Post by: Big Bucks Tim on August 11, 2013, 08:53:02 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 11, 2013, 09:19:28 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2013, 09:29:21 PM
Post by: norsepeak on August 11, 2013, 09:34:03 PM
Post by: HornHoarder on August 11, 2013, 09:39:16 PM
Post by: huntnnw on August 11, 2013, 10:11:34 PM
Post by: TriggerHappy on August 12, 2013, 12:17:14 AM
Post by: 270Shooter on August 12, 2013, 12:22:38 AM
Post by: sfrenger on August 12, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
did a research paper in college and the odds of a white tail and muley crossing are like .02%, so it doesn't happen very often.
If that's true, then there are a hell of a lot of blacktails in northeastern washington between addy and colville and east of 395. I had a game warden tell me they are non-classified wildlife and to kill them onsite. However, in the same breath he told me that they would still prosecute me if I made a mistake. Better to aire on the side of caution and stick to a 3 point.
Post by: buckfvr on August 12, 2013, 07:15:53 PM
Id be curious as to the name of the warden who said a deer of any kind is unclassified in this state. May be a cross, but its still a deer.
sfrenger, where are all the crosses you see ????
Post by: bear hunter on August 12, 2013, 07:35:07 PM
Since antlers are not always the way they describe them in the rule books. I'd say go by the tail. How many crossbreed bucks can there be?:yeah: I see one with Mule deer ears, rack and hide color,but had a whitetail tail. So rule book says whitetail. I always look at the tail if I am having trouble I.D'ing. :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on August 12, 2013, 08:10:04 PM
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on August 12, 2013, 08:42:02 PM
Post by: Elkstuffer on August 12, 2013, 09:07:33 PM
Post by: huntnnw on August 12, 2013, 09:32:53 PM
Post by: Justin7mm on August 12, 2013, 09:40:48 PM
A bio I talked to also said that it was more likely that the w/t bucks would breed a muley doe and not the other way around.
I have heard this too. I also once saw a whitetail buck with mule deer does. I don't think he was a cross, but i wasn't paying that much attention.
Post by: sfrenger on August 13, 2013, 06:09:36 AM
The studies Ive read over the years suggest its generally the more aggressive whitetail bucks that breed the mule does. But given the whitetail buck to doe ratio in an area like this, (ne wa.), it becomes less likely.
Id be curious as to the name of the warden who said a deer of any kind is unclassified in this state. May be a cross, but its still a deer.
sfrenger, where are all the crosses you see ????
Iron mountain area. If you are around my age (43) and have been hunting that area, then you probably know which game warden told me that. He is now retired, but he was the only warden that I didn't think had a chip on his shoulder.
Post by: sfrenger on August 13, 2013, 06:13:53 AM
Since antlers are not always the way they describe them in the rule books. I'd say go by the tail. How many crossbreed bucks can there be?:yeah: I see one with Mule deer ears, rack and hide color,but had a whitetail tail. So rule book says whitetail. I always look at the tail if I am having trouble I.D'ing. :twocents:
Me and two of my friends were making a drive one time and pushed a 4 point cross to a guy. He held up the head and it was a typical 4 point whitetail head and rack. Didn't have a doubt in the world about it being a whitetail. Then I noticed it had a frickin' mule deer tail and butt. I couldn't believe it and then I started seeing them all over the place. Thats when I got checked by this game warden and asked him about it. I haven't hunted that area for years though so maybe they have all been killed off.
Post by: boneaddict on August 13, 2013, 09:07:18 AM
did a research paper in college and the odds of a white tail and muley crossing are like .02%, so it doesn't happen very often.
If that's true, then there are a hell of a lot of blacktails in northeastern washington between addy and colville and east of 395. I had a game warden tell me they are non-classified wildlife and to kill them onsite. However, in the same breath he told me that they would still prosecute me if I made a mistake. Better to aire on the side of caution and stick to a 3 point.
