Post by: lee on January 30, 2013, 06:05:08 AM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf)
To surmise, currently arrow throwers can harvest Spikes only (in the Bump'un and Nile) and draw fer 50 antlerless tags in each unit.
Proposed change is:
Allow Arrow throwers to harvest either a Spike or Antlerless. :yike: :bdid: for us.
This will increase the antlerless harvest tremendously in both Units thus decrease'un we Coal burners who are lucky enough to get a cow tag.
If'un the Game biologist feel there are too many cows in these 2 units and want to thin'um out, ........ wouldn't it be fair to all types of hunters to increase tags fer everyone instead of allow'un the Arrow throwers all da glory?
Comments?
Post by: gutsnthegrass on January 30, 2013, 11:25:05 AM
Try speaking english!
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 11:34:07 AM
The WDFW is probably thinking we might as well harvest some cows, if not, the Yakamas will kill them anyway.
Post by: Chase 1 on January 30, 2013, 11:45:56 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on January 30, 2013, 11:48:35 AM
Post by: buglebuster on January 30, 2013, 11:50:27 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on January 30, 2013, 11:58:51 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 12:08:00 PM
The little Naches will no longer have a general season, and we will be back to hunting the bumping and Nile for cows and spike.
You're right! I hadn't noticed that. No general archery season in 346!
Big change there, this will create some controversy.
Post by: hughjorgan on January 30, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 30, 2013, 12:24:08 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 12:28:31 PM
The only thing that we can count on from year to year is that nothing ever stays the same. And that is true with all things in life.
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 12:54:56 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on January 30, 2013, 12:57:33 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 01:08:18 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Just because you own a muzzleloader doesn't mean you have to hunt with it every year. If you just don't like the short season, but still want to use your muzzleloader, you also have the option of hunting modern season with your muzzleloader.
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 01:12:41 PM
Find me a unit where archery guys get 3pt min and antlerless elk and ml hunters have to shoots spikes.
This year, Bumping and Nile would be a couple. Also off the top of my head, add Taneum to the list.
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 01:20:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2013, 01:25:22 PM
Post by: et1702 on January 30, 2013, 01:28:02 PM
WDFW is proposing changes to the harvest opportunities for Arrow throwers in the Bump'un and Nile.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf)
To surmise, currently arrow throwers can harvest Spikes only (in the Bump'un and Nile) and draw fer 50 antlerless tags in each unit.
Proposed change is:
Allow Arrow throwers to harvest either a Spike or Antlerless. :yike: :bdid: for us.
This will increase the antlerless harvest tremendously in both Units thus decrease'un we Coal burners who are lucky enough to get a cow tag.
If'un the Game biologist feel there are too many cows in these 2 units and want to thin'um out, ........ wouldn't it be fair to all types of hunters to increase tags fer everyone instead of allow'un the Arrow throwers all da glory?
Comments?
If you notice, the new regs also eliminate the Little Naches Unit (#346) for archers this year, which was spike or antlerless too. Based on elk density, closing 346 and opening Bumping and Nile will have little or no effect on the number of anterless elk harvested. But, it may spread out the archery hunters a little more.
ET
Post by: washelkhunter on January 30, 2013, 01:35:38 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on January 30, 2013, 01:46:58 PM
Spike only hunts are bs hunts for any user group. I want into 560, 550 and back into 346. Ml used to have a great mid nov hunt in 346 for 4 days. No one can compare ml to ar and think ml is getting a fair shake today. As noted my arguement is hinging on the technological advancements in what is passing for ar today and the simple fact that we pay the same dollar amt but are being denied the same opportunities. I would like to have the option of at least taking a cow during the genl ml season.y
Muzzleloaders have advanced big time to compare a modern compound. 150 yards vs 60 yards with a bow? Which has better ability to kill. There is no comparison which one is more efficient at.killing.
Post by: et1702 on January 30, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
Spike only hunts are bs hunts for any user group. I want into 560, 550 and back into 346. Ml used to have a great mid nov hunt in 346 for 4 days. No one can compare ml to ar and think ml is getting a fair shake today. As noted my arguement is hinging on the technological advancements in what is passing for ar today and the simple fact that we pay the same dollar amt but are being denied the same opportunities. I would like to have the option of at least taking a cow during the genl ml season.
I too would disagree w/you. All my elk have been 40yards or less w/archery equipment. With my ML, I'd feel comfortable to 150yards. BIG difference in ability to harvest an animal w/ML vs Archery. Plus, even if you limit your self to 100 yards w/ML, there is a big difference in stalking to within 100 yards and stalking to within 40 yards (or even 50 to 60 yards).
ET
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 01:55:17 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 30, 2013, 02:00:27 PM
Post by: deerslyr on January 30, 2013, 02:38:15 PM
I will agree that typically you can shoot farther with a muzzy, but its no guarantee that muzzy will go off every time with the regulations in WA. For that reason I wont give much of an advantage to muzzy hunters. Ive killed animals with everything but pistols, every time I have shot at an animal with a bow the arrow went down range and fatally hit the animal. I cant say the same for muzzleloading rifles as ive had a few misfires, and at nice bucks at that.
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 30, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
Archers got railroaded out of Goose Prairie four years ago and this change really just restores our lost opportunity. :tup: Bout time!
