Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 12:51:14 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 12:55:40 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2014, 12:56:42 PM
Post by: jrebel on January 05, 2014, 12:58:06 PM
I wish there was a way they could just limit the draw.....so people can't draw multiple tag and only harvest one animal. In my opinion you should only be able to draw one tag per species / per year. This would keep peoples points built up in the other draws :twocents:.
Post by: Hunterman on January 05, 2014, 01:01:54 PM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
THe system we have doesn't have left over tags does it?we don't have left over tags like Idaho does. I'm talking about the special permits that people draw that don't use because they drew more than one of the same species.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 01:10:55 PM
Post by: jackelope on January 05, 2014, 01:11:11 PM
THe system we have doesn't have left over tags does it?we don't have left over tags like Idaho does. I'm talking about the special permits that people draw that don't use because they drew more than one of the same species.
Maybe you should call them 'returned tags' rather than leftovers.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
yes, that would make more sense. What do you think about the idea Josh?THe system we have doesn't have left over tags does it?we don't have left over tags like Idaho does. I'm talking about the special permits that people draw that don't use because they drew more than one of the same species.
Maybe you should call them 'returned tags' rather than leftovers.
Post by: jackmaster on January 05, 2014, 01:19:08 PM
Post by: adamR on January 05, 2014, 03:30:44 PM
I don't think having a "returned tag" drawing is a good idea. Why should someone have to decide which tag they want to use? If a person gets drawn for the quality bull permit in late September and doesn't shoot a bull why shouldn't they be able to hunt the late teanaway tag they got drawn for as well? Why should they have to make a choice on which tag to keep if they were lucky enough to draw both? People will always have something to complain about. It would start with wdfw making you return tags for an invididual species but then people would start complaining that someone drew a quality bull tag and a quality deer tag and "that's just not fair"...
I think you are over estimating how many tags would actually get "returned". Very few tags would get returned, lets say 30 total east side antlerless tags for instance. Now, imagine your odds when everyone with an east side tag who didn't draw anything is applying for 30 cow tags... NOT WORTH YOUR MONEY especially if you could develop points in a "returned" category. It sucks to not get drawn but all a "returned" tag would do is make the wdfw more money it really wouldn't benefit us hunters hardly at all.
Post by: bigtex on January 05, 2014, 03:34:51 PM
I am very supportive of allowing these left over tags go to a first come, first serve sale. If anything it allows somebody to get out and hunt, and brings in more $ to WDFW.
Post by: adamR on January 05, 2014, 03:39:21 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on January 05, 2014, 03:50:10 PM
I would be more than supportive of "leftover tags" if there are less hunters than there are permits. I just don't like the idea of having to return a permit you were drawn for because you were very lucky and drew more than one tag.I just know that tags people would love to have are going to waste. What if they gave you the choice to keep all your tags or give some back for others to apply for? If you had the choice to return permits and get your points back, then you would have nothing to lose. Then if I don't draw my quality tag year after year I could at least have a chance at the bull and cow tags?
Post by: Jingles on January 05, 2014, 04:00:06 PM
Not crazy about the additional fee, but would love to not see the tags go to waste.In addition when you draw a special tag your points drop to zero, once you have drawn a special hunt tag you have had your chance now it is someone else's
I wish there was a way they could just limit the draw.....so people can't draw multiple tag and only harvest one animal. In my opinion you should only be able to draw one tag per species / per year. This would keep peoples points built up in the other draws :twocents:.
Post by: RB on January 05, 2014, 04:25:27 PM
There are a few special permit hunts where there are more permits then hunters, thus a left over, especially on the second deer permits.
I am very supportive of allowing these left over tags go to a first come, first serve sale. If anything it allows somebody to get out and hunt, and brings in more $ to WDFW.
Where on public land is there any tag that has more permits than hunters? The only ones that pop out are the ones highlighted as either private lands or hard access in which case that is the reason there are left over tags because nobody wanted them because they could not get access, or did not know how.
