forth in regard to harvesting firewood off public lands, nothing more.
If you want to make an analogy it'd be more akin to harvesting a road kill deer without a permit.
Also, I do not think an officer has the right to be rude with a compliant subject, nor do I see any reason under any circumstance to badmouth his fellow employees even if they are from a different office. That is not cool under any circumstance.
my 2c
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 09:14:55 AM
The Republic office has learned over the years how to manage and fit in around the locals, and works around the mandates from their higher ups. Is this not how things should be?
Then this USFS guy comes in from a different area and disrupts that balance, is he making a point?
Did the higher ups get pissed at the Republic office for not writing enough fines?
So they send in their top go-getter to write a ton of fines and make the local office look bad.
I don't think any of you that do not live and collect firewood around the Republic area have the right to bust this mans balls for "stealing" firewood. I also do not see it as theft. The permit system was put in place in order to funnel and control the taking of firewood for the gain of USFS - for reasons from nesting birds to fire danger to you name it. Taking an animal out of season is not analogist to cutting firewood out of season. This is a case of not adhering to the rules set forth in regard to harvesting firewood off public lands, nothing more.
If you want to make an analogy it'd be more akin to harvesting a road kill deer without a permit.
Also, I do not think an officer has the right to be rude with a compliant subject, nor do I see any reason under any circumstance to badmouth his fellow employees even if they are from a different office. That is not cool under any circumstance.
my 2c
I have to respectfully disagree, KF. The permits sold by the NFS benefit all of the NFS, not just where they're collected. If you're supposed to pay to cut wood, you pay, or you can buy wood from someone else who cuts it.
As far as what happens locally around Republic is concerned, if you guys have been getting the soft touch over the years, be thankful, I guess. If that's ending, it should and it's about time. I pay, you pay, we all pay. That's the way the system's set up and that's the fair way to do it.
Post by: JLS on November 06, 2012, 09:16:56 AM
The Republic office has learned over the years how to manage and fit in around the locals, and works around the mandates from their higher ups
So my interpretation of what you are saying is they pretty well let folks do as they please, regardless of the rules?
Post by: MountainWalk on November 06, 2012, 09:19:46 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on November 06, 2012, 09:22:04 AM
...by the USFS/WDFW/County Sheriff all in ones....Who?
Post by: bobcat on November 06, 2012, 09:22:23 AM
That's why the USFS employs foresters and wildlife biologists, so they can make decisions such as what areas should be open for firewood cutting.
This area was not open for firewood cutting, according to Jess. So it wouldn't have mattered if he had a permit or not. It was a closed area!
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 09:23:40 AM
Again, who says he didn't buy the permit?The Republic office has learned over the years how to manage and fit in around the locals, and works around the mandates from their higher ups. Is this not how things should be?
Then this USFS guy comes in from a different area and disrupts that balance, is he making a point?
Did the higher ups get pissed at the Republic office for not writing enough fines?
So they send in their top go-getter to write a ton of fines and make the local office look bad.
I don't think any of you that do not live and collect firewood around the Republic area have the right to bust this mans balls for "stealing" firewood. I also do not see it as theft. The permit system was put in place in order to funnel and control the taking of firewood for the gain of USFS - for reasons from nesting birds to fire danger to you name it. Taking an animal out of season is not analogist to cutting firewood out of season. This is a case of not adhering to the rules set forth in regard to harvesting firewood off public lands, nothing more.
If you want to make an analogy it'd be more akin to harvesting a road kill deer without a permit.
Also, I do not think an officer has the right to be rude with a compliant subject, nor do I see any reason under any circumstance to badmouth his fellow employees even if they are from a different office. That is not cool under any circumstance.
my 2c
I have to respectfully disagree, KF. The permits sold by the NFS benefit all of the NFS, not just where they're collected. If you're supposed to pay to cut wood, you pay, or you can buy wood from someone else who cuts it.