Amen brotha!
Post by: brianmtsinc on January 30, 2013, 03:19:31 PM
IMO - The Nile and Bumping have a lot of elk and do not need to be draw only units.
Post by: Elkrunner on January 30, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 03:51:23 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 03:57:47 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on January 30, 2013, 04:09:49 PM
I've killed 8 archery elk longest shot 40 yards.
And your last deer?
Post by: colockumelk on January 30, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
Im starting to lobby tbe commission on equanamity between ml and ar. Compared to ml, ar is much more liberal and generous across the state. When i started ml we had an 11 day season and much more opps for antlerless and more gmus. Now were down to 7 days and spike onlys, while ar sits on a 15 day season and 3 pt or antlerless in numerous elk rich units denied to ml. This disparity in opps to me is no longer tolerable or justified. When ar's now brag about harvesting animals at 70yds and are taking shots out to 100 well, its obvious that the technology has now reached a par with ml. My proposals will be to restrict ar to the same lenght of hunts as ml and to give ml the exact same gmus and harvest opps as current ar seasons. My proposals will also involve shortening the mod season to a 7 day hunt only. We ml pay the same money and we are now demanding the same opportunities.
Let me educate you on how the season setting process works.
Step #1 The Biologists determine the amount of animals that can be harvested in a certain GMU.
Step #2 The harvest is split up amongst the user groups based on how many people hunt in each user group. Typically about 70% goes to rifle hunters, 20% goes to Archery hunters and 10% goes to Muzzle Loader hunters. This is about the average population split.
Step #3b For general seasons they set a number of days which they think it will take each user group to harvest their alotment of big game animals. Every three years they look at the average number of harvests. If a user group is shooting more than their alotment then they reduce their season by a day or two. If they are not achieving their alotted number they increase the amount of days they get in a season. Or in the case of rifle hunters they move the season a little bit later in the year.
Step #3a For special permits they also look at the average success rate. And determine the number of permits to give out based on how many animals each user group is allowed to harvest. For example. Lets say that in the Bumping unit it is determined that 100 cows can be harvested total and still keep the herd healthy. Rifle hunters get to shoot 70 cows, archery guys get to shoot 20 cows and muzzle loaders get to shoot 10 cows. Now take the average success ratio. Rifle hunters its about 40%, archery hunters 10% and muzzle loaders about 25%. So for rifle the formula would look like this. 70/0.4=175 permits. Archery 20/0.10=200 permits and Muzzle Loaders would look like 10/0.25=40 permits.
Now in the case of the Bumping if after 3 years the archery guys are not filling their 20 tags a year that they are alloted. Then the WDFW says "the hell with it" and makes it cows OTC for archery guys like in most other units.
I hunted muzzle loader for years. I saw it go from any bull/antlerless to spike or antlerless to spike only. I saw it go from an early and late season to now just an early season. Then I started hunting with a bow so I could hunt more. Last year I hunted with a muzzle loader and we filled 5 of 5 tags. I can tell you that the reason muzzle loaders has lost so many days is because of the advances in muzzle loader technology. My T/C Black Diamon XTR with Pyrodex pellets and a jacketed bullet that I shoot after ranging an elk is much more effective to further distances than my old Hawken with loose black powder, round ball and no range finder. You want to blame the loss of seasons on something blame it on technology. Have bow technology increased. Yes but not by that much. Do people and can some people shoot out to 70yds. Yes. But most people don't and 70yd shots are rare. Its the same thing as do people with muzzle loaders shoot out to 250yds. Yes they do. Is it rare yes it is.
Your negativity doesn't do either hunting community any good. All it does is fuel an uneaded fire. It just splits us, it doesn't unit us. Having hunted with both bow and muzzle loader I can assure you that just because it is OTC in that GMU now doesn't mean that archery guys are gonna start slaying cows left and right. Look at the historical harvest stats in each unit. Rifle hunters shot way more cows than archery guys did. (Not trying to blast Rifle hunters. There are alot more of them than archery guys and each of their cows that a rifle hunter shot was well deserved. Was just using it as an example) Having hunted both bow and muzzle loader I can assure you that the muzzle loader is much easier than a bow. Also if you took a look at the proposed muzzle loader cow permit numbers you would see that they have increased. Slow down and calm down. The fight isn't between user groups. The fight is with the WDFW.
And as said before, they just reversed a decision and plan they tried 3 years ago.
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 30, 2013, 04:28:16 PM
Post by: ellensburgpo on January 30, 2013, 04:29:04 PM
Post by: colockumelk on January 30, 2013, 04:44:23 PM
Spike only hunts are bs hunts for any user group. I want into 560, 550 and back into 346. Ml used to have a great mid nov hunt in 346 for 4 days. No one can compare ml to ar and think ml is getting a fair shake today. As noted my arguement is hinging on the technological advancements in what is passing for ar today and the simple fact that we pay the same dollar amt but are being denied the same opportunities. I would like to have the option of at least taking a cow during the genl ml season.
And like I stated in my last post. You are not denied any opportunities. The WDFW took the antlerless OTC season from the Muzzle Loaders because they were shooting too many cows. If you had an east side OTC antlerless hunt it would be a slaughter. Look at the harvest stats on antlerless cow tags in places like the Cowiche or Umtaneum. Geeze we went 5 for 5 in 3 days in the Cowiche and I had never hunted that spot before. I havn't even hunted with a Muzzle Loader since 2005.
