Post by: jongosch on May 16, 2014, 09:04:50 PM
So no surprise, but WDFW has failed to inform the public that there is a PUBLIC Elk Hoof Disease Meeting this coming Wednesday, May 21st from 1-4pm at the Cowlitz County Museum Meeting Room. That's at 405 Allen St., Kelso, WA.
This one will be different from the last few in Longview, Cathlamet and Chehalis. On this occasion the entire Working Group should be on hand and they will be discussing their progress (laughter break) since the last meeting in February. Along with a half dozen WDFW officials we can expect there to be reps from Weyerhaeuser and DNR, a smattering of scientists, County Commissioners James Misner and Dan Cothren, former Commissioner Axel Swanson, and citizen Mark Smith who has spearheaded much of the campaign to properly investigate elk hoof disease.
Members of the public will have three minutes apiece to address the Working Group and I encourage you guys to get up and speak on whatever topics you're really burning about. I doubt WDFW is expecting many of us to show so it would be great to sort of ambush them and be relentless with our questions. Also, some good people from the Washington Forest Law Center will be there as well as a well-known journalist fresh on this case. It would be great if you all could impress them with your passion, knowledge and desire to see something done.
We're getting close, guys. So take the afternoon off from work if you can and ask some tough questions.
Lastly, here's a new video about elk hoof disease that just came out today: http://koin.com/2014/05/16/hoof-rot-continues-to-plague-elk-in-washington/ (http://koin.com/2014/05/16/hoof-rot-continues-to-plague-elk-in-washington/)
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on May 16, 2014, 09:18:11 PM
Post by: t6 on May 17, 2014, 09:00:24 AM
Be prepared to ask questions even if they don't want to give you answers.
Post by: bbarnes on May 18, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 18, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 19, 2014, 10:28:05 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on May 19, 2014, 10:59:20 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 19, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
Post by: bbarnes on May 21, 2014, 07:07:55 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 21, 2014, 08:04:41 AM
Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 02:01:27 PM
Jonker is presenting her powerpoint presentation. They seem to be ignoring studies that have been presented to them by various groups. Claiming theres is no evidence of toxicicty but also admit they have not tested any of the samples for toxic chemicals. It would make sense that you can only find it if your looking for it. They are not. Is it neglect or ignorance?
Jonker claimed that the elk in the effected areas are not showing any signs of diminshed nutrition despite studies to the contrary.
More to follow as the meeting goes along.
Post by: bobcat on May 21, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Curly on May 21, 2014, 02:51:30 PM
Although, they don't even seem to be all that concerned now..........maybe they are, but the impression is that they don't really seem to care. They turned down help from RMEF a couple years ago and turned down help from a Dr. with very good credentials; the result is an image of a lack of concern. These public meetings just seem like lip service from WDFW.........I hate meetings; I'd rather they were out doing some work instead of meeting about it. :bash:
Post by: fair-chase on May 21, 2014, 04:55:07 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 21, 2014, 04:57:49 PM
Dr. Mora was there and the DFW has finally invited him to attend a working meeting at the DFW in early June. If you recall, he's the CDC specialist with pretty vast experience regarding leptospirosis. He thinks that's what this is. Krystal Davies was also there and has done extensive research which indicates that herbicides are a major player in this. She's a farrier from Cathlamet I believe, and also believes that leptospirosis is part of this.
About 10 or 12 of us had comments. My own had to do with something that Dr. Jonker said which really struck a chord - that they'd cut off 30 permits in two different units for a couple of years because of declining elk populations and when the "agricultural producers" there asked to have them reinstated, the state did so. Wildlife management through landowner wishes. I also asked them how they can claim the meat is safe when they also claim they don't know what the disease is. No answer.
It seems to me that the pressure being bore down upon the DFW is actually having them forced to start looking at things they don't want to - timber company culpability in all this. We need to continue to keep up the pressure. I'll leave more to be said by BBarnes and jongosch. They're animals, both of them. They've done an incredible amount of work on this.
PMan
Post by: bobcat on May 21, 2014, 05:01:03 PM
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Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 05:48:46 PM
The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues. Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass.
They admit they have not studied for the presence of toxins in the elk in lab studies because their cell structure does not seem to show signs of toxicity. (You can't find something if your not looking for it) Additionally there has been no efforts to ask for a voluntary moratorium on the use of herbicides.
Despite admissions that they do not know what it is at this time, they have a proposed plan for containing and possible treatment of the effected elk. (Wasted energy if you still don't know what your dealing with.) They seem to reject any notion that it could be anything other than Treponema Bacteria. (That's it, and were gonna make it fit attitude) They fail to believe that it could be something else and that the Hoof Overgrowth is simply a symptom of something or many somethings involved.
They finally discussed studding live animals however this brings up concerns that in a live study the animals may not forage or be sprayed with the same immunotoxins currently being sprayed by the timber companies. This could skew the study significantly and since they are single minded, their control of the study could cause false results to be pushed into their single theory.
They also discussed budget for further study and have applied for additional budget. That 200 k budget will be spent on another WDFW Director. They rejected a proposal to have the new Director be independent from WDFW. The also rejected the notion that additional studies be done by independent groups outside of WDFW.
They didn't seem to like the idea that there needs to be more transparency in their 'cough" efforts, or that they were told that many do not have and trust in the WDFW administration.
Sorry, there was so much more. I know others will be doing additional stories. Koin 6 was there as well as a reporter from the Yakima Herald. I'm sure they and others will be posting additional information when they have time to finish some more polished stories.
Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 07:15:56 PM
Post by: blackdog on May 21, 2014, 08:09:29 PM
Post by: kentrek on May 21, 2014, 08:12:24 PM
It was disappointing to hear attacks on archery hunting by fellow hunters today. :yike:
:dunno: whats archery have to do with hoof rot
Post by: blackdog on May 21, 2014, 08:21:16 PM
Post by: bbarnes on May 21, 2014, 09:58:55 PM
Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 10:10:54 PM
I will post some other links that also provide information.
Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 10:13:06 PM
www.gu.se/digitalAssets/1300/1300501_Leptospirosis_100303_final.pdf (http://www.gu.se/digitalAssets/1300/1300501_Leptospirosis_100303_final.pdf)
Post by: t6 on May 21, 2014, 10:26:34 PM
Maybe Jongosch can post a link or submit it. Jon?
Post by: jongosch on May 22, 2014, 12:11:48 AM
Herbicides Linked to Chemically Induced Endocrinopathic Laminitis in Elk:
Authored by Krystal Davies
Edited by Jon Gosch
I believe I understand why the elk in southwest Washington are being affected by the mysterious hoof disease, namely hoof rot. I have credible evidence and can provide a diagnosis, source of disease, a detailed route and manifestation of the pathogen, as well as a cure. My findings also link Leptospirosis, Treponema Pallidum, numerous other bacterial infections, and the use of pesticides and herbicides into one, highly interconnected, evidence based theory. The hepatic selenium and copper deficiencies discovered by Washington State University will also play an important role in returning the elk to a healthy state. My findings suggest that all of the current theories presented play an important role in the health of our local elk herds.
First, a little about myself. I am a farrier and have been studying equine hooves for over a decade. I specialize in the treatment and prevention of pathologies, including laminitis. Currently my efforts are being steered toward the local elk. But this runs deeper and a little more personal for me and my family. I have been controlling for known causes of hoof diseases in my own personal horses. However, since moving my little herd to Mt. Pleasant, in Cowlitz County, I’ve noticed a steady decline in their hoof health. They are showing subclinical signs of laminitis. This has led me to dig deeper into the situation and eventually brought me to research the local elk’s mysterious hoof disease. In my opinion the elk are being affected by the same thing as my horses as the signs and symptoms are strikingly identical to laminitis.
Laminitis can be defined as the failure of the attachment between the bone and the inner hoof wall. However, laminitis itself is a misnomer, as the disease was named and the applied definition was widely used before we truly understood what happens during an episode of laminitis. There is a lot more going on than simply inflammation of the lamina structure and failure of attachment between the bone and inner hoof wall. The entire hoof capsule is unnaturally affected, resulting in catastrophic failure of hoof-to-bone attachment.
One of the earliest clinical signs of laminitis, which often go unnoticed, are “hoof rings.” Though not always present, they are ridges running horizontally on the outer hoof wall. This is a sign of metabolic stress. Another early sign is reoccurring hoof abscessing. A stretched and/or detached lamina occurs when the hoof capsule begins to break away from the inner structures. This is seen from the profile view as a diverging toe angle, although in some cases the diverging toe angle is no longer present because the separation has advanced all the way to the coronary band. This can also be seen from the supine view as a stretched and/or detached white line. There is less sole concavity giving the appearance of a “dropped bony column.” If left without natural trimming (by man or through natural movement), the hoof horn will continue to grow far longer than natural lengths. This is because at a certain point the sole of the animal is more distal than the weight bearing walls, preventing natural wear. Also, the weakest point becomes the laminar attachment. Rather than wearing the hoof horn through natural movement, the laminar either tears away or stretches. This is why we often see the extra wall length and diverging toe angle.
Other common signs of laminitis include inflammation and sometimes heat in the lower limb. Long term effects include grossly distorted hoof growth causing unnatural weight bearing, which eventually results in arthritis. Resistant bacteria, fungus and/or yeast infections are also very common to see throughout the entire process. Symptoms consist of acute and chronic weight-bearing pain. Oftentimes the animal will decrease movement, lie down, unnaturally shift and bear weight, or even avoid use of affected limb(s) altogether. Animals can be kept in the various stages of laminitis for years without advancing, but the final stage is hoof slough, where the entire hoof falls off. Laminitis in itself is not generally fatal, but often domestic horses in advanced stages of the disease are euthanized to prevent further pain and suffering. Due to decreased mobility the undomesticated animal may starve or be especially prone to predators and hoof infection, eventually leading to mortality.
Laminitis has many triggers. Episodes are commonly caused by consumption of non-specie specific food, hormone imbalances, wormers, vaccinations, herbicides and pesticides, and other toxins. Mechanical forces do play a part in the physical distortion seen during laminitis, but only after the lamina, and other areas of the hoof, have been weakened from internal triggers. We see laminitis in large and small hoofed species; however, it is important to note that smaller animals generally are able to carry themselves while a larger animal, at the same phase of the condition, may not have the ability to do so.
While there are many different categories of laminitis, they are generally categorized by how it is caused, not their effects in the hoof. In endocrinopathic laminitis, we see a spike in the secretion of the hormones adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), and in response to ACTH, the adrenal gland secretes extra cortisol (hyperadrenocorticism), the physiological glucocorticoid (GC) class of hormones. The increased levels of GCs interact with catecholamine hormones, which then act as a vasoconstrictor in the digital arteries, interfering with lamina perfusion within the hoof capsule, thus resulting in laminitis. In 2004, several experts from the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Missouri published a paper entitled Endocrinopathic Laminitis in the Horse which explains how any changes or alterations to interacting hormones pose a great risk of causing endocrinopathic laminitis.
Additionally, in 2009 the Oxford Journal published a collaborative study looking at the effects of herbicides and metabolites on Wistar rats. Chlorotriazine Herbicides and Metabolites Activate an ACTH-dependent Release of Corticosterone in Male Wistar Rats. From this study researchers found that one of the most common chemicals used during Weyerhaeuser herbicide spraying, Atrazine (ATR), significantly raises plasma ACTH, corticosterone (in the GC class of hormones), progesterone, and estrogens. Other herbicides and metabolites were also found to significantly raise ACTH, such as the herbicides Simazine (SIM), Propazine (PRO), and Metabolites Deisopropylatrazine (DIA), and Deethylatrazine (DEA). All of these are also reported to significantly disrupt the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis. The researchers wrote that, “Significant increases of plasma ACTH were observed within 15 min, following exposure to ATR, SIM, PRO, DIA, or DEA. Dose-dependent elevations in CORT and progesterone were also observed at 15 and 30 min post-dosing with these compounds indicating an activation of adrenal steroidogenesis (78).” The study includes many other harmful effects such as reproductive and sexual maturity complications which are widely informative for environmental and wildlife purposes.
Linking the two findings, it is clear that the use of any chemical that raises ACTH will directly increase the class of GC hormones which often causes a chemically induced endocrinopathic laminitis. This is the formal diagnosis I am giving these elk. It is also critical to note that exposure to toxic chemicals is likely only one way the elk are currently developing laminitis. Chemicals can also affect the gastrointestinal track which can eventually lead to laminitis as well. Any matter ingested that disturbs the naturally balanced intestinal microorganisms is at risk for causing laminitis
The use of toxic herbicides may also be leading to the mineral deficiencies reported in the affected elk. Whether the chemicals are causing a deficiency through eradicating natural mineral sources, or because laminitis is inhibiting natural herd movement which prevents the elk from accessing natural occurring minerals is not yet understood. But this information will be important to return the elk back to health.
Gaining access to the current use of chemicals and all ingredients used in the area will be a critical first step to cure this hoof disease. Many other chemicals and unnatural influences cause laminitis by affecting other areas of the species. Therefore, it is important to access a list of all chemicals and ingredients being used on the environment by Weyerhaeuser.
A 2011 article from the University of Siena in Italy demonstrates how dangerous these herbicides can be once they are mixed with other coformulants. In Saccharomyces cerevisiae as a Tool to Evaluate the Effects of Herbicides on Eukaryotic Life, the authors explain that, “Typically, pure herbicide molecules are of limited value to end users. To give them practical value and make them usable, most herbicides are combined with appropriate solvents or surfactants to obtain a formulation. A given chemical may be formulated in a variety of differing formulations and sold under different trade names. For this reason, pure AIs [active ingredients] are mixed with coformulants, also called ‘inert’ or auxiliary substances, to allow their use in common and convenient vehicles, such as water, and to obtain uniform and effective distributions. Several substances fall within the definition of coformulant, including: carrier substances, solvents, surfactants, dispersing agents, adhesives, absorption-promoting agents, antioxidants, bactericides, dyes, fillers, and perfumes. Coformulants can have various technical and physico/chemical properties in relation to their function in the pesticide formulation. These chemicals can be expected to have various toxicological profiles, some of them harmless (e.g., water) and some with serious toxicological properties (e.g., the organic solvent isophorone, which is a suspected carcinogen). Because coformulants represent the highest amount in pesticide mixtures, even a minor toxicological concern could become significant in relation to their use (Tobiassen et al., 2003) especially considering the fact that, besides being toxic themselves, they can also increase the toxic effects of AIs” (Daniela Braconi, Giulia Bernardini, and Lia Millucci, 24-25).
Being that many active ingredients have the potential to cause other complications, it would be critical to have access to such ingredients used by Weyerhaeuser. This area needs more investigation, but it is clear, chemicals are not natural to the species, and do negatively alter the health of the entire environment including the elk.
It is my belief that herbicides and pesticides are the root cause of the plummeting health in the free-roaming elk in southwest Washington. Atrazine being an “immunotoxic,” it inhibits the elk and other exposed species (human and domestic animals as well), from fighting off harmful bacteria and other communicable diseases they are routinely and naturally exposed to. It is my belief this is why we are finding widespread diseases such as Leptospirosis, T. Pallidum, and numerous other bacterial infections. If it isn’t these diseases, it will be the next ones that create another endemic. Simply treating for infectious diseases alone will not cure the animal; however, these diseases do grossly complicate the situation and weaken the animal to a greater extent.
All forms of laminitis are extremely difficult to treat in that it doesn’t respond well to medication, requires all laminitic triggers (and there are many) to be removed from the affected animal’s environment, and to get the animal moving in a natural way which requires restoring an environment natural to the specie. While there may be a few triggers causing such severe hoof pathology, it can take just one trigger to prevent complete healing.
The only known cure for chemically induced endocrinopathic laminitis is to cease the use of all chemicals, especially the ones which manipulate the endocrine system. Medical treatment will be ineffective for as long as the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis is disrupted, and is unnecessary once HPG axis is restored back to normal. It will take time to rid the environment of such chemicals, but until this time, the elk will be kept in a laminitic state and will continue to digress.
Once all chemicals are cleaned from the environment, a onetime hoof trimming and application of White Lightning hoof treatment mixed with equal parts white vinegar will eliminate bacterial, fungal, and yeast infections including hoof rot, thrush, white line disease and other skin fungus. This will be helpful to get the elk moving in a more natural way and allow self trimming and natural healthy bacteria to inhabit the hoof from thereon after. Allowing the immune system to be restored will help keep the animal from being re-infected.
Treatment and vaccinating for Leptospirosis, T. Pallidum and other communicable disease creates a difficult situation because such treatments and vaccines can actually prolong or further laminitis in elk that are only in the beginning stages of the disease. The risks and benefits will need to be discussed.
One aspect of the cure that is in our favor is that these elk are already in their natural habitat. We do however need to restore the habitat to a natural healthy state as is often necessary with domesticated animals. Identifying what areas of the habitat need restoring will depend on fully understanding elk behavior, how they access minerals, necessary plant life and ensuring the ecosystem is restored to a state where it can manage itself once again.
It is my recommendation that controlled burning is used instead of chemically engineered herbicides and pesticides. Due to naturally occurring wild fires, the ecosystem is adapted to handle such burnings, but is destroyed by toxic chemicals.
I would also make a strong recommendation for people and domestic animals, especially horses to either stay away from infected areas, or at least avoid eating or drinking from contaminated sources. Local horses especially are at great risk.
References
Cox, Caroline. “Atrazine: Environmental Contamination and Ecological Effects.” Journal of Pesticide Reform 21.2 (2001): 12-20. Journal of Pesticide Reform. Web. 19 May 2014.
Daniela Braconi, Giulia Bernardini, Lia Millucci, Gabriella Jacomelli, Vanna Micheli and Annalisa Santucci (2011). Saccharomyces Cerevisiae as a Tool to Evaluate the Effects of Herbicides on Eukaryotic Life, Herbicides and Environment, Dr Andreas Kortekamp (Ed.), ISBN: 978-953-307-476-4, InTech, Available from: http://www.intechopen.com/books/herbicides-and-environment/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-as-a-tool-toevaluate-the-effects-of-herbicides-on-eukaryotic-life (http://www.intechopen.com/books/herbicides-and-environment/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-as-a-tool-toevaluate-the-effects-of-herbicides-on-eukaryotic-life)
Johnson, Philip J., Nat T. Messer, Simon H. Slight, Charles Wiedmeyer, Preston Buff, and Venkataseshu K. Ganjam. “Endocrinopathic Laminitis in the Horse.” Clinical Techniques in Equine Practice. N.p., n.d. Web. 19 May 2014. http://www.evz.ufg.br/uploads/66/original_laminite_eq_endocrino.pdf (http://www.evz.ufg.br/uploads/66/original_laminite_eq_endocrino.pdf)
Laws, Susan C., Michelle Hotchkiss, Janet Ferrell, Saro Jayaraman, Lesley Mills, Walker Modic, Nicole Tinfo, Melanie Fraites, Tammy Stoker, and Ralph Cooper. “Chlorotriazine Herbicides and Metabolites Activate an ACTH-dependent Release of Corticosterone in Male Wistar Rats.” Toxici.oxfordjournals.org 112.1 (2009): 78-87. Toxicological Sciences. Web. 19 May 2014.
Pollitt, Chris. “The School of Veterinary Science – Dr Christopher. C. Pollitt. BVsc. Ph.D.” The School of Veterinary Science – Dr Christopher. C. Pollitt. BVsc. Ph.D. N.p.; n.d. Web. 20 May 2014. <http://www.laminitisreserach.org/>.
Post by: jongosch on May 22, 2014, 12:20:50 AM
Kara Whittaker, PhD
Senior Scientist & Policy Analyst
Affiliation: Washington Forest Law Center
Address (email or street): kwhittaker@wflc.org
First, I’d like to voice my support for the hard work and dedication of resources by this Working Group towards the identification and management of this terrible disease. Second, I want to emphasize the importance of WDFW’s intended next steps to look at questions regarding the role of herbicides. I had the opportunity to review a preliminary report by Krystal Davies that provided a compelling line of reasoning linking herbicide ingestion with hoof disease. Ms. Davies has developed a set of practical management and treatment solutions that should be tested immediately. For example, ceasing herbicide spraying in areas of high elk density should aid in elk population recovery by simultaneously reducing their toxic load and improving their nutrition as their preferred forage becomes more abundant. Pursuing a rigorous study of the link between herbicides and hoof disease would ensure compliance with the intent of the Forest Practices regulations, namely “to regulate the handling, storage and application of chemicals in such a way that the public health, lands, fish, wildlife, aquatic habitat, wetland and riparian management zone vegetation will not be significantly damaged…Significant damage for purposes of this section includes any damage that would inhibit or preclude the existing vegetation from protecting public resources.” WAC 222-38-010(1). In this interest, please provide ample time during the next Working Group meeting for Ms. Davies to give a detailed presentation of her findings and recommendations. Finally, I urge WDFW to conduct toxicology tests of elk that are designed specifically to detect the active ingredients and metabolites of the herbicides being sprayed within the elks’ range. Thank you for your consideration.
Post by: HntnFsh on May 22, 2014, 05:56:45 AM
Unfortunately they seem to be driven to a preset goal! And I dont know if the can be persuaded to research this problem with an open mind.
Something I have been thinking of is. Is there a way to have an organized effort to approach the timber companies directly and try to persuade them to change, or even halt their spraying practices? I almost feel like that approach may be more succesful than trying to get WDFW to do the right thing. It may just be another dead end street. But who knows?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
Maybe Bruce Barnes can clarify what he was trying to say here? :hello:
I think maybe his words were not as carefully chosen as they might have been, but as an archer, I certainly understood what bbarnes was saying and took no offense. In the areas of affected elk, we should be monitoring herd strength carefully and a blanket pass for archers to shoot any elk should be examined in light of the disease and its impacts on the population. As I indicated by my comment to Dr. Jonker, it seems that the WDFW has embarked on a policy of wildlife management by the highest bidder, as opposed to management by sound wildlife principles and practices. It quite apparent that big timber has little regard for either the elk or any recreation opportunity for our residents. They care about timber profits, period.
As we move forward and the facts become known, it will be harder and harder for us to maintain the status quo with regards to herd management and it will be harder for the WDFW to pander to special interest and decide the fate of our wildlife and citizens based on pressure applied by those with bigger pockets than you and I.
Post by: Practical Approach on May 22, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
Post by: kentrek on May 22, 2014, 08:24:28 AM
This is all very interesting. Can anyone shed any light on why herbicides are potentially having a larger impact on elk in Southwest Washington state than on other timberlands up and down the west coast? Why aren't we seeing these problems in elk where the habitat is the same and timber management practices are the same?
Give it a few more years....but do we wana wait that long before we act ?? Look how far its spread in the last few years....
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 08:25:05 AM
Post by: whacker1 on May 22, 2014, 08:50:24 AM
Post by: IBspoiled on May 22, 2014, 09:29:13 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 09:34:53 AM
Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats. I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.
Your input at these meetings would be extremely valuable. And, I had no idea there was a wild horse herd around Silver Lake. It would be interesting to find out the effect on them. Thanks!
Post by: IBspoiled on May 22, 2014, 09:45:06 AM
I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass. Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening. I will try and find it. I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year. Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily. Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore. Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk. We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out. A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it. I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits. If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away.
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 09:54:44 AM
Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats. I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.
Do your animals suffer from hoof rot or laminitis? Do you give them selenium injections and/or supplement them with a trace mineral block?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 10:00:10 AM
The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues. Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass.
I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass. Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening. I will try and find it. I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year. Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily. Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore. Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk. We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out. A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it. I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits. If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away.
This WDFW position was actually challenged by one of the working group members yesterday. The biologist did a bit of a song and dance afterwards and tried to explain their position. It's hard to present facts that back up lies. You just end up sounding like a liar.
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 10:07:12 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 10:12:35 AM
Post by: IBspoiled on May 22, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats. I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.