If someone could not hunt a quality tag would it not be better for the WDFW to just issue it to another hunter that had applied for it already? I get the fact it is a waste for someone to throwaway a perfectly good tag, but that is the choice of the person it was issued to. :twocents:
Post by: TMortensen on January 07, 2014, 04:12:05 PM
I have 10pts going into next year for elk, Last year I opted to use my 8 cow pts for a toutle rifle cow tag, and pts option for bull and quality bull, Basically this gave me a garunteed elk. This year I applied for a Margret archery bull tag with 9pts and pt option for qual, and cow. Now I'll wait another 3 yrs to give myself a decent chance at drawing a quality blues tag.
So by doing this I'm giving myself a chance to draw a special permit hunt about every 3 yrs on average. The system we have now is in favor of the hunter, and allows for some great opportunities to fill the freezer.
I would like to see left over tags go to a first come basis if there are any hunts that have tags left after the draw, but in no way should you be allowed to return your tag (natural disaters excluded)
that's just my :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on January 07, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
The problem is that it doesn't give you a guaranteed elk....unless you draw. Since draw odds are in many cases very small, many individuals apply in multiple categories hoping to draw one permit. When they draw more than one, the second usually goes to waste. Sure, you can hunt both permits and some do, but if you drew a Blue Mountains bull permit and a cow permit earlier in the season, who in his right mind would tag the cow?
Post by: trophyhunt on January 07, 2014, 05:34:32 PM
"Last year I opted to use my 8 cow pts for a toutle rifle cow tag, and pts option for bull and quality bull, Basically this gave me a garunteed elk."exactly, that's why I'd like to see guys have the choice to put unwanted tags back in the system for others to draw. The state would only gain from this, more revenue for them and less wasted tags and more opportunities for us.
The problem is that it doesn't give you a guaranteed elk....unless you draw. Since draw odds are in many cases very small, many individuals apply in multiple categories hoping to draw one permit. When they draw more than one, the second usually goes to waste. Sure, you can hunt both permits and some do, but if you drew a Blue Mountains bull permit and a cow permit earlier in the season, who in his right mind would tag the cow?
Post by: Tman on January 07, 2014, 05:54:35 PM
Then the second round winners should know sometime in early August if they drew or not.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 07, 2014, 06:10:56 PM
Some people draw 1 tag and cant use it. I say if you draw a tag, you have 30 days to claim it or it gets redrawn in the same pool of applicants as it was before..no charge..the state would need some incentive to do this, and you know an additional app fee would give them just that. I would think 2 weeks is long enough for a guy to decide, we already have to wait too long for results. My 2 cents.
Then the second round winners should know sometime in early August if they drew or not.
Post by: Tman on January 07, 2014, 06:41:28 PM
Of course 25 of that would cover the person answering the phone saying tough luck to the ones that ddidnt pay attention and missed the deadline.
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 07, 2014, 07:20:44 PM
So with that being said I am all for letting someone give the permit back to WDFW and having a "left over draw" until they let us shoot a animal for every permit drawn.
Post by: bobcat on January 07, 2014, 07:45:49 PM
Post by: cryder on January 07, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 08, 2014, 10:17:49 AM
1) You get your points you used on that tag reinstated.
2) No reapplication process. Just use the existing applicants for that hunt like they used to do with left over multi-season permits. Ex: Say there are 10 Cowiche rifle cow tags returned. Us all the unsuccessful applicants for Cowiche rifle cow tags in that draw.
3) There was no extra fee to redraw
There are more tags that go to waste out there than a guy thinks. Not only people that draw multiple tags but people that draw tags that they end up not being able to hunt with. Give them the option of returning their tag for their points back.
I had a buddy a few years back that drew a cow tag but his deployment orders got bumped up so he was not going to be able to hunt. He contacted WDFW about getting a refund or at least his points back and they wouldn't give him a thing. Lots of tags get wasted every year for absolutely no reason because there are lots of ways that they could be reissued and put to use. Unfortunately the WDFW is all about revenue and escapement. Lots of other states put their tags to use, why can't ours?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 08, 2014, 10:26:42 AM
As much as I dislike the new system and all the unnecessary categories, I'd rather they keep it the same. I want consistency from year to year. It works just fine if you know how to work it. If you have lots of points, only apply in one category, per species. If you don't have points, then maybe take your chances and apply in all three. It's fine the way it is, each person just needs to learn how to best use it to their advantage.Agreed! The odds of drawing a quality tag are so low that I am not too worried about pulling too many tags. On the off chance that I draw a cow tag and a bull tag then my excitement over my bull tag is gonna out way my dissapointment of burning a cow permit. On most of your cow, second doe, and buck tags, the draw odds are pretty consistant so if I know that my odds of pulling one of those tags is high but I have another tag somewhere else that is gonna interfere, I will ghost point the lesser tag. Gotta know how to play the game. Its kinda fun actually. I look forward to permit season. By the time I get to Washington I have already done about 4 or 5 states already so I am good and warmed up! :chuckle:
Post by: TMortensen on January 08, 2014, 11:48:51 AM
Applying for every hunt option ex. cow, bull and Quality is a great way of screwing yourself out of future tags.
Lets take wetside units Mt Adams, Margret, and say Winston The average draw for these are. (these are rifle )
Winston cow is 6pts
Coweeman cow 5pts
White River Bull 8pts
Marget bull is 10pts
Mt Adams Quality 12pts
Lewis River 11pts
So lets start with 1pt in 2013
By 2018-2019 your drawing a cow tag
2021-2022 your drawing a Bull tag
2023-2024 your drawing a cow tag again
Post by: bobcat on January 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
Post by: Chuck83 on January 08, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
Post by: Chuck83 on January 08, 2014, 12:10:47 PM
Post by: TMortensen on January 08, 2014, 12:20:01 PM
TMortenson, That's wrong. The average points of the people who drew those permits is just that. It doesn't mean EVERY person with that number of points will draw.Part of my post got cut off when I was editing it and I didn't realize it.
But I was also saying that these are just averages and don't neccesarily mean it will be that way for everyone. a great example is this year I put in for a Big bend archery buck tag, the average draw was 8pts and I drew it with 4, so right there my 4pts threw off the average.
But I've been really successful drawing permits since the new system went into place a few years ago and have been able to draw either a deer tag or elk tag each year all my first choice of hunts too.
Maybe Im lucky IDK but if you watch the average draw and your in that average you have a pretty good chance to draw.
Post by: Bob33 on January 08, 2014, 12:35:23 PM
That's not necessarily true at all. Here's an example. The Dayton rifle elk tag had "average points" of 11 in 2012. There were 12 permits and about 1500 applicants. Odds of drawing one of the permits with 11 points would be about 2.5%.TMortenson, That's wrong. The average points of the people who drew those permits is just that. It doesn't mean EVERY person with that number of points will draw.Part of my post got cut off when I was editing it and I didn't realize it.
But I was also saying that these are just averages and don't neccesarily mean it will be that way for everyone. a great example is this year I put in for a Big bend archery buck tag, the average draw was 8pts and I drew it with 4, so right there my 4pts threw off the average.
But I've been really successful drawing permits since the new system went into place a few years ago and have been able to draw either a deer tag or elk tag each year all my first choice of hunts too.
Maybe Im lucky IDK but if you watch the average draw and your in that average you have a pretty good chance to draw.
"Average points" are about as useful as "average age" or "average height" of the successful applicants, which is to say basically useless. If you want to know your odds, you need to look at the actual number of applicants and how many points they had. For the 2012 Dayton permit, there were 56,667 names in the hat for the 12 permits. If you had 11 points, you would have 121 of the 56,667 names.
Post by: huntnphool on January 08, 2014, 12:54:29 PM
Seems to me it would be a lot more cost effective than creating a new system or completely revamping the current one. :twocents:
Post by: TMortensen on January 08, 2014, 12:57:06 PM
I'm just going off of my personal experience and what Ive done. and with the 121 entry to the 56667 entry now divide that 121/56667/12 gives you a 1 and 39 chance of drawing probably the most coveted tag in the state.That's not necessarily true at all. Here's an example. The Dayton rifle elk tag had "average points" of 11 in 2012. There were 12 permits and about 1500 applicants. Odds of drawing one of the permits with 11 points would be about 2.5%.TMortenson, That's wrong. The average points of the people who drew those permits is just that. It doesn't mean EVERY person with that number of points will draw.Part of my post got cut off when I was editing it and I didn't realize it.
But I was also saying that these are just averages and don't neccesarily mean it will be that way for everyone. a great example is this year I put in for a Big bend archery buck tag, the average draw was 8pts and I drew it with 4, so right there my 4pts threw off the average.
But I've been really successful drawing permits since the new system went into place a few years ago and have been able to draw either a deer tag or elk tag each year all my first choice of hunts too.
Maybe Im lucky IDK but if you watch the average draw and your in that average you have a pretty good chance to draw.
"Average points" are about as useful as "average age" or "average height" of the successful applicants, which is to say basically useless. If you want to know your odds, you need to look at the actual number of applicants and how many points they had. For the 2012 Dayton permit, there were 56,667 names in the hat for the 12 permits. If you had 11 points, you would have 121 of the 56,667 names.
Post by: Chuck83 on January 08, 2014, 04:13:28 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on January 29, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Wouldn't it be easier if WDFW just amended their system to only issue one permit in the event that a individual drew two? I mean who would know at that point? :dunno:I agree with this also, it would make it fine to put in for all the catagories but the first tag you draw puts you out of the rest of the drawings. No draw, no loss of points. This is a great idea! :tup:
Seems to me it would be a lot more cost effective than creating a new system or completely revamping the current one. :twocents:
Post by: trophyhunt on January 29, 2014, 10:12:06 AM
There is not any elk in blues anywaysYou are correct, they only let some out for the raffle guys during the season!!
Post by: Odiewon on February 25, 2014, 06:51:39 AM
Comments? Suggestions?
Post by: jackmaster on February 25, 2014, 06:59:40 AM
I'm preparing a write-up to submit to WDFW. They should start the draw (each species separate) process with Quality apps first, then Bull (or Buck), then antlerless, and so on. Once a person is drawn, that person is removed from any draws further down the line. Example, you put in for a Quality Bull and an Anterless Elk. If you're drawn for the Quality bull, you are removed from consideration for further elk draws. Eliminates the 2 tag situation, which occurs more often than we think. Leaves the 'second' tag available for another hunter. I'm still putting the finishing touches on mu proposed regulation change for submittal for hunting season 2015. By the way, we had a guy in our party draw a Quality bull in Goose Prairie(GMU's 352, 356), AND an antlerless permit for Bumping (GMU 356). He tagged his big bull and the antlerless tag was wasted. Some other hunter could have had that tag under my proposal.good luck with your letter :tup: i honestly think that the wdfw uses this as another managment tool, if a person draws two tags they gotta pick one and the other tag goes to waste, well in there eyes they look atn it as money in their pocket and another elk that wont get taken by a sportsman, or wolf either way they are happy about it :tup: :chuckle:
Comments? Suggestions?
Post by: idahohuntr on February 25, 2014, 08:01:26 AM
I'm preparing a write-up to submit to WDFW. They should start the draw (each species separate) process with Quality apps first, then Bull (or Buck), then antlerless, and so on. Once a person is drawn, that person is removed from any draws further down the line. Example, you put in for a Quality Bull and an Anterless Elk. If you're drawn for the Quality bull, you are removed from consideration for further elk draws. Eliminates the 2 tag situation, which occurs more often than we think. Leaves the 'second' tag available for another hunter. I'm still putting the finishing touches on mu proposed regulation change for submittal for hunting season 2015. By the way, we had a guy in our party draw a Quality bull in Goose Prairie(GMU's 352, 356), AND an antlerless permit for Bumping (GMU 356). He tagged his big bull and the antlerless tag was wasted. Some other hunter could have had that tag under my proposal.I think you've got a good idea. Send in your comments and address them to Dave Ware.
Comments? Suggestions?
Post by: bearpaw on February 25, 2014, 08:07:56 AM
I'm preparing a write-up to submit to WDFW. They should start the draw (each species separate) process with Quality apps first, then Bull (or Buck), then antlerless, and so on. Once a person is drawn, that person is removed from any draws further down the line. Example, you put in for a Quality Bull and an Anterless Elk. If you're drawn for the Quality bull, you are removed from consideration for further elk draws. Eliminates the 2 tag situation, which occurs more often than we think. Leaves the 'second' tag available for another hunter. I'm still putting the finishing touches on mu proposed regulation change for submittal for hunting season 2015. By the way, we had a guy in our party draw a Quality bull in Goose Prairie(GMU's 352, 356), AND an antlerless permit for Bumping (GMU 356). He tagged his big bull and the antlerless tag was wasted. Some other hunter could have had that tag under my proposal.
Comments? Suggestions?
This is a good idea that would provide opportunity to more hunters. :twocents:
Depending on WDFW goals with the selection process this may or may not be an option they will like, but I hope it is adopted. :tup:
Post by: Bob33 on February 25, 2014, 08:30:07 AM
If the state has to refund your money, they won't go for it. And there is some value in having two permits: you could hunt for a quality elk, and if you didn't tag one you could have for the antlerless elk.
Taking away the second opportunity that you paid for without compensating you may be the sticking point.
Post by: steeleywhopper on February 25, 2014, 08:33:57 AM
I see one flaw in the idea. Assume you purchased muliple applications and applied in multiple categories for a specie such as elk. You draw a quality permit. WDFW discards the other applications you submitted. You've now paid for something (the additional applications) of no value.
If the state has to refund your money, they won't go for it. And there is some value in having two permits: you could hunt for a quality elk, and if you didn't tag one you could have for the antlerless elk.
Taking away the second opportunity that you paid for without compensating you may be the sticking point.
No refund, you paid for a preference point.
Post by: Bob33 on February 25, 2014, 08:37:55 AM
No I didn't pay for a preference point. I applied for a specific antlerless hunt, the same as others who paid the same fee that I did.I see one flaw in the idea. Assume you purchased muliple applications and applied in multiple categories for a specie such as elk. You draw a quality permit. WDFW discards the other applications you submitted. You've now paid for something (the additional applications) of no value.
If the state has to refund your money, they won't go for it. And there is some value in having two permits: you could hunt for a quality elk, and if you didn't tag one you could have for the antlerless elk.
Taking away the second opportunity that you paid for without compensating you may be the sticking point.
No refund, you paid for a preference point.
Post by: huntnphool on February 25, 2014, 08:59:27 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on February 25, 2014, 09:15:15 AM
I'm preparing a write-up to submit to WDFW. They should start the draw (each species separate) process with Quality apps first, then Bull (or Buck), then antlerless, and so on. Once a person is drawn, that person is removed from any draws further down the line. Example, you put in for a Quality Bull and an Anterless Elk. If you're drawn for the Quality bull, you are removed from consideration for further elk draws. Eliminates the 2 tag situation, which occurs more often than we think. Leaves the 'second' tag available for another hunter. I'm still putting the finishing touches on mu proposed regulation change for submittal for hunting season 2015. By the way, we had a guy in our party draw a Quality bull in Goose Prairie(GMU's 352, 356), AND an antlerless permit for Bumping (GMU 356). He tagged his big bull and the antlerless tag was wasted. Some other hunter could have had that tag under my proposal.i like the idea, you should tell them how this poll went, over 70% in favor. Huntphool, I get it as do most that you shouldn't apply for for than one so you don't waste tags. But this happens every year, and it would be nice to not have or minimize the wasted tags.