If you want to hunt OTC cows then either pickup a bow, or go over to the west side. I do agree that ML guys get the stinky end of the stick when it comes to the amount of units they get to hunt on the west side. Lets compare the east side though. It seems in the Yakima units that the Muzzle Loaders have more GMU's to hunt OTC than the archery guys do. Bow hunters have 5 units compared to the Muzzle Loaders 7 units to hunt. :twocents: So what is your issue :dunno: looking forward to your response.
Archery gets Muzzle Loader
336 spike, antlerless 336 spike 100 cow tags
340 spike, antlerless 340 spike, 100 cow tags
342 Draw Only 342 spike, 250 cow tags
346 Draw Only 346 Draw Only
352 spike, antlerless 352 spike, 20 cow tags
356 spike, antlerless 356 spike, 30 cow tags
360 Draw Only 360 spike, 20 cow tags
364 spike, antlerless 364 Draw Only
368 Draw Only 368 spike, 250 cow tags
Post by: lee on January 31, 2013, 08:46:50 AM
My intent of the original post was not to start a Pee-Pee'un contest with the Arrow throwers. I intentionally put this post in the Muzzleloader forum request'un input from fellow Coal burners.
Our hunt'un group exclusively hunts the Nile and the Bump'un so, ... all of the posts here concer'un how other GMU's do business is well.... their business.
Accord'un to the WDFW Game Harvest Report for 2011 (2012 hasn't been released yet) :
Archers in the Nile had an 8.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 0.0% and Modern's 2.7%
Archers in the Bump'un had a 0.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 2.0% and Modern's 1.5%.
In order to "even the play'un field" and based on the Stats above, I feel that the anterless issue should be resolved by increasing tags in each group. Not giving all the advantage to just one discipline.
Flame on!
Lee
Post by: washelkhunter on January 31, 2013, 11:14:34 AM
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.
Post by: hughjorgan on January 31, 2013, 11:56:27 AM
Thx Lee. As stated by me previously i was addressing the disparity in general season opps, not special permits. Ar gets spike or antlerless in the good units and 3pt or antlerless in the great units while ml gets spike only in only the good units, very few mind you, or any elk in units that dont even hold huntable numbers of elk. And we have been cutout of the elk rich units such as 550, 560 and 346. We want in and we want the same genl opps. As far as equipment goes, most elk in these units are harvested in the timber and scrub. A long shot is going to be 100 yds and mls have always been able to reach out that far, but now ar is also capable
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.
Archery doesn't have a general season in 346 anymore, we only temporarily had a season there because the elk herds in the Nile and bumping units were supposedly below objective for cows. Muzzleloaders don't have 346 because the game department gave you unit 368 which happens to have one of the highest harvest rates around yakima, you could very well choose to.hunt there but you guys are choosing to hunt units with lower.success rates but at the same time claim the wdfw is giving you the short end of the stick.
Post by: raydog on January 31, 2013, 02:07:01 PM
The little Naches will no longer have a general season, and we will be back to hunting the bumping and Nile for cows and spike.But we can still hunt mulies right?
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 31, 2013, 02:09:22 PM
I'm assuming yes.The little Naches will no longer have a general season, and we will be back to hunting the bumping and Nile for cows and spike.But we can still hunt mulies right?
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 31, 2013, 02:54:39 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2013, 02:59:15 PM
Archery hunters lose 6 days of are late season this year in the 300 GMU's if you guys didn't notice.
That's only because Thankgiving is 6 days later. Muzzleloader season will also be 6 days shorter because of that.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 04:29:48 PM
Thx Lee. As stated by me previously i was addressing the disparity in general season opps, not special permits. Ar gets spike or antlerless in the good units and 3pt or antlerless in the great units while ml gets spike only in only the good units, very few mind you, or any elk in units that dont even hold huntable numbers of elk. And we have been cutout of the elk rich units such as 550, 560 and 346. We want in and we want the same genl opps. As far as equipment goes, most elk in these units are harvested in the timber and scrub. A long shot is going to be 100 yds and mls have always been able to reach out that far, but now ar is also capable
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.
You have yet to make a single valid point in regards to the Yakima units. Not a single one. Can you explain how muzzle loaders have less opportunity than archers. You have more units to hunt than we do. And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter. How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow. Bow hunters have twice as many closed units in Yakima than muzzle loaders do. Did you even read either one of my posts? Do you have a rebuttal for either one or did you just choose to ignore them?
Post by: deerslyr on January 31, 2013, 04:49:12 PM
And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter. How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow.
I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 04:54:30 PM
All,
My intent of the original post was not to start a Pee-Pee'un contest with the Arrow throwers. I intentionally put this post in the Muzzleloader forum request'un input from fellow Coal burners.
Our hunt'un group exclusively hunts the Nile and the Bump'un so, ... all of the posts here concer'un how other GMU's do business is well.... their business.
Accord'un to the WDFW Game Harvest Report for 2011 (2012 hasn't been released yet) :
Archers in the Nile had an 8.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 0.0% and Modern's 2.7%
Archers in the Bump'un had a 0.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 2.0% and Modern's 1.5%.
