Post by: bearpaw on March 22, 2014, 01:08:42 PM
‘The wolf tapeworm’
Written by Gib Mathers
Although state and federal officials say it is rare, a tapeworm found in wolves could threaten humans in Park County, according to a local veterinarian.
Powell veterinarian warns of problems that may be spread by wolves
A nasty tapeworm found in Alaskan wolves has turned up in Park County and has infected multiple elk and four dogs, according to a Powell veterinarian.
State and federal officials say the risk of infecting humans is low, but veterinarian Ray Acker, who owns and operates Big Horn Animal Care Center in Powell, said it behooves hunters and dog owners to take precautions to protect themselves and their pets from the parasite.
Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) can infect and kill humans, but there have been no reported cases of human fatalities in Wyoming.
Acker said he fears it is only a matter of time before the tapeworm’s cysts invade humans and potentially kill them.
E. granulosus tapeworm can infect all carnivores, but wolves and other canines are the primary host. “You could call it the wolf tapeworm,” Acker said.
“We always take any type of situation related to human safety and wildlife very seriously,” Dan Thompson, statewide supervisor of the large carnivore management section in Lander said in an email.
Hank Edwards, Wyoming Game & Fish Department laboratory supervisor in Laramie, said don’t panic, just be aware of the risk.
“I don’t know the prevalence in wolves, but certainly some carry it,” Edwards added. “It’s very, very rare that it infects people.”
Humans contract the hydatids (cysts) from E. granulosus. Hydatid disease in humans is difficult to diagnose and may require surgery to remove them. “It can be fatal,” Acker said.
Humans can be exposed to the eggs from canine feces or fur. From there the cysts take up residence in the human’s lungs or liver.
“It is a silent killer,” Acker said. Humans can unknowingly carry the cysts for 20 years until it becomes critical. When cysts rupture, the person enters anaphylactic shock and dies within 10 minutes, Acker said.
“Right now it’s rare for humans because it’s just emerging,” Acker said.
In Alaska, there have been 300 reported cases of hydatid disease in people since 1950. That is a result of canines, primarily wolves, contaminating the landscape with billions of E. granulosus eggs in their feces. The invisible eggs are ingested by wild and domestic grazing animals and occasionally by humans who release clouds of the eggs into the air by kicking the scat or examining the feces to see what the wolf had been eating, according to a December 2009 article in The Outdoorsman.
“This is not limited to wolves, and quite honestly we as an agency always stress safety precautions when dealing with wild game and/or fur bearers as it related to ectoparasites and other potential parasites,” Thompson said. “This topic seems to flare up every now and then, but it is still important that we (Wyoming Game & Fish Department) make sure people have the facts and are safely enjoying our outdoors. Long story short, the health risk is very low.”
In the last four or five months, it has been found in wild ungulates, but not domestic ungulates in Wyoming. It is not a problem for humans, but the possibility does exist, said State Veterinarian Jim Logan.
“It’s pretty rare as far as we know,” Logan said.
“In northwest Wyoming, hydatid cysts have been found in the lungs of a few moose and elk,” according to a 2010 Echinococcus granulosus in Wyoming fact sheet from the Game & Fish. “Where the parasite is found in wolves and wild ungulates, most public health agencies consider the public health risk to be very low.”
There have been no cases of E. granulosus in the Big Horn Mountains, but there are no wolves there, Acker said.
The definitive host for E. granulosus where they reach maturity and reproduce are canines and wild carnivores.
Wild or domesticated ungulates, such as elk or sheep and humans, serve as intermediate hosts where the parasite transitions between life stages. The larval stage results in the formation of hydatid cysts in intermediate hosts.
The eggs form inside the primary host. The eggs hatch into larva and migrate to the liver and lungs to form cysts. The predator, such as a canine, feeds on intermediate host prey and become the definitive or primary hosts, Acker said.
Stock on a national forest grazing allotment could pick up the cysts while grazing. Then the animals are brought back from the mountains to their pastures here. If the stock has the cysts in its lungs, they won’t gain weight.
Or, if the stock dies, predators or dogs eat the carcass and spread the disease. If numerous stock are infected it could have a significant financial impact on producers, Acker said.
Hunters should beware
In January a friend of Acker’s killed an elk in a Meeteetse hunt area. When the hunter field-dressed the elk, the lungs were loaded with cysts. Something attracted the dogs to the elk’s lungs, perhaps an odor from the cysts, and the dogs consumed the elk’s organs. He has wormed the dogs twice with praziquantel that kills E. granulosus in canines, Acker said.
Game & Fish sent the elk lung tissue samples to the Game & Fish lab in Laramie and the lab verified it as E. granulosus, Acker said.
“Do not feed uncooked meat or organs of deer, elk, moose or sheep to dogs,” said the fact sheet.
If a hunter notes hydatid cysts in their elk, they should not panic because the tapeworms must pass through a primary host like a dog first, Acker said.
Wolf hunters should be cautious handling their kill. Wear rubber gloves and take care handling feces and intestines, Acker said.
“Those hunting or trapping canids (mammals of the dog family) in Wyoming are encouraged to wear latex or rubber gloves when field dressing and skinning their animals. Additionally, wild game meat should always be cooked thoroughly,” said the fact sheet.
Taking the wolf pelt to a car wash and using the high-pressure hose to blow eggs off the fur is a handy precaution. Taxidermists should also use care, Acker said.
Watch for white segments around the rectums and in the dog’s stool. Initially the one-quarter by one-eighth inch segments will move slightly. Worm your dogs, Acker said.
Eggs can survive in excrement for up to one year. “I think they do well in the cold,” Acker said.
Dogs, with a propensity to roll in feces can collect the eggs on their coat and pass it on to their masters, Acker said.
Deworm dogs regularly. The best methods to prevent infection in humans are practicing good hygiene like wearing rubber or latex gloves and washing hands after handling dog excrement, said the fact sheet.
People should take precautions handling any wildlife. For example, people can contract bubonic plague from handling prairie dogs, Logan said.
Acker believes the disease has just reared its head among wildlife in this area. “We didn’t have it down here until they introduced these wolves,” he said.
In 1995/96 wolves from Alberta and British Columbia were re-introduced with 31 wolves in Yellowstone National Park and 35 in central Idaho. They were treated for parasites including, E. granulosus and it was well documented, Jimenez said.
“All wolves captured in Canada for relocation to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho were treated for lice, roundworms and tapeworms before being released in Wyoming,” said the fact sheet.
Some people who dislike wolves returning to the region cite E. granulosus as another factor for their disdain for the canines. Acker admits to being anti-wolf, but he said if there are a lot of rabid skunks in the area they are eliminated in the interest of public safety.
“I’m anti-wolf here,” Acker said. “I think they belong where they came from.”
“People who are not real crazy about wolves see it as another reason to not be crazy about wolves,” said Mike Jimenez, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service gray wolf recovery coordinator in Jackson.
When Acker was a graduate student at Kansas State in Manhattan, he dissected two human livers from cadavers brimming with cysts. Action should be taken now, he said.
“Are we going to wait till somebody dies or try to keep somebody from dying?” Acker said.
Post by: AspenBud on March 23, 2014, 08:56:51 AM
In other words, don't be a pig.
Talk about a eureka moment!
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 23, 2014, 09:40:55 AM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 23, 2014, 09:58:22 AM
A nasty tapeworm found in Alaskan wolves has turned up in Park County and has infected multiple elk and four dogs, according to a Powell veterinarian
Hunters should beware
In January a friend of Acker’s killed an elk in a Meeteetse hunt area. When the hunter field-dressed the elk, the lungs were loaded with cysts. Something attracted the dogs to the elk’s lungs, perhaps an odor from the cysts, and the dogs consumed the elk’s organs. He has wormed the dogs twice with praziquantel that kills E. granulosus in canines, Acker said.
Nothing strikes you as odd in this story? The dogs were out elk hunting with the guy maybe? And they were attracted by the odor of the cysts? Good grief!
Game & Fish sent the elk lung tissue samples to the Game & Fish lab in Laramie and the lab verified it as E. granulosus, Acker said.
So did the dogs consume the lungs or not? How were they "sent" to the lab?
“I’m anti-wolf here,” Acker said. “I think they belong where they came from.”
This says it all about the veracity of this story.
When Acker was a graduate student at Kansas State in Manhattan, he dissected two human livers from cadavers brimming with cysts. Action should be taken now, he said.
