Another pen raised trophy kill trying to get attention as new world record...

[Blue Mountain Adventures]

I think we are missing the greater issue here.  I have zero problem with lawful business conducted on private land.  Its a slippery slope to start regulating private  land ownership and commerce just because we don't approve of the practices or business conducted there.  Some people don't like liqueur stores, strip clubs, certain religions, or gasp...even hunting but there is a market and demand for all of those things and clearly there is also a market for "canned hunts" or these places would t be in business.  Not my cup of tea, but I'm not going to tell others who to spend or make money.  The real issue is the fame and commercialization of trophies.  People  now recognize that talking a monster can not only bring notoriety but also bring lots of  oppertunities for wealth! ( appearance fees, sponsorships, promoting products, reproductions, etc) and in cases were a person has money already it can bring fame and validation to stoke ones ego. 
  Almost every diehard hunter dreams of breaking a world record but for most of us that's NOT why we hunt.  We hunt because we love the  outdoors, the commrodery, the wildlife, and simply escaping the "real world" every now and then.  It saddens me that there are people out there willing to lie and cheat their way to a record.  Personally, if I can't look my friends in the eye and speak honestly about how my trophies were taken then I'd rather not have that trophy. 
  I don't have a problem with game farms or canned hunts as they have their place for some; but its laughable to see a hunter take an animal in this manner only to puff out there chest and lie or pretend its something its not.  I don't think the taking of the spider bull ( elk non typical WR) was that great of an accomplishment but at least MR. Austed was completely honest  in describing how he was able to take that magnificent animal.  He  used his resources to acquire the tag, hired an outfitter to follow it around, and got his WR but at least he got it legally and was open and honest about the entire process.  Again, not my cup of tea but I respect his honesty and marvel that he'd spend 250k for an experience like that.  As long as their is money to be made we will continue to hear stories of game farm animals that are "WR's taken in wilderness areas" or hard to reach places every year and most will eventually be debunked as someone else has almost always seen these animals and knows the real story.  Often it's not even the hunter that starts the rumor and in some cases he is the one that debunks it.

VERY well said!!! 

[pianoman9701]

I think high fence hunts have their place. They're not for me, but then again, I live in WA where I can drive about an hour to great hunting. I get time off to hunt. I'm not disabled yet. Having said that, I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of like taking the kids to a trout pond our out salmon fishing (most of them are pen-raised now, right?). I don't think that raised critters should be qualified for the record books but that's only my opinion.

I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. 

A slight Exageration....

Lol  You know, before wolves and greenies.

[Kazekurt]

So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?

I'm definitely not okay with it, but it  is rarely pulled of successfully and is illegal.  In almost every case this has happened the credibility of the animal being Fair chase was always debunked as there is  always someone who knows the real story .  Furthermore, the person would have to lie to many people and lie when he signs the Boone and Crockett Fair chase scoresheet  and then if it's proven not to be Fair chase they are often banned for life.

[snowpack]

So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?

As long as they are released on private land, yes.

Explain why you believe this please....

What the landowner does on their own land is their business as long as it isn't negatively impacting neighbors.  So if they want to release animals on their land and kill them, I'm fine with it.  As long as those animals don't cause problems if they get out...then the landowner that released them should be held responsible.  (like feral hogs)  Raise them to 600" or 700" on private land, as long as it isn't requiring radioactive or toxic chemicals that can leak on to the neighbors property.  I think BC/PY already have a list of guidelines for entries, so if they can meet the requirements they can be entered.  Should public animals that are from areas using genetic selection be allowed in those books?  Lots of public land now that falls under various antler point restrictions.  Or animals in areas that have food plots that have been chosen to build bigger animals? 

[pianoman9701]

So some of you guys are ok with pen raised 500" bulls and 250" mule deer and released into "fair chase" hunting for a select high paying client and allowed to be entered into the existing B&C P&Y record books?

Not me. There's a distinction between farmed critters and wild critters. I haven't seen anyone post that they think  a 300" farmed freak whitetail should be in B&C. I personally think that private business with private land should be able to do what they want within the law, however. Canned hunts and game farms are big business and employ lots of people.

[bearpaw]

I agree with pianoman on this subject.

Sometimes the narrow minds of people on this forum and the level of hypocrisy amazes me. So many people only are concerned about themselves and their own opinions and likes, and to heck with everyone else in the world. So many people don't see the whole picture and form their opinions around their lifestyle and to heck with other lifestyles.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?

I have hunted on game ranches or estates as they are often called for released pheasant, quail, chucker, elk, bison, red stag, rusa, chital, fallow, whitetail, sika, hogs, and probably some other species that don't come to mind. I have fished for trout and salmon and didn't care if I caught native or hatchery, it was all fun and I am especially glad that we have hatcheries releasing fish so there are enough for us all to catch something and have liberal seasons and bag limits. I have even fished private stocked ponds and had an absolute blast. Every spring I chase turkeys for 6 weeks which are non-native introduced species in this state. Even sheep have been released around this state.

I will bet that 90% of the hypocrites in this topic fish or hunt for non-native species that have been raised and released in WA! 

Now, I have no solid info to know if Lemon has tried to put a ranch raised deer in the wild records and hope that it's all a misunderstanding. I do agree that ranch raised elk/deer should not compete in the books with wild animals. SCI has the perfect system where they keep separate records for wild or estate animals. I find it very likely that Lemon listed the buck as an estate buck if it is an estate buck, and somehow someone who doesn't know any different got the story crossed up and created a drama. Without more solid info, who knows.

[Kazekurt]

Rule #1  of Kazekurt 's standard of trophies and trophy hunts.

If you have to lie, exaggerate, or misrepresent the facts to make people think you or your accomplishments are great..., your not and they're not.  If they were worthy of praise you would have no problem being truthful and if you're willing to break this rule you're admitting  your accomplishment  requires embellishment to be noteworthy.

[bearpaw]

I'm not standing up for or endorsing Lemon in any way, but has anyone read if Lemon is claiming it's a world record estate or wild deer? Just wondering what the facts are?

[bobcat]

Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?

[bearpaw]

Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?

I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.

There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.

[bobcat]

Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?

I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.

There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.

They are native species.

If the domestic Idaho elk get loose, can they interbreed with the wild elk on public land? If so, then that's an issue.

So require reliable fencing. 
Are you concerned about the hatchery fish being released? 

[idahohuntr]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?

I'm not judging high fence hunts as right or wrong, but there is absolutely a difference...it's called fair chase. 

[bearpaw]

Bearpaw, the thing about the private ownership of native big game animals is that it isn't just a private property rights issue. It negatively affects wildlife on public lands. That's why I have a problem with it. Ever heard of Chronic Wasting Disease?

I know more about that issue than you may think and can tell you that private herds are more disease free than wild herds. Every game ranch has to keep records of their animals and health inspections. Wild animals are not being taken care of as well as the domestic.

There really isn't an issue with private ownership of native animals, I don't know of any states that allow someone to privately own native animals. These animals raised on game farms are not native. Even the elk on game farms in for example Idaho were brought in just like pheasants were brought in.

They are native species.

If the domestic Idaho elk get loose, can they interbreed with the wild elk on public land? If so, then that's an issue.

So require reliable fencing. 
Are you concerned about the hatchery fish being released? 

oops, sorry I accidentally modified your post, sorry about that, my answer is on your post

[bearpaw]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with and no difference with fishing for hatchery trout/salmon/steelhead, hunting released pheasant or turkey, or hunting high fenced elk or other animals. How about the fish tanks at the sports shows where we all let the kids fish?

I'm not judging high fence hunts as right or wrong, but there is absolutely a difference...it's called fair chase.

I totally agree that wild animals are usually tougher to hunt. But that does not always hold true, as with everything there are exceptions. However, estate animals should never compete in the books with wild animals. That's why I say SCI has the perfect system.

[ELKBURGER]

I think high fence hunts have their place. They're not for me, but then again, I live in WA where I can drive about an hour to great hunting. I get time off to hunt. I'm not disabled yet. Having said that, I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of like taking the kids to a trout pond our out salmon fishing (most of them are pen-raised now, right?). I don't think that raised critters should be qualified for the record books but that's only my opinion.

I can see where the CEO of a big corporation only gets a weekend here and there to do anything might choose one weekend to do one of these hunts. He gets to satisfy the millions of years old hunting urge inside and be a manly man, if only for a short while. I can see where a disabled person might benefit from this. Maybe someone taking their kid to one if they don't have a lot of time but want to bond in an outdoor atmosphere. To each their own. 

A slight Exageration....

Lol  You know, before wolves and greenies.

I've only been hunting since 92'. Greenies have been here alot longer than that.