Do your animals suffer from hoof rot or laminitis? Do you give them selenium injections and/or supplement them with a trace mineral block?
Our horses and goats have hoof rot, we treat it with http://www.spurrsbigfix.com/ (http://www.spurrsbigfix.com/) It seems to keep it manageable. Yes we do supplement them with selenium trace mineral blocks.
Post by: Practical Approach on May 22, 2014, 10:15:54 AM
Could you elaborate on the lies, the challenged position, etc.The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues. Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass.
I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass. Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening. I will try and find it. I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year. Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily. Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore. Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk. We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out. A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it. I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits. If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away.
This WDFW position was actually challenged by one of the working group members yesterday. The biologist did a bit of a song and dance afterwards and tried to explain their position. It's hard to present facts that back up lies. You just end up sounding like a liar.
Post by: Tbar on May 22, 2014, 10:24:42 AM
Single mindedness appears to be running both ways here. There may be many correlations here with herbicides and hoof disease. However, that does not mean there is a causative relationship. All anyone is doing right now is hypothesizing and to insinuate that any hypothesis is correct based on the anecdotal observations is meaningless.:yeah:
I have yet to see any "scientific" proof from either side of the aisle. I am not one to drink the Kool-aid from anybody but if forced I'd rather it was served by Jonker and Mansfield than Mora and Gosch.
I know we have a common goal but too many "hot leads" often are a detriment to finding a cause and or solution. :twocents:
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 10:28:17 AM
So what do you suggest, JLS? Should we ignore it and the science that points to herbicides as a probable cause? I'd be all for Weyerhauser stepping up and voluntarily fencing off a portion of their land to do a study, but somehow, they haven't showed their concern. There is a great deal of evidence that recognized experts are bringing forward. The largest elk herd in the state is in trouble. I'd like to hear your ideas on what we should do, if anything.
Where did I say we should ignore it? Drama much?
My point is that without controlled experiments, all anyone is doing is hypothesizing. We have a farrier hypothesizing that herbicides are leading to laminitis (which can be distinctly different than hoof rot). We have Dr. Mora who is hypothesizing that it is leptospirosis (which can be distinctly different than laminitis). We have an area that has severe trace mineral deficiencies.
Is the laminitis potentially causing the poor body condition because of ambulatory difficulties?
Is the poor body condition causing the laminitis because of nutritional deficiencies?
Is laminitis and poor body condition a result of herbicides?
Is laminitis and poor body condition caused by trace mineral deficiencies?
Is it even true laminitis, or is it an infectious hoof disease that is leading to laminitis because of tissue necrosis?
I could go on with a list of questions here. As much as anyone likes to jump on the most popular hypothesis and say "ah ha, that's it!", there are a number of questions that can be asked that would refute or dispell that hypothesis. It's been asked numerous times, if it's herbicides, why doesn't it manifest itself in other geographical areas?
I am not saying any one hypothesis is correct or incorrect. All I'm saying is that as much as you folks criticize the working group for being single minded in their approach, you're likely doing the same. There were three WSU veterinarians involved in the most recent hoof disease research. I think if it was as simple as laminitis associated with herbicides, they would be pretty dialed in on it right now. That is strictly my opinion.
No one needs Weyerhauser's cooperation. All of the experimental conditions can be created without them.
Post by: Practical Approach on May 22, 2014, 10:37:27 AM
You really can't find the working group at fault. The public working group meetings really don't allow for any constructive input. The agenda is pre determined by WDFW. If you noticed from yesterdays meeting that the working group sat there right along with the public and watched a slide show that laid out what WDFW was going to do. Any questions or comments from the work group were almost view as an interruption. If the work group were a true work group, they would be allowed to participate than give thumbs up or down to what the state is selling.
Post by: bobcat on May 22, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 10:52:41 AM
Herbicide use on forest lands is evil. Anything to put pressure on timber companies and governmental agencies to take a hard look at what they're doing on such a large scale with no clue as to what harm they may be doing to the environment and wildlife. :tup:
Herbicides can be detrimental in a lot more areas than just forest lands.
When I hunt pheasants, I can always tell the farmers who are "liberal" in their spraying. Their field eyebrows are a monoculture of grass and nothing else. I drive right by those and find the guy who only sprays his fields and leaves a variety of broadleaf forbes and weeds for cover.
Post by: Curly on May 22, 2014, 11:01:55 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on May 22, 2014, 11:14:38 AM
I think Weyco's cooperation is somewhat needed; they need to disclose exactly what chemicals......what doses, and what frequency they are spraying. Although, I'm sure they would just lie about it if they aren't meeting what is required by law as far as spraying goes, but hopefully they provide full disclosure. :twocents:Weyco has stated that they are required by DNR and Department of Ag. to disclose exactly what chemicals, doses, gallons per acre, frequency etc they are applying. They pay a permit fee to apply for the application license for each treatment and the records should be available for review if you request them from the regulating agencies.
Don't shoot the messenger, just reporting what I heard directly from Weyco.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 11:21:27 AM
Let's say for a moment that herbicides are not to blame. I don't believe it for a second, but let's say it. Even in the absence of evidence that herbicides are to blame for hoof disease, do you think it's wise for all of the new growth to be completely killed in clearcuts? Not only is the disease killing our elk, but the growth that a healthy herd depends on is being killed. It's ridiculous.
Practical, I don't find the working group at fault.
The spraying records are being examined.
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 11:41:38 AM
JLS, I believe the scientists from the DFW have been directed to look at certain areas and not at others. In 6 years of study since the large outbreak in 2008, there's been not a single toxicology done to detect present agricultural chemicals. How is that possible? I believe that until recently and only because of increased pressure from citizens and elected officials, that they've ignored very compelling evidence presented by Dr. Boone Mora, an established CDC expert in the area of leptospirosis because it would point to the herbicides as the reason the animals became susceptible to the disease. They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.
Let's say for a moment that herbicides are not to blame. I don't believe it for a second, but let's say it. Even in the absence of evidence that herbicides are to blame for hoof disease, do you think it's wise for all of the new growth to be completely killed in clearcuts? Not only is the disease killing our elk, but the growth that a healthy herd depends on is being killed. It's ridiculous.
Practical, I don't find the working group at fault.
The spraying records are being examined.
I've stated numerous times that I don't believe widespread herbicide use is good for wildife. Anyone that would deny this is foolish. Read my above post.
At this point, you are so convinced that it is herbicides causing the hoof disease that you are looking for things to confirm your beliefs. How is this not being single minded? You have your conspiracy theories and biases, and don't seem to be very objective about this. Granted, you have a very personal interest in this issue as you live in the area. I don't.
Reference the failure to test for the presence of agricultural chemicals. I think it's quite obvious that they would be present in trace amounts. Maybe it's present in toxic amounts. However, as I stated earlier, given that there are three veterinarians from WSU in the last study I think that if it were simply chemical induced delamination they would have been all over it.
I'm merely looking at it from an outside standpoint. I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, I'm trying to be objective. If you go into a controlled experiment merely trying to prove your hypothesis you are doomed to fail.
Post by: Bob33 on May 22, 2014, 11:47:40 AM
They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.The working group has representatives from RMEF, Safari Club, DNR, local tribes, county commissioners, Department of Health, WSU, USFS, WDFW, and Weyerhaeuser.
With no evidence to support it, you have implied that all of these members would compromise their personal integrity in their efforts to address this problem by ignoring potential causes. This is allegedly done in order to avoid the possibility of timber companies contacting elected officials. I find that implication to be shameful. To believe that RMEF, Safari Club, independent veterinarians, tribes, and others would participate in a cover up which harms elk is simply and literally incredible.
Brian Anderson, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Dr. Tom Besser, Washington State University
Dave Carlson, Safari Club International, WA State Chapters
Carol Chandler, U.S. Forest Service
Wayne Clifford, Washington Department of Health
Mick Cope, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel Cothren, Wahkiakum County Commissioner
Curt Gavigan, Senate Natural Resources
Bob Johnson, Department of Natural Resources
Dr. Sandra Jonker, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Chris Madsen, NW Indian Fisheries Commission
Dr. Kristin Mansfield, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
James Misner, Cowlitz County Commissioner
Barbara Moeller, Puyallup Tribe
Dr. Jerry Nelson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Mike Rochelle, Weyerhaeuser Company
Bob Schlecht, SW Land Access Coalition
Mark Smith, Local Resident/Business Owner
Axel Swanson, Clark County Senior Policy Lead
Dr. Ron Wohrle, Washington Department of Health
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 11:54:00 AM
They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.The working group has representatives from RMEF, Safari Club, DNR, local tribes, county commissioners, Department of Health, WSU, USFS, WDFW, and Weyerhaeuser.
With no evidence to support it, you have implied that all of these members would compromise their personal integrity in their efforts to address this problem by ignoring potential causes. This is allegedly done in order to avoid the possibility of timber companies contacting elected officials. I find that implication to be shameful. To believe that RMEF, Safari Club, independent veterinarians, tribes, and others would participate in a cover up which harms elk is simply and literally incredible.
Brian Anderson, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Dr. Tom Besser, Washington State University
Dave Carlson, Safari Club International, WA State Chapters
Carol Chandler, U.S. Forest Service
Wayne Clifford, Washington Department of Health
Mick Cope, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel Cothren, Wahkiakum County Commissioner
Curt Gavigan, Senate Natural Resources
Bob Johnson, Department of Natural Resources
Dr. Sandra Jonker, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Chris Madsen, NW Indian Fisheries Commission
Dr. Kristin Mansfield, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
James Misner, Cowlitz County Commissioner
Barbara Moeller, Puyallup Tribe
Dr. Jerry Nelson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Mike Rochelle, Weyerhaeuser Company
Bob Schlecht, SW Land Access Coalition
Mark Smith, Local Resident/Business Owner
Axel Swanson, Clark County Senior Policy Lead
Dr. Ron Wohrle, Washington Department of Health
I've said before that I don't blame the working group. I blame the administration of the WDFW. Read my posts, Bob.
Post by: t6 on May 22, 2014, 02:08:58 PM
If their position seems one sided, I believe you have a misperception. They are willing to accept that there are or potentially more than one thing at work here that is causing the illness the elk are plagued with.
The failure of WDFW to even accept the idea that herbicides could in any way be involved is not only blind but to many offensive.
This group is simply asking for an opportunity to be heard or considered fairly.
When it comes to the spraying of herbicides we are constantly reminded that its done properly by licensed applicators. When questions are asked about who oversees the process and ensures this is happening properly, we are told again that the applicators are licensed and have to file paperwork to ensure they did it correctly. Was the helicopter pilot in Oregon licensed? Didn't he file paperwork assuring us that it was done properly? The answer to both is yes. The reality is that the herbicides sprayed were not done properly and the paperwork filed was later confirmed to be a lie.
There is no oversight. Its done on the honor system. If I were to ask you for $10,000 and told you to trust me... Wouldn't you want a receipt?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 02:19:10 PM
My only care here is for the elk, as well. I'm passionate (and yes, JLS, dramatic) about it because people need to get their butts in gear and get involved. I don't care who you are or where you live. If you love elk and are not in this fight, then get in it. If you're not going to do that, then you have no place at all telling me that I'm being unreasonable or shameful. If you haven't been to the meetings, then you have no idea of the crap that's being laid out to the public. This is serious business and I believe that it'll come out that facts and evidence were at the very least avoided, if not purposely covered-up.
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 02:52:07 PM
I agree that there are many members of the working group who are truly in it to help the elk. Many of them Bob listed. I think that the DFW administration is hampering a true scientific examination of this disease and the working group is subject to whatever bull or roadblocks the administration puts in there.
According to the last meeting minutes, Dr. Mora was invited to submit his proposed experiment to the technical advisory members. Has he done so? What about Dr. Bessers rebuttal that they have tested for leptospirosis? Are you suggesting that Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks?
Post by: grundy53 on May 22, 2014, 02:57:31 PM
sent from my typewriter
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 03:08:11 PM
I agree that there are many members of the working group who are truly in it to help the elk. Many of them Bob listed. I think that the DFW administration is hampering a true scientific examination of this disease and the working group is subject to whatever bull or roadblocks the administration puts in there.