In order to "even the play'un field" and based on the Stats above, I feel that the anterless issue should be resolved by increasing tags in each group. Not giving all the advantage to just one discipline.
Flame on!
Lee
In the Yakima units overall including special permits archers have a 7.48% success rate. Muzzle Loaders have a 7.09% success rate. Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs too hunt. How exactly are they at a disadvantage.
Archers killed 237 cows and 49 spikes. Muzzle Loader hunters killed 159 cows and 90 spikes. It took 4647 bow hunters and 2255 muzzle loader hunters to do this. So of course archers might kill more. Read my first post in case you ignored it and it will lay out how the season and permit setting process works. Things are fair.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 04:56:40 PM
And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter. How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow.
I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.
You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more. The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.
Post by: deerslyr on January 31, 2013, 05:03:23 PM
And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter. How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow.
I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.
You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more. The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.
First off were talking about bumping and nile, you might wanna read into the title. Second off, you clearly stated that "And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter" how does a difference of .39 % success rate, in the ARCHERS advantage make it harder to kill an elk with a bow?! It doesnt and that is a fact posted by yourself.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 05:25:24 PM
And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter. How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow.
I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.
You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more. The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.
First off were talking about bumping and nile, you might wanna read into the title. Second off, you clearly stated that "And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter" how does a difference of .39 % success rate, in the ARCHERS advantage make it harder to kill an elk with a bow?! It doesnt and that is a fact posted by yourself.
Glad you realize that it is a fact I posted. As discussed both groups have a 7% success rate. However (this is the part that I thought was obvious and didnt need to be explained.)
Muzzle Loaders achieve their 7% success rate in 7 days.
It takes Bow hunters 13 days in the early season and 18 days in the late season (31 days total)
It takes bow hunters 4.43 times more days to achieve the same thing as muzzle loader hunters do. I still don't see how things are unfair.
Post by: deerslyr on January 31, 2013, 05:55:58 PM
Lee and my dad along with many others that I grew up around have shared the same elk camp on bumping river road for over a decade. I attended these elk camps as a young man and some of my most fond memories occurred there. You could say if you dont like the way it is there go to another set of units, but for these guys its tradition to have there elk camp there and would like to see some more success. (who wouldnt)
All Lee is trying to do is help muzzleloader hunters get some more cow tags because he sees that archers have OTC antlerless opportunities now. The WDFW limited that regulation to spike only a few years ago due to a decreasing herd and also limited the number of cow tags given out to muzzleload hunters. They now feel the herd has recovered enough to re-instate the spike or antlerless rule. We feel if the herd has recovered that much that some more cow tags should be given out to the muzzleloaders. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. Of course that is going to lead to opposition from archers. Nothing wrong with either side, just how each of us sees it.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 31, 2013, 05:56:28 PM
I personally love it! The LN used to be an awesome special permit hunt, and still is, but is much more difficult since the changes. They just are not as vocal with so many hunters running around. For those that get lucky to draw it this year, you are in for some great hunting!:yeah: Completly agree.
IMO - The Nile and Bumping have a lot of elk and do not need to be draw only units.
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2013, 06:01:20 PM
Next year you decide archery season isn't to your liking, buy a modern tag and hunt with your rifle. Lots of options in this state, and nobody is forcing you to hunt the muzzleloader season every year.
However, having said that, I do agree the muzzleloader seasons are the worst out of all three.
And that is why I'm hunting the archery season this year. But I won't be complaining, because I very well may decide to hunt with my muzzleloader next year.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 06:12:37 PM
For archers they took one unit away and gave them another. I still don't see your point. I'm really trying too. And like bobcat said if you dont like the seasons your given choose a different weapon. I typically hunt archery. This year I hunted with the smoke pole so I could hunt with my Dad. We shot 3 cows and 2 spikes in 3 days. Went 5 for 5. That would never happen to us with bows. With bows we would be lucky to get 2 in a season let alone 5 in 3 days. And yes stats show and my experience tells me a bow is much more difficult than with a muzzle loader.
If you disagree I would love for you to explain how they are the same difficulty level.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 31, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on January 31, 2013, 06:28:59 PM
Well your point and lees point is moot since they did and are giving out a lot more cow tags this year. It went they quadrupled the cow tags in Bethel and Nile. And tripled the cowtags in the Bumping. What more do you want?
For archers they took one unit away and gave them another. I still don't see your point. I'm really trying too. And like bobcat said if you dont like the seasons your given choose a different weapon. I typically hunt archery. This year I hunted with the smoke pole so I could hunt with my Dad. We shot 3 cows and 2 spikes in 3 days. Went 5 for 5. That would never happen to us with bows. With bows we would be lucky to get 2 in a season let alone 5 in 3 days. And yes stats show and my experience tells me a bow is much more difficult than with a muzzle loader.
If you disagree I would love for you to explain how they are the same difficulty level.
It doesn't appear the amount of allotted cow permits changed for muzzle loaders. They had 20 for the Nile and 30 for bumping last year and it seems it is the same in this years proposals, unless I missed something.