Did the Cadavers get the disease from introduced wolves? Enquiring minds want to know. Because this story sounds like a National Enquirer story.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 23, 2014, 10:06:38 AM
In 1995/96 wolves from Alberta and British Columbia were re-introduced with 31 wolves in Yellowstone National Park and 35 in central Idaho. They were treated for parasites including, E. granulosus and it was well documented, Jimenez said.
“All wolves captured in Canada for relocation to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho were treated for lice, roundworms and tapeworms before being released in Wyoming,” said the fact sheet.
Not to mention this. If these wolves are spreading these parasites, they must have picked them up in Wyoming. Which means the worms were already there before the wolves got there. Of course that ruins the narrative of this story.
Post by: Bob33 on March 23, 2014, 10:13:49 AM
Post by: AspenBud on March 23, 2014, 01:37:43 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 23, 2014, 02:10:50 PM
Wolves are the perfect host and scatter the worm widely. Two thirds of wolves tested from MT and ID at WSU were infected with thousands of tapeworms. The biggest problem is that now we have a perfect host spreading these worms around so now other animals will have a higher rate of infestations. If you don't believe the percentage look back in the wolf forum, it's all documented.
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 06:36:48 AM
There were occasional cases of the tapeworm in the northwest.
Wolves are the perfect host and scatter the worm widely. Two thirds of wolves tested from MT and ID at WSU were infected with thousands of tapeworms. The biggest problem is that now we have a perfect host spreading these worms around so now other animals will have a higher rate of infestations. If you don't believe the percentage look back in the wolf forum, it's all documented.
So are coyotes and the rabbits they eat.
Post by: bearpaw on March 24, 2014, 10:02:12 AM
There were occasional cases of the tapeworm in the northwest.
Wolves are the perfect host and scatter the worm widely. Two thirds of wolves tested from MT and ID at WSU were infected with thousands of tapeworms. The biggest problem is that now we have a perfect host spreading these worms around so now other animals will have a higher rate of infestations. If you don't believe the percentage look back in the wolf forum, it's all documented.
So are coyotes and the rabbits they eat.
Actually coyotes and rabbits do not range near as widely spreading the eggs in their feces across hundreds of miles of the countryside as wolves do. There's reasons why Echinococcus granulosus is often referred to as "wolfworms".
Documentation of 62% and 63% Echinococcus granulosus (wolf worm) infestation rate respectively in ID/MT wolves:
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 10:35:38 AM
There were occasional cases of the tapeworm in the northwest.
Wolves are the perfect host and scatter the worm widely. Two thirds of wolves tested from MT and ID at WSU were infected with thousands of tapeworms. The biggest problem is that now we have a perfect host spreading these worms around so now other animals will have a higher rate of infestations. If you don't believe the percentage look back in the wolf forum, it's all documented.
So are coyotes and the rabbits they eat.
Actually coyotes and rabbits do not range near as widely spreading the eggs in their feces across hundreds of miles of the countryside as wolves do. There's reasons why Echinococcus granulosus is often referred to as "wolfworms".
Believe what you like.
But I'll humor you and say that as it relates to wolves, the folks in Minnesota have been dealing with that very parasite for many more years than any of us out here have and it has never become a giant public health hazard. That too is documented...
"E. granulosus has been present in Minnesota wolves for over thirty years. Surveillance data collected there have revealed no evidence of E. granulosus infection in humans or livestock."
See page 2
http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Portals/0/Health/Epi/IDB/201004.pdf (http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Portals/0/Health/Epi/IDB/201004.pdf)
Also see page 1 and this....
"The majority of documented human infections in the United States have been acquired in endemic countries or in persons whose cultural practices allowed close contact with a definitive parasite host . "
In other words, contact with wolf, dog, or other canine poop and a lack of good hygiene.
Again, if you're going to freak out about this then you should also be freaking out about giardia, roundworms, e coli, and so on every time you see a dog relieving itself and the owners don't scoop it or when a dog eats random poop.
Post by: bearpaw on March 24, 2014, 11:05:44 AM
We know that 2/3 of wolves are carrying this parasite and that the parasite is transmitted through feces on the ground.
What about people eating mushrooms, huckleberries, and other wild foods in wolf areas? Shouldn't these people be warned of the danger of wolf scat on or near these food sources?
What about domestic dogs becoming infected by sniffing wolf scat and then passing the parasite to small children who play with the family dog?
I do not see it as unreasonable that agencies should warn the general populace. :twocents:
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 11:14:51 AM
My main concern is regarding the potential spread of Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) throughout the west and onto rural residences and ranches by these wide ranging wolves that cross between states and countries on a regular basis and the failure of most agencies involved to adequately warn hunters and ranchers so that we can all take measures to protect ourselves.
We know that 2/3 of wolves are carrying this parasite and that the parasite is transmitted through feces on the ground.
What about people eating mushrooms, huckleberries, and other wild foods in wolf areas? Shouldn't these people be warned of the danger of wolf scat on or near these food sources?
What about domestic dogs becoming infected by sniffing wolf scat and then passing the parasite to small children who play with the family dog?
I do not see it as unreasonable that agencies should warn the general populace. :twocents:
I rather thought most people were aware of the parasites that dogs can bring in. It's why you have scoop laws and why people fence dogs in or discourage them from eating other dogs' poop.
Again
"E. granulosus has been present in Minnesota wolves for over thirty years. Surveillance data collected there have revealed no evidence of E. granulosus infection in humans or livestock."
They pick berries and mushrooms there too and if you think dogs don't hunt in or roam in wolf country out there you'd be wrong.
Post by: bearpaw on March 24, 2014, 11:22:34 AM
My main concern is regarding the potential spread of Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) throughout the west and onto rural residences and ranches by these wide ranging wolves that cross between states and countries on a regular basis and the failure of most agencies involved to adequately warn hunters and ranchers so that we can all take measures to protect ourselves.
We know that 2/3 of wolves are carrying this parasite and that the parasite is transmitted through feces on the ground.
What about people eating mushrooms, huckleberries, and other wild foods in wolf areas? Shouldn't these people be warned of the danger of wolf scat on or near these food sources?
What about domestic dogs becoming infected by sniffing wolf scat and then passing the parasite to small children who play with the family dog?
I do not see it as unreasonable that agencies should warn the general populace. :twocents:
I rather thought most people were aware of the parasites that dogs can bring in. It's why you have scoop laws and why people fence dogs in or discourage them from eating other dogs' poop.
Again
"E. granulosus has been present in Minnesota wolves for over thirty years. Surveillance data collected there have revealed no evidence of E. granulosus infection in humans or livestock."
They pick berries and mushrooms there too and if you think dogs don't hunt in or roam in wolf country out there you'd be wrong.
Wolves are prevalent in MN, I would think Minnesota agencies should also warn the people of the potential to become infected.
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 11:47:47 AM
My main concern is regarding the potential spread of Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) throughout the west and onto rural residences and ranches by these wide ranging wolves that cross between states and countries on a regular basis and the failure of most agencies involved to adequately warn hunters and ranchers so that we can all take measures to protect ourselves.
We know that 2/3 of wolves are carrying this parasite and that the parasite is transmitted through feces on the ground.
What about people eating mushrooms, huckleberries, and other wild foods in wolf areas? Shouldn't these people be warned of the danger of wolf scat on or near these food sources?
What about domestic dogs becoming infected by sniffing wolf scat and then passing the parasite to small children who play with the family dog?
I do not see it as unreasonable that agencies should warn the general populace. :twocents:
I rather thought most people were aware of the parasites that dogs can bring in. It's why you have scoop laws and why people fence dogs in or discourage them from eating other dogs' poop.
Again
"E. granulosus has been present in Minnesota wolves for over thirty years. Surveillance data collected there have revealed no evidence of E. granulosus infection in humans or livestock."
They pick berries and mushrooms there too and if you think dogs don't hunt in or roam in wolf country out there you'd be wrong.
Wolves are prevalent in MN, I would think Minnesota agencies should also warn the people of the potential to become infected.
Yes, they have been for years and yet no one has been infected. There is no public health crisis there.
Post by: Northway on March 24, 2014, 01:37:32 PM
Of course there are folks who want to blow the risk way out of proportion just because they'll use absolutely anything to vilify wolves......
Post by: Special T on March 24, 2014, 03:29:58 PM
Post by: KFhunter on March 24, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
I wonder what the danger is that range cattle will become infected with the wolf tape worm causing the destruction of the entire herd? (think mad cow)
Then the range area shut down permanently due to wolf tape worm contamination in the soil.
