Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: pendoreilleadventures on September 25, 2008, 10:35:20 AM
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>:( One of my buddies is a very good elk hunter he kills his bull almost every year with his bow. well he just moved down to Oklahoma. But flew up for the elk season to hunt. He hunted hard the whole season. On the last day he finally got the shot at the bull he was working on the past week he would get close but just no shots. Well the last day he and another friend hiked in an hour before day light and started calling. The bull lite up right away and came crashing down the hill in the dark about 300 yards. it was still close to an hour before day light so they backed out waited till he could see his pins and headed back. one cow call later the bull was at 25 yards and a nicely placed shot in the heart was all it took bull down. it was a nice 6x6 in the 270 range his biggest bull. Well him and my friend got the bull out hole with a ATV. any how my friend brought the meat to a local guy who cuts up meat for a few people. and took the horns and cape to the taxidermist. his plane left @ 6 am on Monday. He gets back to work and that night he gets a call from the game warden saying that he has evidences that he killed the bull with a spotlight and a rifle and that the animal is being confiscated and there are going to be DNA test as well as test for copper and lead residue. It's all bull *censored* he killed legit and people are jealous because they cant kill them and he can. the game warden has been lying and saying he has proof when there isn't any because it was killed 100% legal. :bash: I can't believe that a game warden would just take someone Else's word about something and go and take someone animal like that. with out any evidence what so every and then go and tell my Friend he knows that it was killed with a rifle and has proof. one word *censored*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi9.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa88%2Fbowhunter_4_life%2F092108072510.jpg&hash=abb1f1be733d9edd47cad192c6afd712dd5f1a72)
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:bash:
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THATS RIDICULOUS
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Wow, What proof does he have?
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that sucks, I wonder who gave him this wonderful information to make him confiscate the animal
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I wouldnt say *censored* to WDFW make them prove there case.
Id take them to small claims court to get my meat/Rack back too.
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He is lucky he was out of state. That Gamey could have confiscated his hunting equipment on "suspicion" of a violation.
It isn't right, it isn't a Law, it is a rule passed by the game commision.
I wish him luck but he is in for a fight. If he don't win he will be fined severely, lose his hunting "privilege' (it is not a Right in this state). Most likely the meat will be ruined by the time the case is over, win or lose.
That really sucks!!!!
Carl
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Assuming that there was no violation in your case I'd also out the game warden responsible and put as much pressure on him to put up or shut up.
Id also document the number of pounds of meat delivered to the butcher and as many kill photos as you can for your records.
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Thats *censored* man, I'd be so pissed I'd sure as hell shell out as much money as I could to get the warden fired or something... thats *censored* and take 'em to court!
Michael
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I had something similar happen to me in Oregon 11 years ago. I was eventually cleared but it was a headache. Don't talk to the gammie or anyone else, anything you say can be twisted against you. It took 2 years to clear it up and ended up being a dukes of hazard situation that I got caught in the middle of. What a nightmare.
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do you know who told the game warden? Was it the butcher or taxidermist? Another hunter? I wasn't there but it sounds like I would hire a lawyer and force the issue here. They need absolute proof...innocent until proven guilty. It sucks that the high your buddy has in shooting a bull, not to mention his biggest is marred and is now a low because of this. Was this in wa? If so I would call the Captain in Spokane and ask some serious questions. Good Luck.
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No big surprise. You're guilty until proven innocent and jealous people who were'nt even there get to ruin your experiences. :bash: :bash: :bash:
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How did "jeleous person" get into this? Do you know who turned him in? Is that person jeleous?
Maybe we have a butcher or taxi who actually found 'something that didn't look right' and noticfied the Game warden? I'd be glad to know they would do that.
There is much more to this story that needs to come out. :twocents:
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Maybe we have a butcher or taxi who actually found 'something that didn't look right' and noticfied the Game warden?
Unlikely that someone from the butcher shop or taxi saw him with a spotlight and a gun shooting the bull. A lot more likely someone saw some action in the woods and drew too many conclusions. Happened to a friend of mine this year.
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Could be anti hunters, there are lots of them out there. I hope that does happen to anyone else
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Perhaps when all is said and done a reciprical effort for "false reporting of a crime" could be in the offing.
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I've seen more accusations around waterfowl season than anything else though. In those situations I would find something much more believable.
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Maybe we have a butcher or taxi who actually found 'something that didn't look right' and noticfied the Game warden?
Unlikely that someone from the butcher shop or taxi saw him with a spotlight and a gun shooting the bull. A lot more likely someone saw some action in the woods and drew too many conclusions. Happened to a friend of mine this year.
They can tell if a animal was shot at night with spotlights because the pupils freeze in place and thats why the game dept checks for that at game stops. A guy in a game check in front of me in E wa. shot a nice 7 x 7 buck, but the game dept checked the eyes and confirmed that it was shot at night, beside the idiot had an archery tag and shot it with a rifle during the modern season. What an idiot
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Seems like weak evidence (pupils freezing) to me. I'd bet any half decent attorney could argue that off and even conclude that there are scenarios where that could happen. Here's an idea - as the "sun rose" over the hill at daybreak and right into the deer's eyes or something like that.
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Why would the warden accuse him without any evidence or suspicion. What's in it for him. Unless he's just an *censored*....doesn't really make any sense to me. I too think the butcher or taxidermist saw something that just didn't look right. Not accusing....just trying to make sense of it.
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They were accusing someone I know of illegal actions without evidence (sort of they were actually fishing for identity publicly at a large meeting of hunters with the presumption that someone was illegaly baiting bears). All based on "word". No surprise to me. I don't know this guy or that warden and I am not sticking up for anyone here just sayin...
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Seems like weak evidence (pupils freezing) to me. I'd bet any half decent attorney could argue that off and even conclude that there are scenarios where that could happen. Her'es an idea - as the "sun rose" over the hill at daybreak and right into the deer's eyes or something like that.
Especially if he was in the timber, which it looked like he was, maybe his eyes had not gotten acclimated to first light. Just because it's daylight doesn't mean it's nice and bright in the thick stuff. :dunno: Don't know...never really checked out the pupils on any of my "first light" harvests.
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To be honest I'll even go a step further (admitting total ignorance on the pupils part though) and say that sounds more like a bully tactic to me. But I am open to learning how good of evidence it is as well.