According to the last meeting minutes, Dr. Mora was invited to submit his proposed experiment to the technical advisory members. Has he done so? What about Dr. Bessers rebuttal that they have tested for leptospirosis? Are you suggesting that Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks?
No I'm not suggesting Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks. The last word I got on Dr. Mora was yesterday from Sandra Jonker that he's been invited to a meeting in June. When I wrote to Dr. Jonker and Nate Pamplin over two weeks ago to inquire if they'd taken him up on his offer, I received no response from either. I believe that Dr. Mora has done everything that's been requested of him by the WDFW.
Post by: t6 on May 22, 2014, 03:15:17 PM
Many of the tags are filled from the hills if the hunters can find elk there at all any more. If you followed the link to Koin 6 you saw that the Commissioner himself is a hunter and sees a dramatic decrease in the elk populations there.
Post by: grundy53 on May 22, 2014, 03:23:57 PM
Grundy.... the elk in the Willapa don't live exclusively in the fields however, many have taken up residency there because of their hoof rot. Food and water are available but cover isn't. This was also covered in the meeting. Farmers complain to WDFW about the elk in the fields and the damage they cause as a result, permits continue to be issued for those areas. The problem is that much of the property is posted and elk are rarely taken from the fields unless you know someone. The elk that are pressured return to the hills.I understand they don't live in the fields. When I say "field elk" I'm talking about the elk that do the majority of their feeding in the fields. I wouldn't say there are anymore elk in the fields now then there were before.
Many of the tags are filled from the hills if the hunters can find elk there at all any more. If you followed the link to Koin 6 you saw that the Commissioner himself is a hunter and sees a dramatic decrease in the elk populations there.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 22, 2014, 03:25:07 PM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on May 22, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
Post by: t6 on May 22, 2014, 04:50:03 PM
There was another issue brought up that may make it illegal for hunters to remove the hooves. There is a new law proposed by WDFW that would require hunters to leave the hooves at the kill site. They even talked about having check points staffed to ensure the hooves were not removed.
If they are bagged and used for research, why restrict their removal? Would it limit independent research?
Post by: northwesthunter84 on May 22, 2014, 04:52:18 PM
Post by: JLS on May 22, 2014, 04:54:31 PM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on May 22, 2014, 05:08:33 PM
Post by: blackdog on May 24, 2014, 01:21:02 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 24, 2014, 01:27:08 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 24, 2014, 01:28:33 PM
If it turns out to be an infectious disease, removing the hooves would/could promote the spread of the disease to other geographical areas. Think CWD.
Walking in the woods, getting mud in your boots, and walking somewhere else could spread the disease.
Post by: bobcat on May 24, 2014, 01:55:44 PM
Post by: jongosch on May 24, 2014, 02:57:18 PM
This is all very interesting. Can anyone shed any light on why herbicides are potentially having a larger impact on elk in Southwest Washington state than on other timberlands up and down the west coast? Why aren't we seeing these problems in elk where the habitat is the same and timber management practices are the same?
This comment has a lot of merit and it's something I've thought about a great deal. Here's an insightful message I got from Krystal Davies yesterday:
"I also noticed that Dr. Cook (from NCASI) said herbicides and pesticides are used in Oregon and other parts of Washington but no hoof disease there. This is misleading because a) it's thinking correlation is causation or in this case not the cause and b) we don't know what herbicides and pesticides are being used there or how much. We also have not studied their hooves to see if there are any signs of metabolic stress affecting their hooves as well. Just because an elk isn't hobbling around doesn't mean there isn't an issue. Some laminitis triggers are only harmful in large quantities (such as alfalfa in horses) and others are harmful with only a little amount (such as molasses for horses). Some animals are affected heavily by some triggers and some animals appear to handle them better than others. There are so many variables to a situation like this. Ruling something out as a trigger before fully understanding it is the first step to failing to cure laminitis."
Also, at the end of this recent KOIN 6 video the newscaster says, "Oregon Fish and Wildlife tell us it's possible there have been a few cases here in Oregon."
Hoof rot continues to plague elk in Washington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3z6UB9ENc#ws)
Post by: elk247 on May 24, 2014, 03:07:48 PM
I have no knowledge of the St Helens herd but what I have observed in the area I hunt (willapa hills) is that most of the elk I see with hoof rot are field elk. The elk that rarely if ever visit the fields (spend most of the time on Weyerhaeuser property) don't have hoof rot. I'm not in anyway trying to hypothesize the cause one way or the other. I just find it weird that the elk most exposed to the spraying are the elk that aren't suffering from hoof rot, at least in my area. I am definitely all for more in-depth research. I hope they can fix this.I have to wonder if your observations are a result of the disease instead of the cause? Crippled animals would likely choose flat ground and easy meals over steep hillsides. I also am not convinced that pesticides and herbicides are the root of this outbreak but I don't care for them either. IMO burning is the best forestry practice. To an unaware new hunter simply looking at harvest report numbers these elk units have good harvest percentages. The truth is three legged elk (so to speak) really tips the odds in favor of the hunter. Everyone is very passionate about elk and has different opinions on what could be the cause. Discussion is good, lets not attack industrial practices until we have sufficient proof. Any and all Ideas should be considered or at least heard. I think Dr. Mora is taking this investigation in the right direction.
sent from my typewriter
Post by: jongosch on May 24, 2014, 04:22:26 PM
:yeah:
You really can't find the working group at fault. The public working group meetings really don't allow for any constructive input. The agenda is pre determined by WDFW. If you noticed from yesterdays meeting that the working group sat there right along with the public and watched a slide show that laid out what WDFW was going to do. Any questions or comments from the work group were almost view as an interruption. If the work group were a true work group, they would be allowed to participate than give thumbs up or down to what the state is selling.
I agree with you Practical Approach. The Working Group itself is not to blame. I've attended their past two meetings in Vancouver and Kelso and there are some wonderful people on the group who obviously care a great deal about wildlife, hunters, the environment, etc. Mark Smith, Dan Cothren, Axel Swanson and Bob Schlecht have stood out to me especially. They show their passion. They ask good questions. They're critical when necessary.
On the other hand, in a total of 6 hours the Weyerhaeuser rep, Michael J. Rochelle, has spoken exactly zero times. As in total silence, no input, nothing. And he's a Wildlife Biologist!!! You think he'd be interested in this case, but during the last meeting I actually watched him nod off a couple times. And keep in mind that this is happening almost entirely on Weyerhaeuser land. If you put a map of Weyerhaeuser land in Washington over the top of the hoof disease observations map from the WDFW website they line up very nicely.
Someone out there is screeching, "That proves nothing!" and you're right, it's not a smoking gun, but how many correlations do you need before that whole 'correlation doesn't prove causation' phrase start to wither away like a meadow sprayed with atrazine, 2,4-D and Roundup?
If you don't think these chemicals are detrimental to the health of humans as well, check out this video that was just released two weeks ago about a community in Oregon. And if you still aren't convinced that herbicides are at play here then Ed Barnes has some water he'd like you to drink for an experiment he's conducting. :bdid:
A Poisoned Paradise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eIO7qoeraM#ws)
Post by: t6 on May 24, 2014, 05:20:41 PM
I guess I have the most concern that WDFW refuses to accept or consider that there may be something more than their latest guess occurring here and heaven forbid the admit that the elk may not be safe for human contact or consumption.
What would the ramifications be then? What if they know its not safe and are not telling Sportsmen? What could potentially happen then?
Post by: elkman54 on May 24, 2014, 08:18:46 PM
If the ground is continually wet and a herd of elk go through they create mud. If the ground is continually wet the chemicals stay closer to the surface in some areas, not all. Penetration will vary dependent on soil types.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 25, 2014, 09:40:22 PM
:yeah: Absolutely spot on!!!!They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.The working group has representatives from RMEF, Safari Club, DNR, local tribes, county commissioners, Department of Health, WSU, USFS, WDFW, and Weyerhaeuser.
With no evidence to support it, you have implied that all of these members would compromise their personal integrity in their efforts to address this problem by ignoring potential causes. This is allegedly done in order to avoid the possibility of timber companies contacting elected officials. I find that implication to be shameful. To believe that RMEF, Safari Club, independent veterinarians, tribes, and others would participate in a cover up which harms elk is simply and literally incredible.
I have been disgusted by the desire of some to drum up conspiracy and controversy when it is clear that this is a very difficult and complex issue that will not be solved over night. Although based on other threads it does not surprise me to see folks resort to conspiracies and cover-ups in place of facts and logic :rolleyes:
That being said, it still does seem very likely that herbicides are playing a role...probably some very difficult and complex tertiary interactions that are not easy to identify.
Post by: t6 on May 25, 2014, 10:33:45 PM
I find it equally discusting the apathy that WDFW and the Timber Companies have shown to the plight of the elk and the potential loss to communities in the effected areas.
There is more than enough evidence to see that the herbicide Atrazine has significant risks to the elk and to humans alike. WDFW and their "Researchers" do not want to even examine it as a potential cause or factor in the illness.
All people are asking is for WDFW to look at it objectively and so far they are simply ignoring the evidence and people such as yourself defending their position does nothing to promote further examination.
So far, they have spent little money and have even fewer results.
I think the "Conspiracy Group" is more than willing to look at everything and anything as a cause to the "Hoof Rot" however there is something causing the elk to be susceptible to the disease or diseases at had.
Why is WDFW so opposed to looking at the herbicides as a cause?
Post by: rotty33 on May 25, 2014, 10:37:51 PM
Post by: t6 on May 25, 2014, 10:46:01 PM
How about we get our Officials to put a moratorium on chemical pesticides and herbicides for five years and see if the health of wildlife improves.
Atrazine can live for up to a year in the soil. Look this crap up and do some research. Amazing amounts of information are available on the internet if you spend a little bit of time. It certainly wont take you five years...... yes more sarcsam.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 25, 2014, 11:16:10 PM
Idaho.... no one has said anything about a conspiracy .... yet.Go read Bob's post again. He is spot on...that's what I am referencing. I also agree that the herbicides are a very likely culprit...but I have nothing to base that on.
I find it equally discusting the apathy that WDFW and the Timber Companies have shown to the plight of the elk and the potential loss to communities in the effected areas.
There is more than enough evidence to see that the herbicide Atrazine has significant risks to the elk and to humans alike. WDFW and their "Researchers" do not want to even examine it as a potential cause or factor in the illness.
All people are asking is for WDFW to look at it objectively and so far they are simply ignoring the evidence and people such as yourself defending their position does nothing to promote further examination.
So far, they have spent little money and have even fewer results.
I think the "Conspiracy Group" is more than willing to look at everything and anything as a cause to the "Hoof Rot" however there is something causing the elk to be susceptible to the disease or diseases at had.
Why is WDFW so opposed to looking at the herbicides as a cause?
Post by: Tbar on May 25, 2014, 11:47:21 PM
I also realize what's potentially at stake with those employed by a public agency. I don't think they are scared of finding a cause but want scientific proof of what that cause is before the determination is made. To attack any industry is risky especially if you are without concrete evidence to back your claims. It literally awes me to see the oversimplification of all the complexities involved by some people.
Post by: t6 on May 26, 2014, 04:55:02 AM
No one has said the members of the working group are to blame.
Its extremely possible that the elk are suffering from a multitude of illnesses brought on by immunotoxins lowering their ability to fight the bacteria and or viruses.
Let me ask this..... if you were looking for answers for five years, wouldn't you consider the toxins sprayed as a possible culprit? I would and I'm not a scientist or biologist but I can read the science that's already out there.
Why won't WDFW?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 26, 2014, 06:07:37 AM
The thing that rubs me in ALL these threads is many members have keep claiming absolute proof and discounting several respectable professionals work, knowledge, and integrity. I don't even discount the knowledge of all involved. The integrity attacks really bother me as I know several people truly care and are working very hard to find a very difficult resolution. Could the audience have the answers? Absolutely! However there are people on this forum and at the meetings that have turned a serious issue into something like a whodunit theater (if you have been to one you can relate to the likenesses). Some may be spot on and others are on a completely different subject all together (and may be promoting their own agenda).