I know some of you would applaud this though :'(
hrm - something to ponder.
Post by: JLS on March 24, 2014, 04:28:17 PM
I wonder what the danger is that range cattle will become infected with the wolf tape worm causing the destruction of the entire herd? (think mad cow)
Then the range area shut down permanently due to wolf tape worm contamination in the soil.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs377/en/ (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs377/en/)
Like slim and none, unless Americans suddenly have a penchant for eating
Post by: KFhunter on March 24, 2014, 04:31:35 PM
I wonder what the danger is that range cattle will become infected with the wolf tape worm causing the destruction of the entire herd? (think mad cow)
Then the range area shut down permanently due to wolf tape worm contamination in the soil.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs377/en/ (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs377/en/)
Like slim and none, unless Americans suddenly have a penchant for eating offal.
"slim and none" might be optimistic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259)
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 04:39:11 PM
If i remeber correctly your standard de wormer does nothing forthis tape worm... It requires a special dose that is on the expensive side something like $100 per dose...
I believe praziquantel and epsiprantel are the standard dewormers for dogs with this parasite. They are not that expensive.
If you can come up with the name of something else, I'd be interested to know.
Post by: JLS on March 24, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
"slim and none" might be optimistic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259)
Maybe not....
Quote
Cystic echinococcosis is a preventable disease as it involves domestic animal species as definitive and intermediate hosts. Periodic deworming of dogs, improved hygiene in the slaughtering of livestock (including proper destruction of infected offal), and public education campaigns have been found to lower and, in high income countries, prevent transmission and alleviate the burden of human disease.
Vaccination of sheep with an E. granulosus recombinant antigen (EG95) offers encouraging prospects for prevention and control. Small-scale EG95 vaccine trials in sheep indicate high efficacy and safety with vaccinated lambs not becoming infected with E. granulosus.
A programme combining vaccination of lambs, deworming of dogs and culling of older sheep could lead to elimination of cystic echinococcosis disease in humans in less than 10 years.
It's not even remotely the same thing as Mad Cow Disease, and if it can be potentially eliminated in a third world country in 10 years I don't see it suddenly becoming a major conern in the US, given that it's been around for many years.
Post by: AspenBud on March 24, 2014, 04:51:55 PM
Does MN have much for open range, or a cattle industry?
Maybe you should ask them.
http://www.mnsca.org/ (http://www.mnsca.org/)
That would actually be interesting, not to mention their perspective on the parasite.
Post by: KFhunter on March 24, 2014, 04:57:30 PM
Well, it appears that sheep are still sold to market with Cystic echinococcosis. I guess that answers that. However what I did find was wide spread condemnation of "home butchering" of animals.
I can see home butchering becoming illegal at some point in the future, or very tough to get the USDA stamp and Washington stamps for small artisan butcher shops.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 24, 2014, 05:04:08 PM
My main concern is regarding the potential spread of Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) throughout the west and onto rural residences and ranches by these wide ranging wolves that cross between states and countries on a regular basis and the failure of most agencies involved to adequately warn hunters and ranchers so that we can all take measures to protect ourselves
Good grief Dale, there have been tapeworms in Washington for forever. Most every dog that used to run free would get them. It's not like tapeworms are rare here and wolves brought them here. The tens of thousands of coyotes and raccoons have spread them to every place imaginable in the state and then there are the intermediate hosts like deer and elk and rabbits. Where ever they are there are probably tapeworms too. This might be the dumbest reason of all to hate wolves.
Post by: RG on March 24, 2014, 05:11:38 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 24, 2014, 05:18:02 PM
My main concern is regarding the potential spread of Echinococcosis granulosus (E. granulosus) throughout the west and onto rural residences and ranches by these wide ranging wolves that cross between states and countries on a regular basis and the failure of most agencies involved to adequately warn hunters and ranchers so that we can all take measures to protect ourselves
Good grief Dale, there have been tapeworms in Washington for forever. Most every dog that used to run free would get them. It's not like tapeworms are rare here and wolves brought them here. The tens of thousands of coyotes and raccoons have spread them to every place imaginable in the state and then there are the intermediate hosts like deer and elk and rabbits. Where ever they are there are probably tapeworms too. This might be the dumbest reason of all to hate wolves.
Good grief Sitka, the common tapeworm in dogs do not cause cysts on the liver, lungs, or brain. That might possibly be the least intelligent post you've ever made on this forum. As hound hunters our dogs are exposed to wolf feces every year as they track cougar and bear in wolf country, this is something to be concerned about. My son has a 2 year old child who pets and plays with our dogs. Echinococcosis granulosus is a far nastier and dangerous parasite than common tapeworms found in the creatures you mention! This is a valid reason to be concerned about the dogs and ourselves being exposed to these wolf worms on a regular basis. Anyone with pets or stock dogs in wolf country should have the same concerns, yet WDFW and other agencies have failed to warn the people of the dangers.
Post by: KFhunter on March 24, 2014, 05:31:46 PM
"slim and none" might be optimistic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632259)
Maybe not....QuoteCystic echinococcosis is a preventable disease as it involves domestic animal species as definitive and intermediate hosts. Periodic deworming of dogs, improved hygiene in the slaughtering of livestock (including proper destruction of infected offal), and public education campaigns have been found to lower and, in high income countries, prevent transmission and alleviate the burden of human disease.
Vaccination of sheep with an E. granulosus recombinant antigen (EG95) offers encouraging prospects for prevention and control. Small-scale EG95 vaccine trials in sheep indicate high efficacy and safety with vaccinated lambs not becoming infected with E. granulosus.
A programme combining vaccination of lambs, deworming of dogs and culling of older sheep could lead to elimination of cystic echinococcosis disease in humans in less than 10 years.
It's not even remotely the same thing as Mad Cow Disease, and if it can be potentially eliminated in a third world country in 10 years I don't see it suddenly becoming a major conern in the US, given that it's been around for many years.
thanks JLS - that is positive news :tup:
I've been kicking around having a small flock of sheep myself.
Post by: bearpaw on March 24, 2014, 05:35:47 PM
I find it interesting that people on here are working so hard to make it sound like this tapeworm is no big deal, nothing really. If it was stray house cats spreading it instead of wolves they would have a different point of view. This whole debate just points out once again what a "special animal" wolves are to some people. When I read this my conclusion is, there may have been some of these things around, but in 50 years of hunting, dressing, and butchering elk and deer, a portion of those years as a hunting guide during which my clients killed 8 to 12 elk and around 15 deer per year, I never heard of cysts in the animals. Some of my guiding was done just north of Gardiner in Montana and involved hunting elk from the Yellowstone herd. Now that the introduced wolves showed up, guess what they are spreading. Way to go wolf introduction folks, you get another gold award for your environmental stewardship. City people irritate me. By the way, in the middle to late 80's we repeatedly saw wolf tracks on the trails around Ramshorn Peak in Tom Miner basin. We also saw wolves in winter chasing Bighorn Sheep on a ridge we called "round patch" on the south side of Tom Miner Basin. I and the people I worked and hunted with have no problem differentiating between wolves, dogs and coyotes in case somebody brings that up. Somehow nobody talked about that when it was time to reintroduce. Politics and special interests again I imagine. I wish they would use their money and political influence for something productive.
:yeah: I've been guiding hunters for years and never found an infected liver in Idaho, Montana, Utah, or Washington until recently. Now hunters are finding infected livers on a fairly regular basis. Here is an infected moose liver I recently found here in Washington. In time these cysts can grow as large as a fist. If they rupture they can cause death. If a predator kills and eats the moose then the cycle is complete. The predator gets wolf worms and then passes the tapeworm eggs in it's feces and more moose, deer, elk, dogs, and humans may become exposed to infection.
Post by: RG on March 24, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
Post by: villageidiot on March 24, 2014, 09:57:32 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 24, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
Good grief Sitka, the common tapeworm in dogs do not cause cysts on the liver, lungs, or brain. That might possibly be the least intelligent post you've ever made on this forum. As hound hunters our dogs are exposed to wolf feces every year as they track cougar and bear in wolf country, this is something to be concerned about. My son has a 2 year old child who pets and plays with our dogs. Echinococcosis granulosus is a far nastier and dangerous parasite than common tapeworms found in the creatures you mention! This is a valid reason to be concerned about the dogs and ourselves being exposed to these wolf worms on a regular basis. Anyone with pets or stock dogs in wolf country should have the same concerns, yet WDFW and other agencies have failed to warn the people of the dangers.
