Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 03:44:31 PM
This article written by gun writer Joe Barrett perfectly explains my personal experiences and why I decided to go with a 9mm as my primary carry weapon (though I like all the rounds). I am sure there are other well written articles out there in the opposition.
http://joebarrett.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/9mm-versus-45-cal-you-be-the-judge-but-think-about-it-first/ (http://joebarrett.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/9mm-versus-45-cal-you-be-the-judge-but-think-about-it-first/)
Post by: h20hunter on January 09, 2013, 03:48:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 03:59:06 PM
Post by: Special T on January 09, 2013, 04:19:17 PM
Post by: C-Money on January 09, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
Post by: Arnbo on January 09, 2013, 04:48:16 PM
His third tour before being killed. Told me stories of seeing the enemy shot with 9mm and still continue to return fire.Nothing can be said about that experience.Friends do not let friends carry 380 s either... :twocents:
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 09, 2013, 05:05:24 PM
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
Post by: Bob33 on January 09, 2013, 05:09:36 PM
Everything isn't equal. :twocents:
Post by: Bigshooter on January 09, 2013, 05:10:07 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 05:11:57 PM
.Friends do not let friends carry 380 s either... :twocents:So when you are walking around like this where do you carry your .45? :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on January 09, 2013, 05:14:44 PM
I'm staying clear no matter whst he's carring.
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 05:15:57 PM
:yike::chuckle:
I'm staying clear no matter whst he's carring.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 06:04:41 PM
I will take my brothers advice and avoid 9 mm as a man who has been in
His third tour before being killed. Told me stories of seeing the enemy shot with 9mm and still continue to return fire.Nothing can be said about that experience.Friends do not let friends carry 380 s either... :twocents:
Sorry to hear that your brother was killed.
The reason this happens with the enemy is because they generally only give us FMJ/Hardball ammo (the primary issue) and often guys don't get a lot of training with pistols (as opposed to rifles) so they are not always getting vital hits.
Make a solid hit with a 9mm modern defense round and the bad guy won't feel like fighting.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 06:11:54 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 06:12:47 PM
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 06:14:06 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Is that why the majority of Law Enforcement carry .40s? :)
Post by: jackelope on January 09, 2013, 06:14:07 PM
Agreed. This is why I bought a 9mm on my 21st birthday and not a 40 or 45. I would rather have 16 rounds vs 7 or 8.I have 15 rounds of .40
Dunno.
Post by: jackelope on January 09, 2013, 06:15:43 PM
My .40 holds 1 less round than the same gun in 9mm. I don't follow your 1st reason.One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 06:17:54 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Its more about the low ball bid for the contract than by choice, kind of like buying vehicles for the dept. patrol cars, they don't always get a choice.One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Is that why the majority of Law Enforcement carry .40s? :)
Several of my buddy's carry FiveSevens for personal defense weapons but have different dept. issue pieces.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 06:20:21 PM
My .40 holds 1 less round than the same gun in 9mm. I don't follow your 1st reason.One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
I will take the extra round in the same gun :twocents:.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 06:27:32 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Is that why the majority of Law Enforcement carry .40s? :)
"Because they got conned into it.
Pistol gunsmiths and a handful of manufacturers were looking for a semi-automatic pistol round that would have the ballistics equal to the 357 magnum. They needed a rimless case to shoot through their auto-pistols. After playing with different designs, they came-up with the 10mm. . The gun was interesting but never caught-on until a guy started carrying one on the show Miami Vice.
So, the the 10mm started to catch-on. An semi-auto pistol with 357 magnum ballistics! The FBI took the lead and determined that they would switch from their S&W model 19 and model 66 revolvers to a 10mm auto-pistol. S&W didn't want to lose their FBI contract so they started building the 10mm. There were several problems...the guns were falling apart and many agents couldn't handle the recoil.
So, the engineers at Smith & Wesson came-up with a solution.They CUT the case of the 10mm back and reduced the loadings for it. Now this would be a 10mm short, right? With less velocity and less energy. It really was a wimpy 10mm, but instead of calling it the 10mm short, they came up with a new name - the 40 S&W.