I also realize what's potentially at stake with those employed by a public agency. I don't think they are scared of finding a cause but want scientific proof of what that cause is before the determination is made. To attack any industry is risky especially if you are without concrete evidence to back your claims. It literally awes me to see the oversimplification of all the complexities involved by some people.
No one said they have absolute proof. But there's been very compelling evidence presented and so far, it's been largely ignored. In 5 years, they haven't tested once for agricultural chemicals. That doesn't seem odd to you, TB?
Look at the wolf program and tell me again about professionals and integrity at the top of the WDFW. There may be several people who care, as you say. As I've said before, I think the working group is mainly a hard core group of people honestly concerned about the disease and finding solutions. That doesn't mean that their suggestions and concerns will be properly addressed if they don't fit within established agendas. The damage to veterans from Agent Orange was denied for decades and at some levels of government, still is. Yet, we know and see what it has done to them. Tell me all you know about the integrity of our government. I'll be at the national cemetery this morning looking at the stones which indicate that sometimes they lie to us and those we care about.
Post by: nwwanderer on May 26, 2014, 06:40:54 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on May 26, 2014, 07:54:53 AM
Idaho.... no one has said anything about a conspiracy .... yet.
I find it equally discusting the apathy that WDFW and the Timber Companies have shown to the plight of the elk and the potential loss to communities in the effected areas.
There is more than enough evidence to see that the herbicide Atrazine has significant risks to the elk and to humans alike. WDFW and their "Researchers" do not want to even examine it as a potential cause or factor in the illness.
All people are asking is for WDFW to look at it objectively and so far they are simply ignoring the evidence and people such as yourself defending their position does nothing to promote further examination.
So far, they have spent little money and have even fewer results.
I think the "Conspiracy Group" is more than willing to look at everything and anything as a cause to the "Hoof Rot" however there is something causing the elk to be susceptible to the disease or diseases at had.
Why is WDFW so opposed to looking at the herbicides as a cause?
Maybe because WDFW don't care about elk as much as they care about geoducks? :dunno: I am not big on conspiracy theories, but in the book "Operation Cody" the author mentions a couple of times that that is the sentiment in parts of WDFW.
Post by: bbarnes on May 26, 2014, 08:48:44 AM
This product is toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Spray drift or runoff may adversely affect aquatic invertebrates and non-target plants in neighboring areas. Do not apply to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Keep out of lakes, streams and ponds. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters. Atrazine can travel (seep or leach) through soil and can enter groundwater that may be used as drinking water. Atrazine has been found in groundwater.
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_0060/0901b8038006060f.pdf?filepath=/011-10104.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc (http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_0060/0901b8038006060f.pdf?filepath=/011-10104.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)
In view of the toxicity induced in experimental animals on repeated exposure, proper care should be taken during occupational use to avoid excessive inhalation of dust or spray particles, and to prevent accidental contamination of food products and water.
http://www.fmccrop.com.au/wp-content/uploads/PDFs/Atrazine%20900%20WG%20Herbicide%20MSDS.pdf (http://www.fmccrop.com.au/wp-content/uploads/PDFs/Atrazine%20900%20WG%20Herbicide%20MSDS.pdf)
Atrazine is highly persistent in soil.
Keep away from food, drink and animal feeding stuffs.
Breakdown in vegetation: Atrazine is absorbed by plants mainly through the roots, but also through the foliage. Once absorbed, it is translocated upward and accumulates in the growing tips and the new leaves of the plant.
http://www.apvma.gov.au/products/review/docs/atrazine_tox.pdf (http://www.apvma.gov.au/products/review/docs/atrazine_tox.pdf)
Bodyweight and thymus weights were reduced in all groups. Animals appeared thin and hunched at the 2 highest doses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481744/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481744/)
Cattle can be considered as an important source for herbicides through nutrition. Therefore, herbicide residue in animal products is a potential human exposure to herbicides causing public health problems in human life. Triazines are a group of herbicides primarily used to control broadleaf weeds in corn and other feed ingredients and are considered as possible human carcinogens. To evaluate trace residue of these pollutants molecular imprinted solid phase extraction (MISPE) method has been developed, using biological samples.
Atrazine (2-chloro-4-ethylamino-6-isopropylamino-1, 3, 5-teriazine) (C8H14ClN5) Atrazine is the most widely used S-triazine. Other S-triazines used as herbicides are Symazine and cyromazine. Atrazine is not very volatile, reactive or flammable but dissolves readily in water and has been heavily used throughout the world especially applied to corn, sorghum and sugar cane (4). Atrazine usage have been increasing steadily since the 1960’s to the level of about 64 to 80 million 1bs each year in the United States, making it one of the two most widely used pesticides in that country (3).
Since the number of environmental pollutants, drugs and their metabolites, and additives used in the food and feed industry is growing, the need for efficient and accurate analytical methods to detect such compounds is increasing, especially for compounds affecting human health (13). Advanced instrumentation and their detectors are able to detect and identify trace levels of analytes in complex samples (13).
Cattle can accumulate herbicides in their body through ingestion plants infested with these compounds and one of the ways, by which, human beings are exposed to atrazine is through cattle meat and milk consumption.
This study was aimed to monitor presence of atrazine in the cattle biological samples, using molecular imprinted solid phase extraction followed by high performance liquid chromatography.
Atrazine has more acute toxic effects on ruminants than rodents. In one study, two doses of 250 mg/kg caused death in both sheep and cattle (29).
Atrazine concentrations in the serum and urine samples of the study group were higher (P < 0.001) than those of the control group, which indicates that atrazine in the feed ingredients, ingested by cattle, could be transferred in to the biological samples and would be a potential hazard for human health.
It seems that the present study is the first one which reports atrazine residues in biological samples of cattle. The statistically significant difference between atrazine concentration in the serum and urine samples of the study and control groups indicated that atrazine in the feed ingredients ingested by cattle could be transferred in to the biological samples and could be a potential hazard for human health.
Post by: bbarnes on May 26, 2014, 08:51:09 AM
Atrazine is a broad-leaf, pre-emergence herbicide. It is one of the most widely used herbicides around the world. Atrazine is the leading member of a class of triazine ring-containing herbicides that includes simazine and terbutylazine. Atrazine has been found to be less biodegradable than other less substituted s-triazine ring compounds with a half life from 1 week to 1 year in different soils. Because of their relative wide application, their relative high persistence, and their ability to leach through the soil, they can be detected in rain, surface water and ground water. the application of Atrazine is prohibited in several countries, in the U.S., according to the USEPA SWDA drinking water guidelines, the MCL for Atrazine is not allowed to exceed 3 ppb. The ELISA test kit detects Atrazine and related Triazines in environmental samples at the ppt levels and does not cross-react with non-related agricultural compounds.
The kit, a 96-well microtiter plate format with ready to use reagents, enables fast assay kinetics, super sensitivity, and the simultaneous measurement of multiple samples at a reasonable cost. The total time for measurement is less than 50 minutes.
For further information about our Atrazine kit, please contact us at customerservice@biosense.com
download .pdf product sheet
The Atrazine ELISA kit has been successfully verified by The Environmental Technology Verification Program (ETV). The results of the evaluation can be found at the US Environmental Protection Agency homepage. Download the .pdf statement here.
Post by: bbarnes on May 26, 2014, 08:55:09 AM
The present study evaluated the possible protective effects of selenium against atrazine-induced toxicity in the liver and reproductive system of rats. Atrazine administered to rats orally at a dose of 120 mg/kg caused an inhibition in the activity of glutathione-S-transferase and an increase in malondialdehyde formation in the liver, testis and epididymis. Superoxide dismutase decreased in the liver and testis but was increased in the epididymis. Furthermore, hepatic glutathione and lactate dehydrogenase activity increased while epididymal catalase, ascorbate content, hepatic aspartate aminotransferase and glutathione peroxidase activities in all the tissues decreased in the atrazine-treated animals. Hepatic, testicular and epididymal alanine aminotransferase activities were not affected by atrazine (p>0.05). Decreased epididymal and testicular sperm number, sperm motility, daily sperm production and increased number of dead and abnormal sperm were observed in atrazine-treated rats.
Treatment of rats orally with selenium at a dose of 0.25 mg/kg did not prevent atrazine-induced changes in sperm characteristics and had no protective effects against atrazine-induced biochemical alterations in the testis and epididymis except testicular lactate dehydrogenase. Catalase activity and ascorbate contents were unchanged in these groups of animals. However, selenium effectively protected against atrazine-induced changes in biochemical indices in the liver. In rats treated with selenium alone, glutathione peroxidase in all the tissues, hepatic glutathione and superoxide dismutase, testicular lactate dehydrogenase activity and ascorbate content increased, while hepatic catalase activities decreased (p<0.05).
Our data suggest that selenium effectively attenuated the toxic effects of atrazine-induced liver changes but not in the reproductive organs and sperms of rats. Selenium might therefore be useful in ameliorating oxidative stress in the liver.
Post by: bbarnes on May 26, 2014, 09:13:48 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 26, 2014, 09:23:18 AM
Local Farrier’s Research Connects Herbicides to Hoof Disease in Elk, Horses
WDFW Invites Her to Make Formal Presentation, Senior Scientist with Forest Law Center Finds Research "Compelling"
Ooooops Already on page 2..... sorry
Post by: Tbar on May 26, 2014, 12:56:00 PM
Piano you have been very vocal on 2 different threads claiming findings of a source and cure for the hoof disease. The first being Boone Moras findings after (1?) observation and zero necropsy or testing(?). The other being Krystal Davies (a John Gosch thread) link and cure thread. Again I am not even making claims that either of these people are wrong (I hope they are right) but have seen their theories used as a platform to publicly trash others working towards the same goal (although some have done a little back peddling).
On a side note bbarnes I have zero trust in the assistant director, period.
Post by: bbarnes on May 26, 2014, 04:08:18 PM
Post by: t6 on May 26, 2014, 07:50:38 PM
The reality is as you can see from Bruce's posts is that it's an extremely complicated matter. One that many feel as though will not be unraveled if WDFW continues to ignore the possibility of Herbicides as a potential cause.
Some of us that have done some research into the herbicides have had many discussions. You'll have to excuse my input as I'm just a simple redneck who hates laziness or lies. I feel as though WDFW has given us both otherwise I wouldn't have gotten involved to begin with.
The herbicide Atrazine is a favorite around the world and especially here in the PNW. It is marketed under many names as you can see in Barnes' earlier post. It is either Atrazine or a blend of Atrazine and other chemicals.
Atrazine by itself is an immunotoxin that effects a number of internal organs and the endocrine system which in effect is the immune system in just about everything living.
There are other factors involved including the loss of forage as well as the other diseases, viruses, and bacteria. All of which may be present due to the compromised immune system and Atrazine.
There have been questions as to why elk in other areas are not effected. As you can see (Again in Barnes' earlier post) that Selenium may attenuate the effects of the Atrazine. As we know the soil in the effected areas is Selenium and copper poor.
Once the immune system is compromised, any one of the suspected illnesses or all of them may be in play including, treponeme bacteria, leptospirosis, and God knows what else. This may be bringing on the Laminitis seen by and documented by Krystal Davies.
Its a very complicated and many of the problems may be co-dependent on another factor, creating the perfect storm of such.
What we do know is that WDFW has been extremely slow to react to the issue and very narrow minded while refusing to accept that it could be anything more than Treptonneme.
We're not asking to be "Right" We're not asking for a prize. We are asking for them to consider the possibilities. So far that hasn't happened. :'(
Now for the conspiracy theory..... Keep in mind.. I'm a simple redneck with a backwoods education (They taught Logging as an Elective at my High School) however, I have worked for the Government for 23 years. I know that in those 23 years, there are a few constants....the paychecks, and the *BS*. Some in Administration believe that while the first is necessary, the second should be an Art Form. Apparently Dr. Mansfield is no different.
I did not like or appreciate being lied to in the last Working Group Meeting when she told me that there was no way to test for toxins in elk. No such test existed. As a Dr. she should know better and I believe she does.
Atrazine has been tested in mice, bovine, and even humans. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the humans were dead or died as a result of the test)
What is the problem with testing for possible toxins? Why the resistance? Would it kill anyone to have the tests done in soil, foilage, and animal tissues? It may just save the elk of SW WA.
This ends my rant.... take it or leave it, I hope to see more public involvement and interest in future meetings.
T6
Post by: Tbar on May 26, 2014, 08:44:01 PM
I have nothing but respect for people like bbarnes and their dedication to elk.
Again my apologies t6.
Post by: t6 on May 26, 2014, 08:54:55 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2014, 05:54:38 AM
Bbarnes I actually agree with you and your agenda. I really wasn't referring to you when I said some have personal agendas and commend you for your efforts. I also have been very concerned about herbicides since the late 80s. I had my first meeting with foresters (the first of several) concerning the public safety issues of herbicides in 1990. It was a prefect storm of negatives that nearly ended elk hunting for good in my area. I wish they would use different forest practices like most sportsman.
Piano you have been very vocal on 2 different threads claiming findings of a source and cure for the hoof disease. The first being Boone Moras findings after (1?) observation and zero necropsy or testing(?). The other being Krystal Davies (a John Gosch thread) link and cure thread. Again I am not even making claims that either of these people are wrong (I hope they are right) but have seen their theories used as a platform to publicly trash others working towards the same goal (although some have done a little back peddling).
On a side note bbarnes I have zero trust in the assistant director, period.
The only people I've "publicly trashed" is the administration of the WDFW. Their involvement in this battle from the beginning has been, I believe, obstructionist and they haven't had the same goals at all. I believe their goals are far different from those of the working group. It's people like bbarnes and jongosch who've forced them to start looking where they knew they should have been looking all the time. Had it not been for people like bbarnes and jongosch, I don't think they'd be actively pursuing the disease today. I'm not sure why you've singled me out and I don't really give a crap why. I fight the same fight as the other people asking questions. And, I'm disgusted as they are that this has been allowed to continue. I will continue to question the administration and will continue to call them out on their crap.
Post by: Curly on May 27, 2014, 09:21:38 AM
(Basically, it boils down to incompetence. Once we understand just how incompetant WDFW is it helps to see past any conspiracy theories). :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2014, 09:30:57 AM
I don't really believe in a conspiracy theory regarding this hoof rot issue, but I can understand how some my turn to some conspiracy theory. The incompetence WDFW has shown is almost harder to believe than some conspiracy theories. When "hoof rot" has been documented since the early 90's and there seems to be little concern over the issue until just recently it makes one wonder WTH is going on within the deptartment. Then when you hear about WDFW not accepting a donation for researching the problem and refusing help from a well qualified Dr, it would tend to make people scratch their heads and say WTF? :twocents:
(Basically, it boils down to incompetence. Once we understand just how incompetant WDFW is it helps to see past any conspiracy theories). :twocents:
For me, it's the fact that they've been studying this for 5 years and haven't once tested for agricultural chemicals - not once. When looking for the cause of an unknown disease, I would think this test would be a no-brainer. These people aren't stupid. This is why I think that there's pressure on them to not link this to the biggest political contributors in the state - big timber. Big timber donates to both sides of the aisle and the governor, and in big amounts. Most politicians would be in trouble without these donations. So as a result, most are beholding to them for the money.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2014, 09:31:52 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2014, 09:35:58 AM
Post by: Curly on May 27, 2014, 09:59:43 AM
I don't think it's incompetence. It's just like Pman is saying, it all has to do with money. In more ways than one. I would imagine the lack of effort the WDFW has put into this also has to do with a lack of funding.
Why refuse a $20,000 donation from RMEF? Apparently they finally accepted money from them eventually but didn't they turn it down several years ago? And why not jump all over Dr. Mora's offer to help out?
WDFW should have been asking for help and funding for studies..... elk hunters would have ponied up lots of money to get to the bottom of this; and it should have started being studied 15 years ago.
I see the points about money and big timber, but I still think there is a high level of incompetence at WDFW. Not necessarily with the bios and techs working there; I know they are highly educated and smart, and when I say incompetent I'm not saying they are dumb......I just think management is incompetent. If there is a funding problem with getting to the bottom of this disease they need to find a way to get funding. Management needs to make sure that the study takes place efficiently and everything is looked into............that obviously isn't happening.
I could be wrong, but I just picture this working group as having meeting after meeting......not really getting anywhere. Probably having a meeting to discuss when the next meeting will be. :bash:
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2014, 10:03:17 AM
I don't think it's incompetence. It's just like Pman is saying, it all has to do with money. In more ways than one. I would imagine the lack of effort the WDFW has put into this also has to do with a lack of funding.
Why refuse a $20,000 donation from RMEF? Apparently they finally accepted money from them eventually but didn't they turn it down several years ago? And why not jump all over Dr. Mora's offer to help out?
WDFW should have been asking for help and funding for studies..... elk hunters would have ponied up lots of money to get to the bottom of this; and it should have started being studied 15 years ago.
I see the points about money and big timber, but I still think there is a high level of incompetence at WDFW. Not necessarily with the bios and techs working there; I know they are highly educated and smart, and when I say incompetent I'm not saying they are dumb......I just think management is incompetent. If there is a funding problem with getting to the bottom of this disease they need to find a way to get funding. Management needs to make sure that the study takes place efficiently and everything is looked into............that obviously isn't happening.
I could be wrong, but I just picture this working group as having meeting after meeting......not really getting anywhere. Probably having a meeting to discuss when the next meeting will be. :bash:
I believe the bios and techs have been told exactly at what they should be looking. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2014, 10:05:42 AM
But yes they should have been working towards finding a solution to the hoof rot issue. It should have been more of a priority. Maybe they were hoping the wolves would show up soon and eliminate all the elk with hoof disease.
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2014, 10:13:51 AM
It seems to me that they are (or were) putting all their efforts (and OUR money) into wolves. They simply don't have the personnel to handle two major issues like this all at the same time.Perhaps not as aggressively as you like, but they have been working on finding a solution to hoof rot for more than five years.
But yes they should have been working towards finding a solution to the hoof rot issue. It should have been more of a priority. Maybe they were hoping the wolves would show up soon and eliminate all the elk with hoof disease.
Post by: Curly on May 27, 2014, 10:16:58 AM
I believe the bios and techs have been told exactly at what they should be looking. :dunno:
That is still a hard pill for me to swallow. I'm open to believing that I guess, but I have my doubts. I hope it isn't the case.
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2014, 10:20:37 AM
It seems to me that they are (or were) putting all their efforts (and OUR money) into wolves. They simply don't have the personnel to handle two major issues like this all at the same time.Perhaps not as aggressively as you like, but they have been working on finding a solution to hoof rot for more than five years.
But yes they should have been working towards finding a solution to the hoof rot issue. It should have been more of a priority. Maybe they were hoping the wolves would show up soon and eliminate all the elk with hoof disease.
That's right. It just didn't seem to become a priority until the complaints started coming in. I could be way off on this but I got the impression that they really weren't concerned until the media began putting out articles about how bad it was and that nothing was being done.
And now, it seems from the reports I'm hearing, that they don't want to look at herbicide use as a potential factor in hoof disease.
Post by: jongosch on May 27, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
It's important to remember that leptospirosis is considered the world’s most common zoonosis, meaning it is a communicable disease passed between animals and man. In Linda Andersson’s study in the Andaman Islands, she documented that more than 50 people per year had died as a result of leptospirosis. Hunters are among the most susceptible.
Now consider the following:
1) “We have detected Leptospira in the kidneys of four [elk]" said Dr. Tom Besser, a Professor at Washington State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and a member of WDFW’s technical advisory group. This was on Feb. 12, 2014.
2) Serology tests suggest WDFW/WSU only tested on 16 elk, and only 6 of the more than 200 serovars, meaning that lepstospirosis is likely much more prevalent in the herds than their limited tests indicate.
3) In 1996, Dr. Louis C. Bender, an employee of WDFW at the time, published a paper in the Journal of Wildlife Diseases entitled Leptospira interrogans Exposure in Free-ranging Elk in Washington. That can be easily found on google.
4) Dr. Bender’s field research showed that 14 of 17 sampled elk had been infected by Leptospira bacteria. According to Dr. Bender, “The high seroprevalence is evidence that exposure is widespread in the herd.”
5) Dr. Mora has been warning WDFW about leptospirosis for more than a year. Again, he is a Parasitology expert and a former County Health Director. His dissertation was written entirely about leptospirosis. He has asked for no money, only permission to help. So far he has not been allowed to do so.
6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.
Now go back to the hunting pamphlet. Electronically search for the word gloves. You will not find it. Nor will you find the words blood, urine or fluids through which the bacteria are most commonly contracted by humans. You also will not find any warning that hunters should take extra precautions when harvesting elk even though they are capable of infecting hunters with a fatal disease, and even though WDFW knows and has acknowledged that leptospirosis is present in the herd.
WDFW did however find the room for a 9 paragraph article written by Wildlife Program Assistant Director Nate Pamplin entitled, "Hunting camp photos keep memories alive." In closing, Pamplin wishes us all, "Good hunting."
Someone who should be especially active on the subject of leptospirosis is Wayne Clifford, Manager of Pesticide Illness and Zoonotics Disease Surveillance and Prevention with the Department of Health. He is also a member of the Elk Hoof Disease Public Working Group.
Some food for thought, fellas. Pure facts. You can come to your own conclusions...
http://jongosch.com/infected-elk-may-pose-serious-health-risk-to-humans/ (http://jongosch.com/infected-elk-may-pose-serious-health-risk-to-humans/)
Post by: HntnFsh on May 27, 2014, 07:13:29 PM
I think the reason that these things.
6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.
Now go back to the hunting pamphlet. Electronically search for the word gloves. You will not find it. Nor will you find the words blood, urine or fluids through which the bacteria are most commonly contracted by humans. You also will not find any warning that hunters should take extra precautions when harvesting elk even though they are capable of infecting hunters with a fatal disease, and even though WDFW knows and has acknowledged that leptospirosis is present in the herd.
Arent mentioned in the pamphlet is because people will start questioning whether its worth the health risks to harvest animals. When key words like that are mentioned people get scared. A lot of people probably wouldnt buy liscences and tags. So My conspiracy theory is that WDFW has a lot to lose financially if they properly inform people of the possible health hazards. So yes its all about the $s. Even at the risk of the health of the public sector!
Post by: JLS on May 27, 2014, 07:17:28 PM
Quote
No human cases of leptospirosis have been traced to contact with deer, and the risk of infection from free-ranging, wild animals is virtually non-existent.
https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26943--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26943--,00.html)
The quote is from the last sentence in the link.
Post by: HntnFsh on May 27, 2014, 07:33:15 PM
1.Leptospirosis is contagious to humans and can be contracted by as little as touching the skin or hide of an infected animal.
2.If left undiagnosed and untreated, leptospirosis and its complications often prove fatal to humans.
Leptospirosis is considered the world’s most common zoonosis, meaning it is a communicable disease passed between animals and man. In Linda Andersson’s study in the Andaman Islands, she documented that out of a population of less than 400,000, more than 50 people per year had died as a result of leptospirosis. On the surface this may not seem like an extraordinarily high percentage, but for somebody with frequent exposure to infected animals such as a hunter, a butcher or a veterinarian, the odds rise significantly. Andersson’s statistics also show that the cases of leptospirosis and related deaths initially grew over the course of her study because as the disease became better understood, it was discovered that more people had it.
Leptospirosis is also an elusive and routinely misdiagnosed disease that can’t be seen under a regular microscope and is often mistaken for other diseases like aseptic meningitis, hepatitis, influenza, pneumonia, brucellosis and food poisoning. The most common symptoms of leptospirosis include fever, chills, headache, nausea, vomiting and, of course, muscular pain. As Dr. Mora wrote in his 1978 dissertation devoted entirely to leptospirosis, “Of 318 cases in which initial impressions were recorded, only 17 percent were suspected of having leptospirosis.”