I hang around in that country all the time and see muleys and whitetails but cant think of any crosses. You'll find whitetails with some different shades in their tails, but they aren't hybrids. :dunno: NOT saying there aren't hybrids but find it unlikely they are common there.
Post by: LDennis24 on August 13, 2013, 09:33:30 AM
Post by: boneaddict on August 13, 2013, 11:35:05 AM
It certainly seems reasonable that there would be more out there. Many folks base "hybridization" on antler confirmation, which I think is a big mistake.
That's cool that you got to see that critter in the velvet. 103 is a monster. Is it fairly typical?
Post by: buckfvr on August 13, 2013, 11:44:53 AM
The studies Ive read over the years suggest its generally the more aggressive whitetail bucks that breed the mule does. But given the whitetail buck to doe ratio in an area like this, (ne wa.), it becomes less likely.
Id be curious as to the name of the warden who said a deer of any kind is unclassified in this state. May be a cross, but its still a deer.
sfrenger, where are all the crosses you see ????
Iron mountain area. If you are around my age (43) and have been hunting that area, then you probably know which game warden told me that. He is now retired, but he was the only warden that I didn't think had a chip on his shoulder.
Never hunted there, and not doubting crosses, rather how many. I also have seen one or two over the years, but not in the same area. Ive got 16 years on you and also talked with a game warden about it when I was about your age, and he was an old salt himself, and scoffed at the whole concept......he was even a bow hunter well seasoned.
I know they're out there, just surprised to here of so many. :dunno:
Post by: baldopepper on August 13, 2013, 12:11:13 PM
Post by: PolarBear on August 13, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on August 13, 2013, 04:37:51 PM
A hybrid cannot be determined by antlers, coat, or tail, although many appear to be a mix of the two species, in appearance they can range all the way from one extreme to another. Other than genetic testing, the only reliable differentiation the researchers have found is the metatarsal gland, which is on the outside of the rear leg below the hock joint (it is not the smelly gland you cut around the hamstring to hang by the back legs, that is the tarsal gland). A mule deer metatarsal is monocolor and matches the coat color, and is narrow and 4-5.5" long. A whitetail metatarsal is egg-shaped to round, 1-1.5" across and has a contrasting white-haired center. A hybrid will have a 2.5-3.5" monocolor metatarsal gland.
I have seen three others in Wyoming - twin fawns that we captured in a clover trap during a radio telemetry study, and a dead yearling buck found during a bluetongue mortality survey. I have not seen one in Washington yet.
In captivity, they will cross either way. In the wild, whitetail buck - mule deer doe is the norm, due to the whitetail's longer and more complex pre-mating courtship behavior. A mule deer buck will attempt to breed a hot whitetail doe, but will abandon the effort before the whitetail is ready to breed. Conversely, a whitetail buck will initiate courtship with a mule deer doe, and breed her very quickly. The first case is like dating for 6 months with nothing more than a kiss on the cheek and holding hands, whereas for the whitetail buck it's a score 10 minutes after buying one beer.
Post by: buckfvr on August 13, 2013, 04:43:04 PM
I also read as much of Geists material as I can.
Post by: sfrenger on August 13, 2013, 06:54:20 PM
did a research paper in college and the odds of a white tail and muley crossing are like .02%, so it doesn't happen very often.
If that's true, then there are a hell of a lot of blacktails in northeastern washington between addy and colville and east of 395. I had a game warden tell me they are non-classified wildlife and to kill them onsite. However, in the same breath he told me that they would still prosecute me if I made a mistake. Better to aire on the side of caution and stick to a 3 point.
I hang around in that country all the time and see muleys and whitetails but cant think of any crosses. You'll find whitetails with some different shades in their tails, but they aren't hybrids. :dunno: NOT saying there aren't hybrids but find it unlikely they are common there.
I lived up there, hunted up there, worked up there. Now I live between there and spokane. I have seen and killed my share of deer. Whitetails are my specialty, so i'm sure I would recognize the difference between a wt and a muley. Besides, that's not the only one i've seen up there. That's just the only dead one i've ever seen.
