Bump'un and Nile Muzzy hunters

[washelkhunter]

I've killed 8 archery elk longest shot 40 yards.

And your last deer?

[colockumelk]

Im starting to lobby tbe commission on equanamity between ml and ar. Compared to ml, ar is much more liberal and generous across the state. When i started ml we had an 11 day season and much more opps for antlerless and more gmus. Now were down to 7 days and spike onlys, while ar sits on a 15 day season and 3 pt or antlerless in numerous elk rich units denied to ml. This disparity in opps  to me is no longer tolerable or justified.  When ar's now brag about harvesting animals at 70yds and are taking shots out to 100 well, its obvious that the technology has now reached a par with ml. My proposals will be to restrict ar to the same lenght of hunts as ml and to give ml the exact same gmus and harvest opps as current ar seasons. My proposals will also involve shortening the mod season to a 7 day hunt only. We ml pay the same money and we are now demanding the same opportunities.

Let me educate you on how the season setting process works. 
 Step #1 The Biologists determine the amount of animals that can be harvested in a certain GMU.
Step #2 The harvest is split up amongst the user groups based on how many people hunt in each user group.  Typically about 70% goes to rifle hunters, 20% goes to Archery hunters and 10% goes to Muzzle Loader hunters.  This is about the average population split.
Step #3b For general seasons they set a number of days which they think it will take each user group to harvest their alotment of big game animals.  Every three years they look at the average number of harvests.  If a user group is shooting more than their alotment then they reduce their season by a day or two.  If they are not achieving their alotted number they increase the amount of days they get in a season.  Or in the case of rifle hunters they move the season a little bit later in the year.

Step #3a  For special permits they also look at the average success rate.  And determine the number of permits to give out based on how many animals each user group is allowed to harvest.  For example.  Lets say that in the Bumping unit it is determined that 100 cows can be harvested total and still keep the herd healthy.  Rifle hunters get to shoot 70 cows, archery guys get to shoot 20 cows and muzzle loaders get to shoot 10 cows.  Now take the average success ratio.  Rifle hunters its about 40%, archery hunters 10% and muzzle loaders about 25%.  So for rifle the formula would look like this.  70/0.4=175 permits.  Archery 20/0.10=200 permits and Muzzle Loaders would look like 10/0.25=40 permits.

Now in the case of the Bumping if after 3 years the archery guys are not filling their 20 tags a year that they are alloted.  Then the WDFW says "the hell with it" and makes it cows OTC for archery guys like in most other units.

I hunted muzzle loader for years.  I saw it go from any bull/antlerless to spike or antlerless to spike only.  I saw it go from an early and late season to now just an early season.  Then I started hunting with a bow so I could hunt more.  Last year I hunted with a muzzle loader and we filled 5 of 5 tags.  I can tell you that the reason muzzle loaders has lost so many days is because of the advances in muzzle loader technology.  My T/C Black Diamon XTR with Pyrodex pellets and a jacketed bullet that I shoot after ranging an elk is much more effective to further distances than my old Hawken with loose black powder, round ball and no range finder.  You want to blame the loss of seasons on something blame it on technology.  Have bow technology increased.  Yes but not by that much.  Do people and can some people shoot out to 70yds.  Yes.  But most people don't and 70yd shots are rare.  Its the same thing as do people with muzzle loaders shoot out to 250yds.  Yes they do.  Is it rare yes it is. 

Your negativity doesn't do either hunting community any good.  All it does is fuel an uneaded fire.  It just splits us, it doesn't unit us.  Having hunted with both bow and muzzle loader I can assure you that just because it is OTC in that GMU now doesn't mean that archery guys are gonna start slaying cows left and right.  Look at the historical harvest stats in each unit.  Rifle hunters shot way more cows than archery guys did.  (Not trying to blast Rifle hunters.  There are alot more of them than archery guys and each of their cows that a rifle hunter shot was well deserved.  Was just using it as an example)  Having hunted both bow and muzzle loader I can assure you that the muzzle loader is much easier than a bow.  Also if you took a look at the proposed muzzle loader cow permit numbers you would see that they have increased.  Slow down and calm down.  The fight isn't between user groups.  The fight is with the WDFW. 
And as said before, they just reversed a decision and plan they tried 3 years ago. 