Again, I have to help with your education.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife/health_program/docs/ParasiteFlyer.pdf (http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife/health_program/docs/ParasiteFlyer.pdf)
Money quote..... "Hydatid cysts were found in domestic sheep from Idaho sent to California for slaughter in the late 1960s and early 1970s. In Oregon, hydatid cysts were documented in a deer carcass from Grant County in 1977. So, the parasite
is possibly maintained in wild coyote and fox populations in our state."
and "The tapeworm has a worldwide distribution with two recognized “biotypes.” The ‘northern’ biotype that circulates
between canids (wolf, dog) and wild ungulates (moose, caribou, reindeer, deer and elk) is primarily found in northern latitudes above the 45th parallel. The ‘southern’ biotype circulates between dogs and domestic ungulates, especially sheep. It is endemic and common in most sheep-raising areas of the world."
So the dreaded Hydatid cysts were present in Idaho back in the late 60's and early 70's and they didn't have wolves to spread them around. And I believe all of Washington and northern Idaho and most of Montana are north of the 45th parallel so they are in prime "northern biotype" country. Moose, caribou, reindeer, deer and elk, are just as responsible for the spread of tapeworms as wolves. Dogs even more so.
But there's even more!
"Can humans get infected with Echinococcus granulosus?
Humans are not a natural host of the parasite, but in rare cases can be infected by ingesting eggs from canid feces, usually from a domestic dog. In humans, hydatid cysts usually develop in the liver or lungs, and there are several treatments for the disease. Throughout the world, most human cases occur in indigenous people with close contact with infected dogs. The hydatid cysts that can form in intermediate hosts (ungulates like deer and elk) are not infectious to humans."
Gee Dale, that ruins your whole hypothesis....... People get the cysts "usually from a domestic dog" The cysts in deer and elk are "not infectious to humans" "most human cases occur in indigenous people with close contact with infected dogs".
Go ahead and tell me again how intelligent my post wasn't.
Oh wait, there's even more.............
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/diseaseechinococcuswolves.pdf (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/diseaseechinococcuswolves.pdf)
Money quotes............ "Human infection with the domestic biotype of E. granulosus is considered to be more severe than the northern biotype (McManus et al. 2002), largely due to the potential for brain involvement."
Gee that "common tapeworm" variety of tapeworm is more dangerous than that "Northern biotype" you're so afraid of.
And...... "hinococcus multilocularis has a two host life cycle with canids as the definitive host for adult
worms and rodents as the intermediate host for the larval worms. The adults are small and live in the
small intestine of dogs, foxes and cats. The eggs are passed in the feces and accidently ingested by small
rodents, primarily mice and voles, in which the eggs hatch and migrate to the abdominal cavity and form
multicompartmental hydatid cysts called alveolar or multilocular cysts. "
So dang, those scary sounding hydatid cysts come from the old "common tapeworms" as you call them, too. But when you get all your information from websites like "Lobo Watch", you're bound to end up misinformed.
Post by: RG on March 25, 2014, 07:33:23 AM
Post by: AspenBud on March 25, 2014, 08:19:29 AM
If you are such a fan of them then move to somewhere in rural Idaho or Montana and rub elbows with people who live in wolf country every day of their lives. Try your theories on them and you will find that they have first hand knowledge, not internet knowledge.
:chuckle: :chuckle: Now that's funny given all of the internet expert material that gets floated on here regularly from the anti wolf side. I'll bet 20 board certified veterinarians with decades of experience could come on here and tell you that this tapeworm is not a big deal and you'd still reach out to skinny moose,lobo watch, or an editorial from Joe Bob's blog to try and refute them.
Post by: JLS on March 25, 2014, 08:29:40 AM
rub elbows with people who live in wolf country every day of their lives. Try your theories on them and you will find that they have first hand knowledge, not internet knowledge.
I always find it amusing the assumptions that are made that anyone who disagrees must not have any real connection. Well, some of us do. I'm sure though that my connections are not near as knowledgeable and as important as yours. Otherwise, they too would know the "truth".
Post by: DoubleJ on March 25, 2014, 08:55:32 AM
Post by: RG on March 25, 2014, 08:59:10 AM
Post by: wolfbait on March 25, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Interesting.. Here's the deal, the cysts are showing up in big game all of a sudden. People who have made their living in the business of finding and then field dressing big game animals for clients for decades, as well as people who have hunted and field dressed their own big game animals for decades have never seen or heard of cysts in big game animals until recently. I've field dressed quite a few but a very small number compared to others I know in British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho who have fed their families and the families of their guides, wranglers, and packers for years in this business. I also know that, as far as wolves are concerned, the possibility of them spreading tapeworms is only one of the problems they bring. If you are such a fan of them then move to somewhere in rural Idaho or Montana and rub elbows with people who live in wolf country every day of their lives. Try your theories on them and you will find that they have first hand knowledge, not internet knowledge. Your ideas aren't going to be very well received there, in fact they might get a little hostile when you tell them wolves haven't caused any new problems that foxes and coyotes hadn't already caused in their community. Just sayin..
A perfect it example, of what once was and what has happened since the illegal wolf introduction. I believe IDFG passed a new rule that hunters should not open the gut cavity up anymore because of these cysts.
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 10:07:28 AM
I don't really put a lot of stock in people who are "important" or have fancy titles. I had a past life where that was the case. The people I'm talking about here are honest hard working good people with no hidden agenda. They dont graze in anybody elses pocket and nobody is in theirs. A lot of them are probably ignorant by your standards because they may not have Facebook and twitter accounts. They make their living in rural areas and grew up in families that did the same. Some didnt even go to college by gosh. They never heard of Lobo Watch or Skinny Moose or any of the pro anti special interest drivel. What they know and what they've told me comes from a lifetime of first hand observation and experience and, interestingly enough, they don't think wolves have made anything better. Read your Internet all you want because somebody on there will give you "facts" to support any position you care to take. It's all interesting but first hand observation carries more weight for me personally. Believe what you want though, that's totally your choice just don't ignore the opinion of people who make their living from the land in wolf country. I can assure you they know more about what is going on with the animals in their area than you or I or any city-born college educated biologist if that biologist doesn't spend months out of every year in the back country watching the game herd.
So aside from this stuff about how city people are annoying, uninformed, never spend any time in the woods and rural folks are all the salt of the earth, what do you propose is a proper level of education WDFW could provide on EG?
What is the proper level of notification/education vs. the risk?
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 10:17:11 AM
So dang, those scary sounding hydatid cysts come from the old "common tapeworms" as you call them, too. But when you get all your information from websites like "Lobo Watch", you're bound to end up misinformed.
I'm not surprised to see you react so passionately. Your devotion to your cause of protecting wolves against any public opposition is commendable, even if irresponsible.
You attempted to infer that common dog tapeworms were Echinococcus granulosus, that was false and I corrected you.
Now you imply that Echinococcus multilocularis is what this topic is about, but again I'll correct you. This topic is about Echinococcus granulosus which has been proven at WSU to be prevalent in 2/3 of wolves tested from Idaho and Montana.
I am familiar with the different forms of Echinococcosis and it's no secret that Echinococcus multilocularis is common in sheep and dogs, especially on other continents. But this topic is about Echinococcus granulosus which is being carried around the countryside by 2/3 of the wolves in the northern Rockies region, including Washington. The concern is that these wide ranging wolves may spread Echinococcus granulosus and that it may become more prevalent in wildlife, dogs, and possibly humans.
I would hope that agencies would inform the people of this dangerous parasite and how to protect themselves from infection in hopes that Echinococcosis does not become more common. I'm very sorry Sitka Blacktail does not see the value in preventative actions and chooses to instead deny wolves might spread this parasite even though WSU has confirmed a 2/3 rate of infection in wolves tested.
