Post by: W_Ellison2011 on November 28, 2013, 06:54:15 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 28, 2013, 07:01:56 PM
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on November 28, 2013, 07:04:36 PM
Post by: paytonma on November 28, 2013, 07:05:38 PM
that's not true actually carpsniperg2 because the inline muzzleloaders enclose the caps thus shielding them from the weather. Is there a part that can change that?not all inlines enclose the cap lots of different kinds
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 07:08:24 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 28, 2013, 07:10:44 PM
Not all inlines close like you are talking about. knight tc cva traditions etc all have guns that are inline and have some kind of open breech.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on November 28, 2013, 07:13:53 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 28, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
Post by: Whitpirate on November 28, 2013, 07:24:52 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on November 28, 2013, 07:35:59 PM
Post by: Bob33 on November 28, 2013, 07:38:52 PM
My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.Ignition has nothing to do with range. Sights are the primary limitation, and always have been.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 28, 2013, 07:48:03 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on November 28, 2013, 09:01:42 PM
Ok so I'm not trying to start an argument or anything of that sort. I'm just wanting some information. So I've seen a lot of people hunting in Washington state with the inline muzzle loaders. My question is.. are they legal? I know that stock they aren't because they require a 209 primer and some people claim there is something you can buy to change it from using a 209 primer. My real thing is that according to the regulations it states that the cap MUST be EXPOSED to the elements at all times. Is there an insert for these muzzle loaders that allows the cap to be in the open even when the bolts are shut or for the break open ones is there something that you put onto them to expose them?
This is a Knight DISC Extreme - Inline bolt rifle... It has a Western Kit installed and it and shoots percussion caps.
The rule suggests that when the rifle is in the ready to fire position the cap must be visible and exposed to the weather.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=da3cd154ab3e2a545c4ac3ae735f9c99f5f1163b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/P1010014.jpg.html)
This was approved by all three Pacific Northwest States Fish and Game Departments.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 28, 2013, 09:04:28 PM
Ok so I'm not trying to start an argument or anything of that sort. I'm just wanting some information. So I've seen a lot of people hunting in Washington state with the inline muzzle loaders. My question is.. are they legal? I know that stock they aren't because they require a 209 primer and some people claim there is something you can buy to change it from using a 209 primer. My real thing is that according to the regulations it states that the cap MUST be EXPOSED to the elements at all times. Is there an insert for these muzzle loaders that allows the cap to be in the open even when the bolts are shut or for the break open ones is there something that you put onto them to expose them?
This is a Knight DISC Extreme - Inline bolt rifle... It has a Western Kit installed and it and shoots percussion caps.
The rule suggests that when the rifle is in the ready to fire position the cap must be visible and exposed to the weather.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=da3cd154ab3e2a545c4ac3ae735f9c99f5f1163b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/P1010014.jpg.html)
This was approved by all three Pacific Northwest States Fish and Game Departments.
Please copy and paste in the regs where you are finding where it says "ready to fire" I am in the rules section on page 76 and can not find "ready to fire" anywhere in that section. It says "Exposed to the weather means the
percussion cap or the frizzen must
be visible and not capable of being
enclosed by an integral part of the
weapon proper"
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 28, 2013, 09:06:36 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on November 28, 2013, 09:21:11 PM
You are correct the Idaho rule says 'ready to fire'
Post by: Sabotloader on November 28, 2013, 09:26:24 PM
I think ignition does have to something to do with accuracy as far as pressures and everything are concerned. I shoot a black diamond xr. It is very legal in Washington state shooting a musket cap.
Type of ignition has very little to do with range or velocity. But it can have a lot to do with 'Lock Time'. Which is/was one of the Traditional groups biggest arguments about inlines for years.
I have conducted several chono tests using different ignition systems and the really is not much difference in velocity of the given bullet with a given powder.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 28, 2013, 09:28:28 PM
10thmountainarcher
You are correct the Idaho rule says 'ready to fire'
Thanks for clarifying I thought I was losing it because I have seen a few people mention it haha.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on November 28, 2013, 10:54:10 PM
Actually the ignition DOES have a huge effect on range and velocity. Think about it.. if you ignition fires hotter and faster then the propellent or powder will react faster and burn faster thus giving you a much smoother burn. Where as if your ignition is a littler slower or not as hot the powder won't get as much of a initial burn or reaction thus the slower rate of burn means less pressure and thus less velocity and range.I think ignition does have to something to do with accuracy as far as pressures and everything are concerned. I shoot a black diamond xr. It is very legal in Washington state shooting a musket cap.