According to Dr. Mora, “Epidemics of leptospirosis in man and animals have occurred from Alaska to the tropics and all points between,” and they often wreak havoc for years or even decades before they are understood. In the 1940s, outbreaks of a fever at Fort Bragg, North Carolina remained undiagnosed as leptospirosis for eight years. In the Andaman Islands, it took fifteen years for Andaman hemorrhagic fever to be identified as leptospirosis. Just this past week, Dr. Katie Stephens, a veterinarian with the Cowlitz Animal Clinic in Longview, WA alerted pet owners that there had been five cases of suspected leptospirosis at the clinic in the past two weeks. According to Dr. Stephens, two of the dogs died acutely and one of the dogs was confirmed to have Leptospira autumnalis by the Washington State Animal Disease and Diagnostic Lab.
Post by: jongosch on May 27, 2014, 07:37:35 PM
According to their official website, "NCASI was established in 1943 by a consortium of pulp and paper companies" and "NCASI is funded largely by voluntary contributions made by its member companies — primarily forest products companies and industrial timberland owners in North America."
NCASI's "expert" Toxicologist claimed during the last Working Group meeting that, “We’ve done research on the synergistic effects of herbicides… We didn’t find any.” As many have said, it's hard to find something when you're not really looking for it. Here's what I found on the subject:
In 2011, researchers from the University of Siena stated that, “Because coformulants (also known as adjuvants) represent the highest amount in pesticide mixtures, even a minor toxicological concern could become significant in relation to their use especially considering the fact that, besides being toxic themselves, they can also increase the toxic effects of Active Ingredients”
Of course timber funded scientists will claim herbicides are safe for the environment. It's what they're paid to "research" and "discover." Same old song and dance as it was with leaded gasoline, cigarettes, DDT, asbestos, and innumerable pharmaceuticals that were determined by scientists to be "safe."
We also question why WDFW invited representatives from NCASI on their pre-meeting field trip but would not allow reps from the Washington Forest Law Center to attend. That is not transparency. That is not good faith. That does not inspire public trust.
A rapidly growing coalition of hunters, conservationists and ordinary taxpaying citizens will continue to be unpersuaded by any research that is funded by the timber companies and we will not be satisfied until an independent third party research team is granted permission to study on live elk.
Post by: jongosch on May 27, 2014, 07:55:56 PM
QuoteNo human cases of leptospirosis have been traced to contact with deer, and the risk of infection from free-ranging, wild animals is virtually non-existent.
https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26943--,00.html (https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26943--,00.html)
The quote is from the last sentence in the link.
Quoting from the same document:
"In order to control leptospirosis in humans, swimming in stock ponds or slow-moving streams frequented by domestic and wild animals should be avoided. If a worker is in a high-risk occupation, protective gloves and boots should be worn."
"Human cases are more common in summer and early autumn... and in individuals that, either by choice or occupation, have frequent contact with infected animals or contaminated environments."
Also there's not a single reference to elk in this article.
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2014, 07:56:11 PM
6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.With all due respect, if Phil Anderson accepted as fact everything he heard from across the tables he was at, I wouldn't have much respect for him.
Post by: jongosch on May 27, 2014, 08:07:34 PM
6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.With all due respect, if Phil Anderson accepted as fact everything he heard from across the tables he was at, I wouldn't have much respect for him.
Zing! :chuckle: I'd have to agree with you on that, Bob.
Post by: JLS on May 27, 2014, 08:22:59 PM
Did you read the link jongosch provided!
1.Leptospirosis is contagious to humans and can be contracted by as little as touching the skin or hide of an infected animal.
2.If left undiagnosed and untreated, leptospirosis and its complications often prove fatal to humans.
Leptospirosis is considered the world’s most common zoonosis, meaning it is a communicable disease passed between animals and man. In Linda Andersson’s study in the Andaman Islands, she documented that out of a population of less than 400,000, more than 50 people per year had died as a result of leptospirosis. On the surface this may not seem like an extraordinarily high percentage, but for somebody with frequent exposure to infected animals such as a hunter, a butcher or a veterinarian, the odds rise significantly. Andersson’s statistics also show that the cases of leptospirosis and related deaths initially grew over the course of her study because as the disease became better understood, it was discovered that more people had it.
Leptospirosis is also an elusive and routinely misdiagnosed disease that can’t be seen under a regular microscope and is often mistaken for other diseases like aseptic meningitis, hepatitis, influenza, pneumonia, brucellosis and food poisoning. The most common symptoms of leptospirosis include fever, chills, headache, nausea, vomiting and, of course, muscular pain. As Dr. Mora wrote in his 1978 dissertation devoted entirely to leptospirosis, “Of 318 cases in which initial impressions were recorded, only 17 percent were suspected of having leptospirosis.”
According to Dr. Mora, “Epidemics of leptospirosis in man and animals have occurred from Alaska to the tropics and all points between,” and they often wreak havoc for years or even decades before they are understood. In the 1940s, outbreaks of a fever at Fort Bragg, North Carolina remained undiagnosed as leptospirosis for eight years. In the Andaman Islands, it took fifteen years for Andaman hemorrhagic fever to be identified as leptospirosis. Just this past week, Dr. Katie Stephens, a veterinarian with the Cowlitz Animal Clinic in Longview, WA alerted pet owners that there had been five cases of suspected leptospirosis at the clinic in the past two weeks. According to Dr. Stephens, two of the dogs died acutely and one of the dogs was confirmed to have Leptospira autumnalis by the Washington State Animal Disease and Diagnostic Lab.
I sure did.
Quote
The significance of leptospirosis in wildlife species that appear to be susceptible to Leptospira infections (white-tailed deer, raccoon, striped skunk, red fox, gray fox, opossums, rats and mice) is that they serve as reservoir hosts only. Even this status is not clear because very few leptospirosis outbreaks in humans and domestic animals have implicated wildlife species other than rodents (rats and mice). In Michigan, we are concerned primarily with the likelihood of transmission from white-tailed deer to cattle and humans. Investigations have revealed lower prevalences of leptospiral antibodies in deer than cattle; much lower rates of organism isolation from deer than cattle; very few deer with clinical disease; and differences in the frequencies of similar serovars between deer and cattle. While these results indicate that white-tailed deer are exposed to Leptospira organisms, the deer play an insignificant role in the transmission of bovine leptospirosis.
Post by: t6 on May 27, 2014, 08:38:18 PM
Why is it still not considered by WDFW?
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2014, 08:46:10 PM
Thanks for not taking it personally. It wasn't meant to be. I'm sure he's heard conflicting opinions on this matter. :tup:6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.With all due respect, if Phil Anderson accepted as fact everything he heard from across the tables he was at, I wouldn't have much respect for him.
Zing! :chuckle: I'd have to agree with you on that, Bob.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 27, 2014, 09:44:55 PM
I think you've got a handful of internet doctors and biologists misinterpreting and oversimplifying this issue. I will wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with...you armchair biologists keep posting your theories to these forums...its obviously helping solve the problem :rolleyes:
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2014, 10:05:06 PM
Post by: JLS on May 27, 2014, 10:34:10 PM
While I have been vocal in questioning the focus on leptospirosis and herbicides, I challenge anyone to show me where I have supported the use of herbicides. I haven't. I have voiced my opinion that they are in no way good for grouse, deer, or elk.
I don't support lies, and I also don't support science that isn't objective.
I'm not sure why some folks take it so personally when you disagree with them. That's the heart of science. Anyone who has defended a thesis or dissertation knows that it isn't always fun. I don't know a single soul referenced here, or anyone on the technical working group. I would hope that all of them embrace the tough questions that come up, because without them their research would not have much validity.
Post by: elk247 on May 28, 2014, 01:23:00 AM
Anybody who doesn't drink the kool-aid is obviously a weyco employee :rolleyes: Complete loss of credibility when you resort to personal attacks. If this is how you behave around WDFW I can also understand if they just cast you aside as irrelevant and remain focused on their working group members opinions.Simply waiting on the wdfw to tell us whats safe to eat and feed our families without scientific proof is ignorant if not outright gross negligence. Knowing that this disease is communicable at the very, very least among elk and likely long before any outward symptoms are noticed might make some of us disinterested in waiting to hear more of the same "don't worry, it's fine" propaganda. I'm by no means an armchair biologist but I couldn't care less about the working groups 'opinions' . We need facts. If it wasn't for many of the people posting on this thread contacting the media, elected officials and putting a spotlight on this topic I feel that this outbreak would not have near the attention that it's receiving currently. I feel we need more media attention, more resources, more transparency and more urgency. Kudos to all the forum members and non members that have put so much effort into this issue. We may all have different theories as to the cause but we all have the same common goal. Best of luck to the working group, we're all hoping that you guys and gals find a resolution to the demise of the most majestic animal in the mountains.
I think you've got a handful of internet doctors and biologists misinterpreting and oversimplifying this issue. I will wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with...you armchair biologists keep posting your theories to these forums...its obviously helping solve the problem :rolleyes:
Post by: bbarnes on May 28, 2014, 08:34:02 AM
Post by: snowpack on May 28, 2014, 09:04:27 AM
Many of us also question why WDFW has been relying so heavily on timber funded research, especially from the National Council for Air and Stream Improvement (NCASI).Reminds me of a few years ago with the pesticide/bee testing. The chemical companies were under pressure by the EPA via the beekeepers to test neonicotinoids and the affects on pollinators. Their test involved an untreated field that was about 2,000 acres and then they put a 2 acre test plot that had seed coated with neonicotinoid near the test hives. The bees had only small amounts of build up and fared okay. The chem corp and EPA were like, "looks good!" and "Safe for bees!" If they really wanted to test, they would've treated all 2,000 acres since that is how the product is actually being used.
According to their official website, "NCASI was established in 1943 by a consortium of pulp and paper companies" and "NCASI is funded largely by voluntary contributions made by its member companies — primarily forest products companies and industrial timberland owners in North America."
NCASI's "expert" Toxicologist claimed during the last Working Group meeting that, “We’ve done research on the synergistic effects of herbicides… We didn’t find any.” As many have said, it's hard to find something when you're not really looking for it. Here's what I found on the subject:
In 2011, researchers from the University of Siena stated that, “Because coformulants (also known as adjuvants) represent the highest amount in pesticide mixtures, even a minor toxicological concern could become significant in relation to their use especially considering the fact that, besides being toxic themselves, they can also increase the toxic effects of Active Ingredients”
Of course timber funded scientists will claim herbicides are safe for the environment. It's what they're paid to "research" and "discover." Same old song and dance as it was with leaded gasoline, cigarettes, DDT, asbestos, and innumerable pharmaceuticals that were determined by scientists to be "safe."
We also question why WDFW invited representatives from NCASI on their pre-meeting field trip but would not allow reps from the Washington Forest Law Center to attend. That is not transparency. That is not good faith. That does not inspire public trust.
A rapidly growing coalition of hunters, conservationists and ordinary taxpaying citizens will continue to be unpersuaded by any research that is funded by the timber companies and we will not be satisfied until an independent third party research team is granted permission to study on live elk.
Post by: jongosch on May 28, 2014, 11:58:42 AM
http://jongosch.com/citizens-express-profound-distrust-of-fish-and-wildlife-officials-herbicide-spraying-and-safety-of-elk-meat/ (http://jongosch.com/citizens-express-profound-distrust-of-fish-and-wildlife-officials-herbicide-spraying-and-safety-of-elk-meat/)
Post by: t6 on May 29, 2014, 11:21:08 PM
I will just do it within the rules set forth here.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 30, 2014, 12:27:45 AM
If you electronically search the most recent Big Game Hunting Pamphlet (effective April 1, 2014 - March 31, 2015) for the word leptospirosis you will find that it is entirely absent from this document. If you flip to page 60 dedicated to elk hoof disease, you can read the following statement: "There is no reason to believe that elk hoof disease is contagious to humans.":chuckle: My conclusion is your fiction writing is very good and you should stick with that. When I see interpretations from a "free lance journalist" apparently differing from a large group of experts including wildlife professionals and independent veterinarians it makes me think. :dunno:
It's important to remember that leptospirosis is considered the world’s most common zoonosis, meaning it is a communicable disease passed between animals and man. In Linda Andersson’s study in the Andaman Islands, she documented that more than 50 people per year had died as a result of leptospirosis. Hunters are among the most susceptible.