Of course the problem here is that it's really not what the FBI and law enforcement agencies really wanted in the first place. But after they proverbially got egg on their faces over adopting a new pistol cartridge AND pistol without doing any real "trials" to determine if it was any good...they just went with what was before them, the 40 S&W.
And that's the story of the 40 S&W. It was a result of a failed attempt by Smith & Wesson and the FBI to develop a super-duper auto-loading pistol round...that agents couldn't handle and that broke their guns in a short period of time.
Major law enforcement agencies usually do what the Feds do. So if it's good enough for J. Edgar Hoover's men...then by golly, it's good enough for the rest of the men and women that fight for truth, justice and the American way."
:chuckle:
Post by: dontgetcrabs on January 09, 2013, 06:29:41 PM
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 06:34:33 PM
I started out shooting the S&W Model 15, .38 special, then carried the Beretta 9mm. I hunt with a .44 sidearm. I know I'm not special or really good but the .40 doesn't "seem" to me to have much recoil at all and I can put as many rounds in the 10 ring with it, just as quickly as I could with my Beretta. :dunno: Now I will give you the price difference, but since I got a couple of thousand free rounds from a good friend, I never gave the cost any thought. :)
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 06:44:36 PM
Yea they are just stupid and got conned. :chuckle:
I started out shooting the S&W Model 15, .38 special, then carried the Beretta 9mm. I hunt with a .44 sidearm. I know I'm not special or really good but the .40 doesn't "seem" to me to have much recoil at all and I can put as many rounds in the 10 ring with it, just as quickly as I could with my Beretta. :dunno: Now I will give you the price difference, but since I got a couple of thousand free rounds from a good friend, I never gave the cost any thought. :)
Yeah.. I just typed in "Why does law enforcement use .40" in google and that was the response I got. :chuckle:
Of a different note when I did that search I actually saw a number of articles of note and it appears many big city police forces are switching to the 9mm for many of the reasons I stated above.
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 06:48:38 PM
So what 9mm ammo do you like to practice with and what do you like to carry?
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 07:02:37 PM
Ok, you've convinced me just on the ammo price alone, I think I'll be buying the S&W M&P Shield in the 9mm. :tup:Lots of choices in 9mm, hand size and magazine style makes a difference in a lot of cases.
So what 9mm ammo do you like to practice with and what do you like to carry?
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 07:14:29 PM
Ok, you've convinced me just on the ammo price alone, I think I'll be buying the S&W M&P Shield in the 9mm. :tup:
So what 9mm ammo do you like to practice with and what do you like to carry?
You are going to love the Shield whether you get it in .40 or 9mm.. great little weapon.
I use the 135 +P Critical Duty Ammo for my larger guns... My wife uses the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr JHP and I use the same one but +P in the shield
For practice ammo I use just about anything I can get my hands on.. (and of course I practice with our carry ammo as much as we can afford)... it eats it all. The only stuff I ever had an issue with was Buffalo Bore and that was two rounds out of 100.
Post by: Machias on January 09, 2013, 07:36:10 PM
Post by: Bofire on January 09, 2013, 07:49:06 PM
I carry my 1911 45 cause I can clear a pin table in 2 seconds or less and bounce 1/2 gallon anti freeze jugs at 75-100 yards. It carries easy, is flat, hits hard, and I trust it. An easy couple thousand rounds thru the current carry and it works like new or better. I have owned all three, owned glocks, hammer drops, double/single action, Sigs, S&W, Berettas,Brownings, came back to the 1911's, still think its the best ever. Carry what you can shoot!
All the opinion about killing performance of various rounds is bull crap, carry what you can shoot!!
then learn to shoot it.
Carl
Post by: jackelope on January 09, 2013, 07:51:29 PM
Must have been Tubbs With the 10mm??
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 07:56:11 PM
Sonny Crockett carrried a S&W 4506 .45acp.
Must have been Tubbs With the 10mm??
Sonny used the "Bren Ten" 10mm the first two years (except for the pilot episode he used a SIG P220).... they did modify the Bren Ten to fire .45 ACP blanks....so technically..yes..it was a 45. :chuckle:
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 09, 2013, 08:15:51 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
It's all personal preference, I'd shoot a tango into the ground with all three. Anyone who has spent time with a handgun knows how frikn fast a mag can be changed( Measured in low single digit seconds). I prefer mass.