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They can tell if a animal was shot at night with spotlights because the pupils freeze in place and thats why the game dept checks for that at game stops.
Just one more reason not to take game to a butcher....................although, I realize in this case, this guy had to take the elk to a butcher because he was flying out of state and didn't have time to butcher it himself.
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My friend is going to put an editoral in the local paper letting people know that the game dept is full of liar's. The thing is the warden is just fishing for some reason in Pend oreille county if you are in the woods and hunt you are a poacher in the eyes of the game dept and have to prove that you haven't done any thing wrong the game department always tries to get people to fess up to thing they didn't do. It's crap. My friend DIDNOT POACH THIS ELK!!!!!!! it was 100% legal. The game warden is a flat out liar hoping to get lucky and get a case against a guy who does it by the book. I got in trouble a few years ago by the game dept. because I was hunting with my uncle he is disabled and has a companion card I was carrying a rifle and I bow hunt. But the law says I can do that if I am helping my uncle try to take his deer. I told the game warden that I was a bow hunter and that I was hunt for my uncle he wrote me a ticket for illegally hunting deer without a modern firearms tag. I told him it was bull *censored* and he said that If i had a problem with it to take it up with the court. so I did took it to court the judge laughed and dropped the charges. another one of my friends this spring right after turkey season had his shotgun in the gun rack of his truck. and a turkey slate call on his floor board. He was out cutting firewood the game warden pulled up and started talking to him and seen the shotgun and started trying to get my buddy to admit he was poaching turkeys it to bad that our game dept. has to conduct themselves in such a manner it is a real disappointment.
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This is a pretty typical tactic by our game department. It happened to me too, By the dearly departed Officer Jesky. Long story short, they fish until you make a mistake and say something stupid.
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Advise them that you are willing to take a lie detector test to support your claim, after which you will be filing a wrongful seizure of your trophy and meat.
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There is much more to this story that needs to come out. :twocents:
:yeah:
Did he come back from his new residence in OK to hunt on the resident license he purchased prior to moving? Or did he buy that expensive nonresident elk license? If the former, I believe he's toast. If he has OK resident hunting or fishing licenses, he IS toast.
I am highly doubtful the meat and antlers were seized for no reason at all, or based merely on someone's say-so. If that's true, that will be a short career in wildlife enforcement. Everyone hates poachers - even poachers. Nobody likes to be arrested. It is perfectly ok for a game warden to lie to get incriminating information from a suspect. It is absolutely not allowed to seize animals, equipment or anything else without evidence a crime has been committed. If you are in the right, and any kind of cop seizes your property (and once tagged, harvested game IS your property), fight like hell - administratively and legally.
Let us know how this plays out, I'm interested. If he's truly in the right, I hope he perseveres and straightens it out. However, if he broke the law, intentionally or otherwise, what is happening is exactly what is supposed to happen.
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Let us know how this plays out, I'm interested. If he's truly in the right, I hope he perseveres and straightens it out. However, if he broke the law, intentionally or otherwise, what is happening is exactly what is supposed to happen.
:yeah:
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When taking meat in, cut it up yourself and bring only meat in and tags are not required. My neighbor is a butcher.
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yes, All it takes is a phone call if you arent sure. and whats with all the attitude on here, ive been seeing alot of it. this is suppose to be a fun site.
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That sucks Brian, Pam was in whiteatail plus a couple days ago when I was there asking about broadheads if they could have lead or fragment, she was referring to a case that someone shot a elk with a rifle and ran a arrow thru it. This states game wardens suck, I dont talk to them they get yes or no anwsers, pricks all of them. your guilty till proven innocent around here
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Doublelung is right, once tagged the animal is yours, prior to the tag going on it still belongs to the state. Has your buddy even called the taxidermist and the butcher to see if the animal and antlers were actually taken? The whole conversation could have been a bluff by the game officer which is perfectly legal and an often used police technique. People lie to the game officers all the time. The game officer is still going to need evidence of a crime to justify taking someone's property. If someone is claiming to be a witness, then a statement more than likely should have been taken by the game officer. Just like in any occupation you are going to have outstanding professionals and some knuckleheads. I know some really squared away game officers and I know some knuckleheads. I don't buy the pupil argument, how many instances is an animal shot in the afternoon/evening and finally dies after dark? I agree with the others that there is more to this story, either from your friends side or what was told to the game officer. I would have your friend first verify that the items were infact confiscated and then ask to speak to the game officers Captain to see what the details surrounding the accusation are.
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pam and our new officer are the ones on the investigation. i will call my buddy in the morning and ask him if he has talked to anyone about it.
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When taking meat in, cut it up yourself and bring only meat in and tags are not required. My neighbor is a butcher.
You better read the regs!!!! ;)
2. Transporting wildlife
You must transport any big game
animal with the proper tag attached.
The properly validated tag must
remain with the meat until it is eaten
(including cold storage). If quartered,
the tag should remain with the carcass
or largest portion of the carcass. If you
need to take the head to a taxidermist
and the meat to be processed, you
can complete a taxidermy ledger or
invoice, providing information outlined
under "Possession and Use of
Wildlife" for the taxidermist, and keep
the tag with the meat at the processor.
The tag should remain attached to
the hide of a bear or cougar until it is
tanned.
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makes you want to avoid them in the woods. I was hunting with a new hunter this year and we where hiking back down to our truck after a morning of grouse hunting (no birds) and I heard a vehicle in the distance. I stopped my buddy and told him to wait. He ask why "we are in national forest" my response to his was if it is a game warden they are just going to harass you and try get something from nothing. This is sad :'( that we have to feel this way when we are in the woods. Who is paying for them to be there anyway? They need to remember what there job is. Bullying isn't it.
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I met the new Pend Oreille County Officer and really liked him...I'm suprised he'd be acting this way? :dunno:
I'm not sure what has happened to all of you that have such distrust for game officers...I still think they're doing the best job they can with limited resources and (apparently) a public that hates them... sounds like a tough job.
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Enforcement officers are now called enforcement police on thier badges. Remember they deal with all kinds, meth heads, potheads, hot heads, most of them have guns. Now with that said I know lots of courteous and kind officers that you would thank after they gave you a citation. They are usually the older more experienced officers. The newer officers that have been hired out of the WSP academy seem to have less experience in PR. If I was a chief however and wanted to hire officers that were effective in the field I would hire the bulldogs that produced results. However if they want respect in the field they should show professionalism and respect also. :twocents:
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I know all the officers I have been stopped by in Kittitas and Grant counties have been extremely pleasant. As far as the pupils go, I could see how they could tell. Spotlights are much brighter than natural light so the pupils would have been dialated much more than if shot in the dark or even during first light. I know when I worked for a butcher he would not accept game meat without a tag, and would usually call the warden after the people left.