Post by: hughjorgan on January 31, 2013, 06:39:29 PM
And now were back on track to the two units at hand. With nile having an 8.8% success rate for archery due to there extended season and late season while muzzleloaders had a 0% success rate. Therefore creating less opportunity and less success. Bumping has a higher success for muzzleloaders, but both success rates were very low and I account that more to terrain and access than anything else, also the majority of serious archers that I know who used to hunt bumping went across the highway to LN due to the antlerless opportunities. That is all speculation though...
Lee and my dad along with many others that I grew up around have shared the same elk camp on bumping river road for over a decade. I attended these elk camps as a young man and some of my most fond memories occurred there. You could say if you dont like the way it is there go to another set of units, but for these guys its tradition to have there elk camp there and would like to see some more success. (who wouldnt)
All Lee is trying to do is help muzzleloader hunters get some more cow tags because he sees that archers have OTC antlerless opportunities now. The WDFW limited that regulation to spike only a few years ago due to a decreasing herd and also limited the number of cow tags given out to muzzleload hunters. They now feel the herd has recovered enough to re-instate the spike or antlerless rule. We feel if the herd has recovered that much that some more cow tags should be given out to the muzzleloaders. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. Of course that is going to lead to opposition from archers. Nothing wrong with either side, just how each of us sees it.
Why is this an archer vs muzzleloader debate, it seems that your beef is with wdfw biologists that recommend season and permits.
Post by: colockumelk on January 31, 2013, 06:57:49 PM
:dunno:
Deerslyr why is your need with archers. Do you have any understanding how the season setting process works? No offense but it appears that you don't. I thought I did a good job of doing that. Maybe I was confusing in what I wrote. If so I appologize and I can try again. Your angst toward the archery season truly baffles me. Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs open to hunt. Cow tags are easy to draw. (1 every 2-3 years) and the success ratio is the same for muzzle loaders and bow hunters. And for branch bull tags your success ratio is 3 times higher. The timing of your season is also during a really good time. Elk during the first week of october are just as easily called in as during early september. This attitude that the muzzle loaders in Yakima are slighted really does baffle me. Now if you were referring to western washington then I would heartily agree. Western Washington front stuffers get screwed.
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
But like I said if you don't like it, then hunt with a bow. Everyone has that option.
Post by: hughjorgan on January 31, 2013, 07:08:23 PM
Hughjordan I thought last year they only gave out 5 permits for the nile and Bethel and 10 for bumping. I might be mistaken. Maybe that was 2009-2011 timeframe that that's all they gave out.
:dunno:
Deerslyr why is your need with archers. Do you have any understanding how the season setting process works? No offense but it appears that you don't. I thought I did a good job of doing that. Maybe I was confusing in what I wrote. If so I appologize and I can try again. Your angst toward the archery season truly baffles me. Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs open to hunt. Cow tags are easy to draw. (1 every 2-3 years) and the success ratio is the same for muzzle loaders and bow hunters. And for branch bull tags your success ratio is 3 times higher. The timing of your season is also during a really good time. Elk during the first week of october are just as easily called in as during early september. This attitude that the muzzle loaders in Yakima are slighted really does baffle me. Now if you were referring to western washington then I would heartily agree. Western Washington front stuffers get screwed.
The 2012 game regs have the same allotment for cow tags as the proposed 2013 regs that the wdfw are seeking comment on right now. I believe the 09-11 time frame is where they only gave out 5 or 10 permits for each of those gmu's. The wdfw gave archers 50 cow permits each for the Nile and bumping in 2012 and I believe that is because some in the season setting process successfully argued for them.
Post by: hughjorgan on January 31, 2013, 07:12:43 PM
The eastside muzzleloader seasons are not good due to being limited to only spike elk. That makes for a really tough hunt. Talking general seasons here, not permits. Archers can kill a cow every year.
But like I said if you don't like it, then hunt with a bow. Everyone has that option.
They get plenty of cow permits in other gmu like the umptanum and cowiche. My neighbors draw and fill cow tags for muzzleloader it seems almost every other year. The opportunities are there for the taking with a little bit of hard work.
Post by: logger on January 31, 2013, 07:25:40 PM
Post by: deerslyr on January 31, 2013, 07:56:38 PM
Deerslyr why is your need with archers. Do you have any understanding how the season setting process works? No offense but it appears that you don't. I thought I did a good job of doing that. Maybe I was confusing in what I wrote. If so I appologize and I can try again. Your angst toward the archery season truly baffles me. Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs open to hunt. Cow tags are easy to draw. (1 every 2-3 years) and the success ratio is the same for muzzle loaders and bow hunters. And for branch bull tags your success ratio is 3 times higher. The timing of your season is also during a really good time. Elk during the first week of october are just as easily called in as during early september. This attitude that the muzzle loaders in Yakima are slighted really does baffle me. Now if you were referring to western washington then I would heartily agree. Western Washington front stuffers get screwed.
I have no angst with archers as I AM ONE. I switched from muzzy to archery years ago for all of these reasons. All lee was trying to say was if the herd is healthy enough in the bumping and nile to open for antlerless or cow for archery then muzzleloaders should get more cow tags than they do. I really have no idea how you can get my message so twisted? Whats so hard to understand? You keep bringin up how muzzleloaders have more areas open. READ THE TOPIC TITLE. Were talking about the bumping and the nile not the entire yakima area. Whats so hard about understanding that muzzy hunters want some more cow tags if archers are getting OTC antlerless opportunities?