Post by: sfrenger on August 13, 2013, 07:01:25 PM
Great info, thanks !!!!
I also read as much of Geists material as I can.
:yeah:
Post by: bowhunterforever on August 13, 2013, 07:01:32 PM
I currently have the largest whitetail shed in the state and I have always believed it was a cross. It looks more like a mule deer antler on the base with a small eye guard for its size, but has points like a whitetail down the main beam and lays like a whitetail antler would lay. I was at the Big Horn show and spoke to the NW BIG GAME guys about the record book for Washington when it was first being published and they wanted to look at all my sheds so we set up a time to score them all with a buddy of mines sheds from the Cheney area. Anyway they couldn't believe the size of the antler I had and one of them told me to take it to a guy in Spokane who could show it to Rocky Spencer and a deer expert. Rocky and this guy looked at the antler and said from what he could gather it was indeed a cross and wanted to know where I got it and if it resembled a whitetail in body features or just a weird mule deer. I told them I had seen the deer in the velvet many times and it was indeed a whitetail. Then I told him the area and he stated that several crosses had been seen there and netted and that USUALLY they don't survive the first year or two because they have issues with escaping predators. He said mule deer bound alot and whitetail like to sprint and the little guys would mix sprinting and bounding and get picked off so... in the end they don't seem to live very long because of this. That was his theory on it anyway. So they decided it was a whitetail and entered it that way in the book. Score was 103 and some change if I remember right...Lets see the shed :drool:
Post by: couesbitten on August 13, 2013, 07:28:29 PM
Post by: superdown on August 13, 2013, 07:29:45 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 13, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
I currently have the largest whitetail shed in the state and I have always believed it was a cross. It looks more like a mule deer antler on the base with a small eye guard for its size, but has points like a whitetail down the main beam and lays like a whitetail antler would lay. I was at the Big Horn show and spoke to the NW BIG GAME guys about the record book for Washington when it was first being published and they wanted to look at all my sheds so we set up a time to score them all with a buddy of mines sheds from the Cheney area. Anyway they couldn't believe the size of the antler I had and one of them told me to take it to a guy in Spokane who could show it to Rocky Spencer and a deer expert. Rocky and this guy looked at the antler and said from what he could gather it was indeed a cross and wanted to know where I got it and if it resembled a whitetail in body features or just a weird mule deer. I told them I had seen the deer in the velvet many times and it was indeed a whitetail. Then I told him the area and he stated that several crosses had been seen there and netted and that USUALLY they don't survive the first year or two because they have issues with escaping predators. He said mule deer bound alot and whitetail like to sprint and the little guys would mix sprinting and bounding and get picked off so... in the end they don't seem to live very long because of this. That was his theory on it anyway. So they decided it was a whitetail and entered it that way in the book. Score was 103 and some change if I remember right...
Lets see a picture!
Although I will say it may be the biggest whitetail shed in the state on record, there are some sleepers out there over 103"
Post by: huntnnw on August 13, 2013, 09:26:10 PM
If its a non typ shed I know for sure its not the biggest. My book has bigger sheds entered...My guess is it must be a typical.
Alot of guys see forked whitetail tines and automatically assume its got mule deer in it. If you have never hunted mountain whiteys then you would know most mature 5.5 and older start growing trash and splt tines.