For anyone else who wants to know more about wolves and Echinococcus granulosus (wolf worms) here is some additional info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcosis)
Quote
Echinococcosis
Echinococcosis, also called hydatid disease, hydatidosis, or echinococcal disease, is a parasitic disease of tapeworms of the Echinococcus type. People get two main types of disease, cystic echinococcosis and alveolar echinococcosis. There are two less common forms polycystic echinococcosis and unicystic echinococcosis. The disease often starts without symptoms and this may last for year. The symptoms and signs that occur depend on the cysts location and size. Alveolar disease usually begins in the liver but can spread to other parts of the body such as the lungs or brain. When the liver is affected the person may have abdominal pain, weight loss, and turn yellow. Lung disease may cause pain in the chest, shortness of breath and a cough.[1]
The disease is spread when food or water that contains the eggs of the parasite is eaten or by close contact with an infected animal.[1] The eggs are released in the stool of meat eating animals that are infected by the parasite.[2] Commonly infected animals include: dogs, foxes and wolves.[2] For these animals to become infected they must eat the organs of an animal that contains the cysts such as sheep or rodents.[2] The type of disease which occurs in people depends on the type of Echinococcus causing the infection. Diagnosis is usually by ultrasound though computer tomography (CT) or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) may also be used. Blood tests looking for antibodies against the parasite may be helpful as may biopsy.[1]
Prevention of cystic disease is by treating dogs that may carry the disease and vaccination of sheep. Treatment is often difficult. The cystic disease may be drained through the skin followed by medication.[1] Sometimes this type of disease is just watched.[3] The alveolar type often needs surgery followed by medications.[1] The medication used is albendazole which may be needed for years.[1][3] The alveolar disease may result in death.[1]
The disease occurs in most areas of the world and currently affects about one million people. In some areas of South America, Africa, and Asia up to 10% of the certain populations are affected.[1] As of 2010 it caused about 1200 death down from 2000 in 1990.[4] The economic cost of the disease is estimated to be around 3 billion USD a year. It can affect other animals such as pigs, cows and horses.[1]
http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/the-future-of-north-american-wolves-interview-with-dr-valerius-geist/ (http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/the-future-of-north-american-wolves-interview-with-dr-valerius-geist/)
The Future of North American Wolves, Interview with Dr. Valerius Geist
Quote
Dr. Valerius Geist has several decades of experience studying wildlife and has developed a seven-stage habituation pattern for wolves when wild food runs out.
All across North America, efforts are underway to restore wolf populations. Much of the press has painted a rosy picture of co-existing with wolves. For another opinion, I talked with ethologist Dr. Valerius Geist. Val has published 17 books on wildlife and large mammals (humans included) and served 27 years as a professor at the University of Calgary.
During some 50 years in the field, he had observed wolves on many occasions. “My early experiences with mainland wolves indicated that they were inquisitive, intelligent, but shy and cautious. During my academic career and four years into retirement I thought of wolves as harmless, echoing the words of many North American colleagues. I was wrong!”
He changed his mind when he retired to Vancouver Island in 1995, where he and his wife found themselves living with wolves as neighbors. He relayed some of his first-hand experience with them to me:
Quote
His second prediction was on hydatid disease:
The most important thing about the fate of wolves is hydatid disease. The threat scenario involves ranch dogs feasting on gut piles left by hunters or winter-killed elk and deer whose lungs and liver are infected with hydatid cysts. Deer and elk infected with cysts try to crowd in on private ranches trying to get away from wolves. A ranch dog gulping down the cysts will have mature tape worms in his gut within seven weeks or so and will then pass the deadly eggs in the ranch yard, kennel, veranda, and so on. People will bring infective eggs on their shoes into the house. Carpets and furniture will soon be hosting live, infective hydatid eggs. Children will be specially affected. Cysts take about a decade to mature. I will take at least another decade for cysts to grow to orange or grapefruit size in people. Nobody is facing up to the disease threat.
He added, “I do not think wolves have a happy future in the Lower 48.”
I agree with RG, sometimes you need to live with the wolves to become more educated about them. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 10:28:20 AM
What is the proper level of notification/education vs. the risk?
I'll address the constructive portion of your post:
WDFW should have a warning on their website and in the hunting regulations warning hunters, trappers, ranchers, taxidermists, and other higher risk groups of the prevelance, potential dangers, and how to avoid infection by Echinococcus granulosus.
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 10:36:20 AM
So, if an elk or deer is infected, as long as I only eat the meat and not the organs, and since the cysts haven't passed through a carnivore and ended up in it's poop, I'm safe, right?
I don't feel safe telling you what to eat from an infected animal. Another concern is that you also protect the family dog from exposure to infected animals or their feces.
The infected moose liver I posted the photos of was destroyed. The moose meat was eaten by the hunter and his family, I just hope they cooked it all well done. I assume, but do not know for certain that cooking the meat well done makes it safe to eat.
Post by: idahohuntr on March 25, 2014, 10:46:42 AM
Here ya go. :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 11:07:17 AM
http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/?getPage=209 (http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/?getPage=209)
Here ya go. :tup:
:tup:
Thanks, Idaho for Wildlife had been requesting that IDFG put out this info for several years, glad to see it posted. WDFW is still in some type of denial about wolf worms. Thanks for the link. Hopefully some people in WDFW will see and read the Idaho info and take similar action.
Post by: RG on March 25, 2014, 11:08:53 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 11:24:51 AM
Quote
Hydatid disease unlike most parasitic diseases is more prevalent in the northern hemisphere. Human infection is most common in sheep-raising countries such as Australia and New Zealand, throughout England and Europe, the Middle East, Russia, Northern China, and Japan. In the Americas the disease is especially prevalent in the Southern Cone countries such as Argentina, Uruguay and Chile, and also occurs in Alaska and Canada.
Alveolar hydatid disease (E. multilocularis) is a less widespread disease that occurs in countries with larger distributions of the reservoir hosts dogs, wolves, foxes and cats. The disease is mainly prevalent in northern and central Europe, Alaska, and parts of Canada.
The spread of Echinococcus infection depends on the presence of dogs and foxes as definitive hosts, susceptible intermediate hosts such as sheep, goats and swine, an environment that enables egg survival, and human populations living in close contact with domesticated animals.
Please notice that the distribution of E. Granulosa almost duplicates distribution of gray wolves in North America! Does the fact that 2/3 of wolves from ID/MT tested by WSU were infected with EG have any significance with the dark (distribution) zone of E Granulosa on the map reaching into ID/MT?
Not many sheep being raised in Alaska!
Global distribution of E. granulosa (black) and E. multilocularis (x)
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 25, 2014, 11:33:30 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 11:46:06 AM
http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/?getPage=209 (http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/?getPage=209)
Echinococcus granulosus
Tuesday, March 25, 2014
For More Information:
◾Echinococcus: Focus on Idaho - Idaho Health & Welfare Disease Bulletin, April 2010
◾Echinococcus granulosus Q&A - Idaho Fish and Game
◾Echinococcus granulosus in Wolves in Idaho - [PDF, 142 KB]
◾Parasites and Health - Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
◾Disease Precautions for Hunters - American Veterinary Medical Association
◾Echinococcosis - Michigan Dept of Natural Resources and Environment
◾Echinococcus granulosus History, Info - Stanford University
◾Echinococcosis - From Wikipedia
What Is It?
◾Echinococcus granulosus (E. granulosus) is a very small (3-5mm) tapeworm that requires two different animal species, a canid and an ungulate, to complete its lifecycle.
Why Is It Important?
◾Echinicoccus granulosus can infect humans (Cystic Hydatid Disease).
◾The presence of E. granulosus in wild canids and possibly domestic dogs in Idaho may allow humans to be exposed to this parasite.
Where Is It Located?
◾Echinococcus granulosus is common worldwide in a domestic sheep and dog cycle.
◾In some places E. granulosus occurs in wolves and wild ungulates, dingos and kangaroos, and jackels and domestic cattle.
◾Global Distribution Map. - [PDF, 1.4 MB]
Who Is Affected By It?
◾The adult tapeworm lives in the small intestine of a canid (dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes).
◾The larval form (hydatid) is usually found in the lungs or liver of a herbivore (deer, elk, moose, sheep, cattle).
◾Humans may become infected with the larval (hydatid) stage, after ingesting eggs of this parasite.
How Does Infection Occur?
◾If a canid eats a hydatid from an ungulate, the juvenile tapeworms (protoscolices) grows into an adult tapeworm in the intestine of the canid host.
◾The adult tapeworm in the canid releases eggs in the feces of the canid.
◾If a herbivore grazes an area that is contaminated with the tapeworm eggs, eggs that are eaten hatch into an oncospheres or larvae and migrate through blood vessels, generally to the lung or liver where it forms a hydatid cyst.
◾If a human eats an egg, it can hatch into an oncospheres or larvae and form a hydatid cyst in tissue, generally the lung or liver. The cysts can vary in size (1-14 inches) and generally take years to develop.
◾See Life Cycle. - [PDF, 1.4 MB]
How Do I Keep Myself, My Family, and My Pets From Becoming Affected?
◾Do not harvest obviously sick or injured animals.
◾Wear latex or rubber gloves when field dressing and skinning game.
◾Thoroughly cook wild game meat.