[D-Rock425]

Wow wow wow lets lets get back to the topic on hand.  Just joking it was 63 yards  yep thats right 63 yards is a long shot for the normal archery hunter.  I also hunted with a muzzleloader this year and felt comfortable shoot out to about 120 yards twice the distance of my 63yard deer kill.

[ellensburgpo]

Great post colockumelk

[colockumelk]

Spike only hunts are bs hunts for any user group. I want into 560, 550 and back into 346. Ml used to have a great mid nov hunt in 346 for 4 days. No one can compare ml to ar and think ml is getting a fair shake today. As noted my arguement is hinging on the technological advancements in what is passing for ar today and the simple fact that we pay the same dollar amt but are being denied the same opportunities. I would like to have the option of at least taking a cow during the genl ml season.

And like I stated in my last post.  You are not denied any opportunities.  The WDFW took the antlerless OTC season from the Muzzle Loaders because they were shooting too many cows.  If you had an east side OTC antlerless hunt it would be a slaughter.  Look at the harvest stats on antlerless cow tags in places like the Cowiche or Umtaneum.  Geeze we went 5 for 5 in 3 days in the Cowiche and I had never hunted that spot before.  I havn't even hunted with a Muzzle Loader since 2005. 

If you want to hunt OTC cows then either pickup a bow, or go over to the west side.  I do agree that ML guys get the stinky end of the stick when it comes to the amount of units they get to hunt on the west side.  Lets compare the east side though.  It seems in the Yakima units that the Muzzle Loaders have more GMU's to hunt OTC than the archery guys do. Bow hunters have 5 units compared to the Muzzle Loaders 7 units to hunt.   So what is your issue  looking forward to your response.

Archery gets                                 Muzzle Loader
336 spike, antlerless                    336 spike 100 cow tags
340 spike, antlerless                    340 spike, 100 cow tags
342 Draw Only                               342 spike, 250 cow tags
346 Draw Only                                346 Draw Only
352 spike, antlerless                     352 spike, 20 cow tags
356 spike, antlerless                      356 spike, 30 cow tags
360 Draw Only                                 360 spike, 20 cow tags
364 spike, antlerless                       364 Draw Only
368 Draw Only                                  368 spike, 250 cow tags
     

[lee]

All,

My intent of the original post was not to start a Pee-Pee'un contest with the Arrow throwers. I intentionally put this post in the Muzzleloader forum request'un input from fellow Coal burners.

Our hunt'un group exclusively hunts the Nile and the Bump'un so, ... all of the posts here concer'un how other GMU's do business is well.... their business. 

Accord'un to the WDFW Game Harvest Report for 2011 (2012 hasn't been released yet) :
Archers in the Nile had an 8.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 0.0% and Modern's 2.7%
Archers in the Bump'un had a 0.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 2.0% and Modern's 1.5%.

In order to "even the play'un field" and based on the Stats above, I feel that the anterless issue should be resolved by increasing tags in each group. Not giving all the advantage to just one discipline.

Flame on!
Lee

[washelkhunter]

Thx Lee. As stated by me previously i was addressing the disparity in general season opps, not special permits. Ar gets spike or antlerless in the good units and 3pt or antlerless in the great units while ml gets spike only in only the good units, very few mind you, or any elk in units that dont even hold huntable numbers of elk. And we have been cutout of the elk rich units such as 550, 560 and 346. We want in and we want the same genl opps. As far as equipment goes, most elk in these units are harvested in the timber and scrub. A long shot is going to be 100 yds and mls have always been able to reach out that far, but now ar is also capable
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.

[hughjorgan]

Thx Lee. As stated by me previously i was addressing the disparity in general season opps, not special permits. Ar gets spike or antlerless in the good units and 3pt or antlerless in the great units while ml gets spike only in only the good units, very few mind you, or any elk in units that dont even hold huntable numbers of elk. And we have been cutout of the elk rich units such as 550, 560 and 346. We want in and we want the same genl opps. As far as equipment goes, most elk in these units are harvested in the timber and scrub. A long shot is going to be 100 yds and mls have always been able to reach out that far, but now ar is also capable
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.