Post by: boneaddict on August 13, 2013, 10:05:22 PM
Post by: Smossy on August 13, 2013, 10:06:32 PM
Post by: huntnnw on August 13, 2013, 10:07:09 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 13, 2013, 10:47:50 PM
1. 103 3/8 Stevens Co. Levi D.E. Raczykowski 2000
2. 102 6/8 Okanogan Co. Louis Zabreznik 1960
3. 102 4/8 Spokane Co. Levi Dennis 1999
4. 101 1/8 Chelan Co. Mike Damery 1996
5. 93 6/8 Chelan Co. Mike Damery 1996
6. 93 2/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 2000
7. 90 7/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1998
8. 90 1/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1999
9. 89 5/8 Stevens Co. Larry J. Walker 1996
10. 88 1/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1999
Post by: alwinearcher on August 13, 2013, 11:35:37 PM
1. 103 3/8 Stevens Co. Levi D.E. Raczykowski 2000
2. 102 6/8 Okanogan Co. Louis Zabreznik 1960
3. 102 4/8 Spokane Co. Levi Dennis 1999
4. 101 1/8 Chelan Co. Mike Damery 1996
5. 93 6/8 Chelan Co. Mike Damery 1996
6. 93 2/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 2000
7. 90 7/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1998
8. 90 1/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1999
9. 89 5/8 Stevens Co. Larry J. Walker 1996
10. 88 1/8 Ferry Co. Henry and Kris Goff 1999
Bunch of sandbaggers dont enter the big ones into the books I guess :chuckle:
I know ive held atleast one that went 112" and change... Sure as heck not in my collection though lol
Post by: huntnnw on August 13, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 14, 2013, 01:20:07 AM
I've seen and held a set from the Rice area that would beat Milo Hansens buck as well, so yes, a lot of them don't get entered.
Post by: alwinearcher on August 14, 2013, 01:22:55 AM
Yeah, I have the third in the world Muley typical from Washington state and I never entered it. Its in the NASHC, but by the time I entered all of my sheds in the state book, I could finance a shed hunting trip to Alaska. :)I was just looking through all the top ten categories for WA and I said to myself, I could get in a handful of these... Then I realized it costs money and said forget that! lol
I've seen and held a set from the Rice area that would beat Milo Hansens buck as well, so yes, a lot of them don't get entered.
Ive heard about that Rice set.. Man Id like to seem them some day! :drool:
Post by: huntnnw on August 14, 2013, 01:26:03 AM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on August 14, 2013, 05:58:13 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 14, 2013, 06:26:12 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa139%2Fshanewa300%2FHunting%2F8.jpg&hash=f3f74bee5b04cfa2c342c1895c9d69e31e04950b) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/shanewa300/media/Hunting/8.jpg.html)
Post by: LDennis24 on August 14, 2013, 05:17:56 PM
Post by: buckfvr on August 14, 2013, 05:57:17 PM
Yeah, I have the third in the world Muley typical from Washington state and I never entered it. Its in the NASHC, but by the time I entered all of my sheds in the state book, I could finance a shed hunting trip to Alaska. :)
I've seen and held a set from the Rice area that would beat Milo Hansens buck as well, so yes, a lot of them don't get entered.
Theres guys in the general Rice area that throw racks in the pile that most guys here would have mounted, scored, and entered........they like their big bucks, but no noteriety...........Ive met the guy who has the number 5 typical whitetail for Wa., and I didnt even know it was him, he subtly mentioned how things were in the way back, and I caught on when I got home and sniffed around a bit.....cant wait to see him this year and pick his brain a bit.
Post by: boneaddict on August 15, 2013, 07:16:29 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 15, 2013, 03:51:38 PM
If it weren't for trailcameras there are whitetails in that region that would never be seen by man, not even the ones in town.
:yeah: I saw a whitetail buck in Rice at about midnight once that I still question if I really saw him. I swear he was two feet wide and TALL with a ridiculous amount of trash.
Post by: LDennis24 on August 16, 2013, 05:30:23 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on August 16, 2013, 05:46:07 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 16, 2013, 10:16:47 PM
Tah Dah! Figured it out!Thats a slob!
It does have a Mule deerish look to it.
Post by: bowhunterforever on August 17, 2013, 12:40:17 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on August 18, 2013, 01:33:06 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 19, 2013, 08:32:05 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 20, 2013, 12:54:27 AM
Post by: borntoslay on August 20, 2013, 05:45:05 PM