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on January 09, 2013, 08:18:31 PM
enough said
Post by: GEARHEAD on January 09, 2013, 08:20:38 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 09, 2013, 08:21:11 PM
You need help! :chuckle: but if I had to guess he would stash it in the pack or in the front with the junk. :o
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 08:25:18 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
It's all personal preference, I'd shoot a tango into the ground with all three. Anyone who has spent time with a handgun knows how frikn fast a mag can be changed( Measured in low single digit seconds). I prefer mass.
I agree it's ultimately personal preference...each round has an edge at something and honestly it's probably all negligible in the ned....For me the speed/accuracy matter and the 9mm is simply faster. I know guys that are amazing shots with the .40 and .45 but they are even better shots with the 9mm..... All of it is fractions of a second but IMHO they add up in a real fire fight. It's not just the mag change that takes an extra fraction of a second but target reacquisition is a little longer.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 08:27:46 PM
a million years ago, i was the first on scene to an undercovers involved shooting at a bar in Pierce county. a hitman was hired to kill him, probably not even knowing he was a cop, well anyways, he walked into a bar at closing, walked right up to the officer,and pulled a .375, the officer was able to draw a little faster, as he was anticipating this , and pressed his 9mm to the mans heart and pulled the trigger. rather than dropping, the man, shot the officer, who had to runaway for a better position and the two exchanged abit of fire. the man was killed, but it took another half dozen winchester silvertips to end it. not sure i am a fan of winchester silver tips, they tend not to expand, but it was that incident that compelled me to go to a .40
Yep..it was the bullet... The old winchester silver tips were known for being garbage and responsible for many people moving away from 9mm
Post by: norsepeak on January 09, 2013, 08:27:58 PM
9mm=1.0
40= 1.47
45 acp= 1.51
10mm=1.88
and just for fun the 50 Cal. muzzleloader was 6.12 :chuckle:
So purely based on how much damage one can do vs. another the 10mm is the big dog for personal protection. Of course we run the numbers on anything to compare too.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2013, 08:32:17 PM
interestingly enough just two weeks ago my cousin and were discussing this very topic and did the math on them to determine the "lethality" of each one to base a decision on. The 9mm had a LF of 1.0 which was our baseline. Using kinetic energy and cross sectional density we came up with the following lethality chart.
9mm=1.0
40= 1.47
45 acp= 1.51
10mm=1.88
and just for fun the 50 Cal. muzzleloader was 6.12 :chuckle:
So purely based on how much damage one can do vs. another the 10mm is the big dog for personal protection. Of course we run the numbers on anything to compare too.
Love my 10mm
Post by: hillbilli on January 09, 2013, 08:48:23 PM
Handgun bullets are a bit like arrows-it only matters what you actually cut or break. At handgun velocities "shock' and energy numbers dont mean anything. If you doubt me read up on how many cops hit in the vest are actually stopped by it.. Good Hollowpoints typically open from 1.5 to 2x diameter.. and the rounds I have looked at from gelatin tests and real critters vary even among the same bullet design depending on what they hit, and each bullet is different. There is overlap between a 9 that does open to x2, and a .45 that happens to only open to 1.5. If you go with the average expansion, and or consider that once in a while even the best bullets you can buy will fail to open or barely open because of things they hit- then the larger calibers do on average cut wider holes. Just like with arrows where a broadhead just a fraction wider nicks an artery, or spinal cord- it may produce radically different results- but it also means with a center hit the results will almost always be the same.
No round is perfect, and handguns are generally crappy at stopping folks. With good hollowpoints the differences really arent great between actual permanent cavity between 9, 40, and 45.. Whether the difference that is there is worth the trade off is up to you. I can find multiple hit failures to stop with any of them, two that come to mind are 4 rounds and 7rds- in both cases frontal torso hits from .45 acp hollowpoints (both requiring headshots to stop the fight). You can of course go online and look up cop shootings and find other cases with 9 and .40. Why?? because at pistol velocities you arent depending on shock, etc to stop him. If you had shot him in the heart with an arrow how long would you expect him to still fight? Slap a good sleeper hold on someone and you will still see them fight 4-8 seconds.. and thats with blood flow cut off to the brain. So yes, even with a "perfect" hit, or multiples, that are not CNS hits- expect him to keep firing, especially under chemical influences. If he drops at the first torso hit-consider yourself lucky, and remember that a lot of 'stops' are psychological, not physical. Every person is different, and even the same dude will react to being hurt differently when drunk, or high, or pissed off..
I'm not a big fan of the 1911 for all day every day carry unless its an aluminum frame.. lot of weight. In a small compact gun i prefer a 9, as even in a ppk sized gun like my Kahr I can shoot rapid follow up shots.
Post by: splitshot on January 09, 2013, 08:50:11 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 08:54:01 PM
Sonny Crockett carrried a S&W 4506 .45acp.Maybe so but Chuck Norris would still kick his a$$!
Must have been Tubbs With the 10mm??
Post by: KFhunter on January 09, 2013, 08:55:23 PM
without taking into account what the intended use is and who will be swinging it.
Post by: huntnphool on January 09, 2013, 08:55:58 PM
but if I had to guess he would stash it in the pack or in the front with the junk. :oLMAO :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on January 09, 2013, 08:58:42 PM
or shorts and tee shirt
Post by: Mossy on January 09, 2013, 10:24:42 PM
Post by: high country on January 10, 2013, 05:50:12 AM
Post by: coachcw on January 10, 2013, 06:33:24 AM
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 10, 2013, 07:15:49 AM
Post by: C-Money on January 10, 2013, 12:12:33 PM
Post by: Fishstiq on January 10, 2013, 12:38:52 PM
1. Carry a gun. Make sure it shoots bullets.
2. Shoot bullets out of the gun regularly.
3. If a bad guy tries to kill you, shoot the bullets from your gun into the bad guy. Bonus points for hitting the bad guy someplace important.
Did I get it all? :dunno:
Post by: Alchase on January 10, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Is that why the majority of Law Enforcement carry .40s? :)
"Because they got conned into it.
Pistol gunsmiths and a handful of manufacturers were looking for a semi-automatic pistol round that would have the ballistics equal to the 357 magnum. They needed a rimless case to shoot through their auto-pistols. After playing with different designs, they came-up with the 10mm. . The gun was interesting but never caught-on until a guy started carrying one on the show Miami Vice.
So, the the 10mm started to catch-on. An semi-auto pistol with 357 magnum ballistics! The FBI took the lead and determined that they would switch from their S&W model 19 and model 66 revolvers to a 10mm auto-pistol. S&W didn't want to lose their FBI contract so they started building the 10mm. There were several problems...the guns were falling apart and many agents couldn't handle the recoil.
So, the engineers at Smith & Wesson came-up with a solution.They CUT the case of the 10mm back and reduced the loadings for it. Now this would be a 10mm short, right? With less velocity and less energy. It really was a wimpy 10mm, but instead of calling it the 10mm short, they came up with a new name - the 40 S&W.
Of course the problem here is that it's really not what the FBI and law enforcement agencies really wanted in the first place. But after they proverbially got egg on their faces over adopting a new pistol cartridge AND pistol without doing any real "trials" to determine if it was any good...they just went with what was before them, the 40 S&W.
And that's the story of the 40 S&W. It was a result of a failed attempt by Smith & Wesson and the FBI to develop a super-duper auto-loading pistol round...that agents couldn't handle and that broke their guns in a short period of time.
Major law enforcement agencies usually do what the Feds do. So if it's good enough for J. Edgar Hoover's men...then by golly, it's good enough for the rest of the men and women that fight for truth, justice and the American way."
:chuckle:
Actually the FBI took years of police reports on shootings, processed all those incidents, and came to the conclusion that 85% of the perpetrators shot by police with 38 cal and 9mm continued to fight. So thay looked for a round that had more "cavitation and penetration" in the wound cavity. Their determination was the 10mm fit this bill. They also instituted the Mozambique Drill (double tap) into their training at the same time.
Then three years later, using the data sinse the 10mm was issued, they found that perpetrators continued to fight, for a different reason, because only the first round found its target. The followup rounds were missing do to recoil.
So the conclusion was a round with "cavitation and panetration" close to a 10mm, with a more handleable recoil for followup shots.
This introduced the .40 cal. :hello:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 10, 2013, 07:15:10 PM
One needs to ask their self.
What would I rather be shot with? 9mm, .40 or .45?
Then go to the other end of the spectrum and holster it up. A 9mm may expand but a .45 bullet sure isn't going to get any smaller.
I would rather start at 230grs and .451 caliber. Than 125grs and .355 caliber.
I'd rather not be shot by any of them. :chuckle:
However, if I ask myself this...would I rather the bad guy be holding a 9mm, .40 or .45.... I would rather him have the .40 or .45...two reasons.... less rounds and probably slower or less accuracy from the shooter. :twocents:
Is that why the majority of Law Enforcement carry .40s? :)
"Because they got conned into it.
Pistol gunsmiths and a handful of manufacturers were looking for a semi-automatic pistol round that would have the ballistics equal to the 357 magnum. They needed a rimless case to shoot through their auto-pistols. After playing with different designs, they came-up with the 10mm. . The gun was interesting but never caught-on until a guy started carrying one on the show Miami Vice.
So, the the 10mm started to catch-on. An semi-auto pistol with 357 magnum ballistics! The FBI took the lead and determined that they would switch from their S&W model 19 and model 66 revolvers to a 10mm auto-pistol. S&W didn't want to lose their FBI contract so they started building the 10mm. There were several problems...the guns were falling apart and many agents couldn't handle the recoil.
So, the engineers at Smith & Wesson came-up with a solution.They CUT the case of the 10mm back and reduced the loadings for it. Now this would be a 10mm short, right? With less velocity and less energy. It really was a wimpy 10mm, but instead of calling it the 10mm short, they came up with a new name - the 40 S&W.
Of course the problem here is that it's really not what the FBI and law enforcement agencies really wanted in the first place. But after they proverbially got egg on their faces over adopting a new pistol cartridge AND pistol without doing any real "trials" to determine if it was any good...they just went with what was before them, the 40 S&W.
And that's the story of the 40 S&W. It was a result of a failed attempt by Smith & Wesson and the FBI to develop a super-duper auto-loading pistol round...that agents couldn't handle and that broke their guns in a short period of time.
Major law enforcement agencies usually do what the Feds do. So if it's good enough for J. Edgar Hoover's men...then by golly, it's good enough for the rest of the men and women that fight for truth, justice and the American way."
:chuckle:
Actually the FBI took years of police reports on shootings, processed all those incidents, and came to the conclusion that 85% of the perpetrators shot by police with 38 cal and 9mm continued to fight. So thay looked for a round that had more "cavitation and penetration" in the wound cavity. Their determination was the 10mm fit this bill. They also instituted the Mozambique Drill (double tap) into their training at the same time.
Then three years later, using the data sinse the 10mm was issued, they found that perpetrators continued to fight, for a different reason, because only the first round found its target. The followup rounds were missing do to recoil.
So the conclusion was a round with "cavitation and panetration" close to a 10mm, with a more handleable recoil for followup shots.
This introduced the .40 cal. :hello:
I don't disagree with you... then came modern defense ammo...and now many of them are moving back to the 9mm.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 10, 2013, 07:27:01 PM
.Friends do not let friends carry 380 s either... :twocents:So when you are walking around like this where do you carry your .45? :chuckle:
We could have done without that visual phool....... :chuckle:
Post by: marlin on January 10, 2013, 07:27:57 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 10, 2013, 07:30:55 PM
Just get all of them! I have .380, 9mm, 10mm, and .45 They all have their place. I dont see a need for .40 though, because I can download 10mm to .40 levels if I wanted to, but why would I? 10mm is King for sure.
:yeah:
I like the .40 but like you... I see no need for one if you have all the rounds you mentioned.
Post by: halfpipe88 on January 10, 2013, 07:52:48 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 10, 2013, 08:01:24 PM
What is so great about the critical defense ammo? It seems to be everybody's favorite.