Archery doesn't have a general season in 346 anymore, we only temporarily had a season there because the elk herds in the Nile and bumping units were supposedly below objective for cows. Muzzleloaders don't have 346 because the game department gave you unit 368 which happens to have one of the highest harvest rates around yakima, you could very well choose to.hunt there but you guys are choosing to hunt units with lower.success rates but at the same time claim the wdfw is giving you the short end of the stick.

[raydog]

The little Naches will no longer have a general season, and we will be back to hunting the bumping and Nile for cows and spike.

But we can still hunt mulies right?

[D-Rock425]

The little Naches will no longer have a general season, and we will be back to hunting the bumping and Nile for cows and spike.

But we can still hunt mulies right?

I'm assuming yes.

[D-Rock425]

Archery hunters lose 6 days of are late season this year in the 300 GMU's if you guys didn't notice.

[bobcat]

Archery hunters lose 6 days of are late season this year in the 300 GMU's if you guys didn't notice.

That's only because Thankgiving is 6 days later. Muzzleloader season will also be 6 days shorter because of that.

[colockumelk]

Thx Lee. As stated by me previously i was addressing the disparity in general season opps, not special permits. Ar gets spike or antlerless in the good units and 3pt or antlerless in the great units while ml gets spike only in only the good units, very few mind you, or any elk in units that dont even hold huntable numbers of elk. And we have been cutout of the elk rich units such as 550, 560 and 346. We want in and we want the same genl opps. As far as equipment goes, most elk in these units are harvested in the timber and scrub. A long shot is going to be 100 yds and mls have always been able to reach out that far, but now ar is also capable
of doing so and they are taking those shots. I read about it all the time here.

You have yet to make a single valid point in regards to the Yakima units. Not a single one.  Can you explain how muzzle loaders have less opportunity than archers.  You have more units to hunt than we do.  And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter.  How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow.  Bow hunters have twice as many closed units in Yakima than muzzle loaders do. Did you even read either one of my posts?  Do you have a rebuttal for either one or did you just choose to ignore them?

[deerslyr]

  And its OTC for cows for bow hunters because its much more difficult to shoot a cow than a muzzle loader hunter.  How do I know this because I hunt with both ML and bow. 

I disagree and I have hunted with both for several years, I explained my reasoning in my previous post. The success rates were just posted by lee for 2011. Archery in nile was 8.8% and 0.0% for muzzleloader. Archery in bumping was .8% and 2.0% for muzzleloader. How ever there is also a late hunt in nile for archery where cows are legal so that may inflate the success rates more, but that also proves the point that archers have more opportunity. The success rates show there is no substantial advantage to the muzzleloaders and in the case of the nile unit, an 8.8 % increase in success.

[colockumelk]

All,

My intent of the original post was not to start a Pee-Pee'un contest with the Arrow throwers. I intentionally put this post in the Muzzleloader forum request'un input from fellow Coal burners.

Our hunt'un group exclusively hunts the Nile and the Bump'un so, ... all of the posts here concer'un how other GMU's do business is well.... their business. 

Accord'un to the WDFW Game Harvest Report for 2011 (2012 hasn't been released yet) :
Archers in the Nile had an 8.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 0.0% and Modern's 2.7%
Archers in the Bump'un had a 0.8% success rate compared to Muzzleloaders 2.0% and Modern's 1.5%.

In order to "even the play'un field" and based on the Stats above, I feel that the anterless issue should be resolved by increasing tags in each group. Not giving all the advantage to just one discipline.

Flame on!
Lee

In the Yakima units overall including special permits archers have a 7.48% success rate. Muzzle Loaders have a 7.09% success rate.  Muzzle Loaders have more GMUs too hunt. How exactly are they at a disadvantage.

Archers killed 237 cows and 49 spikes.  Muzzle Loader hunters killed 159 cows and 90 spikes.  It took 4647 bow hunters and 2255 muzzle loader hunters to do this. So of course archers might kill more. Read my first post in case you ignored it and it will lay out how the season and permit setting process works. Things are fair.