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
To say you should switch weapons if you don't like the season is a bit hard for me to swallow, I shouldn't have to and I think it promotes people who don't have the skills to shoot a bow with confidence {like myself} to do more harm then good.
I've been hunting with a muzzleloader since 1985, so I'm aware of how much has been lost. And I would say if for some reason you can't learn to shoot a bow, then hunt the rifle season (if you don't like the muzz. season).
All I'm trying to say is we all have the same options every year. If you think the option you have chosen has gotten the short end of the stick, then maybe you need to choose one of the other options.
Post by: logger on January 31, 2013, 09:29:39 PM
I get what your saying and I'm sure there are some that do, it's just not for me. It's not that I can't learn to shoot a bow, it's I shouldn't have to, I would quit hunting before I went rifle hunting and as you would say thats my choice and I agree with that. Even the westside units are mostly sub par, there ok if shooting a elk in a farmers field is your thing but thats not for me. oppurtunity is going away at a super fast rate for muzzle loaders and in my opinion it needs to be sqaured up a bit. Hell I live in what once was a any elk unit for everybody,thank god they changed that, those pour elk would get hammered if the weather was right,and oh yes there were plenty of guys shooting a muzzleloader that had no bussiness with one, lottsa wounded animals at times. I actually felt sorry for those animals they would run by you with their tounges draggin. I am not 100 % sure of my thinking, but maybe cows should be permit only for everybody. like I said I don't follow the bow season so maybe I am screwed up in my thought proccess, wouldn't be the first time.To say you should switch weapons if you don't like the season is a bit hard for me to swallow, I shouldn't have to and I think it promotes people who don't have the skills to shoot a bow with confidence {like myself} to do more harm then good.
I've been hunting with a muzzleloader since 1985, so I'm aware of how much has been lost. And I would say if for some reason you can't learn to shoot a bow, then hunt the rifle season (if you don't like the muzz. season).
All I'm trying to say is we all have the same options every year. If you think the option you have chosen has gotten the short end of the stick, then maybe you need to choose one of the other options.
Post by: lee on February 01, 2013, 05:26:23 AM
Archery hunters lose 6 days of are late season this year in the 300 GMU's if you guys didn't notice.
Sir,
Please go back and read my 2 posts.
I started this post specifically concern'un the Bump'un and Nile units.
If you want to start a post complain'un 'bout how you Arrow Throwers are be'un treated in the 300 GMU's please do so, ...... IN YER OWN THREAD not mine. Geeze.
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 01, 2013, 05:40:00 AM
Post by: colockumelk on February 01, 2013, 12:27:52 PM
To try and say muzzleloaders dont get the short end of the stick is absurd. They get the shortest season, less units, the units they get are typically less productive (on the west side any ways), least amount of tags, and over all less opportunity
Yes the original poster did say only bumping and Nile. You however brought in other units to make your point. My rebuttal stems from this. You said they have less units. This is not true in the Yakima units! And they have a shorter season because it takes less time to reach their "quota" than archers. 4 times quicker to he exact!
Post by: WSU on February 01, 2013, 12:32:42 PM
Im starting to lobby tbe commission on equanamity between ml and ar. Compared to ml, ar is much more liberal and generous across the state. When i started ml we had an 11 day season and much more opps for antlerless and more gmus. Now were down to 7 days and spike onlys, while ar sits on a 15 day season and 3 pt or antlerless in numerous elk rich units denied to ml. This disparity in opps to me is no longer tolerable or justified. When ar's now brag about harvesting animals at 70yds and are taking shots out to 100 well, its obvious that the technology has now reached a par with ml. My proposals will be to restrict ar to the same lenght of hunts as ml and to give ml the exact same gmus and harvest opps as current ar seasons. My proposals will also involve shortening the mod season to a 7 day hunt only. We ml pay the same money and we are now demanding the same opportunities.
I hunt with both weapons and can tell you it is about 50 times easier to kill something with a muzzy. Archery equipment is absolutely not on par with muzzy equipment.
Post by: colockumelk on February 01, 2013, 01:15:01 PM
washelkhunter with all due respect do you have any understanding of how and why the season setting process / permit system in regards to numbers of permits works? If you did you would understand why ML's have a 7 day season and why bow hunters have a much longer season. I have explained this time and time again. I will do so again and keep it short. Each user groups is alloted a certain number of animals a "quota" if you will. This is based upon the population numbers that each user group has. It takes 7 days on average for muzzle loaders to achieve their "quota" which correlates to about a 7% success rate. For archers to achieve their quota which also correlates to about 7% it takes much much longer. About 4 times longer. This is because it is much more difficult to get within lethal range and get off a shot with a bow than a muzzle loader. I hunt with both. Archery is much more difficult. For branch bull hunting (which I have never done myself but I've called for others) is much easier with a muzzle loader. I can get a shooter within 150yds from a herd and pull out a herd bull to at least look at us all day long. But to sneak within 50yds of a herd and get this bull to leave his herd to take a peak oh and make sure he is broad side or quartering away and be able for the bow hunter to draw his bow back without being seen and sneak a shot through the maze of branches that are always there is much more difficult.