Brandon
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Within 30 minutes after death, the pupil is fully dilated. Over the next 10 hours, the pupil slowly narrows until it's about a third of it's fully dilated size. From pupil size, they can only approximate the time of death, not if artificial light was used.
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Just to clarify on the pupil thing. The pupil doesn't freeze at time of death based on the brightness of light, though that would seem a logical explanation. The pupil dilates fully shortly after death, then contracts predictably through the first 24-48 hours. There are other indicators too, based on the smoothness of the eyeball surface, color of the reflected eye, clarity of the fluid in the eye, etc. Basically, a game animal's time of death can be pretty reliably estimated to within 1 hour within the first 24-48 hours, and within minutes during the first hour. The most frequently used technique is body temperature at specific locations in a whole, field dressed or field dressed and skinned carcass, since birds and mammals have a constant and predictable body temperature at time of death.
Game wardens are taught to ask questions quickly and commandingly. Basically, anyone truthful can keep up with that, someone lying will trip themselves up. Once that starts, a good investigator can usually unravel a violator's story. Forensic estimation of time of death requires establishing several conditions between time of death and investigation, and if the officer is suspicious that an animal was killed at an illegal time of day, they can quickly tell if they are getting the truth - or if someone is trying to figure out the motivation behind the question, and come up with the "correct" answer.
Often, the rapid fire questions are to determine a person's truthfulness; and the actual answer to only one in every several questions is of consequence. Having been present for hundreds of field interviews, it is pretty easy to determine 1) who broke the law and knows it, 2) who broke the law and doesn't know it, 3) who has no clue what the law is, and is paranoid they broke the law, and 4) who is legal and knows it.
I'm always amazed at how adamant so many of the same hunters are that they want poachers caught and prosecuted, yet get offended that they are questioned by game wardens trying to do that exact job, and who somehow can't detect the holier-than-thou hunter's halo. Contrary to media and stories, poachers aren't identifiable by appearance. That hostile-looking scruffy guy in the 1978 Jimmy, is no more likely (and no less likely) to be a poacher than the dressed-by-Cabela's guy in the $40,000 truck covered with decals. Good officers treat them all the same - and lean on the liars the same.
Chances are, if you've been leaned on by a game warden, it is because you've been evasive - even if you are legal. Like yelp indicated, some of the younger ones are overzealous - but can you really fault them for wanting to be good investigators, and trying to catch bad guys????? Observed violations constitute only a small fraction of arrests and citations - investigation, including field interviews and interrogation techniques, is what catches most violators.
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Within 30 minutes after death, the pupil is fully dilated. Over the next 10 hours, the pupil slowly narrows until it's about a third of it's fully dilated size. From pupil size, they can only approximate the time of death, not if artificial light was used.
What he said - good job Nate.
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When taking meat in, cut it up yourself and bring only meat in and tags are not required. My neighbor is a butcher.
You better read the regs!!!! ;)
2. Transporting wildlife
You must transport any big game
animal with the proper tag attached.
The properly validated tag must
remain with the meat until it is eaten
(including cold storage). If quartered,
the tag should remain with the carcass
or largest portion of the carcass. If you
need to take the head to a taxidermist
and the meat to be processed, you
can complete a taxidermy ledger or
invoice, providing information outlined
under "Possession and Use of
Wildlife" for the taxidermist, and keep
the tag with the meat at the processor.
The tag should remain attached to
the hide of a bear or cougar until it is
tanned.
I've never been asked for a tag when I bring in boned out meat, and I've done it that way for several years. The butcher only needs a tag when you bring in the entire carcass. Seems odd but that's just the way it is.
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Remember, You have the right to remain silent, I suggest you use it, answer questions carefully if you choose to. Always be polite and professional. If you get a ticket, take it to court. You are not required to answer any questions during a TELEPHONE interview. You are not required to answer any questions anytime, remember, you have the right to remain silent. You can hang up the phone anytime during a conversation, even if the officer identifies themselves, there is no way to determine if the voice on the other end is actually a real commissioned officer.
You are required by state law to show positive Identification and proper license and tags for the game you are hunting. If you are in your vehicle you are required to show registration and insurance papers if you are stopped or contacted on a public right of way. Private land is different, so no vehicle papers are required but I would certainly suggest you have a written permission slip allowing you to hunt that land, even though they as law enforcement cannot order you to leave, unless they have a "No Trepass" letter on file at their office or a copy with them. It's still a good idea to have it if possible.
Don't offer any info....PERIOD. Don't cave to the harassment and don't ask any questions, you will not be given an answer. Most officers are fishing for any evidence so they can make the arrest, any arrest, ESPECIALLY game agents. They don't get enough good violations to support their cause and are looking to puff up their chests anytime they can to show their buddies they are doing their job.
I spent way too many years in law enforcement and I know for a fact there are lots of real good solid crimes occurring out there daily, but the Game dept. is looking to turn a minor seatbelt infraction into the largest game violation in the past 100 years. Yes, they can stop you for not wearing a seatbelt on a county or state maintained road regardles of road surface. Game agents in Washington are State certified law enforcement officers, just as any City of Auburn or Seattle officer is commissioned.
Don't get me wrong, we need the State Game Dept. but they do sometimes over extend their duties and do nothing more then cause frustration with lots of sportsmen.
I would like to think of them as being helpful and curtious when you need them, arrest the criminal when they have evidence of a crime and support our sport but so many are just plain rude and unprofessional, mostly the young but not always the case.
NOTE:
This is not legal advice, it's purely common sense, use it if you choose.
I think there is a lot more to this story than what is being told here, it sounds as though the info is distorted in some way and has been filtered down through frustration and anger and maybe even ignorance on maybe the butcher or taxi.
If someone believes a crime has been commited, then the Game Dept. must act. What they do during their investigation is often times misunderstood by non LEO. So I would not get to carried away with rumors and false accusations without knowing first hand the real truth.