I personally haven't used critical defense but I do have critical duty ammo. I mainly use Speer Gold Dot
Post by: DoubleJ on January 10, 2013, 08:45:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF)
Here's a list of ammo calibers he has tested and some other stuff too. I've lost hours watching these videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9/videos?flow=grid&view=1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9/videos?flow=grid&view=1)
Post by: dscubame on January 10, 2013, 08:50:15 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on January 10, 2013, 08:58:57 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 10, 2013, 09:16:14 PM
My 9mm is loaded with Gold Dot 124gn +P. Just trust them. I would switch to the Federal HST 124gn +P if I could find it.
Yep..that is the round I primarily use
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 10, 2013, 09:28:27 PM
Post by: jaymark6655 on January 11, 2013, 05:44:49 AM
"Then I did my own research and found something amazing: A 127 grain Winchester Ranger +P+ fired into bare ballistic gelatin will impact at 1210 feet per second, penetrate 12-14 inches, and expand to right around .70 inches. My favorite .45 ammo, Federal Hydra-shocks, will impact the same gelatin at a slower 800 feet per second, penetrate 12-14 inches and expand to right around .70 inches. Wait a minute, it sounds like these two rounds would pretty much cut the same wound path, right? This information supported what I’d been told by another group that conducted ammo test of pigs: You cannot tell a decent 9mm wound path from a decent .45 wound path."
But then he makes this statement.
"If you use the right 9mm ammo, you’ll get as much tissue damage as you would from a similar .45acp. That means my 9mm, if used correctly, will have the same stopping power as my old .40 cal."
The 40 is a whole different animal from either of those two rounds. Just because its in between on diameter means nothing as far as performance as he seems to assume. Fact is the 40 has a much higher velocity and therefore more energy than either of the other two rounds. Of course the 10mm is even more powerful in comparison, but so is a 308win which wasn't considered either.
My first carry gun was a 40. FBI didn't get dupped into picking this round, they did test same as military when making the choice to switch and since I couldn't afford to do my own research I am going to trust the guys that depend on their weapon and not just the ones that don't usually have a rifle as their primary with the pistol just being a back-up. Sure recoil sucks, but that is what pratice is for. Sure there are more powerful options like the 10, but I wanted to save some money on ammo and didn't care for that much ammo. Yes you can download a 10, but back in the day reloading for a Glock was a bad idea. Later I got a 45, 1911. Awesome gun, accurate. With all that weight, it seems to have no recoil. I can shoot it faster and more accurately than my dad's Glock 17. So if I had to choose between 9 and 45, I am would have to say 45. If the 45 was a Glock, I am sure this probably would change since the recoil of the lighter gun would might make a difference.
Real thing that bothers me the most is his penatration test was done with two different types of ammo. Just because they seem similar, doesn't mean they would be the same. I would trust the results a bit more if they were of the same manufacture. Ex Gold Dot 124 gr 9mm +P and 200 gr .45 +P
Post by: Bean Counter on January 11, 2013, 05:49:22 AM
9mm / .40 / .45 is a nice debate when you have the time on your hands but ultimately its better to have a .22mag than nothing at all. They will all put a bad guy down given a little time for him to bleed out.
Post by: high country on January 11, 2013, 07:13:05 AM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 08:10:20 AM
I am going to trust the guys that depend on their weapon
So you are going back to the 9mm like many police forces are today? ...with more sure to follow :chuckle:
Post by: jaymark6655 on January 11, 2013, 08:30:17 AM
I am going to trust the guys that depend on their weapon
So you are going back to the 9mm like many police forces are today? ...with more sure to follow :chuckle:
I am not sure about this, but I don't think most police forces have done an actual study like the FBI. They probably either use the 9 because ammo is cheaper or because the military does. I think most swat guys are using the 40 or 45 though.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 11, 2013, 09:48:41 AM
I am going to trust the guys that depend on their weapon
So you are going back to the 9mm like many police forces are today? ...with more sure to follow :chuckle:
I am not sure about this, but I don't think most police forces have done an actual study like the FBI. They probably either use the 9 because ammo is cheaper or because the military does. I think most swat guys are using the 40 or 45 though.
