Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 11:36:47 AM
Not ready to throw this guy Wade Lemon and his son under the bus yet, but wanted to hear if anyone else has seen or heard of such activity?
Its getting to where fame and money is turning guys to raising pen raised monster bulls and buck and releasing them into public lands or at least onto "non_highfenced" ranches and charging OUTRAGEOUS prices to shoot the next "world record".
IMHO the record books should have different categories for Public lands, Native Hunters, Ranches (fair chase), Governors tags and any non standard state season hunts, High Fenced hunts (not fair chase). With all of the different tags and ways to harvest trophies now a days, the record books need to rewrite there books and different categories, so we can start comparing apples to apples and eliminate this HUGE grey discrepancy area.
Your thoughts?
Post by: Broken Arrow on December 30, 2013, 11:38:12 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on December 30, 2013, 11:40:16 AM
Is there a story or link with this?
:yeah:
Post by: idahohuntr on December 30, 2013, 11:48:45 AM
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 11:49:45 AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=715065635183704&set=a.612949915395277.1073741825.201409103216029&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=715065635183704&set=a.612949915395277.1073741825.201409103216029&type=1&theater)
:sry:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 11:59:14 AM
I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 12:02:42 PM
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
Post by: Gringo31 on December 30, 2013, 12:04:03 PM
But it seems to me there should be hell to pay for releasing any deer/elk into the "wild" from a non wild environment. Speaking of disease etc....
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 12:07:55 PM
Record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter. At least that's always been my understanding. I don't necessarily agree with differentiating between public land versus private land hunts. All you would have then is people lying about exactly which side of the line their trophy was taken.
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 12:08:02 PM
What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
:yeah:
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
Record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter. At least that's always been my understanding. I don't necessarily agree with differentiating between public land versus private land hunts. All you would have then is people lying about exactly which side of the line their trophy was taken.
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
Then don't allow "hunting".
Post by: vandeman17 on December 30, 2013, 12:11:13 PM
Record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter. At least that's always been my understanding. I don't necessarily agree with differentiating between public land versus private land hunts. All you would have then is people lying about exactly which side of the line their trophy was taken.
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
Then don't allow "hunting".
I agree Pianoman but those animals are raised to be slaughtered and not hunting. I think that is where the difference lies. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 12:11:35 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on December 30, 2013, 12:12:06 PM
Record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter. At least that's always been my understanding. I don't necessarily agree with differentiating between public land versus private land hunts. All you would have then is people lying about exactly which side of the line their trophy was taken.
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
:yeah: One policy where Washington State actually applied some foresight.
Non-native species provide meat as well for the commercial market, without a lot of the potential problems.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 12:13:37 PM
Record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter. At least that's always been my understanding. I don't necessarily agree with differentiating between public land versus private land hunts. All you would have then is people lying about exactly which side of the line their trophy was taken.
I think record books should stay as they are. What SHOULD change is that private ownership of native big game animals should be illegal, nationwide. And high fences that don't allow wild animals to cross through, should also be illegal.
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
Then don't allow "hunting".
I agree Pianoman but those animals are raised to be slaughtered and not hunting. I think that is where the difference lies. :twocents:
Isn't that what they do at high fence hunt ranches? They're basically slaughtering raised livestock. Again, I'm not going to one. But just because I don't want to do it doesn't mean I have to campaign for others to not have that opportunity.
Post by: Bullkllr on December 30, 2013, 12:15:22 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 12:19:51 PM
Quote
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds?
Yes I do. I hate seeing elk and whitetail deer being raised like livestock. Bison are different since they are not considered to be wildlife- they ARE livestock.
I don't know of native game birds that are raised and then harvested for the meat or put out for paying hunters by a private organization or individual. Do you? If so, yes I'd be against that as well. Can you imagine a ruffed grouse farm? :o
Thankfully, all of those things are illegal in THIS state.
Post by: snowpack on December 30, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
the pheasant release program for the WDFW. Other places quail/chukar are popular.QuoteSo then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds?
Yes I do. I hate seeing elk and whitetail deer being raised like livestock. Bison are different since they are not considered to be wildlife- they ARE livestock.
I don't know of native game birds that are raised and then harvested for the meat or put out for paying hunters by a private organization or individual. Do you? If so, yes I'd be against that as well. Can you imagine a ruffed grouse farm? :o
Thankfully, all of those things are illegal in THIS state.
Post by: seth30 on December 30, 2013, 12:23:35 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on December 30, 2013, 12:28:17 PM
the pheasant release program for the WDFW. Other places quail/chukar are popular.QuoteSo then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds?
Yes I do. I hate seeing elk and whitetail deer being raised like livestock. Bison are different since they are not considered to be wildlife- they ARE livestock.
I don't know of native game birds that are raised and then harvested for the meat or put out for paying hunters by a private organization or individual. Do you? If so, yes I'd be against that as well. Can you imagine a ruffed grouse farm? :o
Thankfully, all of those things are illegal in THIS state.
All pheasants are native to Asia. Chukars too. Not sure what quail they use, but according to state law I don't believe they can be "native".
Post by: Taco280AI on December 30, 2013, 12:37:15 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on December 30, 2013, 12:46:48 PM
I think high fence hunts have their place. They're not for me, but then again, I live in WA where I can drive about an hour to great hunting. I get time off to hunt. I'm not disabled yet. Having said that, I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of like taking the kids to a trout pond our out salmon fishing (most of them are pen-raised now, right?). I don't think that raised critters should be qualified for the record books but that's only my opinion.A slight Exageration.... :chuckle:
I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. :dunno:
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 01:02:27 PM
Post by: REHJWA on December 30, 2013, 01:07:51 PM
A trophy is in the eye of the hunter not this or any other forum. I am proud of every hunt successful or not because I know what I put into it.
Post by: snowpack on December 30, 2013, 01:12:24 PM
So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?As long as they are released on private land, yes.
Post by: REHJWA on December 30, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
A pen raised and released trout, pheasant, buck or bull is no where near the "trophy" of a native animal. If the animal has endured the trials of life to reach maturity then it deserves a place of honor, a stocked animal deserves a place in the freezer. :twocents:So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?As long as they are released on private land, yes.
Post by: Kazekurt on December 30, 2013, 01:29:37 PM
Almost every diehard hunter dreams of breaking a world record but for most of us that's NOT why we hunt. We hunt because we love the outdoors, the commrodery, the wildlife, and simply escaping the "real world" every now and then. It saddens me that there are people out there willing to lie and cheat their way to a record. Personally, if I can't look my friends in the eye and speak honestly about how my trophies were taken then I'd rather not have that trophy.
I don't have a problem with game farms or canned hunts as they have their place for some; but its laughable to see a hunter take an animal in this manner only to puff out there chest and lie or pretend its something its not. I don't think the taking of the spider bull ( elk non typical WR) was that great of an accomplishment but at least MR. Austed was completely honest in describing how he was able to take that magnificent animal. He used his resources to acquire the tag, hired an outfitter to follow it around, and got his WR but at least he got it legally and was open and honest about the entire process. Again, not my cup of tea but I respect his honesty and marvel that he'd spend 250k for an experience like that. As long as their is money to be made we will continue to hear stories of game farm animals that are "WR's taken in wilderness areas" or hard to reach places every year and most will eventually be debunked as someone else has almost always seen these animals and knows the real story. Often it's not even the hunter that starts the rumor and in some cases he is the one that debunks it.
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 01:30:43 PM
So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?As long as they are released on private land, yes.
Explain why you believe this please....
Post by: Kazekurt on December 30, 2013, 01:32:27 PM
To me public land, DIY hunts are the best and hold the most weight for a trophy, even if they don't score the highest :tup:I've always believed this and if everyone was honest it would be far and away the most respected record!
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 01:33:16 PM
To me public land, DIY hunts are the best and hold the most weight for a trophy, even if they don't score the highest :tup:I've always believed this and if everyone was honest it would be far and away the most respected record!
I agree with that.
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 01:33:51 PM
I think we are missing the greater issue here. I have zero problem with lawful business conducted on private land. Its a slippery slope to start regulating private land ownership and commerce just because we don't approve of the practices or business conducted there. Some people don't like liqueur stores, strip clubs, certain religions, or gasp...even hunting but there is a market and demand for all of those things and clearly there is also a market for "canned hunts" or these places would t be in business. Not my cup of tea, but I'm not going to tell others who to spend or make money. The real issue is the fame and commercialization of trophies. People now recognize that talking a monster can not only bring notoriety but also bring lots of oppertunities for wealth! ( appearance fees, sponsorships, promoting products, reproductions, etc) and in cases were a person has money already it can bring fame and validation to stoke ones ego.
Almost every diehard hunter dreams of breaking a world record but for most of us that's NOT why we hunt. We hunt because we love the outdoors, the commrodery, the wildlife, and simply escaping the "real world" every now and then. It saddens me that there are people out there willing to lie and cheat their way to a record. Personally, if I can't look my friends in the eye and speak honestly about how my trophies were taken then I'd rather not have that trophy.
I don't have a problem with game farms or canned hunts as they have their place for some; but its laughable to see a hunter take an animal in this manner only to puff out there chest and lie or pretend its something its not. I don't think the taking of the spider bull ( elk non typical WR) was that great of an accomplishment but at least MR. Austed was completely honest in describing how he was able to take that magnificent animal. He used his resources to acquire the tag, hired an outfitter to follow it around, and got his WR but at least he got it legally and was open and honest about the entire process. Again, not my cup of tea but I respect his honesty and marvel that he'd spend 250k for an experience like that. As long as their is money to be made we will continue to hear stories of game farm animals that are "WR's taken in wilderness areas" or hard to reach places every year and most will eventually be debunked as someone else has almost always seen these animals and knows the real story. Often it's not even the hunter that starts the rumor and in some cases he is the one that debunks it.
VERY well said!!! :yeah:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 01:37:51 PM
I think high fence hunts have their place. They're not for me, but then again, I live in WA where I can drive about an hour to great hunting. I get time off to hunt. I'm not disabled yet. Having said that, I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of like taking the kids to a trout pond our out salmon fishing (most of them are pen-raised now, right?). I don't think that raised critters should be qualified for the record books but that's only my opinion.A slight Exageration.... :chuckle:
I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. :dunno:
Lol :chuckle: You know, before wolves and greenies.
Post by: Kazekurt on December 30, 2013, 01:40:38 PM
So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?I'm definitely not okay with it, but it is rarely pulled of successfully and is illegal. In almost every case this has happened the credibility of the animal being Fair chase was always debunked as there is always someone who knows the real story . Furthermore, the person would have to lie to many people and lie when he signs the Boone and Crockett Fair chase scoresheet and then if it's proven not to be Fair chase they are often banned for life.
Post by: snowpack on December 30, 2013, 01:54:06 PM
What the landowner does on their own land is their business as long as it isn't negatively impacting neighbors. So if they want to release animals on their land and kill them, I'm fine with it. As long as those animals don't cause problems if they get out...then the landowner that released them should be held responsible. (like feral hogs) Raise them to 600" or 700" on private land, as long as it isn't requiring radioactive or toxic chemicals that can leak on to the neighbors property. I think BC/PY already have a list of guidelines for entries, so if they can meet the requirements they can be entered. Should public animals that are from areas using genetic selection be allowed in those books? Lots of public land now that falls under various antler point restrictions. Or animals in areas that have food plots that have been chosen to build bigger animals?So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?As long as they are released on private land, yes.
Explain why you believe this please....
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 01:54:31 PM
So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?
Not me. There's a distinction between farmed critters and wild critters. I haven't seen anyone post that they think a 300" farmed freak whitetail should be in B&C. I personally think that private business with private land should be able to do what they want within the law, however. Canned hunts and game farms are big business and employ lots of people.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 01:56:23 PM
Sometimes the narrow minds of people on this forum and the level of hypocrisy amazes me. So many people only are concerned about themselves and their own opinions and likes, and to heck with everyone else in the world. So many people don't see the whole picture and form their opinions around their lifestyle and to heck with other lifestyles.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?
I have hunted on game ranches or estates as they are often called for released pheasant, quail, chucker, elk, bison, red stag, rusa, chital, fallow, whitetail, sika, hogs, and probably some other species that don't come to mind. I have fished for trout and salmon and didn't care if I caught native or hatchery, it was all fun and I am especially glad that we have hatcheries releasing fish so there are enough for us all to catch something and have liberal seasons and bag limits. I have even fished private stocked ponds and had an absolute blast. Every spring I chase turkeys for 6 weeks which are non-native introduced species in this state. Even sheep have been released around this state.
I will bet that 90% of the hypocrites in this topic fish or hunt for non-native species that have been raised and released in WA! :twocents:
Now, I have no solid info to know if Lemon has tried to put a ranch raised deer in the wild records and hope that it's all a misunderstanding. I do agree that ranch raised elk/deer should not compete in the books with wild animals. SCI has the perfect system where they keep separate records for wild or estate animals. I find it very likely that Lemon listed the buck as an estate buck if it is an estate buck, and somehow someone who doesn't know any different got the story crossed up and created a drama. Without more solid info, who knows. :dunno:
Post by: Kazekurt on December 30, 2013, 01:58:57 PM
If you have to lie, exaggerate, or misrepresent the facts to make people think you or your accomplishments are great..., your not and they're not. If they were worthy of praise you would have no problem being truthful and if you're willing to break this rule you're admitting your accomplishment requires embellishment to be noteworthy.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 02:02:27 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 02:13:32 PM
Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?
I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.
There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 02:24:44 PM
Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?
I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.
There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.
They are native species.
If the domestic Idaho elk get loose, can they interbreed with the wild elk on public land? If so, then that's an issue.
So require reliable fencing. :dunno:
Are you concerned about the hatchery fish being released? :dunno:
Post by: idahohuntr on December 30, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
I'm not judging high fence hunts as right or wrong, but there is absolutely a difference...it's called fair chase.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 02:34:43 PM
Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?
I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.
There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.
They are native species.
If the domestic Idaho elk get loose, can they interbreed with the wild elk on public land? If so, then that's an issue.
So require reliable fencing. :dunno:
Are you concerned about the hatchery fish being released? :dunno:
oops, sorry I accidentally modified your post, sorry about that, my answer is on your post
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 02:39:20 PM
I'm not judging high fence hunts as right or wrong, but there is absolutely a difference...it's called fair chase.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?
I totally agree that wild animals are usually tougher to hunt. But that does not always hold true, as with everything there are exceptions. However, estate animals should never compete in the books with wild animals. That's why I say SCI has the perfect system.
Post by: ELKBURGER on December 30, 2013, 02:42:54 PM
I've only been hunting since 92'. Greenies have been here alot longer than that.I think high fence hunts have their place. They're not for me, but then again, I live in WA where I can drive about an hour to great hunting. I get time off to hunt. I'm not disabled yet. Having said that, I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of like taking the kids to a trout pond our out salmon fishing (most of them are pen-raised now, right?). I don't think that raised critters should be qualified for the record books but that's only my opinion.A slight Exageration.... :chuckle:
I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. :dunno:
Lol :chuckle: You know, before wolves and greenies.
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 02:43:51 PM
However, estate animals should never compete in the books with wild animals.
Agreed! :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 02:46:31 PM
I'm not judging high fence hunts as right or wrong, but there is absolutely a difference...it's called fair chase.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?
There's a reason I apply for Utah limited-entry draws. At the same time, I am glad there are game ranch opportunities available for those that want them. :) :twocents:
However, estate animals should never compete in the books with wild animals.
Agreed! :tup:
Has anyone figured out if Lemon is claiming it's a world record estate buck or if he is claiming it's a record wild mule buck? This really could be that someone misinterpreted the entire situation. :dunno:
Post by: Bullkllr on December 30, 2013, 02:49:58 PM
Idaho Department of Fish & Game PO Box 25 600 S. Walnut Street Boise, Idaho 83707 www.fishandgame.idaho.gov (http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov)
ISSUE STATEMENT Domestic Elk Farming January 12, 2006
Background: Idaho is home to approximately 125,000 wild elk that provide hunting opportunity for approximately 100,000 resident and nonresident hunters. In 2005, elk hunters spent approximately $67 million dollars on fuel, motels, restaurants, tags/licenses, guides, etc. These direct expenditures resulted in an estimated economic impact of over $170 million to Idaho. Many of Idaho�s rural family businesses are dependent on wildlife-based recreational dollars.
The number of domestic elk in Idaho has increased substantially since 1994 when the Idaho legislature deemed the possession of domestic cervidae (elk, fallow deer, and reindeer) as an agricultural pursuit to be administered by the Idaho State Department of Agriculture. Currently, there are 78 elk farms in Idaho possessing 5,843 elk, not including calves. Historically, domestic elk were raised primarily for velvet antlers, meat, and breeding stock. Recently, operations offering shooting opportunity for domestic bull elk have increased. The Idaho State Department of Agriculture (ISDA) believes 14 elk farms currently offer shooting opportunity.
Many of the new shooting operations are located in areas important to wild elk. The increase in domestic elk farms near or in wild elk habitat, particularly shooting operations, has increased the risk of contact between domestic and wild elk. Domestic elk can be an attractant for wild elk, particularly during mating season. Single fences do not prevent contact between domestic and wild elk. Nose-to-nose contact through fences and escape of domestic elk are common occurrences where domestic elk farms are within wild elk range. Additionally, domestic elk farms have resulted in confinement of wild deer, elk, and moose.
Issues: Disease - Diseases of primary concern to both the Department of Fish and Game (IDFG) and ISDA are the �regulatory diseases� including chronic wasting disease (CWD), brucellosis, and bovine tuberculosis (TB). Additionally, IDFG is concerned about diseases and parasites not endemic to Idaho wild elk including meningeal worm, paratuberculosis, giant liver fluke, and others (known and unknown). Idaho State Department of Agriculture only maintains a monitoring and control program for the regulatory diseases. Domestic elk from areas endemic for meningeal worm are prohibited from being directly imported into Idaho by ISDA rules. However, the rules do not prevent the importation of any elk originating from areas endemic for meningeal worm.
Giant liver flukes were discovered a couple of years ago as a mortality cause in a domestic elk operation in eastern Idaho. In September 2006, an unmarked yearling bull elk, harvested while standing with escaped domestic elk, was found to have giant liver flukes. It is unknown whether this unmarked elk was wild or domestic. There is no evidence to indicate these two cases of giant liver flukes are related. Additionally, wild elk in portions of eastern Idaho carry brucellosis.
The risk of disease or parasite transmission can be minimized if contact between domestic and wild elk doesn�t occur. Additionally, comprehensive and enforceable regulatory mechanisms must exist to prevent importation of diseases and parasites not endemic to Idaho. Because disease control in wild, free-ranging populations is problematic, disease prevention is preferable.
Genetic Interchange - The long-term consequences of genetic interchange between domestic and wild elk are unknown. However, experiences with interbreeding of other domestic and wild animals indicate survival and reproduction of offspring can be compromised.
Current state law prohibits the importation and possession of Eurasian red deer or red deer hybrids. However, the recent discovery of an elk with red deer genetic influence suggests the current screening processes and regulatory procedures are inadequate to prevent introduction of red deer genes into wild elk. As with diseases, comprehensive and enforceable regulatory mechanisms that prevent contact between wild and domestic elk are necessary to prevent genetic interchange between wild and domestic elk.
Confinement of Wild Cervids � Idaho State Department of Agriculture rules prohibit wild cervids from being confined within domestic elk farms. However, ISDA defers management of wild cervid confinement to IDFG. Routinely, IDFG works with ISDA and domestic elk farmers to remove wild cervids from inside enclosures. Attempts to haze wild cervids from inside domestic elk enclosures have had limited success, especially in large enclosures with rugged terrain and thick cover.
Inadequate fence design or maintenance, drifting snow, and fence damage caused by falling trees commonly create opportunities for wild cervids to enter fenced facilities. If contact occurs between wild and domestic cervids, and disease or genetic interchange is a concern, IDFG lethally removes the wild cervids. Lethal removal has been conducted by domestic elk farmers (with IDFG approval), agency personnel, and in very limited circumstances, sportsmen.
Loss of wild cervids that become confined, or are lethally removed, represent lost hunting and viewing opportunities for Idaho hunters and wildlife enthusiasts.
Impacts on Native Cervids - Many domestic elk farms are located in agricultural areas and pose minimal threat to wild cervids. However, the increase in domestic elk shooting operations has increased the number of elk farms located in wild cervid habitats. Concerns exist over high fences excluding wild cervids from important seasonal habitats (i.e. winter range) and altering important movement corridors. Use of Sportsman�s Funds � The Idaho Department of Fish & Game is almost entirely funded by license funds and federal funding derived from excise taxes on sporting goods. IDFG receives no general state fund revenues. Idaho Department of Fish & Game costs associated with responding to wild cervids inside domestic elk farms or escapes of domestic elk are paid with existing revenue sources. Since July 2003, IDFG has documented a minimum of $75,000 spent on attempting to remove wild cervids from inside domestic elk farms and assisting with efforts to capture escaped domestic elk.
Public Support for Hunting � In Idaho, and throughout America, wildlife is owned by the public. Uses of wildlife, including hunting, are dependent on public support. Numerous surveys have indicated that public support for hunting is largely contingent on principles of fair chase. Several sporting organizations have adopted definitions of fair chase, some of them different. However, a common theme among the definitions is that an animal has a reasonable chance of eluding a hunter.
Idaho Fish and Game Commission Statement of Policy Regarding Domestic Elk January 11, 2007
Whereas, the Idaho Fish and Game Commission (�Commission�) is responsible by law to preserve, protect, perpetuate and manage wildlife in the state of Idaho.
Whereas, the Commission has a strong desire and responsibility to protect wild elk from diseases and genetic impurities.
Whereas, the Commission believes that domestic elk herds pose real and substantial risks to Idaho�s wild elk populations.
Now, therefore, the Commission adopts the following policy statements with regards to domestic elk operations:
1. The Commission encourages the state of Idaho to enact legislation and establish and fund appropriate policies to protect wild cervids from disease and genetic risks posed by domestic elk.
2. The Commission does not recognize the shooting of domestic elk for recreational purposes within confined facilities as �hunting.�
3. The Commission advocates the principles of fair chase and ethics in the harvest of wild game.
4. The Commission is opposed to spending sportsmen�s dollars on the management or control of domestic elk.
Adopted: January 11, 2007 Idaho Fish and Game Commissioners
/S/ /S/ Cameron Wheeler, Chairman Wayne Wright, Vice Chair Upper Snake Region 6 Magic Valley Region 4
/S/ /S/ Tony McDermott Alex Irby Panhandle Region 1 Clearwater Region 2
/S/ /S/ Bob Barowsky Randall C. Budge Southwest Region 3 Southeast Region 5
/S/ Gary Power Salmon Region 7
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 02:50:51 PM
Has anyone figured out if Lemon is claiming it's a world record estate buck or if he is claiming it's a record wild mule buck? This really could be that someone misinterpreted the entire situation. :dunno:
I don't see where he is actually claiming either.
He is getting a lot of flack on his FB though.
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 02:54:55 PM
I wouldn't worry about a record being broken.
Post by: snowpack on December 30, 2013, 03:00:13 PM
Apparently it scored 226"one of the articles I read said it beat the old world record by over 5 inches. 226 3/8 vs 221 2/8
I wouldn't worry about a record being broken.
Post by: scout/sniper on December 30, 2013, 03:01:39 PM
:yike: Time to study the record books.Apparently it scored 226"one of the articles I read said it beat the old world record by over 5 inches. 226 3/8 vs 221 2/8
I wouldn't worry about a record being broken.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 03:03:55 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
They don't seem to concerned about the diseases the wolves are bringing with them. :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 03:07:25 PM
Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
Same is true of bison herds. Wild herds are known to carry disease while the domestic herds are relatively disease free.
Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
They don't seem to concerned about the diseases the wolves are bringing with them. :dunno:
You are precisely correct, in fact the F&G has done everything they can to hide the diseases in wolves. :twocents:
Post by: Dave of TDG-Farms on December 30, 2013, 03:09:34 PM
Quote
So then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
The game farms you speak of are all government inspected, cataloged and policed. This is not so the case with "farm" wildlife raised for hunting. Though I would guess there maybe a few states with more restrictions then others. You wanna defend em fine. Personally I find it disgusting and would never hunt like that. But thats me. Great for disabled people. Though, rarely do you see these farms used for anything other then huge trophy bucks/bulls. I do believe these animals should be registered at birth and tattooed or chipped. This would be a good way (not a great way) to keep them separate from wild stock in terms of trophy/records. On that topic, I think any farm raised animal should not be allowed to make it into a record book. There is no reason to Celebrate an animal that has been genetically raised to surpass its wildlife counterparts.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
I hunt mainly wild animals and plan to keep it that way, but I get a little excited when I see people talking smack about something they are not informed about. :twocents:
Post by: snowpack on December 30, 2013, 03:20:05 PM
They haven't been too concerned with hoof rot or hair loss and containing them.Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
They don't seem to concerned about the diseases the wolves are bringing with them. :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
They haven't been too concerned with hoof rot or hair loss and containing them.Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
They don't seem to concerned about the diseases the wolves are bringing with them. :dunno:
I thought the exact same thing. If that was an elk rancher in Idaho with sick elk he would be called the anti-Christ. Sort of a double standard if you ask me. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 03:41:27 PM
They haven't been too concerned with hoof rot or hair loss and containing them.Of course I wouldn't want disease spreading form domestic animals to wild. But in spite of the Idaho statement, I am pretty sure there is more disease in the wild herds than in the domestic. Every ranch elk has to be tested, almost no wild elk are being tested. Many game ranch operators are concerned about disease from wild animals. :dunno:
They don't seem to concerned about the diseases the wolves are bringing with them. :dunno:
I thought the exact same thing. If that was an elk rancher in Idaho with sick elk he would be called the anti-Christ. Sort of a double standard if you ask me. :twocents:
It's not a double standard. Wild animals cannot be tested, treated, quarantined, or anything else like domestic animals can. That's because they are WILD!
Do we want to control nature that much, so that wild animals are 100% disease free?
Personally, I feel that just the fact that domesticated elk exist, takes away from the value of wild elk. For me elk would be even more of a trophy if the possibility of purchasing a "trophy" bull was not an option. Or if the only way to acquire elk meat was by hunting, instead of simply ordering it online to be shipped to your house.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 03:52:28 PM
Quote
Do we want to control nature that much, so that wild animals are 100% disease free?
That's a good question that requires considerable thought. Disease certainly drives evolution so perhaps we don't want all wild animals to be vaccinated and disease free, however, hoof rot probably should be a major consideration before it spreads further. :dunno:
I think there is a place for private herds, in fact some species would be extinct if it wasn't for private herds. I guess that we just have to find ground in the middle that works out for the most people and for the animals. I'm sorry it bothers you that someone in Idaho owns an elk herd, as long as they keep them contained and disease free it doesn't bother me in the least. In fact, just like fish hatcheries, I'm glad we have them. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 04:11:55 PM
Another thing about elk farms, in my opinion, is that they give all hunters a "black eye." People who live in the city know nothing about hunting, and already think hunters hunt only because they enjoy KILLING things. Then they hear about these canned hunting operations, and their ideas about hunting are reinforced.
As I said before, luckily Washington state does not allow game farming. It's illegal in other states as well- Wyoming for one.
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 04:17:54 PM
Post by: JLS on December 30, 2013, 04:22:11 PM
As for fish hatcheries- I do think we very well may have been better off if we hadn't come to rely on them so much for keeping our rivers and oceans full of fish. Without hatcheries, people would have been forced into taking care of the most important thing of all- quality habitat. Then we could have plenty of wild fish and no need for hatcheries. But, it's too late now, the damage has been done, and we're stuck with hatcheries, for the most part.
Couldn't agree more with this one. We ignored the canary in the coal mine in order to keep fisherman happy.
Post by: Kazekurt on December 30, 2013, 04:49:07 PM
Post by: _TONY_ on December 30, 2013, 05:22:24 PM
Game farms are privately owned and the stocks are contained within the facility. Where as hatcheries are tax payer funded and stocks are released into wild rivers by the millions, and thus out competing gravel born wild smolts for available food. If some of the few returning fish do not make it into the collection, they will ultimately make it to the gravel and mix with wild stock creating an inferior spawn... Btw for each fish that returns costs the tax payers roughly 1000 or more...
Still think hatcheries are good?
I have no issues with game farms, but that's as long as the herd stays whithin the facility and has no way of interbreeding with wild stocks.
I wonder if anyone's ever had a mount done that included the plastic ear tag :tung:
Tony
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 30, 2013, 06:12:15 PM
Its sad deer like this one in question are even in question! I hope Lemon comes forward and explains this situation. If he is guilty of what allot of people think....his reputation is tarnished forever.
Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 30, 2013, 06:45:52 PM
Rule #1 of Kazekurt 's standard of trophies and trophy hunts.I like the way you think
If you have to lie, exaggerate, or misrepresent the facts to make people think you or your accomplishments are great..., your not and they're not. If they were worthy of praise you would have no problem being truthful and if you're willing to break this rule you're admitting your accomplishment requires embellishment to be noteworthy.
Post by: blacktailer on December 30, 2013, 07:30:38 PM
:yike: Time to study the record books.Apparently it scored 226"one of the articles I read said it beat the old world record by over 5 inches. 226 3/8 vs 221 2/8
I wouldn't worry about a record being broken.
The Burris buck netted 226 1/2. Someone mentioned earlier that record books are meant to honor the animal and not the hunter. I mostly agree with this, and that is why I have always liked the B & C scoring system. Hunted trophies need to be taken under fair chase rules. Deadheads are also allowed but are noted as such. There is no place for canned or high fence trophies in the B & C. The SCI has a place for these trophies and are noted as such in their record keeping.
High fences aren't for me, but I don't have any problem with them. To each their own as long as they are being regulated and are not cross contaminating our wild herds. Still haven't head an answer on Bearpaws question of whether or not the Lemon's claimed this buck to be a wild, free ranging deer???
Post by: Damnimissed on December 30, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
To me public land, DIY hunts are the best and hold the most weight for a trophy, even if they don't score the highest :tup::yeah:
Seriously, any public land Rosie bull or 3pt blacktail is trophy to me. The trophy is in the eye of the beholder.
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
Quote
Btw for each fish that returns costs the tax payers roughly 1000 or more...
I'm wondering where you got this number?
To each their own, as far as hunting high fenced farms or fair chase. What I have an issue with is a growing trend of world records getting killed that were obviously raised on a game farm, only to be released to get killed "fair chase" so they could be the new "world record". Its an ego trip to the "hunter" and the guides. Its all about ego and money.
Its sad deer like this one in question are even in question! I hope Lemon comes forward and explains this situation. If he is guilty of what allot of people think....his reputation is tarnished forever.
I still have to play devil's advocate, has anyone come up with any solid evidence about these rumors and speculation or is that all they are? What record animals are documented to have been raised domestically and then released in the wild? Just looking for some solid evidence other than rumors!
Game farms and fish hatcheries are two completely different things and I don't think they should be compared to each other...
Seem like the same principal to me. :dunno:
As for fish hatcheries- I do think we very well may have been better off if we hadn't come to rely on them so much for keeping our rivers and oceans full of fish. Without hatcheries, people would have been forced into taking care of the most important thing of all- quality habitat. Then we could have plenty of wild fish and no need for hatcheries. But, it's too late now, the damage has been done, and we're stuck with hatcheries, for the most part.
I'm not so sure habitat is the issue, could it be that humans (all humans) and predators are simply taking too many fish?
What about trout hatcheries that are raising fish for lowland lakes?
What about pheasants, turkey's and our sheep herds that were transplanted?
What about the wolves that were brought in form Canada and released?
What about the Mexican wolves that were raised domestically and released?
Now we even have sturgeon hatcheries that are replenishing sturgeon!
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
Quote
What about trout hatcheries that are raising fish for lowland lakes?
I will only comment on this. The way I see it, actually I can't believe they have done what they've done without environmental organizations complaining, and filing lawsuits.
I can't imagine that planting non-native trout in many lowland lakes has not caused the extinction of several native species. I know the native cutthroat trout in some of the lakes in this area are gone, and I assume it's due to the state planting rainbow and brown trout.
When man tries to "help" nature it's not always such a good thing. IMO
Post by: Todd_ID on December 30, 2013, 08:27:13 PM
http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238 (http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238)
Post by: Bullkllr on December 30, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
Interesting read here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-petersen/canned-hunting_b_1507706.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-petersen/canned-hunting_b_1507706.html)
Exerpt from noted biologist Valerius Geist: "Game farming is utterly incompatible with the maintenance of free-roaming wildlife on this continent, standing in direct opposition to all four basic tenets of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and democratic hunting"
One thing is clear to me; it's a rather complicated issue...
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 08:48:06 PM
Here's some food for thought on this buck: notice the date of the article and the text saying SCI.
http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238 (http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238)
I don' know him at all, but I'm wondering if someone isn't just spreading bad rumors to discredit Lemon because they don't like him? Nobody has shown any evidence to substantiate these rumors are at all true? :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on December 30, 2013, 08:50:22 PM
QuoteWhat about trout hatcheries that are raising fish for lowland lakes?
I will only comment on this. The way I see it, actually I can't believe they have done what they've done without environmental organizations complaining, and filing lawsuits.
I can't imagine that planting non-native trout in many lowland lakes has not caused the extinction of several native species. I know the native cutthroat trout in some of the lakes in this area are gone, and I assume it's due to the state planting rainbow and brown trout.
When man tries to "help" nature it's not always such a good thing. IMO
I can agree with part of that, we all know there have been mistakes by introducing new species in streams and lakes, but I'm not sure you can blame planting otherwise sterile lowland lakes as the cause for impacts in these other waters. The way I understand it, many of the lowland lakes had no trout or other fish, these lakes would freeze out, aerators and hatcheries have changed that and now these lakes provide a great deal of recreation that would otherwise be nonexistent.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 31, 2013, 05:45:38 AM
QuoteSo then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds? Game meat is a huge business in the US and you'd be putting lots of private entrepreneurs out of it. How about the quail egg market - huge. If not, what's the difference between a game ranch that raises meat for the commercial market and one which raises it for hunting, which would be a commercial market?
Just because you don't agree with raising animals which are normally wildlife doesn't mean you get to say it's illegal for everyone. That's like the wave of the king's hand there, BC.
The game farms you speak of are all government inspected, cataloged and policed. This is not so the case with "farm" wildlife raised for hunting. Though I would guess there maybe a few states with more restrictions then others. You wanna defend em fine. Personally I find it disgusting and would never hunt like that. But thats me. Great for disabled people. Though, rarely do you see these farms used for anything other then huge trophy bucks/bulls. I do believe these animals should be registered at birth and tattooed or chipped. This would be a good way (not a great way) to keep them separate from wild stock in terms of trophy/records. On that topic, I think any farm raised animal should not be allowed to make it into a record book. There is no reason to Celebrate an animal that has been genetically raised to surpass its wildlife counterparts.
I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you. But just because we don't want to hunt there doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist. It's a very liberal mindset. "I don't do it so neither should you."
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 31, 2013, 09:12:55 AM
just because we don't want to hunt there doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist. It's a very liberal mindset. "I don't do it so neither should you."
Ding, ding, ding!
8) nailed it
Post by: Curly on December 31, 2013, 10:00:27 AM
Anyway, I think the hatchery and game farm deer/elk analogy is a valid one.
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2013, 01:31:21 PM
I don't know where these lowland lakes are that had no fish in them prior to hatchery raised fish being planted? :dunno: Those kind of lakes didn't exist in this area.......
Anyway, I think the hatchery and game farm deer/elk analogy is a valid one.
More of an eastside thing, before aerators small lakes would freeze over and the fish would die in the winter.
Post by: motg9_6 on December 31, 2013, 01:39:12 PM
So your against the state planting pheasants for huntingQuoteSo then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds?
Yes I do. I hate seeing elk and whitetail deer being raised like livestock. Bison are different since they are not considered to be wildlife- they ARE livestock.
I don't know of native game birds that are raised and then harvested for the meat or put out for paying hunters by a private organization or individual. Do you? If so, yes I'd be against that as well. Can you imagine a ruffed grouse farm? :o
?
Thankfully, all of those things are illegal in THIS state.
Post by: billythekidrock on December 31, 2013, 01:48:14 PM
So your against the state planting pheasants for huntingQuoteSo then, you think that ranches/game farms that raise elk for meat should be abolished then? Bison? What about game birds?
Yes I do. I hate seeing elk and whitetail deer being raised like livestock. Bison are different since they are not considered to be wildlife- they ARE livestock.
I don't know of native game birds that are raised and then harvested for the meat or put out for paying hunters by a private organization or individual. Do you? If so, yes I'd be against that as well. Can you imagine a ruffed grouse farm? :o
?
Thankfully, all of those things are illegal in THIS state.
As stated before, pheasants are not native. He opinion is on native species.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 31, 2013, 02:30:58 PM
So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?As long as they are released on private land, yes.
Absolutely not okay with it. Pathetic in it's worst form. :twocents:
Post by: baldopepper on December 31, 2013, 02:42:59 PM
Post by: Blue Mountain Adventures on December 31, 2013, 03:04:47 PM
Here's some food for thought on this buck: notice the date of the article and the text saying SCI.
http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238 (http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=2238)
I don' know him at all, but I'm wondering if someone isn't just spreading bad rumors to discredit Lemon because they don't like him? Nobody has shown any evidence to substantiate these rumors are at all true? :dunno:
That's a possibility. Allot of guys get jealous of a guys success guiding or outfitting and start rumors. I have had rumors get back to me that were started, and I just have to laugh. I am not for or against Lemon's. However, what I have seen and heard doesn't look good. I was hoping someone on here could dismiss this with proof of confirm with proof. So far, its just a lot of mud being thrown around.