I worked with cops that did everything in their power to develope a crime out of nothing and end up with nothing once done, so it happens. In this case it sounds as though the hunter may never see any part of his elk again and have only photos of a good hunt and a bad memory.
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"RCW 77.15.070 Civil Forfeiture of property used for violation of chapter.
Fish and wildlife officers and ex officio fish and wildlife officers may seize without warrant boats, airplanes, vehicles, motorized implements, conveyances, gear, appliances, or other articles thay have probable cause to beleive have been held with intent to violate or used in violation of this title or rule of the commission or director."
"The property seized is subject to forfeiture to the state under this section regardless of ownership."
"Property seized may be recovered by its owner by depositing with the department or into court a cash bond or equivelent security equal to the value of seized property but not more than one hundred thousand dollars."
This is the law folks.
Falfire is correct KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Carl
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I used to be very cooperative and forthright with game wardens, but too many times the ones I have met and/or been checked by have been very unproffesional and ignorant to the rules that they are trying to enforce. I show proper ID/licenses/tags but otherwise I don't b/s with them.
I have many friends in law enforcement and don't feel this way towards WSP, County Sherriffs and local city cops, just game wardens. I've met and been checked by game cops in other states Idaho and Colorado that were very professional I don't know what the difference would be why this state's warden's act and treat hunters/fisherman the way they do. An old friend of mine used to work as a bio for WDFW while he was going to college and he would be with game wardens when they checked fisherman, we got into this discussion one night while drinking beer and he felt fisherman were smartasses and lots of times were doing there best to try and get away with something illegal. So maybe it's one of those deals that you have to have walked in the other guys shoes. I don't know, but I still keep my mouth shut. That and alot of gamies are hunters so I don't like giving away my hunting spots.
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This is the law folks.
Falfire is correct KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Carl
Good Avice Carl- I'll offer one more piece...DON'T BREAK THE DAMN LAWS.
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OK...let's at least get off of the time of death thing!!! That can not be used as evidence for this at all.... You can shoot an animal before dark and have it still stay alive for hours before it dies and you find it.
This must have to do with a witness or other evidence they have as that is all that would stand up.
Let's hope that it's just a miss understanding or someone was mistaken.
This is why there should be no other firearm season going on at the same time any archery season is open. If you want to hunt cougar or bear during archery season, use that appropriate weapon. I have already heard to many times about people shooting elk with a firearm and then sticking it with an arrow to say they killed it with a bow. Anyone caught doing this sort of thing should "never" be allowed to hunt again as they obviously have no respect for wildlife or the sport of hunting.
PLEASE....my last paragraph has nothing to do with the person this thread is about, it's just a statement about how I feel regarding one of our many regulations.
Good luck to your friend.
Fulla
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OK...let's at least get off of the time of death thing!!! That can not be used as evidence for this at all.... You can shoot an animal before dark and have it still stay alive for hours before it dies and you find it.
This must have to do with a witness or other evidence they have as that is all that would stand up.
Let's hope that it's just a miss understanding or someone was mistaken.
This is why there should be no other firearm season going on at the same time any archery season is open. If you want to hunt cougar or bear during archery season, use that appropriate weapon. I have already heard to many times about people shooting elk with a firearm and then sticking it with an arrow to say they killed it with a bow. Anyone caught doing this sort of thing should "never" be allowed to hunt again as they obviously have no respect for wildlife or the sport of hunting.
PLEASE....my last paragraph has nothing to do with the person this thread is about, it's just a statement about how I feel regarding one of our many regulations.
Good luck to your friend.
Fulla
Your opinion concerning eliminating firearms during archery season is unrealistic and selfish. What about the person who can only go during those seasons and does not shoot a bow. While I agree that those people should be punished, don't punish the rest of us for someones actions.
I leave for my RIFLE bear hunt tonight.
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Determining the time of death vs time of shooting is laughable at best....so many factors and the JUDDGMENT of the warden............ good luck with that :chuckle:
I firmly believe the WDFW is totally inept. We could cut there budget by 95% and there would be no perceptible difference. FEDZILLA need's a diet.
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Determining the time of death vs time of shooting is laughable at best....so many factors and the JUDDGMENT of the warden............ good luck with that :chuckle:
I firmly believe the WDFW is totally inept. We could cut there budget by 95% and there would be no perceptible difference. FEDZILLA need's a diet.
what about all the wildlife areas they manage...the research that goes into season setting...are you going to go volunteer to snoeshoe into Pend Oreille County in February to count deer and figure a sex ratio? Are you going to do snowshoe hare scat surveys all summer to determine the amount of prey for lynx? I doubt it.
I disagree with your statment. They have a tough job and are trying to please too many groups, but they're not inept. :twocents:
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SilkWWU, you are correct about probably being unrealistic but I'm not being selfish! It's just frustration talking... The good hunters should not be punished for the few bad ones. They just need to make the punishment stiff enough to discourage it.
Regards,
Fulla
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My butcher requires a tag even if its months later, ground meat in a box to make pepperoni. I haven't read this whole thread so have no idea ehat you are talking about. I can imagine though, and it bottles down to cheaters.
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I cut up my own elk but take the meat we want to use for hambuger to our butcher. I don;t take the head or horns to them but we give our tag to them and they write the GMU and county and date of kill and keep our tag until we return for our meat. They have a big sheet of paper with all the names of the people who bring game in and it has all the information on it like the sex antler points and everything just like you send in at the end of the year. She says the wardens come in and reguarly check the list.
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we must use the same butcher. :)
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My butcher who has made thuringer for me virtually every year for the last 15 years, actually started requiring a tag for all animals about 4 years ago. I used to bring my folks meat from Montana and some of my brothers at times, I'd have chunked meat in there from 5-6 different animals at time, and he had to stop taking it. It was all legal, and we had cut the animals ourselves, but he had to stop unless we had a tag with it. It even went so far as I took him some year old caribou which had been professionally cut and wrapped in Quebec, with French labels, to get ground into thuringer. He couldn't take it as I no longer had my tag. I tried calling the GW to see if they could make an exception, I mean the french labels I felt were pretty obvious, anyway, tried calling and left messages three times, never got a return call. SO I ended up grinding it myself, but yeah, I don't think a butcher in Spokane will take any meat, chunks or a whole carcas without having the tag.
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My butcher has never asked for a tag.
I stand by WDFW being a bloated entity.