Now consider the following:
1) “We have detected Leptospira in the kidneys of four [elk]" said Dr. Tom Besser, a Professor at Washington State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and a member of WDFW’s technical advisory group. This was on Feb. 12, 2014.
2) Serology tests suggest WDFW/WSU only tested on 16 elk, and only 6 of the more than 200 serovars, meaning that lepstospirosis is likely much more prevalent in the herds than their limited tests indicate.
3) In 1996, Dr. Louis C. Bender, an employee of WDFW at the time, published a paper in the Journal of Wildlife Diseases entitled Leptospira interrogans Exposure in Free-ranging Elk in Washington. That can be easily found on google.
4) Dr. Bender’s field research showed that 14 of 17 sampled elk had been infected by Leptospira bacteria. According to Dr. Bender, “The high seroprevalence is evidence that exposure is widespread in the herd.”
5) Dr. Mora has been warning WDFW about leptospirosis for more than a year. Again, he is a Parasitology expert and a former County Health Director. His dissertation was written entirely about leptospirosis. He has asked for no money, only permission to help. So far he has not been allowed to do so.
6) Director Phil Anderson is well aware of the threat leptospirosis poses and the reason I know that is because I was sitting across a table from him in Olympia and told it to him from my own mouth. There were five reputable witnesses to this including the Governor's Policy Adviser J.T. Austin.
Now go back to the hunting pamphlet. Electronically search for the word gloves. You will not find it. Nor will you find the words blood, urine or fluids through which the bacteria are most commonly contracted by humans. You also will not find any warning that hunters should take extra precautions when harvesting elk even though they are capable of infecting hunters with a fatal disease, and even though WDFW knows and has acknowledged that leptospirosis is present in the herd.
WDFW did however find the room for a 9 paragraph article written by Wildlife Program Assistant Director Nate Pamplin entitled, "Hunting camp photos keep memories alive." In closing, Pamplin wishes us all, "Good hunting."
Someone who should be especially active on the subject of leptospirosis is Wayne Clifford, Manager of Pesticide Illness and Zoonotics Disease Surveillance and Prevention with the Department of Health. He is also a member of the Elk Hoof Disease Public Working Group.
Some food for thought, fellas. Pure facts. You can come to your own conclusions...
http://jongosch.com/infected-elk-may-pose-serious-health-risk-to-humans/ (http://jongosch.com/infected-elk-may-pose-serious-health-risk-to-humans/)
I find your musings on the 9 paragraph note frow wdfw on hunting memories a tad silly. You think wildlife management is so simple that when a new challenge pops up that everything else comes to a grinding halt? I thought Pamplin's article was actually very tasteful for the hunting regulations...I don't understand anyone's desire to attack wdfw and their staff for something like that...beyond petty.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 30, 2014, 05:39:56 AM
Post by: ELKBURGER on May 30, 2014, 06:08:51 AM
Anybody who doesn't drink the kool-aid is obviously a weyco employee :rolleyes: Complete loss of credibility when you resort to personal attacks. If this is how you behave around WDFW I can also understand if they just cast you aside as irrelevant and remain focused on their working group members opinions.I believe that these "armchair biologists" and their theories is what has brought the lack of progress into the publics eyes. The state has had this issue on the back burner for 5 years. Many of us dont want to "wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with". They would prefer to keep this issue quiet and avoid stirring up the hornets nest with the timber companies.
I think you've got a handful of internet doctors and biologists misinterpreting and oversimplifying this issue. I will wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with...you armchair biologists keep posting your theories to these forums...its obviously helping solve the problem :rolleyes:
While these 'armchair biologists' may not be professionals, I applaud thier involvement and out of the box thinking. They are the reason the state is getting off thier butts, not the beloved working group. The concerned community is keeping the ball in play here, not WDFW. WFDW is going into damage control to try and protect thier image.
Thank you to all that have gotten involved and not been afraid to voice your concerns and ideas!
Post by: idahohuntr on May 30, 2014, 09:55:46 AM
Idahohuntr seems to be an adamant supporter of the WDFW in all of their efforts, whether it be the outrageous wolf plan or their progress on the elk hoof disease issue. I wonder if he actually devotes any time to working on these issues or if he just likes to troll threads on the internet. I pick B.Pianoman seems to try and present complex natural resource management issues as something simple with one right or obvious answer. I wonder when he does this with very complex issues if he is a) lying or b) ignorant. I think it is a probably a combination of a and b to be honest.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 30, 2014, 10:06:12 AM
Anybody who doesn't drink the kool-aid is obviously a weyco employee :rolleyes: Complete loss of credibility when you resort to personal attacks. If this is how you behave around WDFW I can also understand if they just cast you aside as irrelevant and remain focused on their working group members opinions.I believe that these "armchair biologists" and their theories is what has brought the lack of progress into the publics eyes. The state has had this issue on the back burner for 5 years. Many of us dont want to "wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with". They would prefer to keep this issue quiet and avoid stirring up the hornets nest with the timber companies.
I think you've got a handful of internet doctors and biologists misinterpreting and oversimplifying this issue. I will wait to hear what the working group professionals come up with...you armchair biologists keep posting your theories to these forums...its obviously helping solve the problem :rolleyes:
While these 'armchair biologists' may not be professionals, I applaud thier involvement and out of the box thinking. They are the reason the state is getting off thier butts, not the beloved working group. The concerned community is keeping the ball in play here, not WDFW. WFDW is going into damage control to try and protect thier image.
Thank you to all that have gotten involved and not been afraid to voice your concerns and ideas!
We should never expect straight information from our government. We need to push hard for it.
Post by: bbarnes on May 30, 2014, 09:47:23 PM
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR
Post by: idahohuntr on May 30, 2014, 11:05:54 PM
Signature:Yes, I've had this signature for a long time and it is extraordinarily fitting for all of the WDFW bashing recently.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR
The credit does indeed belong to the men and women in the arena of F&W management. They comprise the hoof disease working group and the wdfw staff made up of dedicated professionals who have devoted careers to public service. While these dedicated professionals work hard to solve complex natural resource problems they are constantly criticized by outsiders pushing agendas and making claims of silver bullet fixes and while these critics shoulder no responsibility and rarely provide any real service to the public it is important to keep in mind that it is indeed not those critics who count. To all of the Hoof Disease working group members and WDFW staff whose face may be marred by dust and sweat in this public arena of fish and wildlife management...I am one sportsman who sincerely appreciates your efforts :tup:
Post by: elk247 on May 31, 2014, 07:30:50 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 31, 2014, 07:59:18 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on May 31, 2014, 08:09:37 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 31, 2014, 08:11:54 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 31, 2014, 09:05:23 AM
Bighorn sheep, some of the finest herds in the world, are dying from pneumonia.
Sea ducks are in decline.
Deer suffer from hair-loss.
Habitat is being lost as an alarming rate.
Lest some have forgotten, the “F” in WDFW stands for “Fish”. In addition to animals, the department is also responsible for fish species in the state, both commercial and recreational.
Where’s the outrage over what the department allegedly isn’t doing for all these issues?
There’s far more on the department’s plate than anyone here gives them credit for. Is it ignorance, or simply that they’re not playing by your rules and priorities?
Post by: bobcat on May 31, 2014, 09:17:23 AM
I guess what we need is a Department of Game, AND a Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Post by: ELKBURGER on May 31, 2014, 09:35:32 AM
Im not gonna give them a pass on this one......
Post by: idahohuntr on May 31, 2014, 09:47:59 AM
I think hes trying a new angle on getting some OIL tags! :chuckle:Duh...I don't want to hear any complaining after I draw...you all had your chance to be nice :chuckle:
And no, I'm not a wdfw employee...I have absolutely no connection to the agency other than being a volunteer on the GMAC.
Seriously though, what gets me more than anything is this:
WDFW staff are public servants who devote their careers to serving sportsmen. People who get these jobs are not out to do harm or undermine the public and that is what a lot of these posts seem to insinuate or directly claim. We can all monday morning quarterback whether they should have collected more samples or done this and that, and I think its appropriate to voice concern if we think they are missing something...where the line needs to be drawn though is when sportsmen start attacking WDFW as though they want to inflict harm or don't care about wildlife or the people who enjoy wildlife. WDFW is our biggest ally in protecting and perpetuating hunting and fishing opportunity in Washington State...lets not find ways to alienate them and create unnecessary rifts.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 31, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
Post by: ELKBURGER on May 31, 2014, 10:09:47 AM
I agree the WDFW should be our biggest ally. My biggest concern is the management of resources. The dedication of the public servants is not in question. If an issue as big as hoof disease comes up, you need to appropriate funds and personnel in a timely manner to deal with it. Waiting years to confront the issue is mismanagement in my book. Hind sight is 20/20 and Im sure the did not predict the disease to spread or the public backlash. They are hitting the issue hard now and thats what the elk deserve.I think hes trying a new angle on getting some OIL tags! :chuckle:Duh...I don't want to hear any complaining after I draw...you all had your chance to be nice :chuckle:
And no, I'm not a wdfw employee...I have absolutely no connection to the agency other than being a volunteer on the GMAC.
Seriously though, what gets me more than anything is this:
WDFW staff are public servants who devote their careers to serving sportsmen. People who get these jobs are not out to do harm or undermine the public and that is what a lot of these posts seem to insinuate or directly claim. We can all monday morning quarterback whether they should have collected more samples or done this and that, and I think its appropriate to voice concern if we think they are missing something...where the line needs to be drawn though is when sportsmen start attacking WDFW as though they want to inflict harm or don't care about wildlife or the people who enjoy wildlife. WDFW is our biggest ally in protecting and perpetuating hunting and fishing opportunity in Washington State...lets not find ways to alienate them and create unnecessary rifts.
Post by: Bob33 on May 31, 2014, 10:09:53 AM
Bob, I get that you think the WDFW is doing all it can for hunters and wildlife. Your post calling me shameful for my accusations about their lack of movement on hoof disease was quite clear, although misplaced (my remarks were aimed at the WDFW, not the working group as you charged). I simply disagree with you and think much more can be done and should have been done by now on the hoof disease issue. I think there are areas they do very well, like the LE and bios in the field, for whom I have the greatest respect and by whom I have always been treated kindly and professionally. But, there are areas where they're severely lacking and a disease affecting the state's largest elk herd should be a top concern right now, one that eclipses many of the items you listed in your last post. If we lose our elk, we're in big trouble. Not only is elk hunting a huge part of our state's economy and a substantial investment for hunters, but they're are a big attraction for many non-hunting citizens of our state and tourists who visit us. Not to mention that losing them is tragic. I'm very concerned about the future of hunting in our state, and more immediately, for our elk herds. You can call me ignorant or claim that I only call them out for not playing by my rules or priorities. But, that's not what's happening at all and I think you've known me long enough to realize it. But when it comes down to it, I don't really care about your opinion of me.
Just so we are clear I have never said that WDFW is doing everything it can for wildlife.
You have apparently taken this post as being personally directed at you which it was not, but feel free to believe that.
Post by: t6 on June 01, 2014, 12:52:28 AM
The reality is that we can only do what we are allowed to do by upper management who many times become more politicans than public servants. As a result many of us want to finish our careers, save the ones we can, and collect our retirement.
Dont think its a noble cause in everyone's case, or for their entire career.
Post by: ELKBURGER on June 01, 2014, 10:03:44 AM
You can think that the Government Employees have dedicated their Careers or Life towards public service if you want to. As a Government Employee, I can assure you that many of us began our careers believing that we could save the world and that was our job.t6, thanks for the honesty. I'm sure it is very frustrating to be held back from doing whats right.
The reality is that we can only do what we are allowed to do by upper management who many times become more politicans than public servants. As a result many of us want to finish our careers, save the ones we can, and collect our retirement.
Dont think its a noble cause in everyone's case, or for their entire career.