The L.A. Special Investigation Squad (SIS) uses one similar to mine....Kimber SIS .45 :)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi98.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl241%2FSS30ANV%2Fkimbersisrl-1_zpsc6095002.jpg&hash=4db7515e4952d2079a9714d354017d5e4716b819)
Post by: DoubleJ on January 11, 2013, 10:17:57 AM
Post by: cohoho on January 11, 2013, 10:27:59 AM
Again as stated a couple times, if you cannot hit where you want each and every time, get a gun you can hit the target with. Too many guys, I am sure we all have seen them at the range with their land cannons and can't hit the broad side of a barn - ever! And I mean ever! Their targets look like someone shot them with a very short scatter gun...... Not one grouping hits in the mix. But man will that boom, surely scare the heck out of someone coming at you in a bad situation. Or the flashy silver of their highly polished gun will reflect danger in the eyes of the assailant. :rolleyes:
Too me, it is all about control and rounds effectively on target where I place them.... Get the gun that you can control and put the rds where they count.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 10:45:53 AM
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88091 (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88091)
In Urey Patrick's "10mm Notes", he lays out why the FBI transitioned from the .38spl and 9mm and to the 10mm and .40S&W. He specifically stated that the FBI was very happy with the overall terminal effects of the .38spl in actual shootings, and that the 9mm was basically the same in terms of performance. What was the primary deal breaker for the FBI was the poor penetration ability of both calibers through auto glass. At that time, the .38spl JHP and the 9mm JHP simply were not able to meet the minimal 12" of penetration through auto glass. Bullet technology at the time could not over come this obstacle. Now.....almost all modern 9mm loads do well against auto glass.
If you look at independent testing from guys like Dr. Roberts it appears to do just as well as the .40S&W.
Post by: h20hunter on January 11, 2013, 10:48:32 AM
Coho pretty much summed it up. Use good ammo and all three will put the hurt on....however, you gotta put rounds where they count.
Post by: Wazukie on January 11, 2013, 11:15:01 AM
I really want a .357 mag but, I'm having trouble finding one that is 4", has 7rd capacity and in my price range.I know a lot of people do not like Taurus but my 4"tracker is a great shooter and very reliable, as is the other two Taurus pistols I own. Two stay in the discussion though, I will say I like my .45. 10+1 and very easy to carry and conceal.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 11:35:03 AM
I really want a .357 mag but, I'm having trouble finding one that is 4", has 7rd capacity and in my price range.I know a lot of people do not like Taurus but my 4"tracker is a great shooter and very reliable, as is the other two Taurus pistols I own. Two stay in the discussion though, I will say I like my .45. 10+1 and very easy to carry and conceal.
Nice Collection
Post by: huntnphool on January 11, 2013, 11:41:57 AM
Too me, it is all about control and rounds effectively on target where I place them.... Get the gun that you can control and put the rds where they count.Same argument on these sights over 243, 270, 7mm, 300wm etc, the 243 kills just as effectively as all the others when you hit the target, it's all about shot placement.
In the Fort Hood shooting Hasan killed 13 people and wounded 30 with a relatively small caliber 5.7x28, before being put down with 5 shots from a military issued sidearm, and it didn't kill him. No idea what caliber it was. :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on January 11, 2013, 12:01:05 PM
I've come to believe, based primarily on hunting and killing big game, that there are a few laws of firearms and killing that generally apply to these topics:
1. Any gun is better than no gun.
2. No gun or bullet will instantly stop a living creature 100 percent of the time. Unless a spinal column or near spinal column hit is made, the creature may run/keep coming. I've seen too many lung/heart shot animals survive for 5 to 10 seconds (or longer) to believe that it wouldn't apply to humans in most instances as well.
3. Everything being equal, bigger bullets are better than smaller bullets. If shot placement is all that matters, we'd hunt elephants with .22s.
4. Everything isn't equal.
I believe there is a small advantage in stopping powder to larger caliber handguns versus smaller caliber handguns. However, calibers like 9mm have other advantages such as lower cost of ammunition which equals more practice, milder recoil, and increased magazine capacity which can tip the scales in favor of them.