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I have met some very nice game wardens but anyone with common sense knows that there are bad apples in there. The more and more I hear about firsthand accounts from friends which were negative the more inclined I am to just reserve my right to show my tags and licenses and say nothing more. Bully tactics may work for them but they are also creating a bad name for themselves if they are bullying people without any credible evidence other than vague suspicion. It's called abuse of authority.
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:)Wacoyotehunter you are correct.
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I agree that there are a lot of game wardens in this state in particular that are *ss holes. I have hunted in many states and actually enjoyed talking to the wardens in just about every state except this one. They have a tough job but they can still get it done without being jerks. Example: My father and I were up turkey hunting. We were driving down for lunch when we came across the warden pulled over on the side of the road. I slowed to a crawl as I passed him and gave him a nod. He motioned me over. He checked our licenses, guns, made us get out of the vehicle and looked through it. He wrote down our license plate # and wild #'s. A little excessive I thought for someone that could have just driven right by him but whatever not a big deal at this point. 30 min later we had our lunch and were going back up. He was just getting into his truck, saw us coming and swung his truck broadside in the road so we couldn't pass. Once again made us go through the whole dang thing. >:( Later we ran into him again as we were walking back to my truck this time and he checked us a third time. It was all I could do to not give the guy a piece of my mind the third time.
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You would like to give them the benefit of the doubt but there are way too many stories and 1st hand accounts of these types of things happening.
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Later we ran into him again as we were walking back to my truck this time and he checked us a third time.
:chuckle: Paranoid?
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I use to always catch flak from them tell I started to work my current job and got a hat that I wear hunting from one of are state conferences and now they dont even ask for ID. Now how in the world does that work :dunno:
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There always is more to a story than meets the eye and the devil in the details. Something has to provoke these guys into action. I haven't met to many vigilante wardens not to say they are out there. I do have to say I respect the job they do and would not want their job.
I hope it all works out for the best for everyone involved.
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:jacked: I was having a hard time buying into the pupild dialating after death thing so I had to look it up. Wow cool that people are able to determine how long something has been dead. But it does say the pupil will only dialate a given amount so if there was a spotlight it would only dialate slightly not completly. So they can determine if a spotlight was used or not. I am not accusing in any way I am a biology major in college and these things are facinating to me. :sry:
Brandon
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Okay, there are a lot of Game Agents that believe they can stop someone, anyone in an area open to hunting without Probable Cause. Some of them are very slow learners, however I discussed this very issue with the State lead instructor on Criminal Law. They are required to follow State laws and the Constitution regarding crimes and traffic related violations, suspicion of a crime that has been committed, in the act of being commited or about to be committed. That is where "Reasonable Suspicion" comes in.
A police officer has to have Probable Cause to stop someone driving a motor vehicle. They do not need Probable Cause to make a "Social Contact" but social contacts are not usually made while operating a motor vehicle, only for an in person, one on one contact. Say for example, you are on the street and you happened to be walking towards the officer and he/she says "Hey how are you today? Where are you going?, that is defined as a social contact and you are not required to stop and answer that question. If the officer stops you walking down the sidewalk going the other direction, waves you down and orders you to cross the street to meet with him/her then asks for Identification and begins asking incriminating questions you are technically being detained and should at that point be advised of your rights. Basically your "Freedom of Movement" has just been seized.
A social contact means your Freedom of Movement has not been seized, you can walk away without saying a word or providing ID. If you are stopped and detained for a suspicion of a crime or a traffic offense or defective vehicle equipment, you are required to show ID, otherwise, you could be facing "Failure to Comply or Obstrucing a Public Sevant" charges and from there they can seize all of your properties with you at the time.
If you are arrested inside of your vehicle your vehicle can be seized and lawfully searched, " Search Incident to Arrest". Game agents are authorized to look into any container that is capable of holding game animals, fish and birds. So don't get bent when they look through your vehicle, they are allowed to do that, even without the arrest thingy. That is about the only thing I'm aware of that is different from standard policing. A City of Tacoma Police Officer cannot stop you in the parking lot to check your bags from Walmart without Probable Cause or Reasonable Suspicion but a State Game agent can check your coolers and containers for birds, game or game fish without either when you are parked in an area open to hunting. It goes deeper than this so do your reading.
If you are arrested outside of your vehicle, the officer can impound the vehicle if it is creating a traffic hazard or leaking oil or fluids into the ground surface which would be an "enviromental hazard" and then they can go through the vehicle to do an inventory of all items. Those items need to be included on the impound form for review at a later date and to add to the validity of the item in the vehicle at the time of impound. Basically, it's a search, it's just not called a search. However, if they find anything unlawful during their "inventory" you can be charged with the crime of possession or depending on whatever they come up with.
Checking you three times with-in one hour is a little unreasonable and you may have a case of officer misconduct if you pressed it. But the most that would happen to the officer is a note from his supervisor telling him to bring back some pizza before the end of shift or he gets to buy the beer later.
Again follow their instructions and don't say a word. If you feel your rights have been violated then by all means contact an attorney that is versed in civil violations and go from there.
Otherwise keep yer piehole shut and smile like a baby.
Officers after making a traffic stop are allowed to ask all parties inside the vehicle to exit, it's called "Officer Safety" and they can do that. However, if you are driving down the road, any road and your buddy is seated in the passenger seat and not wearing a safety belt, you as a driver can be lawfully stopped but the officer can only ask for the passengers ID, not the operator of the vehicle unless he see's the the driver is not wearing a seat belt upon contact with the passenger. Now the driver is fair game. Keep the seat belt on at all times and make damn sure everyone else is wearing theirs.
Commiting a simple violation you are fair game to all officers but to the Game Agent it pure bliss and they will ruin your day if you give them crap. However you do have lawful recouse if you believe you have been treated.
All anyone needs to do is some reading, it's all available online under Title 9 and 9A of the Revised Code of Washington RCW and you also need to know a little about the Washington Administrative Code WAC.