◾Do not touch or disturb dead animals or carnivore feces.
◾Regularly deworm pet dogs.
◾Do not let pet dogs eat organs or scraps from hunter harvested or road killed animals.
◾Practice good hygiene - washing hands and washing contaminated clothes, especially after handling animals or feces.
What Is Idaho Fish and Game Doing to Help Manage This Disease?
◾Since 1998, Idaho Fish and Game has conducted disease surveillance in wildlife including ungulates and wolves. No evidence of this tapeworm, eggs, or larva was discovered until 2006.
◾In 2006, hydatid cysts were found in the lungs of a mountain goat from Atlanta, ID. The adult tapeworm was also first found in the intestines of wolves in 2006.
◾During intensive surveillance between 2006 - 2010, hydatid cysts were found in the lungs of numerous deer and elk from central Idaho; and 62% of wolves tested were determined to be infected with the tapeworm.
◾Currently Idaho Fish and Game is:
◾Continuing its surveillance and investigations of this parasite.
◾Providing public education about this parasite.
◾Coordinating with Idaho State Department of Agriculture and the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare to provide information about this parasite to veterinarians, physicians and health care workers.
Post by: DoubleJ on March 25, 2014, 11:46:47 AM
So, if an elk or deer is infected, as long as I only eat the meat and not the organs, and since the cysts haven't passed through a carnivore and ended up in it's poop, I'm safe, right?
I don't feel safe telling you what to eat from an infected animal. Another concern is that you also protect the family dog from exposure to infected animals or their feces.
The infected moose liver I posted the photos of was destroyed. The moose meat was eaten by the hunter and his family, I just hope they cooked it all well done. I assume, but do not know for certain that cooking the meat well done makes it safe to eat.
We live in Shelton so no wolves around here yet. We almost lost the family dog to tape worms a couple of months ago. The dogs are house dogs and only go into our fenced dog run outside. My entire house has been 100% flea free for about 7 years now. The worms, from our best guess through days and days of research, came from the deer bones we gave them from our harvest. They would not have been exposed to them any other way. Since there was no risk of exposure, or so we thought, we never thought to worm them.
The old dog went WAY downhill. I had an emergency help thread on here a few months ago about it. He pooped and I saw worm segments in his poop. Come to find out, he had so many worms in him that he had become severely anemic and almost died from it. We wormed him and within 48 hours he had turned around. Deer bones will now be thrown out with the hide from now on. Meat has been fine. Based on the scare we had, I had myself and the boys checked at the doctor and we were worm free.
Post by: AspenBud on March 25, 2014, 12:15:49 PM
My point has been dont minimize the opinion of experienced people. They have a lot to offer and in some subjects they know more than the people publishing stuff on the Internet.
That's why you would like to discredit veterinarians and their "big fancy titles," education, and the literally thousands of animals they see every year?
No one is denying that you should be careful of parasites. But this one is not any bigger a deal than any other. You cook meat thoroughly for a reason, you wash your hands for a reason, and so on. This is common sense stuff tapeworm or no tapeworm and it has been given for decades for a reason.
You are in much greater danger of getting nailed with e. coli or trichinosis from meat at the grocery store and that isn't going to change any time soon.
Post by: AspenBud on March 25, 2014, 12:22:23 PM
So, if an elk or deer is infected, as long as I only eat the meat and not the organs, and since the cysts haven't passed through a carnivore and ended up in it's poop, I'm safe, right?
I don't feel safe telling you what to eat from an infected animal. Another concern is that you also protect the family dog from exposure to infected animals or their feces.
The infected moose liver I posted the photos of was destroyed. The moose meat was eaten by the hunter and his family, I just hope they cooked it all well done. I assume, but do not know for certain that cooking the meat well done makes it safe to eat.
We live in Shelton so no wolves around here yet. We almost lost the family dog to tape worms a couple of months ago. The dogs are house dogs and only go into our fenced dog run outside. My entire house has been 100% flea free for about 7 years now. The worms, from our best guess through days and days of research, came from the deer bones we gave them from our harvest. They would not have been exposed to them any other way. Since there was no risk of exposure, or so we thought, we never thought to worm them.
The old dog went WAY downhill. I had an emergency help thread on here a few months ago about it. He pooped and I saw worm segments in his poop. Come to find out, he had so many worms in him that he had become severely anemic and almost died from it. We wormed him and within 48 hours he had turned around. Deer bones will now be thrown out with the hide from now on. Meat has been fine. Based on the scare we had, I had myself and the boys checked at the doctor and we were worm free.
I have a friend whose dogs regularly kill and eat rabbits that make it through the fencing around his house. He deworms them every time it happens because as sure as the sun rises they will otherwise come down with tapeworms after doing this.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 25, 2014, 12:31:48 PM
Post by: RG on March 25, 2014, 12:44:42 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 25, 2014, 12:50:05 PM
Wolf lover, you're talking about e. granulosus as if it's no big deal. You're lying to yourself and everyone else. It is a big deal. If these were naturally occurring wolves, such as the ones which used to live in WA, I would maybe agree with you. But they aren't. They were brought in from Canada and they were sick when they were brought in. They were supposed to be disease-free as part of the requirements for introducing animals into the ecosystem. Science was manipulated to import these eaters into our state and lies were told, and you're OK with that. These veterinarians that you hold so dear for their knowledge let their zeal for wolves, like yours, dictate what they told us. They should be stripped of their ability to practice and criminally tried for breaking the law by lying to Congress to achieve their goals.FAQ FROM IDFG Website on this issue:
Were wolves examined and treated for Echinococcus granulosus before they were released in Idaho?
All wolves captured in Canada for relocation to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho were sampled for disease (blood, feces and external parasites) and treated twice for lice (Ivermectin and pyrethrin), roundworms (Ivermectin), and tapeworms (Praziquantel).
Does not appear your statements are accurate piano. :dunno:
I think the issue some have with this subject is that there are a lot of diseases/parasites etc. one can get and the attention this one is given is probably not proportional to its risk to humans...e.g, anti-wolf fringe often drum it up as some kind of epidemic...just like they do with respect to effects of wolves on other issues. It is good to be aware of this tapeworm and practice good hygiene if you are a hunter...wdfw should get something on their website like IDFG...even a link would suffice...then we can all be happy right? :chuckle:
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 25, 2014, 01:03:47 PM
Wolf lover, you're talking about e. granulosus as if it's no big deal. You're lying to yourself and everyone else. It is a big deal. If these were naturally occurring wolves, such as the ones which used to live in WA, I would maybe agree with you. But they aren't. They were brought in from Canada and they were sick when they were brought in. They were supposed to be disease-free as part of the requirements for introducing animals into the ecosystem. Science was manipulated to import these eaters into our state and lies were told, and you're OK with that. These veterinarians that you hold so dear for their knowledge let their zeal for wolves, like yours, dictate what they told us. They should be stripped of their ability to practice and criminally tried for breaking the law by lying to Congress to achieve their goals.FAQ FROM IDFG Website on this issue:
Were wolves examined and treated for Echinococcus granulosus before they were released in Idaho?
All wolves captured in Canada for relocation to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho were sampled for disease (blood, feces and external parasites) and treated twice for lice (Ivermectin and pyrethrin), roundworms (Ivermectin), and tapeworms (Praziquantel).
Does not appear your statements are accurate piano. :dunno:
I think the issue some have with this subject is that there are a lot of diseases/parasites etc. one can get and the attention this one is given is probably not proportional to its risk to humans...e.g, anti-wolf fringe often drum it up as some kind of epidemic...just like they do with respect to effects of wolves on other issues. It is good to be aware of this tapeworm and practice good hygiene if you are a hunter...wdfw should get something on their website like IDFG...even a link would suffice...then we can all be happy right? :chuckle:
Your post actually shores up my point. They were aware of the parasites and allowed them in anyway. That's obvious from the fact they were treating them in the first place. That's not supposed to be how it works. Relocated wildlife is supposed to be free of disease and parasites which might affect the native wildlife negatively. That's why the testing and quarantine period is so long. And yet, they brought them in anyway. And the risk to humans is only a minute part of the equation. Ungulates, pets, livestock are all affected by it.