Of far greater importance than caliber is the ability to think clearly and use whatever weapon you choose effectively when it matters. :twocents:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 12:14:05 PM
These types of threads always generate lots of interest, be it the 9mm vs 10mm vs 45, or the 270 vs 30-06 vs. 458, etc.
I've come to believe, based primarily on hunting and killing big game, that there are a few laws of firearms and killing that generally apply to these topics:
1. Any gun is better than no gun.
2. No gun or bullet will instantly stop a living creature 100 percent of the time. Unless a spinal column or near spinal column hit is made, the creature may run/keep coming. I've seen too many lung/heart shot animals survive for 5 to 10 seconds (or longer) to believe that it wouldn't apply to humans in most instances as well.
3. Everything being equal, bigger bullets are better than smaller bullets. If shot placement is all that matters, we'd hunt elephants with .22s.
4. Everything isn't equal.
I believe there is a small advantage in stopping powder to larger caliber handguns versus smaller caliber handguns. However, calibers like 9mm have other advantages such as lower cost of ammunition which equals more practice, milder recoil, and increased magazine capacity which can tip the scales in favor of them.
Of far greater importance than caliber is the ability to think clearly and use whatever weapon you choose effectively when it matters. :twocents:
Perfectly stated... but you just ruined the debate. :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on January 11, 2013, 12:23:49 PM
I think it will continue.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 12:33:04 PM
:chuckle:
I think it will continue.
Yeah.. I don't think we have solved it just yet. :chuckle: Eventually everyone will realize the 9mm is the way to go.
Post by: deaner on January 11, 2013, 12:35:35 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 11, 2013, 12:39:38 PM
okay so speaking of 9mm has anybody had the chance to try out the kimber solo? every time i go to a gun store i look but never seen one in stock. read a lot of good things about it but im sure not going to lay down the cash to order a gun ive never even held.
They look awesome.. this was the most current discussion I saw regarding the Solo
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/handgun-discussion/104703-having-problems-kimber-solo.html (http://www.northwestfirearms.com/handgun-discussion/104703-having-problems-kimber-solo.html)
The guy didn't know how to put it back together and was having failures as a result.
Post by: deaner on January 11, 2013, 12:53:52 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 11, 2013, 12:59:47 PM
These types of threads always generate lots of interest, be it the 9mm vs 10mm vs 45, or the 270 vs 30-06 vs. 458, etc.+1, although you are not going to hit the target (heart) on a elephant with a .22, assuming you meant rimfire. ;)
I've come to believe, based primarily on hunting and killing big game, that there are a few laws of firearms and killing that generally apply to these topics:
1. Any gun is better than no gun.
2. No gun or bullet will instantly stop a living creature 100 percent of the time. Unless a spinal column or near spinal column hit is made, the creature may run/keep coming. I've seen too many lung/heart shot animals survive for 5 to 10 seconds (or longer) to believe that it wouldn't apply to humans in most instances as well.
3. Everything being equal, bigger bullets are better than smaller bullets. If shot placement is all that matters, we'd hunt elephants with .22s.
4. Everything isn't equal.
I believe there is a small advantage in stopping powder to larger caliber handguns versus smaller caliber handguns. However, calibers like 9mm have other advantages such as lower cost of ammunition which equals more practice, milder recoil, and increased magazine capacity which can tip the scales in favor of them.
Of far greater importance than caliber is the ability to think clearly and use whatever weapon you choose effectively when it matters. :twocents:
Post by: Special T on January 12, 2013, 08:16:31 AM
Post by: hillbilli on January 12, 2013, 11:46:23 AM
Post by: Special T on January 12, 2013, 01:42:40 PM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9mmvs45ACP.htm (http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9mmvs45ACP.htm)
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 12, 2013, 02:30:31 PM
Here is the link regarding the 9mm vs the 45.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9mmvs45ACP.htm (http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9mmvs45ACP.htm)
Thanks for posting those videos... I had never seen it before but it reinforced what I already knew......those speer dot gold +P in that 9mm are amazing..that's what I use in my shield. :twocents: