Elk Hoof Disease Public Meeting - Wed, May 21st 1-4PM - Please Attend!!

[bobcat]

Herbicide use on forest lands is evil! Anything to put pressure on timber companies and governmental agencies to take a hard look at what they're doing on such a large scale with no clue as to what harm they may be doing to the environment and wildlife. 

[JLS]

Herbicide use on forest lands is evil. Anything to put pressure on timber companies and governmental agencies to take a hard look at what they're doing on such a large scale with no clue as to what harm they may be doing to the environment and wildlife. 

Herbicides can be detrimental in a lot more areas than just forest lands.

When I hunt pheasants, I can always tell the farmers who are "liberal" in their spraying.  Their field eyebrows are a monoculture of grass and nothing else.  I drive right by those and find the guy who only sprays his fields and leaves a variety of broadleaf forbes and weeds for cover.

[Curly]

I think Weyco's cooperation is somewhat needed; they need to disclose exactly what chemicals......what doses, and what frequency they are spraying.  Although, I'm sure they would just lie about it if they aren't meeting what is required by law as far as spraying goes, but hopefully they provide full disclosure.

[Practical Approach]

I think Weyco's cooperation is somewhat needed; they need to disclose exactly what chemicals......what doses, and what frequency they are spraying.  Although, I'm sure they would just lie about it if they aren't meeting what is required by law as far as spraying goes, but hopefully they provide full disclosure.

Weyco has stated that they are required by DNR and Department of Ag. to disclose exactly what chemicals, doses, gallons per acre, frequency etc they are applying.  They pay a permit fee to apply for the application license for each treatment and the records should be available for review if you request them from the regulating agencies.

Don't shoot the messenger, just reporting what I heard directly from Weyco.

[pianoman9701]

JLS, I believe the scientists from the DFW have been directed to look at certain areas and not at others. In 6 years of study since the large outbreak in 2008, there's been not a single toxicology done to detect present agricultural chemicals. How is that possible? I believe that until recently and only because of increased pressure from citizens and elected officials, that they've ignored very compelling evidence presented by Dr. Boone Mora, an established CDC expert in the area of leptospirosis because it would point to the herbicides as the reason the animals became susceptible to the disease. They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.

Let's say for a moment that herbicides are not to blame. I don't believe it for a second, but let's say it. Even in the absence of evidence that herbicides are to blame for hoof disease, do you think it's wise for all of the new growth to be completely killed in clearcuts? Not only is the disease killing our elk, but the growth that a healthy herd depends on is being killed. It's ridiculous.

Practical, I don't find the working group at fault.

The spraying records are being examined.

[JLS]

JLS, I believe the scientists from the DFW have been directed to look at certain areas and not at others. In 6 years of study since the large outbreak in 2008, there's been not a single toxicology done to detect present agricultural chemicals. How is that possible? I believe that until recently and only because of increased pressure from citizens and elected officials, that they've ignored very compelling evidence presented by Dr. Boone Mora, an established CDC expert in the area of leptospirosis because it would point to the herbicides as the reason the animals became susceptible to the disease. They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.

Let's say for a moment that herbicides are not to blame. I don't believe it for a second, but let's say it. Even in the absence of evidence that herbicides are to blame for hoof disease, do you think it's wise for all of the new growth to be completely killed in clearcuts? Not only is the disease killing our elk, but the growth that a healthy herd depends on is being killed. It's ridiculous.

Practical, I don't find the working group at fault.

The spraying records are being examined.

I've stated numerous times that I don't believe widespread herbicide use is good for wildife.  Anyone that would deny this is foolish.  Read my above post.

At this point, you are so convinced that it is herbicides causing the hoof disease that you are looking for things to confirm your beliefs.  How is this not being single minded?  You have your conspiracy theories and biases, and don't seem to be very objective about this.  Granted, you have a very personal interest in this issue as you live in the area.  I don't. 

Reference the failure to test for the presence of agricultural chemicals.  I think it's quite obvious that they would be present in trace amounts.  Maybe it's present in toxic amounts.  However, as I stated earlier, given that there are three veterinarians from WSU in the last study I think that if it were simply chemical induced delamination they would have been all over it.

I'm merely looking at it from an outside standpoint.  I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, I'm trying to be objective.  If you go into a controlled experiment merely trying to prove your hypothesis you are doomed to fail.

[Bob33]

They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.

The working group has representatives from RMEF, Safari Club, DNR, local tribes, county commissioners, Department of Health, WSU, USFS, WDFW, and Weyerhaeuser.

With no evidence to support it, you have implied that all of these members would compromise their personal integrity in their efforts to address this problem by ignoring potential causes. This is allegedly done in order to avoid the possibility of timber companies contacting elected officials. I find that implication to be shameful. To believe that RMEF, Safari Club, independent veterinarians, tribes, and others would participate in a cover up which harms elk is simply and literally incredible.

Brian Anderson, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Dr. Tom Besser, Washington State University
Dave Carlson, Safari Club International, WA State Chapters
Carol Chandler, U.S. Forest Service
Wayne Clifford, Washington Department of Health
Mick Cope, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel Cothren, Wahkiakum County Commissioner
Curt Gavigan, Senate Natural Resources
Bob Johnson, Department of Natural Resources
Dr. Sandra Jonker, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Chris Madsen, NW Indian Fisheries Commission
Dr. Kristin Mansfield, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
James Misner, Cowlitz County Commissioner
Barbara Moeller, Puyallup Tribe
Dr. Jerry Nelson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Mike Rochelle, Weyerhaeuser Company
Bob Schlecht, SW Land Access Coalition
Mark Smith, Local Resident/Business Owner
Axel Swanson, Clark County Senior Policy Lead
Dr. Ron Wohrle, Washington Department of Health

[pianoman9701]

They don't want that because timber pays everyone and if they were to say it, timber would put pressure on the elected officials who have power over them.

The working group has representatives from RMEF, Safari Club, DNR, local tribes, county commissioners, Department of Health, WSU, USFS, WDFW, and Weyerhaeuser.

With no evidence to support it, you have implied that all of these members would compromise their personal integrity in their efforts to address this problem by ignoring potential causes. This is allegedly done in order to avoid the possibility of timber companies contacting elected officials. I find that implication to be shameful. To believe that RMEF, Safari Club, independent veterinarians, tribes, and others would participate in a cover up which harms elk is simply and literally incredible.

Brian Anderson, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Dr. Tom Besser, Washington State University
Dave Carlson, Safari Club International, WA State Chapters
Carol Chandler, U.S. Forest Service
Wayne Clifford, Washington Department of Health
Mick Cope, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Daniel Cothren, Wahkiakum County Commissioner
Curt Gavigan, Senate Natural Resources
Bob Johnson, Department of Natural Resources
Dr. Sandra Jonker, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Chris Madsen, NW Indian Fisheries Commission
Dr. Kristin Mansfield, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
James Misner, Cowlitz County Commissioner
Barbara Moeller, Puyallup Tribe
Dr. Jerry Nelson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Mike Rochelle, Weyerhaeuser Company
Bob Schlecht, SW Land Access Coalition
Mark Smith, Local Resident/Business Owner
Axel Swanson, Clark County Senior Policy Lead
Dr. Ron Wohrle, Washington Department of Health

I've said before that I don't blame the working group. I blame the administration of the WDFW. Read my posts, Bob.

[t6]

There are members of the working group who appear to have only one agenda....the health of the elk.  I believe that this is also the agenda for Jon Gosch, Boon Mora, Bruce Barnes, and now Crystal Davies. 

If their position seems one sided, I believe you have a misperception.  They are willing to accept that there are or potentially more than one thing at work here that is causing the illness the elk are plagued with. 

The failure of WDFW to even accept the idea that herbicides could in any way be involved is not only blind but to many offensive. 

This group is simply asking for an opportunity to be heard or considered fairly.   

When it comes to the spraying of herbicides we are constantly reminded that its done properly by licensed applicators.  When questions are asked about who oversees the process and ensures this is happening properly, we are told again that the applicators are licensed and have to file paperwork to ensure they did it correctly.    Was the helicopter pilot in Oregon licensed?  Didn't he file paperwork assuring us that it was done properly?   The answer to both is yes.  The reality is that the herbicides sprayed were not done properly and the paperwork filed was later confirmed to be a lie.   

There is no oversight.  Its done on the honor system.  If I were to ask you for $10,000 and told you to trust me... Wouldn't you want a receipt? 

[pianoman9701]

I agree that there are many members of the working group who are truly in it to help the elk. Many of them Bob listed. I think that the DFW administration is hampering a true scientific examination of this disease and the working group is subject to whatever bull or roadblocks the administration puts in there.

My only care here is for the elk, as well. I'm passionate (and yes, JLS, dramatic) about it because people need to get their butts in gear and get involved. I don't care who you are or where you live. If you love elk and are not in this fight, then get in it. If you're not going to do that, then you have no place at all telling me that I'm being unreasonable or shameful. If you haven't been to the meetings, then you have no idea of the crap that's being laid out to the public. This is serious business and I believe that it'll come out that facts and evidence were at the very least avoided, if not purposely covered-up.

[JLS]

I agree that there are many members of the working group who are truly in it to help the elk. Many of them Bob listed. I think that the DFW administration is hampering a true scientific examination of this disease and the working group is subject to whatever bull or roadblocks the administration puts in there.

According to the last meeting minutes, Dr. Mora was invited to submit his proposed experiment to the technical advisory members.  Has he done so?  What about Dr. Bessers rebuttal that they have tested for leptospirosis?  Are you suggesting that Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks?

[grundy53]

I have no knowledge of the St Helens herd but what I have observed in the area I hunt (willapa hills) is that most of the elk I see with hoof rot are field elk. The elk that rarely if ever visit the fields (spend most of the time on Weyerhaeuser property) don't have hoof rot. I'm not in anyway trying to hypothesize the cause  one way or the other. I just find it weird that the elk most exposed to the spraying are the elk that aren't suffering from hoof rot, at least in my area. I am definitely all for more in-depth  research. I hope they can fix this.

sent from my typewriter

[pianoman9701]

I agree that there are many members of the working group who are truly in it to help the elk. Many of them Bob listed. I think that the DFW administration is hampering a true scientific examination of this disease and the working group is subject to whatever bull or roadblocks the administration puts in there.

According to the last meeting minutes, Dr. Mora was invited to submit his proposed experiment to the technical advisory members.  Has he done so?  What about Dr. Bessers rebuttal that they have tested for leptospirosis?  Are you suggesting that Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks?

No I'm not suggesting Dr. Besser is putting up roadblocks. The last word I got on Dr. Mora was yesterday from Sandra Jonker that he's been invited to a meeting in June. When I wrote to Dr. Jonker and Nate Pamplin over two weeks ago to inquire if they'd taken him up on his offer, I received no response from either. I believe that Dr. Mora has done everything that's been requested of him by the WDFW.

[t6]

Grundy.... the elk in the Willapa don't live exclusively in the fields however, many have taken up residency there because of their hoof rot.  Food and water are available but cover isn't.  This was also covered in the meeting.  Farmers complain to WDFW about the elk in the fields and the damage they cause as a result, permits continue to be issued for those areas.  The problem is that much of the property is posted and elk are rarely taken from the fields unless you know someone.  The elk that are pressured return to the hills. 

Many of the tags are filled from the hills if the hunters can find elk there at all any more.  If you followed the link to Koin 6 you saw that the Commissioner himself is a hunter and sees a dramatic decrease in the elk populations there.   

[grundy53]

Grundy.... the elk in the Willapa don't live exclusively in the fields however, many have taken up residency there because of their hoof rot.  Food and water are available but cover isn't.  This was also covered in the meeting.  Farmers complain to WDFW about the elk in the fields and the damage they cause as a result, permits continue to be issued for those areas.  The problem is that much of the property is posted and elk are rarely taken from the fields unless you know someone.  The elk that are pressured return to the hills. 

Many of the tags are filled from the hills if the hunters can find elk there at all any more.  If you followed the link to Koin 6 you saw that the Commissioner himself is a hunter and sees a dramatic decrease in the elk populations there.

I understand they don't live in the fields. When I say "field elk" I'm talking about the elk that do the majority of their feeding in the fields. I wouldn't say there are anymore elk in the fields now then there were before.