Happy hunting :rolleyes:
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so those of you that have been hassled by game wardens id like to know exactly how they have hassled you, every game warden i have ever met has been kind, courteous, and sometimes even helpful(alot of them know where the game is and are more than willing to help you out) i even had one game warden in 04 when i had my Desert A tag offer to drive me out in his game department pickup on all the closed roads, i didnt take him up on the offer but it was nice of him. give them a chance to me it seems like they are just doing their jobs trying to manage the wildlife to the best of thier abilities, if someone calls in a lead they have to follow it up plain and simple they arent gonna try and falsify a case, if their is a case it will come about for them. thats all
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oh and to pend oreielle adventures im sorry that this happened to your friend and im sure that if he is truly innocent this will all be cleared up in a short time
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Falfire you got most of it right. However, an officer does not need probable cause to stop a vehicle. A stop can be made based solely on reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is basically defined as a set of facts or circumstances which leads an officer to reasonably believe that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed. Depending on the circumstances an officer could stop someone within a vehicle when a crime has not been committed and conduct a temporary detention to determine if criminal activity is afoot. However, state game can conduct checks to verify licenses, animals, etc. I do agree that the three stops made by the game officer was overly excessive especially if the hunters involved had been cooperative to begin with.
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I do agree that the three stops made by the game officer was overly excessive especially if the hunters involved had been cooperative to begin with.
Yeah, nothing to see here. Move along. No harassment or abuse of authoritative powers. Just officer Byrd doing his job.
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Falfire you got most of it right. However, an officer does not need probable cause to stop a vehicle. A stop can be made based solely on reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is basically defined as a set of facts or circumstances which leads an officer to reasonably believe that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed. Depending on the circumstances an officer could stop someone within a vehicle when a crime has not been committed and conduct a temporary detention to determine if criminal activity is afoot. However, state game can conduct checks to verify licenses, animals, etc. I do agree that the three stops made by the game officer was overly excessive especially if the hunters involved had been cooperative to begin with.
Wonky,
I thought I had put that in there.
"A City of Tacoma Police Officer cannot stop you in the parking lot to check your bags from Walmart without Probable Cause or Reasonable Suspicion"
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Falfire and others, nice posts.
My issue is; (I have heard of this, but not seen or experienced it personally...) when a gamie has hunters completely unload their entire canopy or camper of hunting gear onto the ground, the whole camp... in search of a loaded rifle or game. I am going to object to this one, and ask for his PC for the search of this degree. I will follow up, and I will let them know in advance.
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This messed up! Can't wait to read where the probable cause is. I know that when I come back home on leave I buy a resident tag, because Washington is my home of residence, and I also buy a resident Maryland and Virginia hunting tags.
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military is a whole different ball game
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I understand that, but even if you move to Washington state and are in the military you have to wait a certian amount of time before you can buy a WA resident license. If this guy moved to OK, and still kept WA as his home of residence then that should not be a problem.
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I understand that, but even if you move to Washington state and are in the military you have to wait a certian amount of time before you can buy a WA resident license. If this guy moved to OK, and still kept WA as his home of residence then that should not be a problem.
Straight from the regs.
Military personnel permanently stationed at a military installation with in the state of Washington, regardless of length of time in the state, are entitled to purchase a resident license.
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its changed then because it was 90 days, I guy I was stationed with in England got orders to Fairchild and he looked up the regs on line and it said 90 days. He even contacted the game department and they told him 90 days.
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its changed then because it was 90 days, I guy I was stationed with in England got orders to Fairchild and he looked up the regs on line and it said 90 days. He even contacted the game department and they told him 90 days.
As far back as I can remember it has been the same in WA. Dependants do have to wait 90 days.
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Not sure when they changed the law but when I moved into Washington State in March 1980, that was the rule/law back then. Active military called it home where ever they where stationed at the time. If you are saying the law changed before then, you could be correct :dunno:
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Miles,
You should be able to go to the Wa DOL website and update everything there.
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I have had dealings with ted holden, formerly a game wrden in po co. ted was awesome to work with. I know he is over in oly town now. I would call him and ask WTF?
I have been stopped pretty agressivly once, the gamey passed up on a dirt road in okanogan co and turned it sideways in front of us......VERY close to an accident. he was out of his rig yelling for us to get out. he was in a jeep cherokee and it was unmarked. he damn near got two college linbackers for lunch. he was going for our guns and we were pretty agressive twards him, explaining about the differnent places his head was going to be shoved when he pulled his ID. he found nothing and went on his way. he was obviously looking for something and we were not it....but the way he came at us just about got his ass beat.
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The Military personnel can buy tags as soon as they are stationed here, or if this is their home state and they are station in another state. I know this form personnal experince.
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Seems there is alot of this story missing.
So a guy fly's in from somewhere and kills an elk. Takes the elk to the butcher, head to the taxi, and then gets a call from a gamey when he is back home out of state.
So how did the gamey get his number? If it was a person that witnessed the kill, where did he get the number. The guy likely wasnt driving his own vehicle, so they didnt trace the plates. Seems like they could have only got the number from the taxi or butcher. Why would a gamey do that? Did the Taxi or butcher find something? A bullet in the meat? Why the comment about the spotlight? The taxi or butcher wouldnt have known that? Did the hunter hunt on a resident tag? Did he tell the taxi or butcher he flew in from out of state to hunt?
Sounds to me, like the butcher or taxi found a fresh bullet wound, or the guy hunted a resident tag and said too much about being from out of state. The gamey is likely just fishing for a slip of the tongue. If he realy took the meat, then he likely has some evidence.
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It is really starting to look like your buddy killed an elk that was previously shot by a poacher or the previous season and survived; the butcher sees the bullet and calls the game warden.
Most butchers will call game warden if they see something that is not right.
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i have not read the post in a couple of days but i think some one had a axe to grind. as to the post about the four guys getting stopped by a gw in a unmarked rig. I have had some thing similar to me happen in the hills. he was not a gw. I jumped out of my truck in a defensive posture with the 45 on my hip half out of the holster. I have no qualms about being defensive until the id comes out. then it is all on how the other person reacts to me as how the conversation goes.
if he did not shoot it illegally and i don't KNOW if he did then time and money will get him off.
EDITED know insted of think.
i am not acusing any one of wrong doing. it was late. ;)
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i think some one had a axe to grind
I agree! Some guy on here says his buddy shot a critter fair and square and people are all dancing around painting that he's done something wrong without coming out and saying it. Way to go. And you wonder why people would rather talk about politics :chuckle: instead of hunting experiences...
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Just thought id give everyone an update on this and let ya all know what i know about this case!
Here is a short version.
A guy that lives close by watches these guys drive in the area one morning. "By the way he knows them" About an hour later he hears a single gunshot in the area. He doesnt really think nothing of it and goes to town. The next day this guy is showing off his elk rack to everyone and bragging about how good a shot he made on it the previous day.