Type of ignition has very little to do with range or velocity. But it can have a lot to do with 'Lock Time'. Which is/was one of the Traditional groups biggest arguments about inlines for years.
I have conducted several chono tests using different ignition systems and the really is not much difference in velocity of the given bullet with a given powder.
Post by: longrangekiller on November 29, 2013, 12:27:56 AM
Post by: RG on November 29, 2013, 07:21:39 AM
Post by: Bookworm007 on November 29, 2013, 08:11:10 AM
Accuracy of the gun us unaffected by the ignition. My flintlocks shoot as well as my cap lock traditional guns and my White's inline. It's the nut behind the gun that makes the difference. I hunt with the flintlocks and they are much harder to shoot accurately because of the lock time, .25 seconds +- delay. If I don't practice with them I miss the first shot of the season. They have green mountain barrels and will cloverleaf shots at 100 yards with patched round balls and goex black powder. I'm a traditionalist and ride old classic hand made saddles on my horses too, that's the way I roll but I also welcome the inline guns my hunting partners bring to camp. It's the sport, not the tool that counts.
Post by: Runamuck on November 29, 2013, 08:14:33 AM
bobcat you are the only one that has given me a decent response on this. I've been asking it for years now and that response will satisfy me. I agree that the regs were written in a way that inlines were meant to be illegal to hunt with in Washington. My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.
If WDFW wanted inlines to be illegal....they would be....... :bash: :bash:
Post by: scottcrb on November 29, 2013, 08:15:21 AM
Yeah I think the open sights are the biggest limitation as well. at much over 100-125 yards the majority of the animal is covered by the front bead.My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.Sights are the primary limitation, and always have been.
Post by: Lingcod on November 29, 2013, 10:42:50 AM
The way Washington set the regs up stiil makes it challenging to use modern inline muzzleloaders. It hasn't happened to me but I have heard from a lot of guys that they have missed out on nice animals because of miss fires due to the combination of the open breech and the #11 caps, and for this reason they switched back to modern. Also getting your load set up and practicing takes much more time than sighting in a modern rifle.
If using inlines in wa state was easy everybody would be doing it. I think they have it right allowing modern equipment while still making it challenging.
Post by: Sabotloader on November 29, 2013, 10:54:40 AM
I think ignition does have to something to do with accuracy as far as pressures and everything are concerned. I shoot a black diamond xr. It is very legal in Washington state shooting a musket cap.
Type of ignition has very little to do with range or velocity. But it can have a lot to do with 'Lock Time'. Which is/was one of the Traditional groups biggest arguments about inlines for years.
I have conducted several chono tests using different ignition systems and the really is not much difference in velocity of the given bullet with a given powder.
Actually the ignition DOES have a huge effect on range and velocity. Think about it.. if you ignition fires hotter and faster then the propellent or powder will react faster and burn faster thus giving you a much smoother burn. Where as if your ignition is a littler slower or not as hot the powder won't get as much of a initial burn or reaction thus the slower rate of burn means less pressure and thus less velocity and range.
As an example I would ask you to look at these velocities all fired the same day with the same powder. Primers used were all types from the hottest primer to the coolest ML primers. The variance was not that much.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FTargets%2F4-25-10KDExBHTest.jpg&hash=2511d2247d15acdd5eedb65e26eb6674f84ae14a) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Targets/4-25-10KDExBHTest.jpg.html)
This target was shot from an old Austin and Halleck with a #11 Mag cap. You have to do some searching to do the comparison and keep in mind the upper target was BH-209 which normally creates about 100 fps with a 250 grain bullet than does T7. So comparing the 250 grain bullets shot in the target below, add about 100 fps if the were BH209 and you can see the final velocity would be approximately the same.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FTargets%2FAHTarget4.jpg&hash=d72d91ecb076e947cd7eaedfb736dec228daf38d) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Targets/AHTarget4.jpg.html)
And to go along with all of this - primers make a good deal of difference with real Smokeless Progressive burning powders used in centerfire rifles and pistols.
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 29, 2013, 08:59:00 PM
As far as inlines shooting farther & more accurate than traditional side-locks, I believe there is a misconception there. It has nothing to do with the ignition type and everything to do with the barrel. If you take a Kentucky long rifle with 1-78 twist shooting patched round balls with 100 grns of powder, and then take that load and put it in a knight bighorn with a 1-28 twist the Kentucky will out shoot the inline every day. Then switch the scenario and try shooting a sabot out of your old Kentucky long rifle and see what happens. Each rifle shoots with a specific barrel meant to be loaded with a certain type of load. Apples and Oranges. My hawkens shoots great out to 150 yards and if I lighten up my conical from 425 to 350 I could shoot farther. But I cant see past 100 yards open sights no matter what gun it is. So its a moot point.
And there are many inlines that are legal in Washington. I just bought a old T/C scout. Its breach is completely out in the open And it only shoots with number 11 caps. Just my two :twocents:
Post by: Dan-o on November 29, 2013, 09:39:02 PM
bobcat you are the only one that has given me a decent response on this. I've been asking it for years now and that response will satisfy me. I agree that the regs were written in a way that inlines were meant to be illegal to hunt with in Washington. My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.
That's just funny..... you ask a question, get the correct answer and then reject it..... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
If WDFW wanted inlines to be illegal, they could have:
a) Mandated that the ignition must be exposed to the elements
b) Mandated percussion caps or musket caps only
c) Outlawed hunting on Sundays
d) Made inline muzzleloaders illegal
Post by: BOOM!! on November 30, 2013, 08:54:01 AM
bobcat you are the only one that has given me a decent response on this. I've been asking it for years now and that response will satisfy me. I agree that the regs were written in a way that inlines were meant to be illegal to hunt with in Washington. My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.
That's just funny..... you ask a question, get the correct answer and then reject it..... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
If WDFW wanted inlines to be illegal, they could have:
a) Mandated that the ignition must be exposed to the elements
b) Mandated percussion caps or musket caps only
c) Outlawed hunting on Sundays
d) Made inline muzzleloaders illegal
You make it seem like they can do anything they want? Dem bass turds :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: kerrdog on November 30, 2013, 12:49:33 PM
bobcat you are the only one that has given me a decent response on this. I've been asking it for years now and that response will satisfy me. I agree that the regs were written in a way that inlines were meant to be illegal to hunt with in Washington. My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.
Thanks for this post. :chuckle:
Post by: Capt. Rob on December 02, 2013, 04:12:25 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on December 02, 2013, 04:40:23 PM
bobcat you are the only one that has given me a decent response on this. I've been asking it for years now and that response will satisfy me. I agree that the regs were written in a way that inlines were meant to be illegal to hunt with in Washington. My reasoning behind this is because they want muzzleloader hunters to have more of a challenge and with the inlines now they can shoot 250-300 yards where as like with my old hawkens .50 cal I wouldn't shoot beyond 100 yards even with a sabot.
Well, even today that is not true anymore...
This is on of my Renegade sidlelocks with a GM barrel on it and if I were to put a scope on it I could do anything a modern scoped inline using BP or BP subs can do. Smokeless ML's can stretch the envelope a little further.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2FP1010006-1.jpg&hash=f0e89aba034d00b87fed498ee8217ca20cf310c5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Archive/P1010006-1.jpg.html)
With open sights I have a self imposed range of 150 yards on a deer and 200 on an elk... using a peep sight system like a Lyman sight system or TC mounted on the tang.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FTCTangSight.jpg&hash=fa846f7ca0cb2d6650a1ea6c3af57895e33be9b2) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/TCTangSight.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLymanGrad.jpg&hash=6e4e27b06deb37ebdef1e9b69a57fd65bb13fad2) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/LymanGrad.jpg.html)
The real factor in distance shooting is the sight system that you are using...