As far as what happens locally around Republic is concerned, if you guys have been getting the soft touch over the years, be thankful, I guess. If that's ending, it should and it's about time. I pay, you pay, we all pay. That's the way the system's set up and that's the fair way to do it.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on November 06, 2012, 09:23:56 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 09:29:49 AM
I get that exactly and you make a good point. So how in the world did people get to calling him a thief, say he is cheating the system. Went on to say he couldn't afford the permits but could afford the drive in his truck, these things IMO are dangerous assumptions and what lies behind a lot of people shying away from here.so today i was out cutting firewood in an area that was not open to wood cutting i will admit that and i will pay my fine.. But what i was realy pissed about is when the officer said all the people in the republic USFS office "are inbreed and are telling the firewood thieves his schedule"... First off alot of these people are my friends and take great offence to that statemen and will be talking to his boss tomorrow, and second off dont the national forest belong to the people? How can a person be a thief for cutting dead snags and down trees? This also offended me because i never have or will steal ever.. Sorry for venting just pissed not about the ticket but the way the officer behaved in my three+ hour ordeal with this officer..He never said he "couldn't afford the permit". He said he screwed up and will pay the piper. Now you guys are on here bustin his chops like he killed a 400" bull on the interstate with a pellet gun hung out his window with a beer in hand. Then you wonder why people are reluctant to post pics and stories. Those people are supposed to be professionals, they should act like it.
We are simply pointing out that he broke a law, and we are advising that he simply pay the fine.
LE officers for the most part do act professional. Since we were not there, we can only respond to the OP's statement about his action. As usual, I would love to hear both sides of it....but that ain't going to happen is it...?
No we don't have all the facts So why are we so eager to jump this guy?
He jumped himself. He started a thread about his poor treatment by a USFS employee after he admittedly took firewood without a permit. Are you kidding me WC? No one jumped this guy. I'd personally be damned if I would ever start a thread about my illegal activities and then expect sympathy for my treatment after the fact when I got caught.
Look, I'm not going to ride around our forests looking for guys stealing wood. But I'm also going to stick by the rules for cutting it and pay for the permit. If you don't and you get caught, pay the piper and learn your lesson. But don't come to me expecting me to get all upset about your treatment at the hands of the person who catches you.
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 09:31:51 AM
The Republic office has learned over the years how to manage and fit in around the locals, and works around the mandates from their higher ups
So my interpretation of what you are saying is they pretty well let folks do as they please, regardless of the rules?
I never said that, and I really do not know how the Republic office handles things to be honest I do not live there.
Also, we do not know of the OP has a permit or not. They are cheap, but he never said if he had purchased them or not.
Also, I do not harvest firewood. I used too years ago off, but always from our own private land.
About the only argument I'll listen too is the one of nesting birds and wildlife habitat, but honestly that is a stretch as 99.999% of all firewood harvested is cut within 50 yards of an established road and not out in the middle of roadless areas.
Also, a big portion of firewood gathering is from old logging piles, pushed up to the side and left to rot. People will go in behind the loggers and clean up burnable materials, is that theft too? Is that akin to poaching a monster bull elk? Should we execute them?
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 06, 2012, 09:34:14 AM
good lord the OP said he was caught in a closed area not that he was cutting without a permit. so lets hang him on the assumption he didnt have a permit. with the info he provided hes guilty of not being current on area closures or inability to read a map
I don't understand this thread at all or the favorable responses to it. I know if I'm in a closed area, it's on me. That's all. I'm outta this one. It's obvious that nothing more can be gained by discussing this further. Have a good day, all, and go vote.
PMan
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 09:37:04 AM
If you're cutting down "dead snags" you're not just stealing wood from the public, you're also taking away what could be critical wildlife habitat.
That's why the USFS employs foresters and wildlife biologists, so they can make decisions such as what areas should be open for firewood cutting.
This area was not open for firewood cutting, according to Jess. So it wouldn't have mattered if he had a permit or not. It was a closed area!
This is about the only argument I've heard with a small amount of merit. However it is thin as people do not hike 10 miles in to harvest wood, it is all done within a stones throw of an established road. 99% of the forest land is never touched by wood harvesters. If you had an eye for firewood, then every time you stepped off the road in your hunting activities you'd notice all the pickles ripe for harvesting :chuckle:
Post by: hunter360 on November 06, 2012, 09:40:41 AM
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 09:40:56 AM
good lord the OP said he was caught in a closed area not that he was cutting without a permit. so lets hang him on the assumption he didnt have a permit. with the info he provided hes guilty of not being current on area closures or inability to read a map
I don't understand this thread at all or the favorable responses to it. I know if I'm in a closed area, it's on me. That's all. I'm outta this one. It's obvious that nothing more can be gained by discussing this further. Have a good day, all, and go vote.
PMan
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not in favor of breaking the law, or harvesting wood in a closed area, nor does accepting the fine and paying the piper make it 'OK'.
However, we need to keep this in context. People seemed to be going off the deep end here.
Also no one agreed to my statements
Quote
I do not think an officer has the right to be rude with a compliant subject, nor do I see any reason under any circumstance to badmouth his fellow employees even if they are from a different office. That is not cool under any circumstance.
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 09:41:55 AM
I do agree with that by the way.
Post by: bobcat on November 06, 2012, 09:42:16 AM
Quote
Also, a big portion of firewood gathering is from old logging piles, pushed up to the side and left to rot. People will go in behind the loggers and clean up burnable materials, is that theft too? Is that akin to poaching a monster bull elk? Should we execute them?
But that isn't the case in this scenario. He said he was cutting down snags. If it was a recently logged area that needed cleaning up, I bet it would have been open for firewood cutting. This area was closed. So the USFS obviously did not want firewood cutting to occur in this area, for whatever reason. That's up to them to decide. And I think a $400 fine is fair. A poached elk would cost a lot more than that.
Post by: bobcat on November 06, 2012, 09:44:32 AM
I guess a lot of people on here don't make mistakes. Good to know :tup:
I didn't get the impression that this was a mistake.
The only mistake was getting caught.
Post by: bigtex on November 06, 2012, 09:45:58 AM
Post by: fishseeker on November 06, 2012, 09:46:34 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 06, 2012, 09:49:58 AM
GEOCACHING Guidelines
Geocaching: is an activity where participants seek out locations or hidden containers, called "caches", using a variety of methods and clues that may include GPS (global positioning systems) other navigational aids. A typical cache may include a memento or prize, or be a waterproof container containing a logbook where the “Geocacher” or locator enters the date they found it.
Geocaching is often described as a "game of high-tech hide and seek," sharing many aspects of orienteering or treasure hunting.
Geocaching is not permitted in congressionally designated Wilderness Areas per FSM 2320, or in any other nationally designated areas such as national scenic areas, historic or scenic trails.
Geocaching is permissible in all other General Forest Areas provided there is no natural resource damage or vandalism to government facilities.
Geocaching is not permitted within areas designated as national historic landmarks, sites, or pre-historic sites.
When Geocaching, natural resources are not to be disturbed, nor are they allowed to be removed from NFS lands. That includes soil disturbance/digging, removal of vegetation, disturbance of natural features, etc. Avoid sensitive areas like wetlands or streams.
When Geocaching, historical artifacts or features are not to be disturbed or removed.
Geocaching shall not interfere with other permitted activities such as outfitter and guide designated campsites.
When Geocaching, motorized vehicle use and parking shall be in compliance with Colville National Forest travel regulations and Motor Vehicle Use Maps.
Geocaching via horseback is not permitted in developed recreation sites other than those designated for equestrian use.
Geocachers are not required to have a permit provided that they are in-compliance with all other FS regulations and policy concerning group size and fees.
Please label Geocaches as such to avoid any confusion or safety concerns.
LMAO!!!! :yike:
Post by: rtspring on November 06, 2012, 09:53:35 AM
The USFS goes around after each hunting season and picks up all the cut wood from camps!! i have seen it many times over the years!! What do they do with it? i bet it goes straight to some lazy guys house!!!
I burn every stick of wood I cut for this exact reason, But we the commom folk cant hault it out, but they can??? see the light people, we are being screwed!!!
RTSPRING
Post by: Curly on November 06, 2012, 09:54:41 AM
The USFS officer was a jerk for calling Jess and the rest of the people from Republic inbreds.
Post by: ICEMAN on November 06, 2012, 09:58:42 AM
The USFS officer was a jerk for calling Jess and the rest of the people from Republic inbreds.
Well, could there be any bit of truth to the statement? :dunno:
:yike: :chuckle: JUST KIDDING GUYS!!!! DONT KILL ME!!!!!
I like bobcat's reply too. Sometimes there are reasons for a closure to wood cutting, and it does appear that this was the main reason for the citation.
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 09:59:42 AM
QuoteAlso, a big portion of firewood gathering is from old logging piles, pushed up to the side and left to rot. People will go in behind the loggers and clean up burnable materials, is that theft too? Is that akin to poaching a monster bull elk? Should we execute them?
But that isn't the case in this scenario. He said he was cutting down snags. If it was a recently logged area that needed cleaning up, I bet it would have been open for firewood cutting. This area was closed. So the USFS obviously did not want firewood cutting to occur in this area, for whatever reason. That's up to them to decide. And I think a $400 fine is fair. A poached elk would cost a lot more than that.