Well this guy puts two and two together and calls the local warden. They in turn show up and speak with the guy that claims to have shot the elk. The elk which is hanging at the butchers just happens to be chopped up pretty good in a certain area! The area that the arrow supposedly went in has been cut out and removed as well as a pretty good area around it. This was not done by the butcher, this was the way it was when the elk was brought in already skinned. The are still some areas on the elk that have bruising and damage that is consistent with that of a gunshot wound.
The wardens then ask the guy about everything and of course he claims to have shot it with an arrow. He refuses to take the wardens to the kill site or provide any proof that it was shot with an arrow.
So my question is this and I have shot many elk with my bow&arrow, why would you cut out the area that the arrow entered and exited since an arrow usually produces very little trauma to the area. If it was my elk and my livelihood and name to uphold I would gladly jump in the truck and take the wardens to the kill site and let them inspect the organs, gutpile what ever they wanted to prove my innocense. Heck I would have still had the hide in the back of my truck to get tanned. This guy claims it was skinned out in the woods and he left the hide there. THEN WHY NOT GO PROVE YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!
As of right now it looks like this case will be going to Jury Trial. Hope they pick me as a Juror.
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your full of IT................The wdfw has not even pressed charges the elk was skinned at the taxi so ther was a hide in the freezer at the taxi. the area that was cut out was due to blood shot from the arrow they drug the elk out close to a mile with a atv and they didnt tell the warden where it was shot because he has worked hard to find the spot the warden is also a hunter and he didnt want anyone knowing were he killed it.......... Dont tell a story yu have no idea about greta post moron!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Very interesting. It is pretty easy to tell if an area of flesh has been hit by a bullet or by an arrow. Slam dunk forensics case. If they took the meat to be tested they would know. Unless an absolute ton of meat from the impact area was removed would they not. But that would raise a red flag for an arrow kill.
KID
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they tested the meat and hide still havent pressed charges
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I know plenty about this case Brian! Your right the CAPE was at the taxi's, not the whole hide. Like I said if he had nothing to hide then show them the evidence they asked for. Keeping a spot secret is not worth having your name drug through the mud along with losing your hunting privelages and having a criminal record. But hey thats just the way I see it.
Kid,
That is exactly what happened, there was a ton of meat removed from the impact area. You dont get that much trauma from an arrow.
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Was he using a carbon arrow and have it shatter or something? If a carbon arrow shattered or broke up alot I could see cutting some meat out.
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I don't see all you bashers of the game department on here still bashing the gamie after a little more of the story comes out. Plain as day to me and should be to most all hunters who have killed a few animals. Ole boy poached an elk and got caught!!!!!! Just amazes me how quickly a lot of people jumped all over the gamie for doing is job. I don't see any apologies. Anyone can see the truth to this matter in two seconds. Silent-One thank you very much for stepping up with "the rest of the story". Sounds like Brian you have some serious issue with telling the entire truthful story. That in itself completely negates anything you have said in regards to your buddies innocence for me.
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I wouldnt be so quick to judge dblung.. it is infact a online forum, I could say something like that easily as well, Im not saying its bs or not.. just saying.. and I also have not been impressed with the wardens I have met...... not the nicest of folks and I dont break the laws.. they seem to always have a chip on thier shoulder, once I meet a helpful one, ill let you know.. eitherv way this story sucks.............
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pendoreilleadventures, were you with him when this went down? I refuse to believe they'll mess with a guy for no reason at all. Sure hope he didn't do anything wrong but this story is awefull fishy.
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they drug the elk out close to a mile with a atv and they didnt tell the warden where it was shot because he has worked hard to find the spot the warden is also a hunter and he didnt want anyone knowing were he killed it
I was suspending judgement until I read this. I've never met a game warden yet who was a hunter and didn't have more good spots to hunt than he had time to occupy them, including private land!
However, if what POA has claimed is all totally correct, I expect a charge of obstructing will be filed even if the case is dropped. In Wyoming and Idaho, that refusal to reveal the kill site is considered sufficient evidence to charge the noncompliant hunter with the crime being investigated, the game is seized, and judges and juries convict routinely on that basis; in Wyoming the holder of a hunting license is legally obligated to take an officer to the kill site, refusal to do so is a separate crime that can be charged. In Washington it is my understanding it is a separate crime, but still a crime.
I'm happy to be proven wrong - always interested in learning facts. Love to learn the legal process outcome. But when I weigh the assertions stated in this thread, the poacher killer comes off looking pretty bad.
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It is really starting to look like your buddy killed an elk that was previously shot by a poacher or the previous season and survived; the butcher sees the bullet and calls the game warden.
Most butchers will call game warden if they see something that is not right.
This might have happened. My brother is a butcher and we have seen this a few times.
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I personally have the utmost respect for all game wardens. I would hate to be in their shoes, because of all the a$$-holes out there.
I am no expert but usually an arrow leaves almost no bloodshot meat, because there is no blunt force trauma like with a bullet. A broadhead is designed to slice through the hide and cut internal organs. Whereas a bullet can not cut, it simply forces it's way through the skin resulting in massive hydrostatic shock, or bloodshot meat. I am not going to say wether I think the guy is innocent or guilty I will let the invetigators and courts decide if that is where it goes.
Brandon
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I am no expert but usually an arrow leaves almost no bloodshot meat, because there is no blunt force trauma like with a bullet.
After hanging all the pieces from my moose this year that was one thing we noticed, there was absolutley zero bloodshot meat, gotta love archery gear :tup:
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I personally have the utmost respect for all game wardens.
I don't. I talk to them when ever I get a chance. Asked one one time if leaving a yote was considered waste back in the 90's when a lot of buyers didn't want coyotes anymore. "Well, I wouldn't but I can't speak for other wardens." Whats that? Seems like a black and white question for me. Had another game warden who had no idea there were "hunting with written permission signs down south." He tried to tell me there were only the green feel free to hunt. The last time I talked to a gamy I asked if I had to have the blue permission card for coyotes if the landowner gave me permission but said I didn't need the card. He didn't know. I mean come on!! Whats the friggin law? If they don't know who does? I've had lots of landowners say yes to me for yotes but say I don't need the card but they don't know for sure. Thats a big fine but I don't want to press the landowner. On the other hand I don't want to have to fight a tresspass ticket.