Post by: JLS on March 25, 2014, 01:13:16 PM
Post by: AspenBud on March 25, 2014, 01:20:21 PM
Wolf lover, you're talking about e. granulosus as if it's no big deal. You're lying to yourself and everyone else. It is a big deal. If these were naturally occurring wolves, such as the ones which used to live in WA, I would maybe agree with you. But they aren't. They were brought in from Canada and they were sick when they were brought in. They were supposed to be disease-free as part of the requirements for introducing animals into the ecosystem. Science was manipulated to import these eaters into our state and lies were told, and you're OK with that. These veterinarians that you hold so dear for their knowledge let their zeal for wolves, like yours, dictate what they told us. They should be stripped of their ability to practice and criminally tried for breaking the law by lying to Congress to achieve their goals.
Babble..babble...babble...that's all I see here.
Even if the wolf was never reintroduced and e. granulosus never ever existed here before you would still have to be careful when handling game, deworm your dogs, and make sure they don't eat or roll in other canines' poop. The threat of parasites is not going to go away even if wolves and e. granulosus does.
You are making a mountain out of a dung hill when there are MANY better arguments against wolves. I know a raft of veterinarians and I've asked many of them about this worm and to a person they don't blink and say don't eat wolf poop, wash your hands, and keep fido away from dead animals and poop.
I'm really sick of fellow sportsmen buying into garbage like this or spreading around crazy conspiracy theories. It makes us all look foolish and crazy.
Post by: Bob33 on March 25, 2014, 01:29:33 PM
Maybe TSA should have done full cavity searches on them before they cleared security. >:(:yike:
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 01:37:31 PM
WSU tests show a 62% infection rate in the Idaho wolves that were tested. Wolves are moving into WA/OR from Idaho. It is almost certain that many of these wolves are carrying EG. It's time for WDFW to quit supporting the wolfer's agenda that wolves do not carry these parasites or present any risk.
Like Idaho is doing now, WDFW should inform the public how they can avoid Echinococcus granulosus, rather than ignoring or downplaying the potential dangers.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 25, 2014, 01:39:58 PM
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 01:43:40 PM
What is the proper level of notification/education vs. the risk?
I'll address the constructive portion of your post:
WDFW should have a warning on their website and in the hunting regulations warning hunters, trappers, ranchers, taxidermists, and other higher risk groups of the prevelance, potential dangers, and how to avoid infection by Echinococcus granulosus.
The warning on the WDFW site makes sense to the extent that there is a risk of transmission. Speaking of that risk, you've provided a lot of information on this thread about EG, but one piece of information that has eluded me for a while now is how many confirmed cases in humans have there been in the NRM over the last 15 years? How about Alaska or Canada? I have not found that information yet.
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 01:45:28 PM
Northway. Im amused at your summation of my comments. I agree with Bearpaw about notifying the public. My point has been dont minimize the opinion of experienced people. They have a lot to offer and in some subjects they know more than the people publishing stuff on the Internet. Their opinion about liver cysts is accurate, they are a new thing. Clearly that offended you but I've found it to be true.
Don't worry RG, I'm not offended.
Post by: AspenBud on March 25, 2014, 02:24:33 PM
What is the proper level of notification/education vs. the risk?
I'll address the constructive portion of your post:
WDFW should have a warning on their website and in the hunting regulations warning hunters, trappers, ranchers, taxidermists, and other higher risk groups of the prevelance, potential dangers, and how to avoid infection by Echinococcus granulosus.
The warning on the WDFW site makes sense to the extent that there is a risk of transmission. Speaking of that risk, you've provided a lot of information on this thread about EG, but one piece of information that has eluded me for a while now is how many confirmed cases in humans have there been in the NRM over the last 15 years? How about Alaska or Canada? I have not found that information yet.
Don't forget Minnesota, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 02:32:26 PM
What is the proper level of notification/education vs. the risk?
I'll address the constructive portion of your post:
WDFW should have a warning on their website and in the hunting regulations warning hunters, trappers, ranchers, taxidermists, and other higher risk groups of the prevelance, potential dangers, and how to avoid infection by Echinococcus granulosus.
The warning on the WDFW site makes sense to the extent that there is a risk of transmission. Speaking of that risk, you've provided a lot of information on this thread about EG, but one piece of information that has eluded me for a while now is how many confirmed cases in humans have there been in the NRM over the last 15 years? How about Alaska or Canada? I have not found that information yet.
Keep in mind that it can take a decade or more to realize that you are infected. There are two recent cases in Idaho. I have posted info about one case in the wolf board in the past but cannot seem to find it. If I remember correctly these people are trying to stay out of the public eye.
Alaska has more incidents most likely because natives live closely with their dogs.
http://www.epi.alaska.gov/bulletins/docs/b2003_02.pdf (http://www.epi.alaska.gov/bulletins/docs/b2003_02.pdf)
Quote
Lifecycle and Pathogenesis
Echinococcus spp. lifecycles may involve many different hosts (Figure 1). In Alaska, intermediate hosts for E. granulosus are
moose or caribou, and for E. multilocularis, voles. For either species of Echinococcus, canids – whether pets or wild animals
such as foxes or wolves – serve as definitive hosts. Canids are infected by eating echinococcal cysts from intermediate host
viscera. Humans are infected by ingesting eggs that are shed in the feces of infected canids.
Once ingested, eggs hatch and release embryos into the small intestine that penetrate the mucosa and disseminate throughout
the body via venous and lymphatic systems. Embryos typically lodge in liver or lungs, forming cysts that enlarge concentrically
and can attain large sizes before becoming symptomatic or being diagnosed. Cysts may rupture and, if in the lung, are sometimes expectorated; or, if in the abdomen, may seed surrounding tissues resulting in the development of secondary cysts.
Quote
Human Cases in Alaska
Since the 1950s, over 300 cases of echinococcosis were reported to the Section of Epidemiology. Most cases were among persons from St. Lawrence Island or other rural parts of the State. Data have been summarized elsewhere.1,2,4
Since 1990, only eight cases of E. granulosus and no cases of E. multilocularis have been reported. Because cases may be asymptomatic, the actual number of infections could be higher. Of the eight cases reported, the average age of patients was 35
years (range 13-97 years). Half of the patients were female, and 63% (5 of 8) were Alaska Native. Four cases were reported in
Anchorage/Mat-Su Boroughs; two in the northwestern region of Alaska; and one each in the interior and southeastern regions.
Recommendations
1. Human echinococcosis is a sporadic disease in Alaska. The best method of preventing infection is by interrupting the
parasite’s lifecycle.
ź Wash hands well after contact with dogs or items that may
be contaminated with dog feces.
ź Prevent dogs from eating viscera of potentially infected
animals.
ź Meat from hoofstock infected with Echinococcus is safe to eat; cook thoroughly and avoid eating organs with cysts.
· Infections in dogs can be treated with praziquantel.
2. Echinococcosis is a reportable public health condition for healthcare providers and laboratories. Reports can be made directly to the Section of Epidemiology at (907) 269-8000 during business hours and (800) 478-0084 after hours. Epidemiology can also facilitate submission of diagnostic specimens to CDC.
more info: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274497/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274497/)
Quote
Echinococcosis-associated deaths from 1990 through 2007 were identified from multiple-cause-coded death records and were combined with US census data to calculate mortality rates. A total of 41 echinococcosis-associated deaths occurred over the 18-year study period.
Quote
The majority of echinococcosis-related deaths (35, 85%) occurred in persons over 35 years of age, with the highest rates noted in persons 85+ years. Echinococcus species was unspecified in 36 (88%) cases and was identified as E. granulosus and E. multilocularis in 3 (7%) and 2 (5%) cases, respectively. Site of infection was unspecified in 23 cases (56%), infection of liver and lung were recorded in 17 (42%) and 1 (2%) cases, respectively. Echinococcosis-related deaths fluctuated throughout the 18-year study period, ranging from 0–5 deaths annually, with 26 (63%) and 15 (37%) cases reported in the first and second halves of the study period, respectively. Twenty-three states reported echinococcosis-related fatalities, with California (9, 22%) having the highest number of deaths. A majority of echinococcosis-related deaths (30, 73%) occurred in foreign-born persons. Mean age at death differed slightly between foreign-born (57.9) and U.S.-born persons (64.5), and gender differences were observed (70% and 45% males, respectively).
Post by: kentrek on March 25, 2014, 03:16:43 PM
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 03:18:18 PM
I also wish they would post the mortality rate based on total infections as opposed to per capita.
Hispanics also appear to be disproportionately affected. I wish they would list what the occupations of victims were, and what the correlation is between those infected and their activities.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 25, 2014, 05:03:06 PM
Alaska has more incidents most likely because natives live closely with their dogs.
