Bump'un and Nile Muzzy hunters

[colockumelk]

  And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter.  How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow. 

I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.

You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more.  The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.

[deerslyr]

  And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter.  How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow. 

I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.

You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more.  The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.

First off were talking about bumping and nile, you might wanna read into the title. Second off, you clearly stated that  "And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter" how does a difference of .39 % success rate, in the ARCHERS advantage make it harder to kill an elk with a bow?! It doesnt and that is a fact posted by yourself.

[colockumelk]

  And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter.  How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow. 

I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.

You might want to dig through those harvest stats some more.  The success ratios for the Yakima units are within 0.39% of each other.

First off were talking about bumping and nile, you might wanna read into the title. Second off, you clearly stated that  "And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter" how does a difference of .39 % success rate, in the ARCHERS advantage make it harder to kill an elk with a bow?! It doesnt and that is a fact posted by yourself.

Glad you realize that it is a fact I posted. As discussed both groups have a 7% success rate. However (this is the part that I thought was obvious and didnt need to be explained.)

Muzzle Loaders achieve their 7% success rate in 7 days.
It takes Bow hunters 13 days in the early season and 18 days in the late season (31 days total)

It takes bow hunters 4.43 times more days to achieve the same thing as muzzle loader hunters do. I still don't see how things are unfair.

[deerslyr]

And now were back on track to the two units at hand. With nile having an 8.8% success rate for archery due to there extended season and late season while muzzleloaders had a 0% success rate. Therefore creating less opportunity and less success. Bumping has a higher success for muzzleloaders, but both success rates were very low and I account that more to terrain and access than anything else, also the majority of serious archers that I know who used to hunt bumping went across the highway to LN due to the antlerless opportunities. That is all speculation though...
Lee and my dad along with many others that I grew up around have shared the same elk camp on bumping river road for over a decade. I attended these elk camps as a young man and some of my most fond memories occurred there. You could say if you dont like the way it is there go to another set of units, but for these guys its tradition to have there elk camp there and would like to see some more success. (who wouldnt)
All Lee is trying to do is help muzzleloader hunters get some more cow tags because he sees that archers have OTC antlerless opportunities now. The WDFW limited that regulation to spike only a few years ago due to a decreasing herd and also limited the number of cow tags given out to muzzleload hunters. They now feel the herd has recovered enough to re-instate the spike or antlerless rule. We feel if the herd has recovered that much that some more cow tags should be given out to the muzzleloaders. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. Of course that is going to lead to opposition from archers. Nothing wrong with either side, just how each of us sees it.

[trophyhunt]

I personally love it!  The LN used to be an awesome special permit hunt, and still is, but is much more difficult since the changes.  They just are not as vocal with so many hunters running around.  For those that get lucky to draw it this year, you are in for some great hunting!   

IMO - The Nile and Bumping have a lot of elk and do not need to be draw only units.

Completly agree.

[bobcat]

It's kind of ridiculous to argue which method has the better seasons. Like I've said many times, if you decide you don't like the muzzleloader seasons, then hunt with your bow.

Next year you decide archery season isn't to your liking, buy a modern tag and hunt with your rifle. Lots of options in this state, and nobody is forcing you to hunt the muzzleloader season every year.

However, having said that, I do agree the muzzleloader seasons are the worst out of all three.

And that is why I'm hunting the archery season this year. But I won't be complaining, because I very well may decide to hunt with my muzzleloader next year.

[colockumelk]

Well your point and lees point is moot since they did and are giving out a lot more cow tags this year.  It went they quadrupled the cow tags in Bethel and Nile.  And tripled the cowtags in the Bumping. What more do you want?

For archers they took one unit away and gave them another. I still don't see your point. I'm really trying too. And like bobcat said if you dont like the seasons your given choose a different weapon.  I typically hunt archery. This year I hunted with the smoke pole so I could hunt with my Dad. We shot 3 cows and 2 spikes in 3 days. Went 5 for 5.  That would never happen to us with bows. With bows we would be lucky to get 2 in a season let alone 5 in 3 days. And yes stats show and my experience tells me a bow is much more difficult than with a muzzle loader.

If you disagree I would love for you to explain how they are the same difficulty level.

[trophyhunt]

It's pretty well balanced in my opinion. The muzzy units are very few and the dates are short, but if you get an animal within 100yrds it's usually dead. Early archery weather can really suck at times but your season is long, but just because you have a shot at 50 yrds or closer doesn't mean a kill, even if you hit it the game is not over. I'm a muzzy and archery guy, I think the amount of units that are not open for muzzy protects the amount of animals that get killed. I also think that archery guys kill much more UNfound animals thank any weapon. It's all pretty well set up in my opinion when it comes to times and unit for each weapon, but the selfish side of me wants more eastside units for muzzy open in the late season.

[hughjorgan]

Well your point and lees point is moot since they did and are giving out a lot more cow tags this year.  It went they quadrupled the cow tags in Bethel and Nile.  And tripled the cowtags in the Bumping. What more do you want?

For archers they took one unit away and gave them another. I still don't see your point. I'm really trying too. And like bobcat said if you dont like the seasons your given choose a different weapon.  I typically hunt archery. This year I hunted with the smoke pole so I could hunt with my Dad. We shot 3 cows and 2 spikes in 3 days. Went 5 for 5.  That would never happen to us with bows. With bows we would be lucky to get 2 in a season let alone 5 in 3 days. And yes stats show and my experience tells me a bow is much more difficult than with a muzzle loader.

If you disagree I would love for you to explain how they are the same difficulty level.

It doesn't appear the amount of allotted cow permits changed for muzzle loaders. They had 20 for the Nile and 30 for bumping last year and it seems it is the same in this years proposals, unless I missed something.

[hughjorgan]

And now were back on track to the two units at hand. With nile having an 8.8% success rate for archery due to there extended season and late season while muzzleloaders had a 0% success rate. Therefore creating less opportunity and less success. Bumping has a higher success for muzzleloaders, but both success rates were very low and I account that more to terrain and access than anything else, also the majority of serious archers that I know who used to hunt bumping went across the highway to LN due to the antlerless opportunities. That is all speculation though...
Lee and my dad along with many others that I grew up around have shared the same elk camp on bumping river road for over a decade. I attended these elk camps as a young man and some of my most fond memories occurred there. You could say if you dont like the way it is there go to another set of units, but for these guys its tradition to have there elk camp there and would like to see some more success. (who wouldnt)
All Lee is trying to do is help muzzleloader hunters get some more cow tags because he sees that archers have OTC antlerless opportunities now. The WDFW limited that regulation to spike only a few years ago due to a decreasing herd and also limited the number of cow tags given out to muzzleload hunters. They now feel the herd has recovered enough to re-instate the spike or antlerless rule. We feel if the herd has recovered that much that some more cow tags should be given out to the muzzleloaders. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. Of course that is going to lead to opposition from archers. Nothing wrong with either side, just how each of us sees it.

Why is this an archer vs muzzleloader debate, it seems that your beef is with wdfw biologists that recommend season and permits.

[colockumelk]

Hughjordan I thought last year they only gave out 5 permits for the nile and Bethel and 10 for bumping. I might be mistaken. Maybe that was 2009-2011 timeframe that that's all they gave out.
 

Deerslyr why is your need with archers.  Do you have any understanding how the season setting process works?  No offense but it appears that you don't.  I thought I did a good job of doing that. Maybe I was confusing in what I wrote. If so I appologize and I can try again.  Your angst toward the archery season truly baffles me.  Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs open to hunt. Cow tags are easy to draw. (1 every 2-3 years) and the success ratio is the same for muzzle loaders and bow hunters.  And for branch bull tags your success ratio is 3 times higher.  The timing of your season is also during a really good time. Elk during the first week of october are just as easily called in as during early september.  This attitude that the muzzle loaders in Yakima are slighted really does baffle me.  Now if you were referring to western washington then I would heartily agree. Western Washington front stuffers get screwed.

[bobcat]

The eastside muzzleloader seasons are not good due to being limited to only spike elk. That makes for a really tough hunt. Talking general seasons here, not permits. Archers can kill a cow every year.

But like I said if you don't like it, then hunt with a bow. Everyone has that option.

[hughjorgan]

Hughjordan I thought last year they only gave out 5 permits for the nile and Bethel and 10 for bumping. I might be mistaken. Maybe that was 2009-2011 timeframe that that's all they gave out.
 

Deerslyr why is your need with archers.  Do you have any understanding how the season setting process works?  No offense but it appears that you don't.  I thought I did a good job of doing that. Maybe I was confusing in what I wrote. If so I appologize and I can try again.  Your angst toward the archery season truly baffles me.  Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs open to hunt. Cow tags are easy to draw. (1 every 2-3 years) and the success ratio is the same for muzzle loaders and bow hunters.  And for branch bull tags your success ratio is 3 times higher.  The timing of your season is also during a really good time. Elk during the first week of october are just as easily called in as during early september.  This attitude that the muzzle loaders in Yakima are slighted really does baffle me.  Now if you were referring to western washington then I would heartily agree. Western Washington front stuffers get screwed.

The 2012 game regs have the same allotment for cow tags as the proposed 2013 regs that the wdfw are seeking comment on right now. I believe the 09-11 time frame is where they only gave out 5 or 10 permits for each of those gmu's. The wdfw gave archers 50 cow permits each for the Nile and bumping in 2012 and I believe that is because some in the season setting process successfully argued for them.

[hughjorgan]

The eastside muzzleloader seasons are not good due to being limited to only spike elk. That makes for a really tough hunt. Talking general seasons here, not permits. Archers can kill a cow every year.

But like I said if you don't like it, then hunt with a bow. Everyone has that option.

They get plenty of cow permits in other gmu like the umptanum and cowiche. My neighbors draw and fill cow tags for muzzleloader it seems almost every other year. The opportunities are there for the taking with a little bit of hard work.

[logger]

Pretty interesting opinions, when I started m.l. pretty much everything was open in the yakama units, I don't keep up on archery seasons but I think the smokepole seasons have been hit hard, used to be longer had a late season also had cow areas during the general season, that went away fast and it will never come back. I am sure the bow guys have been hit as well, I just don't know the history. To say you should switch weapons if you don't like the season is a bit hard for me to swallow, I shouldn't have to and I think it promotes people who don't have the skills to shoot a bow with confidence {like myself} to do more harm then good.