I've only met one that really seemed like he knew what he was talking about. The others I've talked to really didn't.
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Dblung why do you have it out for me? You have no reason change my post or call me a liar!!!!!! Do you know me NO!!!!!!! I have been a good poster on this site and i am a site sponsor i run a guide service as well. People can say what they want my friend is going to take a lie detector test on his own dollar so that he can have his attorney get his elk back. they have yet to charge him. and their evidence keeps changing. they said they had an eye witness. then they had the meat tested well guess what no charges. I spoke to my friend and he said there was no way that anyone that he know could have heard a gunshot because he was well away from any houses and it was a BOW KILL.I have killed deer with my bow and had more blood shot then a gun. if you hit a offside shoulder and don't get a pass through it can cause a lot of blood to get between the shoulder and the ribs and brisket. so believe what you want I have never posted any thing on this forum to flaw my character. Oh and Slient-one you must know me........so man up and tell me who you are. Because you sure arnt silent............ >:(
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dang that really sucks
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I also dont pass judgement and I will second the blood loss fact, I have shot one or two animals with a bow and even had so much blood loss on the oposite shoulder it was basically useless.. then other times nothing at all, that all depends on the angle etc.......Im not sure why someone would come on a site and post a bs story about a elk being shot legal if it was not.. doesnt make sense to me and doesnt seem like something i would want public..... innocent until proven guilty for me.......... :twocents:
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POA, I don't have anything against you, personally - as you note I don't know you (and no, I have nothing against guides either). I worked for two state game agencies, and am heartily glad to be out of state government. I don't know the officers involved in this case.
I do apologize for giving offense with the earlier post. I think most who see it, will recognize the satire and that I am not calling you a liar. I don't know your friend either, but I've heard so many stories just like that, where I did know the facts. I have heard dozens, if not hundreds, of poachers lie to their friends and acquaintances, fabricating a fiction because they can't bear to admit their crime. Conversely, though I've been directly or indirectly involved with hundreds of poaching cases, and conversant with the details of many more; I have yet to even suspect an officer of going after someone without reasonable suspicion a crime was committed.
Very, very few poachers man up and admit their crime. Like it or not, every court in the land agrees that law enforcement officers can lie to suspect in the course of investigating a crime. It would not surprise me in the least if the officers involved made false statements to your friend. That's fine in my book. Criminals lie, and often cops have to lie to catch them.
You are a very loyal friend. YOUR friend's story, as you've related it, reeks. Your buddy did everything by the book, some jealous jerk reported him as shooting the bull with a rifle, the wildlife officer investigated, all the evidence on the carcass of cause of death was apparently removed, and your friend refuses to reveal where that evidence can be found. So far, everything reported to the officer is consistent with the reporting party's claim. His explanation for refusing to cooperate and reveal where the bloodshot meat from around the wound can be located is that he won't reveal his honeyhole because the enforcement officer is a hunter?? Sorry, I don't buy it. Might I be wrong? Absolutely! I know nothing about this case except what is posted on this thread.
There's no urgency in the investigation, your buddy's already back home in Oklahoma. Please let us know how it turns out.
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Extremely well put Doublelung!!
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You guys need to keep the private work stuff off of this site and take it to the parking lot.
Our interest is in this case, poaching or not.
Why don't you both delete out the work stuff and leave it for somewhere else?
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I am no expert but usually an arrow leaves almost no bloodshot meat, because there is no blunt force trauma like with a bullet.
Brandon
Most of the time there is no problem, but I have seen some real nasty bloodshot from archery gear.
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Experience can get people in trouble. Not every shot acts the same.
I shot a doe this year with a slicktrick grizz trick and it blew out the opposite shoulder. That shoulder was completely destroyed. A guy helped me skin the deer and he thought I used a magnum to shoot it. When I told him that it was a bow, he was amazed.
I had to throw the entire shoulder away. :'(
I am no expert but usually an arrow leaves almost no bloodshot meat, because there is no blunt force trauma like with a bullet.
Brandon
Most of the time there is no problem, but I have seen some real nasty bloodshot from archery gear.
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i nuked a couple posts on here. take the private stuff off the boards and take it up in pm's if you want to as was mentioned above.
keep it on topic or the whole thing will go away.
thanks for understanding.
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Thanks jackelope.
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Just so you all know, the mods and admins have been (and will continue) to watch this thread. Keep it on topic or it will get locked or deleted. Most mod or admins will give a warning though topics or accounts can and will be deleted without notice.
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control freaks!
DELETE!!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
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:yike:
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:chuckle: :chuckle: :P
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control freaks!
DELETE!!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Did ICE say something? Where did he go?
:chuckle:
Actually I would rather lock it.
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Did ICE say something? Where did he go?
:chuckle:Actually I would rather lock it.
No no no, I was just flippin him some chit :chuckle:
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Just like at home, I am talking, but no one is listening.... :'(
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Did ICE say something? Where did he go?
:chuckle:Actually I would rather lock it.
No no no, I was just flippin him some chit :chuckle:
Same here.
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go head and lock it if the silent one wants to talk he can pm me I will update with a new post when I here anything new.
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If you guys want this post locked that is fine by me. All I did is come on here and post what information I had about this case. If it is not what some of you wanted to hear then I am sorry. I too do not care for the way everone comes on here and bashes the game department. Try walking a mile in there shoes then see what you think about the job they have to do. Brian if I have offended you in any way I apolagize, but I am in a position to know quite a bit about this case and it is not at all what you have stated and I will leave it at that. This is the last you will hear from me on this subject!
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The plot thickens... :hunter: :police:
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I have had both good experiences and bad experiences with Game Wardens. I have tried to keep an open mind, but I can say that I have had far better experiences with Game depts in Idaho, Alaska, and Montana. I have had better luck with the Game Wardens in this state when I make efforts to meet them out of season and start proactive conversations. These folks can be a wealth of information for special tag draws. I spoke with another member this weekend that got quite a bit of information on a moose tag he drew this year in a unit he wasn't all that familiar with.
I look forward to hearing the rest of the story, just to see how it plays out.
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I have been in this situation most of the time at least in my case it was all hear say, UNTIL YOU HAVE SOLID EVIDENCE, It's all *censored* .I am a prime example of how one person can sway the truth. In this case *censored* or not I wasn't there.