My party went 5 for 5 in 3 days (2 spikes and 3 cows) this year with a muzzle loader. All in an area that we had never set foot in before. With a bow this same party is lucky to get 1 elk in an entire 2 week season. And no I am not trying to thump my chest and start a "who is a better hunter" argument. Like I said i hunt with both and love shooting my smoke pole as well as my compound bow. To be lethal with my bow out to 50yds takes an entire summers worth of tuning and practise and my groups are still only 4-5". For my muzzle loader I can go out the weekend before and in one shooting session I have 2-3" groups at 100yds. Two more sessions and I have 5" groups out to 150yds. I can assure you (because I hunt with both weapons) that the technology has not caught up with muzzle loaders. Until they desing a bow that you don't have to draw back or can draw back and hold for an indefinate period of time (ie 100% let off) and flings arrows at 2,000 fps and can shoot 4-5" groups at 150 yds and be lethal out to 200-250yds then bow technology will not have caught up to muzzle loaders.
Again I hunted muzzle loader this year. I grew up hunting with muzzle loaders. I wont be able to make the 2013 season. Hopefully I can make the 2014 season and draw a branch bull tag. If I do it will be with a smoke pole. Why? Because the branch bull success rate with a muzzle loader in the Yakima GMU's are 3 times higher than with a bow. And between my brother's calling ability and my own I doubt I will eat that tag. :tup: My :twocents: based off of my personal experiences in the woods both with a bow and a muzzle loader.
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2013, 01:36:56 PM
Quote
Yes the original poster did say only bumping and Nile.
Colockumelk, Didn't you mean to say the Bump'un unit? :dunno:
Post by: colockumelk on February 01, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
Post by: lee on February 02, 2013, 05:15:35 AM
QuoteYes the original poster did say only bumping and Nile.
Colockumelk, Didn't you mean to say the Bump'un unit? :dunno:
:yeah: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Sorry, I type like I talk, .... in the Alabama Redneck'eze dialect. :tup:
Post by: washelkhunter on February 09, 2013, 01:27:27 PM
Dear Commissioners.
As a long time avid Muzzleloading hunter in the state of Washington I would like to see the rule change of last year that allowed archery equipment during ML season rescinded. We ML hunters feel that this is nothing more than a backdoor opportunity for archery hunters to encroach on our season. The argument I received (Mr. Ware), for the allowance of this change was that some ML hunters perhaps wanted the opportunity to hunt with their bows. I found this to be ludicrous and frankly unbelievable. I have been ML hunting for 20 plus years now in Wa. and not once in that entire time have I ever lamented the fact that I could'nt jump on my bow. Nor have I ever heard such a desire from another ML hunter.
I see a proposal for AR to have the opportunity for antlerless harvest in gmu's 352/356. If you are going to allow this than I want to see the same for the general ML season. We ML hunters have been getting the short end of the stick for far too long. I
also want to see ML hunters allowed 3pt or antlerless in gmu's 550, 560 and 346. We also desire the return of the late hunt; mid Nov; for 4 days in gmu 346 for spike or antlerless. We would also desire to see the AR season shortened to the same number of days as the ML season; or the ML season returned to its 11 day season of old. The overarching need for parity with the AR season has become apparent due to the huge technical advancements in what passes for AR today. Archers are now shooting out to 70 yards and beyond and harvesting animals at these ranges, as well as wounding more. We ML's pay the same amount of money to hunt as all other user groups in this state and we demand the same opportunities in the same "elk rich units" that the others currently enjoy. These spike only hunts in the general season of ML have become a bad joke. I personally hunt hard and have gone years without seeing a spike in the field during the season. The lack of opportunity clearly has become abusive for ML hunters. We look forward to seeing new opportunities, gmu's and easing of restrictions on ML's in the near (2013) future.
Thank you for your conscientious consideration.
Post by: RG on February 09, 2013, 01:40:24 PM
Im starting to lobby tbe commission on equanamity between ml and ar. Compared to ml, ar is much more liberal and generous across the state. When i started ml we had an 11 day season and much more opps for antlerless and more gmus. Now were down to 7 days and spike onlys, while ar sits on a 15 day season and 3 pt or antlerless in numerous elk rich units denied to ml. This disparity in opps to me is no longer tolerable or justified. When ar's now brag about harvesting animals at 70yds and are taking shots out to 100 well, its obvious that the technology has now reached a par with ml. My proposals will be to restrict ar to the same lenght of hunts as ml and to give ml the exact same gmus and harvest opps as current ar seasons. My proposals will also involve shortening the mod season to a 7 day hunt only. We ml pay the same money and we are now demanding the same opportunities.
Yeah, these 200 yard bows make them just as effective as muzzleloaders. When I started it was recurves and traditional muzzleloaders too. What happened? Everybody wants a shortcut, take the challenge out of it. I've hunted with every weapon, I'm now a blackpowder hunter, but before you start campaigning to make archery equal to muzzleloader try bowhunting for a few years then come back and say it's equal, no more difficult to harvest an animal with. If your argument is true that bowhunters have a much better deal than everybody else I'm surprised you aren't buying a bow. Of course it is a good topic to argue about since there aren't too many hunting seasons open right now and we're bored.
Post by: washelkhunter on February 09, 2013, 01:44:44 PM
Post by: RG on February 09, 2013, 01:52:09 PM
I hunt with a martin x-200 recurve. Just sayin.