That is a lot of assumptions - and I don't give the FS that much credit either. Like the other poster said they are full of anti's.
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 10:04:59 AM
You people are thieves too you know, you are stealing a resource. That resource is money directly out of the coffers of WA state general fund. Don't make me go back to all the discovery pass threads and quote you to this thread :chuckle:
Post by: Buckmark on November 06, 2012, 10:09:13 AM
I'd like ot add a little more here.RT, purchase a firewood permit and you can take it home....in my area they are $20.00 bucks for up to 4 cords...even for common folk.
The USFS goes around after each hunting season and picks up all the cut wood from camps!! i have seen it many times over the years!! What do they do with it? i bet it goes straight to some lazy guys house!!!
I burn every stick of wood I cut for this exact reason, But we the commom folk cant hault it out, but they can??? see the light people, we are being screwed!!!
RTSPRING
This thread is all about Ethics....on both sides...
Post by: rtspring on November 06, 2012, 10:19:18 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 10:25:57 AM
Post by: rtspring on November 06, 2012, 10:31:23 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 06, 2012, 10:37:36 AM
open til the end of the month in some places
season's? Why?
Post by: bigtex on November 06, 2012, 10:39:49 AM
I have permits! But wood cuttting is closed! You have to leave it in camp.
Take it home. The chances of you being caught by Blair and Steve this late in the season are very minimal.
Also to your previous post. They leave it there for others to use.
Steve (Roberson out of Cle Elum) retired early this summer
Post by: Woodchuck on November 06, 2012, 10:49:03 AM
Cuz it was closed for so long through the summer.open til the end of the month in some places
season's? Why?
Post by: clindsayrun on November 06, 2012, 12:35:24 PM
Please find your tin foil hats and climb back down into your bunker... we'll call you when it's okay to come out.
Post by: MountainWalk on November 06, 2012, 12:55:29 PM
Quote
...yet another anti-LE post...
Please find your tin foil hats and climb back down into your bunker... we'll call you when it's okay to come out.
Wonder if it came down to martial law, how many of the "letter of the law" people would do as told, and stay in their houses and to surrender all arms. After all, it would be the law right?
Post by: clindsayrun on November 06, 2012, 01:03:31 PM
Post by: CedarPants on November 06, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 06, 2012, 04:27:54 PM
Talking about something crude that a law enforcement officer said while doing his job does not make this guy anti-law enforcement. Not sure why you would make that assumption clindsayrun
:yeah:
I can't think of a single good reason for him to say the Republic office are all inbreed. That is what this thread is about afterall no?
Post by: clindsayrun on November 06, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
I feel the general sentiment of these threads are reactionary and inflammatory. Someone else already said it, but the pitchforks and torches seem to come out for these threads... therefore I consider these threads anti law enforcement in nature. It doesn't seem like a big leap to me...
Post by: CedarPants on November 06, 2012, 05:23:54 PM
The gentleman reports the comment to the police department.
Now, is this guy anti-law enforcement for reporting it? Should he just shut up and quit whining? Is he just some guy looking for revenge because he's pissed he got caught?
Post by: bigtex on November 06, 2012, 05:30:40 PM
I personally have a hard time believing this whole story, especially about the inbred and scheduling part.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 06, 2012, 06:01:29 PM
One thing, USFS Officers (like most in natural resource law enforcement) set their own schedules, and there is really no need to tell the local offce their schedule since they don't actually work for the ranger district. Try calling up a USFS Ranger Station and ask when the LEO will be in next, most likely you'll get a response like "no clue, he/she does her own thing and shows up here when they can"
I personally have a hard time believing this whole story, especially about the inbred and scheduling part.
Bigtex, do you know this guy ? I do and think it's very possible he would say it..............
Post by: jess on November 07, 2012, 12:00:23 AM
Post by: Curly on November 07, 2012, 07:16:57 AM
Post by: villageidiot on November 09, 2012, 08:50:26 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 09, 2012, 08:54:55 AM
I see no difference in getting a ticket for stealing a quart of sea water in the middle of the Pacific Ocean from endangered fish. There is plenty of it. There are also billions of cords of wood rotting but you are not allowed to use them. But as some say IT IS THE LAW
The permits pay for services. If I buy a permit and you don't, you're stealing from both of us. Our national forest are pay to play just like anything else. When we break our leg up there, we expect someone to come find us. When we find a meth lab, we expect someone to dress up in a silly white suit and get rid of it. If you want heat your house with wood that's really, really cheap, but the permit, go to the right area, and cut it legally.
Post by: fishseeker on November 09, 2012, 09:39:56 AM
Post by: KFhunter on November 09, 2012, 09:44:59 AM
I see no difference in getting a ticket for stealing a quart of sea water in the middle of the Pacific Ocean from endangered fish. There is plenty of it. There are also billions of cords of wood rotting but you are not allowed to use them. But as some say IT IS THE LAW
The permits pay for services. If I buy a permit and you don't, you're stealing from both of us. Our national forest are pay to play just like anything else. When we break our leg up there, we expect someone to come find us. When we find a meth lab, we expect someone to dress up in a silly white suit and get rid of it. If you want heat your house with wood that's really, really cheap, but the permit, go to the right area, and cut it legally.
Did you buy a discover pass? Would you report someone if they didn't have one in their window when probably they should have?
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 09, 2012, 09:54:04 AM
Post by: KFhunter on November 09, 2012, 09:58:07 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 09, 2012, 05:04:20 PM
Post by: CedarPants on November 09, 2012, 05:53:49 PM
Question to all about this post. We have freedom of speech, but does a LEO have the same rights, while on DUTY, to say what he/she feels like saying, as we do, irregardless of the ticket ? Any LEO on here that can fill us in ?
Yes they do have that right. Your rights aren't removed by virtue of employment.
Their decision to exercise those rights however can and will result in their termination if necessary.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 09, 2012, 06:03:41 PM
Question to all about this post. We have freedom of speech, but does a LEO have the same rights, while on DUTY, to say what he/she feels like saying, as we do, irregardless of the ticket ? Any LEO on here that can fill us in ?
Yes they do have that right. Your rights aren't removed by virtue of employment.
Their decision to exercise those rights however can and will result in their termination if necessary.
Kinda what I was thinking. I, personally don't care what anybody says.
Post by: Cap.Silver on November 09, 2012, 06:16:34 PM
Post by: RifleRidge on November 09, 2012, 07:07:29 PM
:fire.:
Post by: mfswallace on November 09, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
Post by: RifleRidge on November 09, 2012, 07:37:15 PM
But if you don't know, you don't know.... :dunno:...... :yike:
Post by: KFhunter on November 11, 2012, 10:28:11 AM
Question to all about this post. We have freedom of speech, but does a LEO have the same rights, while on DUTY, to say what he/she feels like saying, as we do, irregardless of the ticket ? Any LEO on here that can fill us in ?
Yes they do have that right. Your rights aren't removed by virtue of employment.
Their decision to exercise those rights however can and will result in their termination if necessary.
Kinda what I was thinking. I, personally don't care what anybody says.
Policy - It's a bitch :chuckle:
Post by: mfswallace on November 11, 2012, 10:55:39 AM
Suppose so!.. Like I have said before, " ignorance is no excuse to the law "...
But if you don't know, you don't know.... :dunno:...... :yike:
He did know!!
Fine him, take his saw and truck that he was transporting the illegal wood in, then he can't break the laws he doesn't agree with and steal from me or you!!
I don't believe a word Jess says!!!
If he will knowingly break the law why would he not lie about the encounter to make himself feel better and shift the focus away from his illegal activities??
He knows the officer can't defend himself on here and even if he did a majority of people on here wouldn't believe him anyway... :twocents:
Post by: BK Dave on November 11, 2012, 12:58:32 PM
Post by: bigtex on November 11, 2012, 05:11:24 PM
Unlike WDFW and DNR, the federal natural resource law enforcement agencies (USFS, USFWS, BLM, NPS) very rarely have officers working in a state that they are native to. It can literally take a career for a federal officer to get back "home", many never do. For the USFS it use to be that you could work in a ranger district and essentially work into a LEO position, many times in that district, however those days are gone. With the advent of the internet and other entities the large majority of federal officers are not working in their home states. To go even further, USFS LE management within the past two years stripped all hiring authority away from local USFS LE supervisors and gave it to HR in DC, USFS is moving towards diversity hiring and this is one way they did it. So for example this past year the USFS Cle Elum LEO position came open, 3 years ago this position would have been filled by the USFS Patrol Captain in Wenatchee. However currently the USFS Patrol Captains simply forward a "best-of" list to HR in DC, and it is HR that currently makes the decision. And currently USFS has given a big priority towards hiring vets and minorities. So if your a USFS Patrol Captain and want a local game warden or county deputy to fill a LEO position, all you can do is forward their name on and hope.
Now before the change with the USFS there were quite a few Patrol Captains who would hire local county deputies into USFS LEO positions, however it still wasn't uncommon to bring someone in from 2,000 miles away.
If you were to ask most law enforcement officers for NPS, USFS, USFWS, and BLM how many different duty stations they have worked they could probably list several states. And to add to it, many have worked for several different agencies. The NPS has always been be the breeding grounds for the other agencies. And just to show a state example, WDFW has been doing a lot of out-of-state recruting for fish and wildlife officer positions and within the past 4 years hired several officers from out of state.
So to simply say an officer is the way he is because they are not local, is not right. Because a large majority of your federal, and possibly even state officers aren't local.
Post by: BK Dave on November 11, 2012, 05:18:56 PM
Post by: csaaphill on November 11, 2012, 05:23:56 PM
you guys who post the law is the law get caught at something some time and say the same thing then.
ALso since the Law is the Law when the Democraps come get your guns you turn em in if not your violating the Law :bash:
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 11, 2012, 05:25:29 PM
There was a comment on here about this USFS Officer being from "Kalifornia", don't care if that's true or not but I want to provide some knowledge.
Unlike WDFW and DNR, the federal natural resource law enforcement agencies (USFS, USFWS, BLM, NPS) very rarely have officers working in a state that they are native to. It can literally take a career for a federal officer to get back "home", many never do. For the USFS it use to be that you could work in a ranger district and essentially work into a LEO position, many times in that district, however those days are gone. With the advent of the internet and other entities the large majority of federal officers are not working in their home states. To go even further, USFS LE management within the past two years stripped all hiring authority away from local USFS LE supervisors and gave it to HR in DC, USFS is moving towards diversity hiring and this is one way they did it. So for example this past year the USFS Cle Elum LEO position came open, 3 years ago this position would have been filled by the USFS Patrol Captain in Wenatchee. However currently the USFS Patrol Captains simply forward a "best-of" list to HR in DC, and it is HR that currently makes the decision. And currently USFS has given a big priority towards hiring vets and minorities. So if your a USFS Patrol Captain and want a local game warden or county deputy to fill a LEO position, all you can do is forward their name on and hope.
Now before the change with the USFS there were quite a few Patrol Captains who would hire local county deputies into USFS LEO positions, however it still wasn't uncommon to bring someone in from 2,000 miles away.
If you were to ask most law enforcement officers for NPS, USFS, USFWS, and BLM how many different duty stations they have worked they could probably list several states. And to add to it, many have worked for several different agencies. The NPS has always been be the breeding grounds for the other agencies. And just to show a state example, WDFW has been doing a lot of out-of-state recruting for fish and wildlife officer positions and within the past 4 years hired several officers from out of state.
So to simply say an officer is the way he is because they are not local, is not right. Because a large majority of your federal, and possibly even state officers aren't local.
He went to school in Kalifornia to be a biologist. There were no jobs available for him after he graduated. So he just started going through all the federal jobs available and found the LEO job in Republic and took it with zero experience in law enforcement. This is straight from his mouth as I have met him and talked to him for an hour when he was looking for wood thieves up on Vulcan Mtn 2 years ago.
Post by: bigtex on November 11, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
There was a comment on here about this USFS Officer being from "Kalifornia", don't care if that's true or not but I want to provide some knowledge.
Unlike WDFW and DNR, the federal natural resource law enforcement agencies (USFS, USFWS, BLM, NPS) very rarely have officers working in a state that they are native to. It can literally take a career for a federal officer to get back "home", many never do. For the USFS it use to be that you could work in a ranger district and essentially work into a LEO position, many times in that district, however those days are gone. With the advent of the internet and other entities the large majority of federal officers are not working in their home states. To go even further, USFS LE management within the past two years stripped all hiring authority away from local USFS LE supervisors and gave it to HR in DC, USFS is moving towards diversity hiring and this is one way they did it. So for example this past year the USFS Cle Elum LEO position came open, 3 years ago this position would have been filled by the USFS Patrol Captain in Wenatchee. However currently the USFS Patrol Captains simply forward a "best-of" list to HR in DC, and it is HR that currently makes the decision. And currently USFS has given a big priority towards hiring vets and minorities. So if your a USFS Patrol Captain and want a local game warden or county deputy to fill a LEO position, all you can do is forward their name on and hope.
Now before the change with the USFS there were quite a few Patrol Captains who would hire local county deputies into USFS LEO positions, however it still wasn't uncommon to bring someone in from 2,000 miles away.
If you were to ask most law enforcement officers for NPS, USFS, USFWS, and BLM how many different duty stations they have worked they could probably list several states. And to add to it, many have worked for several different agencies. The NPS has always been be the breeding grounds for the other agencies. And just to show a state example, WDFW has been doing a lot of out-of-state recruting for fish and wildlife officer positions and within the past 4 years hired several officers from out of state.
So to simply say an officer is the way he is because they are not local, is not right. Because a large majority of your federal, and possibly even state officers aren't local.
He went to school in Kalifornia to be a biologist. There were no jobs available for him after he graduated. So he just started going through all the federal jobs available and found the LEO job in Republic and took it with zero experience in law enforcement. This is straight from his mouth as I have met him and talked to him for an hour when he was looking for wood thieves up on Vulcan Mtn 2 years ago.
And unfortunately Campmeat that is the way the USFS has been going. There have been many current LEO's passed over for people with no LE experience because they are vets, meet a certain demographic, are older/younger, etc. You can have someone with 20+ years of LE experience struggling to get to an USFS LE interview, and another who may not even want to get into USFS LE get the gig.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 11, 2012, 07:12:12 PM
There was a comment on here about this USFS Officer being from "Kalifornia", don't care if that's true or not but I want to provide some knowledge.
Unlike WDFW and DNR, the federal natural resource law enforcement agencies (USFS, USFWS, BLM, NPS) very rarely have officers working in a state that they are native to. It can literally take a career for a federal officer to get back "home", many never do. For the USFS it use to be that you could work in a ranger district and essentially work into a LEO position, many times in that district, however those days are gone. With the advent of the internet and other entities the large majority of federal officers are not working in their home states. To go even further, USFS LE management within the past two years stripped all hiring authority away from local USFS LE supervisors and gave it to HR in DC, USFS is moving towards diversity hiring and this is one way they did it. So for example this past year the USFS Cle Elum LEO position came open, 3 years ago this position would have been filled by the USFS Patrol Captain in Wenatchee. However currently the USFS Patrol Captains simply forward a "best-of" list to HR in DC, and it is HR that currently makes the decision. And currently USFS has given a big priority towards hiring vets and minorities. So if your a USFS Patrol Captain and want a local game warden or county deputy to fill a LEO position, all you can do is forward their name on and hope.
Now before the change with the USFS there were quite a few Patrol Captains who would hire local county deputies into USFS LEO positions, however it still wasn't uncommon to bring someone in from 2,000 miles away.
If you were to ask most law enforcement officers for NPS, USFS, USFWS, and BLM how many different duty stations they have worked they could probably list several states. And to add to it, many have worked for several different agencies. The NPS has always been be the breeding grounds for the other agencies. And just to show a state example, WDFW has been doing a lot of out-of-state recruting for fish and wildlife officer positions and within the past 4 years hired several officers from out of state.
So to simply say an officer is the way he is because they are not local, is not right. Because a large majority of your federal, and possibly even state officers aren't local.
He went to school in Kalifornia to be a biologist. There were no jobs available for him after he graduated. So he just started going through all the federal jobs available and found the LEO job in Republic and took it with zero experience in law enforcement. This is straight from his mouth as I have met him and talked to him for an hour when he was looking for wood thieves up on Vulcan Mtn 2 years ago.
And unfortunately Campmeat that is the way the USFS has been going. There have been many current LEO's passed over for people with no LE experience because they are vets, meet a certain demographic, are older/younger, etc. You can have someone with 20+ years of LE experience struggling to get to an USFS LE interview, and another who may not even want to get into USFS LE get the gig.
I know it's just a fact. Thanks.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on November 12, 2012, 06:35:05 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on November 12, 2012, 06:51:08 AM
Question to all about this post. We have freedom of speech, but does a LEO have the same rights, while on DUTY, to say what he/she feels like saying, as we do, irregardless of the ticket ? Any LEO on here that can fill us in ?
I don't think that Freedom of Speech applies as a blanket to all people during their time of employment. What would happen if you worked at McDonalds and greeted people with a big:
Quote
Welcome to McDonalds. Why don't you fat asses *censored* the *censored* off and waddle your *censored* down to Burger King
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 12, 2012, 07:01:46 AM
Question to all about this post. We have freedom of speech, but does a LEO have the same rights, while on DUTY, to say what he/she feels like saying, as we do, irregardless of the ticket ? Any LEO on here that can fill us in ?
I don't think that Freedom of Speech applies as a blanket to all people during their time of employment. What would happen if you worked at McDonalds and greeted people with a big:QuoteWelcome to McDonalds. Why don't you fat asses *censored* the *censored* off and waddle your *censored* down to Burger King
Obviously if your employed you won't say something like that if your working at McDonalds. I've heard all kinds of " words " come from LEO and I could careless, I doesn't bother me one bit.
Post by: Fishmasterdan on November 28, 2012, 12:45:34 PM
I realize that the law is the law, but taking dead trees that were probably on the ground anyway, I don't view as "stealing" and certainly don't put on anywhere near the same level as poaching an elk! I'd think of it more as doing everybody a favor but that's just me...
It's not a question of clearing dead trees. The permits pay for the maintenance of our resources. If we don't get the money through permit sales, we either have to pay higher taxes or we don't get the services. My NW Forest Pass just went up another $5. He's using the resource and you and I are paying the bill. That might be OK with you, but it's not OK with me. He's making my forests cost me more. That's BS. It's a pay to play situation and he didn't. I'm glad that we're now getting $400 instead of the $40 he should've paid in the beginning.
Coming from someone that wants to be in a position of power this is shocking. Shouldn't we be trying to eliminate ridiculous rules and laws, and stop nickle and dimeing our citizens?? Permits to use OUR own lands should be abolished, Forest passes to use OUR own lands should be abolished. What resource is he stealing from you?? Living trees for harvest is what we (the people) have invested in not dead snags. Profit making from OUR resource's should be paying our bills, not punishing OUR citizens for trying to stay warm. I do agree to give him a ticket for breaking the law but our people in power should be trying to eliminate stupid laws. There should not be a permit for wood gathering unless its is for profit period. It like saying I can't use the dead lawn clippings from my lawn for composting. That dead grass is OUR resource!!!
Post by: Special T on November 28, 2012, 01:02:42 PM
I have read this book and it documents what Campeat, Big Tex and other have said about the USFS. The USFS USED to be a shining example of how a gov agency could be run. It is now a hollow shell of its once great role. :twocents:
Post by: Jingles on November 28, 2012, 04:52:33 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 28, 2012, 05:31:26 PM
Post by: Special T on November 28, 2012, 06:54:17 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on November 28, 2012, 07:28:23 PM
The Tinder Box: How Politically Correct Ideology Destroyed the U.S. Forest Service by Christopher Burchfield (Feb 28, 2012)
Sounds like a great book, KCLS and Sno-Isle don't seem to have it
Post by: Special T on November 29, 2012, 07:22:31 AM
Post by: logger on November 29, 2012, 08:48:11 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on November 29, 2012, 09:00:45 AM
So what you're saying is they are doing away with the good ole boy network? Bout time
For the "Good ol' (libbie) Girl" network? You May want to read this if you really feel that way.
The Tinder Box: How Politically Correct Ideology Destroyed the U.S. Forest Service by Christopher Burchfield (Feb 28, 2012)
I have read this book and it documents what Campeat, Big Tex and other have said about the USFS. The USFS USED to be a shining example of how a gov agency could be run. It is now a hollow shell of its once great role. :twocents:
Post by: logger on December 12, 2012, 09:55:50 PM
The Tinder Box: How Politically Correct Ideology Destroyed the U.S. Forest Service by Christopher Burchfield (Feb 28, 2012)got the book today and so far I am very impressed!!! thanks for the recomendation.
I have read this book and it documents what Campeat, Big Tex and other have said about the USFS. The USFS USED to be a shining example of how a gov agency could be run. It is now a hollow shell of its once great role. :twocents:
Post by: Special T on December 13, 2012, 07:23:04 AM
Post by: seansfire on December 17, 2012, 09:13:57 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 17, 2012, 09:32:15 PM
you really want a laugh try meeting the 80 pound dipstick that patrols the gate to staircase by lake cushman. wow. twig with a badge and either a huge chip on his shoulder or small man syndrome.
Isn't that National Park Service? I know there was a smaller NPS LE Ranger at Staircase last year