Geeze, you downplay the spread of tapeworms by dogs in Washington and blame it all on wolves, and then blame it on people living closely with their dogs in Alaska? Which is it?
Post by: idahohuntr on March 25, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
:yeah: One of my biggest annoyances on these wolf threads.Wolf lover, you're talking about e. granulosus as if it's no big deal. You're lying to yourself and everyone else. It is a big deal. If these were naturally occurring wolves, such as the ones which used to live in WA, I would maybe agree with you. But they aren't. They were brought in from Canada and they were sick when they were brought in. They were supposed to be disease-free as part of the requirements for introducing animals into the ecosystem. Science was manipulated to import these eaters into our state and lies were told, and you're OK with that. These veterinarians that you hold so dear for their knowledge let their zeal for wolves, like yours, dictate what they told us. They should be stripped of their ability to practice and criminally tried for breaking the law by lying to Congress to achieve their goals.
Babble..babble...babble...that's all I see here.
Even if the wolf was never reintroduced and e. granulosus never ever existed here before you would still have to be careful when handling game, deworm your dogs, and make sure they don't eat or roll in other canines' poop. The threat of parasites is not going to go away even if wolves and e. granulosus does.
You are making a mountain out of a dung hill when there are MANY better arguments against wolves. I know a raft of veterinarians and I've asked many of them about this worm and to a person they don't blink and say don't eat wolf poop, wash your hands, and keep fido away from dead animals and poop.
I'm really sick of fellow sportsmen buying into garbage like this or spreading around crazy conspiracy theories. It makes us all look foolish and crazy.
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 05:33:54 PM
Alaska has more incidents most likely because natives live closely with their dogs.
Geeze, you downplay the spread of tapeworms by dogs in Washington and blame it all on wolves, and then blame it on people living closely with their dogs in Alaska? Which is it?
If you read any of the info it says that all canines can be hosts. I am concerned because wolves in ID/MT were tested by WSU and have a 62/63% infection rate and wolves travel hundreds of miles cross country leaving feces all along the way which can widely spread the parasite, thus Washington may soon become a black area on the Stanford University map. Many people worm their dogs, but who is worming all of the wolves?
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 05:51:32 PM
Alaska has more incidents most likely because natives live closely with their dogs.
Geeze, you downplay the spread of tapeworms by dogs in Washington and blame it all on wolves, and then blame it on people living closely with their dogs in Alaska? Which is it?
If you read any of the info it says that all canines can be hosts. I am concerned because wolves in ID/MT were tested by WSU and have a 62/63% infection rate and wolves travel hundreds of miles cross country leaving feces all along the way which can widely spread the parasite, thus Washington may soon become a black area on the Stanford University map. Many people worm their dogs, but who is worming all of the wolves?
Do you have any thoughts on why the distribution of Echinococcosis on the Stanford map excludes California compared to the Echinococcosis mortality study you provided a link to which states that 25% of the Ech. deaths reported in the United States occurred in California? Here is another distribution map which has some differences:
http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2045672_1752-1947-1-93-1&req=4 (http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2045672_1752-1947-1-93-1&req=4)
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 05:57:48 PM
Alaska has more incidents most likely because natives live closely with their dogs.
Geeze, you downplay the spread of tapeworms by dogs in Washington and blame it all on wolves, and then blame it on people living closely with their dogs in Alaska? Which is it?
If you read any of the info it says that all canines can be hosts. I am concerned because wolves in ID/MT were tested by WSU and have a 62/63% infection rate and wolves travel hundreds of miles cross country leaving feces all along the way which can widely spread the parasite, thus Washington may soon become a black area on the Stanford University map. Many people worm their dogs, but who is worming all of the wolves?
Do you have any thoughts on why the distribution of Echinococcosis on the Stanford map excludes California compared to the Echinococcosis mortality study you provided a link to which states that 25% of the Ech. deaths reported in the United States occurred in California? Here is another distribution map which has some differences:
http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2045672_1752-1947-1-93-1&req=4 (http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2045672_1752-1947-1-93-1&req=4)
I going to suggest that it's likely the minor differences in the maps are indicative of the findings by the person(s) doing the research to create each map. The maps are actually very similar.
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 05:59:28 PM
Didn't the OR-7 wolf travel down through OR into California? Maybe someone was checking his scat? :chuckle:
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 06:18:03 PM
This is meant to be a joke.....
Didn't the OR-7 wolf travel down through OR into California? Maybe someone was checking his scat? :chuckle:
While I don't think the risk for EG is high enough to do a lot more than make outdoor folks aware of it's presence and transmission, I'll admit that the awareness of it has struck me once or twice.
I probably stumbled into the vicinity of the Teanaway pack den site a couple of years ago and there was wolf scat everywhere. I likely kicked a turd or two and may or may not have thought enough about it to soak the soles of my boots my boots and given them a cleaning. 8)
I've always been a closet hypochondriac though..........
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 06:25:49 PM
A rancher who's stockdog follows him around the range checking fences or checking cattle faces the same high risk of contracting the disease from sniffing an infected wolf fece. Taxidermists handling wolf hides are also high risk as are vets who handle lots of pets in areas where the parasite becomes established.
I'm sure there are other high risk scenarios, just trying to show reasons for concern.
Post by: KFhunter on March 25, 2014, 06:28:02 PM
Post by: Northway on March 25, 2014, 06:38:10 PM
My son and I are both very concerned since we are in wolf country often and our hounds are tracking cats with their noses to the ground over miles of countryside. As I mentioned he has small children who like to play with the dogs.
A rancher who's stockdog follows him around the range checking fences or checking cattle faces the same high risk of contracting the disease from sniffing an infected wolf fece. Taxidermists handling wolf hides are also high risk as are vets who handle lots of pets in areas where the parasite becomes established.
I'm sure there are other high risk scenarios, just trying to show reasons for concern.
That's why I was lamenting that there wasn't more information in the studies you referenced.
I have a curious personality and the first thing I wonder is first and foremost, how many individuals get infected in any given area - then what types of activities are those individuals engaging in.
Is an Argentinian shepard in Utah at a higher risk than a casual hunter in Idaho? Is a wolf biologist at a higher risk than an outfitter? If so, then why? How many cases can be traced back to the consumption of properly cooked game meats?
What EG shares with other parasites & viruses with a very low infection rate is a lack of proper statistical analysis.
Post by: bearpaw on March 25, 2014, 07:15:46 PM
My son and I are both very concerned since we are in wolf country often and our hounds are tracking cats with their noses to the ground over miles of countryside. As I mentioned he has small children who like to play with the dogs.
A rancher who's stockdog follows him around the range checking fences or checking cattle faces the same high risk of contracting the disease from sniffing an infected wolf fece. Taxidermists handling wolf hides are also high risk as are vets who handle lots of pets in areas where the parasite becomes established.
I'm sure there are other high risk scenarios, just trying to show reasons for concern.
That's why I was lamenting that there wasn't more information in the studies you referenced.
I have a curious personality and the first thing I wonder is first and foremost, how many individuals get infected in any given area - then what types of activities are those individuals engaging in.
Is an Argentinian shepard in Utah at a higher risk than a casual hunter in Idaho? Is a wolf biologist at a higher risk than an outfitter? If so, then why? How many cases can be traced back to the consumption of properly cooked game meats?
What EG shares with other parasites & viruses with a very low infection rate is a lack of proper statistical analysis.
I am pretty sure eating meat of infected animals is not much danger, especially if cooked well done, all data seems to point at avoiding the eggs in the feces and the infected organs. However, these eggs in the feces can be spread onto foliage and even into water. If a dog gets infected then a human walking through the yard could bring eggs into a home where young children play on the floor. Since data suggests that it may take 10 years or longer to learn of a cyst, who knows how many people may become infected before the problem is known.
This a problem that other countries are working to eliminate yet our states are ignoring the problem as if no danger exists. I'm glad to see that Idaho has now published a page on this so people can learn and be more careful. I have learned more just finding data to post in this topic.
Post by: KFhunter on March 25, 2014, 07:54:35 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.negativepregnancytest.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2FPregnancy-Test-Accuracy.png&hash=5af9d82db75cff090adafea0e943fa4c423c856c)
Post by: JLS on March 25, 2014, 07:56:47 PM
Good luck trying to crap on the end of one of those....
White squiggly lines = infected
Post by: bearpaw on March 26, 2014, 09:19:55 AM
:yike:
Good luck trying to crap on the end of one of those....
White squiggly lines = infected
Just insert into north end of southbound wolf, wait 60 seconds and remove from wolf. :chuckle: