Quick question about muley/white tail cross

[Justin7mm]

A bio I talked to also said that it was more likely that the w/t bucks would breed a muley doe and not the other way around.

I have heard this too.  I also once saw a whitetail buck with mule deer does.  I don't think he was a cross, but i wasn't paying that much attention.

[sfrenger]

The studies Ive read over the years suggest its generally the more aggressive whitetail bucks that breed the mule does.  But given the whitetail buck to doe ratio in an area like this, (ne wa.),  it becomes less likely.

Id be curious as to the name of the warden who said a deer of any kind is unclassified in this state.  May be a cross, but its still a deer. 

sfrenger, where are all the crosses you see ?

Iron mountain area. If you are around my age (43) and have been hunting that area, then you probably know which game warden told me that. He is now retired, but he was the only warden that I didn't think had a chip on his shoulder.

[sfrenger]

Since antlers are not always the way they describe them in the rule books.  I'd say go by the tail.  How many crossbreed bucks can there be?

I see one with Mule deer ears, rack and hide color,but had a whitetail tail. So rule book says whitetail. I always look at the tail if I am having trouble I.D'ing. 

Me and two of my friends were making a drive one time and pushed a 4 point cross to a guy. He held up the head and it was a typical 4 point whitetail head and rack. Didn't have a doubt in the world about it being a whitetail. Then I noticed it had a frickin' mule deer tail and butt. I couldn't believe it and then I started seeing them all over the place. Thats when I got checked by this game warden and asked him about it. I haven't hunted that area for years though so maybe they have all been killed off.

[boneaddict]

did a research paper in college and the odds of a white tail and muley crossing are like .02%, so it doesn't happen very often.

If that's true, then there are a hell of a lot of blacktails in northeastern washington between addy and colville and east of 395. I had a game warden tell me they are non-classified wildlife and to kill them onsite. However, in the same breath he told me that they would still prosecute me if I made a mistake. Better to aire on the side of caution and stick to a 3 point.

I hang around in that country all the time and see muleys and whitetails but cant think of any crosses.   You'll find whitetails with some different shades in their tails, but they aren't hybrids.     NOT saying there aren't hybrids but find it unlikely they are common there.

[LDennis24]

   I currently have the largest whitetail shed in the state and I have always believed it was a cross. It looks more like a mule deer antler on the base with a small eye guard for its size, but has points like a whitetail down the main beam and lays like a whitetail antler would lay. I was at the Big Horn show and spoke to the NW BIG GAME guys about the record book for Washington when it was first being published and they wanted to look at all my sheds so we set up a time to score them all with a buddy of mines sheds from the Cheney area. Anyway they couldn't believe the size of the antler I had and one of them told me to take it to a guy in Spokane who could show it to Rocky Spencer and a deer expert. Rocky and this guy looked at the antler and said from what he could gather it was indeed a cross and wanted to know where I got it and if it resembled a whitetail in body features or just a weird mule deer. I told them I had seen the deer in the velvet many times and it was indeed a whitetail. Then I told him the area and he stated that several crosses had been seen there and netted and that USUALLY they don't survive the first year or two because they have issues with escaping predators. He said mule deer bound alot and whitetail like to sprint and the little guys would mix sprinting and bounding and get picked off so... in the end they don't seem to live very long because of this. That was his theory on it anyway. So they decided it was a whitetail and entered it that way in the book. Score was 103 and some change if I remember right...

[boneaddict]

    The theory sounds very plausible.   

It certainly seems reasonable that there would be more out there.  Many folks base "hybridization" on antler confirmation, which I think is a big mistake.   

That's cool that you got to see that critter in the velvet.   103 is a monster.  Is it fairly typical?

[buckfvr]

The studies Ive read over the years suggest its generally the more aggressive whitetail bucks that breed the mule does.  But given the whitetail buck to doe ratio in an area like this, (ne wa.),  it becomes less likely.

Id be curious as to the name of the warden who said a deer of any kind is unclassified in this state.  May be a cross, but its still a deer. 

sfrenger, where are all the crosses you see ?

Iron mountain area. If you are around my age (43) and have been hunting that area, then you probably know which game warden told me that. He is now retired, but he was the only warden that I didn't think had a chip on his shoulder.

Never hunted there, and not doubting crosses, rather how many.  I also have seen one or two over the years,  but not in the same area.  Ive got 16 years on you and also talked with a game warden about it when I was about your age, and he was an old salt himself, and scoffed at the whole concept......he was even a bow hunter well seasoned.

I know they're out there, just surprised to here of so many.   

[baldopepper]

I spend a good deal of time at my home just outside of Hunters and I'm fairly sure there are several hybrids in the area.  Our mule deer population has grown dramatically in the last few years and it's very common now to see mixed herds around our home.  On almost any given evening we see 15-20 head of deer from our deck and while most commonly the whitetail are with whitetail and the mulies with mulies, the last 4-5 years I'm seeing more mixed groups. In the winter months they gather around the immediate area of our house and mingle together like cattle.  I've never shot one there that I could definitely say was a mix, but I've seen several that I was very suspicious of.  It's hard for me not to believe there isnt' interbreeding when they mix so closely together as they do in that area.  That's a 4 point area for whities so I suppose you should just shoot 4 points to be safe.

[PolarBear]

For each of the past 3 years we have had a whitetail doe with twin mule deer fawns on her in Republic. 

[DOUBLELUNG]

At the risk of sounding like Cliff Claven, I've had an interest in mule deer x whitetail hybrids for a couple of decades.  It started with a giant 29" 5x5 that was poached in January south of Douglas WY in the early 1990s, very similar to what LDennis24 described - without the carcass, it looked just like a ginormous whitetail rack.  However, other than the antlers, that buck was "all mule deer" in appearance.  LD is also correct about their low survival due to disrupted predation avoidance response, this has been studied both in Canada (Valerius Geist) and Arizona (Jim Heffelfinger). 

A hybrid cannot be determined by antlers, coat, or tail, although many appear to be a mix of the two species, in appearance they can range all the way from one extreme to another.  Other than genetic testing, the only reliable differentiation the researchers have found is the metatarsal gland, which is on the outside of the rear leg below the hock joint (it is not the smelly gland you cut around the hamstring to hang by the back legs, that is the tarsal gland).  A mule deer metatarsal is monocolor and matches the coat color, and is narrow and 4-5.5" long.  A whitetail metatarsal is egg-shaped to round, 1-1.5" across and has a contrasting white-haired center.  A hybrid will have a 2.5-3.5" monocolor metatarsal gland. 

I have seen three others in Wyoming - twin fawns that we captured in a clover trap during a radio telemetry study, and a dead yearling buck found during a bluetongue mortality survey.  I have not seen one in Washington yet. 

In captivity, they will cross either way.  In the wild, whitetail buck - mule deer doe is the norm, due to the whitetail's longer and more complex pre-mating courtship behavior.  A mule deer buck will attempt to breed a hot whitetail doe, but will abandon the effort before the whitetail is ready to breed.  Conversely, a whitetail buck will initiate courtship with a mule deer doe, and breed her very quickly.  The first case is like dating for 6 months with nothing more than a kiss on the cheek and holding hands, whereas for the whitetail buck it's a score 10 minutes after buying one beer. 

[buckfvr]

Great info, thanks !!!!

I also read as much of Geists material as I can.

[sfrenger]

did a research paper in college and the odds of a white tail and muley crossing are like .02%, so it doesn't happen very often.

If that's true, then there are a hell of a lot of blacktails in northeastern washington between addy and colville and east of 395. I had a game warden tell me they are non-classified wildlife and to kill them onsite. However, in the same breath he told me that they would still prosecute me if I made a mistake. Better to aire on the side of caution and stick to a 3 point.

I hang around in that country all the time and see muleys and whitetails but cant think of any crosses.   You'll find whitetails with some different shades in their tails, but they aren't hybrids.     NOT saying there aren't hybrids but find it unlikely they are common there.

I lived up there, hunted up there, worked up there. Now I live between there and spokane. I have seen and killed my share of deer. Whitetails are my specialty, so i'm sure I would recognize the difference between a wt and a muley. Besides, that's not the only one i've seen up there. That's just the only dead one i've ever seen.

[sfrenger]

Great info, thanks !!!!

I also read as much of Geists material as I can.

 

[bowhunterforever]

   I currently have the largest whitetail shed in the state and I have always believed it was a cross. It looks more like a mule deer antler on the base with a small eye guard for its size, but has points like a whitetail down the main beam and lays like a whitetail antler would lay. I was at the Big Horn show and spoke to the NW BIG GAME guys about the record book for Washington when it was first being published and they wanted to look at all my sheds so we set up a time to score them all with a buddy of mines sheds from the Cheney area. Anyway they couldn't believe the size of the antler I had and one of them told me to take it to a guy in Spokane who could show it to Rocky Spencer and a deer expert. Rocky and this guy looked at the antler and said from what he could gather it was indeed a cross and wanted to know where I got it and if it resembled a whitetail in body features or just a weird mule deer. I told them I had seen the deer in the velvet many times and it was indeed a whitetail. Then I told him the area and he stated that several crosses had been seen there and netted and that USUALLY they don't survive the first year or two because they have issues with escaping predators. He said mule deer bound alot and whitetail like to sprint and the little guys would mix sprinting and bounding and get picked off so... in the end they don't seem to live very long because of this. That was his theory on it anyway. So they decided it was a whitetail and entered it that way in the book. Score was 103 and some change if I remember right...

Lets see the shed

[couesbitten]