Comments? Suggestions?
Post by: bobcat on February 25, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
I would prefer to have it go back to the way it was before 2010. But since I know that won't happen, I would rather it just stay the way it is. We were told by the WDFW that this new system would improve draw odds, and it would do so because people would only apply in one category. The idea was that a person who was mostly interested in cow elk hunts (for example) would now only apply for cow elk hunts, because he's not going to spend the extra $14 for a quality elk application.
The way it was before, with only one elk category, people would use their first two or three choices on the application for what is now called a "quality" elk permit, and then the last choice for a cow elk permit. Supposedly the new system would cause this this type of applicant to no longer apply for the quality hunts, so they would now be easier to draw. I don't know if the WDFW really believed that theory or if it was just used to sell the public on the new system.
The biggest problem was the way they distributed the existing points into all the newly created categories. People who had been holding out for only the best "quality" hunts over the years and had accumulated 14 or 15 points, now had those points in ALL categories, including antlerless, which up until now they never applied for antlerless hunts. So now we had people suddenly applying for antlerless deer and elk hunts who had never applied before. AND, these people had lots of points compared to the people who had always applied for and regularly drew antlerless hunts.
With odds of drawing antlerless hunts going down the drain, and quality hunts not gètting any better, people do what they can to improve their odds of simply drawing something, anything, because any special permit hunt is better than a general season hunt. So, people apply in every possible category. And, odds for everything are worse than they were before, even though we were told odds would improve.
As much as I dislike the new system I would prefer that it stay exactly the same. I think it's best to leave it alone and let people become accustomed to it. I think it may actually be somewhat better once a lot of the points get cleared out. And, people with a high number of points drawing multiple permits for the same specie in the same year will do exactly that.
Post by: Todd_ID on February 25, 2014, 09:23:43 AM
Does anyone really believe this happens to the extent of any real impact? Most hunters that apply for these hunts have figured it out by now and simply don't take the chance of drawing more than one. Those that have not figured it out, or willingly take the chance and draw two categories simultaneously, well........they have nobody to blame but themselves. :twocents:You need to amend your post to say that most hunters SHOULD have it figured out by now. The fact remains that MOST hunters think they SHOULD draw a tag once they reach the average points posted in the regs. And there're still plenty who think they can get two elk with two special permits. Because some of us have the way the draw system actually works down pat doesn't mean the average hunter in WA understands much, if any, of it.
Post by: Todd_ID on February 25, 2014, 09:30:31 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 25, 2014, 09:37:01 AM
Does anyone really believe this happens to the extent of any real impact? Most hunters that apply for these hunts have figured it out by now and simply don't take the chance of drawing more than one. Those that have not figured it out, or willingly take the chance and draw two categories simultaneously, well........they have nobody to blame but themselves. :twocents:You need to amend your post to say that most hunters SHOULD have it figured out by now. The fact remains that MOST hunters think they SHOULD draw a tag once they reach the average points posted in the regs. And there're still plenty who think they can get two elk with two special permits. Because some of us have the way the draw system actually works down pat doesn't mean the average hunter in WA understands much, if any, of it.
Good points Todd, and you're exactly right. That's probably exactly how the average hunter thinks. But that's good in a way. The uninformed will zero out all their points sooner, by drawing multiple permits in the same year that they will be unable to use. Too bad, I say.
And honestly, permits aren't really "wasted." A certain number do go unused but that should be reflected in a lower harvest and success rates which just allows more permits to be issued in the future.
Post by: Bob33 on February 25, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
I've never seen any data, but I suspect that a good percentage of individuals that draw multiple permits for the same specie use them both.
With elk harvest odds around 15% to 20%, there's an 80% chance that the primary permit won't result in harvest.
If you were to draw a Bull permit and a later antlerless permit, there's a good chance both would be used and not "wasted".