Then, if you hunt with a bow, your argument which includes the line "when I started ML we had an 11 day season...", is pointless because, if you are an archery hunter you are trying to limit your own opportunities and you already understand what I said above. I'm not sure why you care if muzzleloader gets the same opportunity as archery then. It sounds more like you are actually primarily a blackpowder hunter who owns a bow. I'd like longer muzzleloader seasons too but I sure don't think I'd trash bowhunters to get it.
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2013, 02:00:48 PM
I have private property to hunt where the landowner will only allow bow hunting.
I can now choose which season I want to hunt.
Also there are many other areas like this where it might be preferable to use a bow rather than a muzzleloader, due to safety and/or noise reasons.
The ability to use a bow or a muzzleloader during muzzleloader seasons gives us so many more options and flexibility. I think it's a great thing with many pluses and zero minuses.
Post by: HoofsandWings on February 09, 2013, 02:01:40 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on February 09, 2013, 02:02:18 PM
Post by: Curly on February 09, 2013, 02:05:16 PM
And I really can't see them changing the new rule to allow use of a bow during ML season. I'm sure the main reason for that change was so that more archers would buy the multi-season permit. So, they did it for $ reasons..........and there really isn't that good of a reason why a guy with a bow shouldn't be allowed to hunt if he has a ML or muliti tag. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
Im not trashing anyone. I just want some equity and if i have to point out some facts to get it then ill do that.
It is equal. You are free to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season. Same as everyone else. I guess if you don't like it, buy an archery tag instead. :dunno:
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 09, 2013, 02:10:12 PM
Post by: Curly on February 09, 2013, 02:11:30 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on February 09, 2013, 02:13:41 PM
Im not trashing anyone. I just want some equity and if i have to point out some facts to get it then ill do that.
It is equal. You are free to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season. Same as everyone else. I guess if you don't like it, buy an archery tag instead. :dunno:
Jeez. Apparently some dont quite comprehend what they read.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 09, 2013, 02:19:19 PM
Im not trashing anyone. I just want some equity and if i have to point out some facts to get it then ill do that.
It is equal. You are free to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season. Same as everyone else. I guess if you don't like it, buy an archery tag instead. :dunno:
Jeez. Apparently some dont quite comprehend what they read.
Like you?
Go and read colockums post on season setting.
Your argument that muzzle loaders of today are equal to today's compounds is flawed. Technology has change in both types of equipment.
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 09, 2013, 02:32:28 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 09, 2013, 02:52:25 PM
Im not trashing anyone. I just want some equity and if i have to point out some facts to get it then ill do that.
It is equal. You are free to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season. Same as everyone else. I guess if you don't like it, buy an archery tag instead. :dunno:
I have not followed this thread so give me a break if the answer has already been discussed...
Just wondering???? - if you can hunt with a bow during ML season can you hunt with a ML during bow season? Do not think you can do this in Idaho, hunt with a ML during Bow Season... Seems a bit unfair to me!
Post by: Curly on February 09, 2013, 04:12:47 PM
Post by: HoofsandWings on February 11, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
Hunters who have had a felony conviction can only hunt with a bow. This gives them an opportunity to choose which season or seasons they can hunt.
Post by: Sabotloader on February 11, 2013, 10:06:45 AM
Hunters who have had a felony conviction can only hunt with a bow. This gives them an opportunity to choose which season or seasons they can hunt.
That would make some sense for sure but it seems it would be easy to put that sipulation in regualations... nver mind that really would not be fair either... it would make that situation stand out in ML season.
Post by: lee on April 18, 2013, 06:36:00 AM
WDFW is proposing changes to the harvest opportunities for Arrow throwers in the Bump'un and Nile.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2013/wsr_13-03-152.pdf)
To surmise, currently arrow throwers can harvest Spikes only (in the Bump'un and Nile) and draw fer 50 antlerless tags in each unit.
Proposed change is:
Allow Arrow throwers to harvest either a Spike or Antlerless. :yike: :bdid: for us.
This will increase the antlerless harvest tremendously in both Units thus decrease'un we Coal burners who are lucky enough to get a cow tag.
If'un the Game biologist feel there are too many cows in these 2 units and want to thin'um out, ........ wouldn't it be fair to all types of hunters to increase tags fer everyone instead of allow'un the Arrow throwers all da glory?
Comments?
Unfortunately (for us Muzzly-loaders),..... the proposal passed. This should drastically reduce the odds of harvesting a cow fer the 10 lucky folks who get drawn fer a ML cow tag.
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 18, 2013, 07:04:22 AM
Post by: RG on April 18, 2013, 05:14:24 PM
Unfortunately (for us Muzzly-loaders),..... the proposal passed. This should drastically reduce the odds of harvesting a cow fer the 10 lucky folks who get drawn fer a ML cow tag.
[/quote]
Not likely, check the average success rates for all the local units in that area for bowhunters. They may take a few cows but, the only affect likely to be noticed will be that the elk are more alert at the start of muzzleloader season because people have already been hunting them. The total archery harvest numbers are really pretty negligible. I hunt muzzleloader in Bumping and I don't have a problem sharing the woods. PS: Spellcheck is a wonderful tool.