Elk Hoof Disease Public Meeting - Wed, May 21st 1-4PM - Please Attend!!

[pianoman9701]

Off to the gym and back tomorrow. Good night all.

[northwesthunter84]

So I have read this topic and a few others like it.  I have a question, is there any one of these independent scientists that would like the hooves/tissue samples off an elk for independent study.  I am just thinking out loud.  I have not seen an animal with hoof rot but if I were to harvest one, would anyone want to take the hooves/tissue for testing.  I know that there would have to be some scientific process for collecting the samples.  I am not completely oblivious to some of the processes to prevent cross contamination of the samples and the potential argument points for having hunters collect these sample but every little piece of the puzzle helps.   

[t6]

Im sure they would like the hoof tissue as well as other internal organs.  They just need to get the approval to do the testing. 

There was another issue brought up that may make it illegal for hunters to remove the hooves.  There is a new law proposed by WDFW that would require hunters to leave the hooves at the kill site.  They even talked about having check points staffed to ensure the hooves were not removed. 

If they are bagged and used for research, why restrict their removal?   Would it limit independent research?

[northwesthunter84]

Yeah I noticed that request in the hunting regs, also included removing mud from tire and shoes.

[JLS]

If it turns out to be an infectious disease, removing the hooves would/could promote the spread of the disease to other geographical areas.  Think CWD. 

[northwesthunter84]

I'm a Midwest transplant so I understand CWD.  I have first hand seen the crisis mode that those states went into.  I am really surprised by the seemingly lackadaisical approach so far by the DFW.  We had a huge outbreak of blue tongue in Illinois and even though that is not a communicable disease it was still taken very seriously.  If properly controlled, samples turned directly over to researcher would not be an issue and I think that would be helpful to get an independent verification.

[blackdog]

I am still hoping that Bruce Barnes will clarify his comments about the archery hunting of elk.

[pianoman9701]

I've been speaking with Bruce and specifically about his comments. He feels that there should be less or no over-the-counter any elk tags in areas of declining elk population, especially an area where an outbreak of disease has done untold damage to the herd. As an archery hunter, I hate to see tags go away. As an elk lover, I have to agree that if the population is in trouble and that's confirmed through scientific analysis, the distribution and qualification of the tags should be examined carefully before business as usual goes on.

[pianoman9701]

If it turns out to be an infectious disease, removing the hooves would/could promote the spread of the disease to other geographical areas.  Think CWD.

Walking in the woods, getting mud in your boots, and walking somewhere else could spread the disease.

[bobcat]

I'd have to agree with Bruce on that. If elk numbers are too low in certain gmu's then obviously the archery seasons should not allow the taking of cow elk. Deer is the same way. It's crazy how many units are either sex during the archery seasons, and deer populations are at all time lows. I don't understand why they continue to have either sex seasons. Same goes for muzzleloader. There aren't nearly as many either sex units for muzzleloader but there are a few. One of those is Lincoln and a very high number of does are taken every year during the late muzzleloader season. Why the WDFW continues to let hunters slaughter the females in areas where numbers have never been lower, I don't understand. Antlerless harvest in most units should be by permit only instead of general seasons where they have no control on how many are taken.

[jongosch]

This is all very interesting.  Can anyone shed any light on why herbicides are potentially having a larger impact on elk in Southwest Washington state than on other timberlands up and down the west coast?  Why aren't we seeing these problems in elk where the habitat is the same and timber management practices are the same?

This comment has a lot of merit and it's something I've thought about a great deal.  Here's an insightful message I got from Krystal Davies yesterday:

"I also noticed that Dr. Cook (from NCASI) said herbicides and pesticides are used in Oregon and other parts of Washington but no hoof disease there.  This is misleading because a) it's thinking correlation is causation or in this case not the cause and b) we don't know what herbicides and pesticides are being used there or how much.  We also have not studied their hooves to see if there are any signs of metabolic stress affecting their hooves as well.  Just because an elk isn't hobbling around doesn't mean there isn't an issue.  Some laminitis triggers are only harmful in large quantities (such as alfalfa in horses) and others are harmful with only a little amount (such as molasses for horses).  Some animals are affected heavily by some triggers and some animals appear to handle them better than others.  There are so many variables to a situation like this.  Ruling something out as a trigger before fully understanding it is the first step to failing to cure laminitis."

Also, at the end of this recent KOIN 6 video the newscaster says, "Oregon Fish and Wildlife tell us it's possible there have been a few cases here in Oregon."

Hoof rot continues to plague elk in Washington

[elk247]

I have no knowledge of the St Helens herd but what I have observed in the area I hunt (willapa hills) is that most of the elk I see with hoof rot are field elk. The elk that rarely if ever visit the fields (spend most of the time on Weyerhaeuser property) don't have hoof rot. I'm not in anyway trying to hypothesize the cause  one way or the other. I just find it weird that the elk most exposed to the spraying are the elk that aren't suffering from hoof rot, at least in my area. I am definitely all for more in-depth  research. I hope they can fix this.

sent from my typewriter

I have to wonder if your observations are a result of the disease instead of the cause? Crippled animals would likely choose flat ground and easy meals over steep hillsides. I also am not convinced that pesticides and herbicides are the root of this outbreak but I don't care for them either. IMO burning is the best forestry practice. To an unaware new hunter simply looking at harvest report numbers these elk units have good harvest percentages. The truth is three legged elk (so to speak) really tips the odds in favor of the hunter. Everyone is very passionate about elk and has different opinions on what could be the cause. Discussion is good, lets not attack industrial practices until we have sufficient proof. Any and all Ideas should be considered or at least heard. I think Dr. Mora is taking this investigation in the right direction.

[jongosch]

You really can't find the working group at fault.  The public working group meetings really don't allow for any constructive input.  The agenda is pre determined by WDFW.  If you noticed from yesterdays meeting that the working group sat there right along with the public and watched a slide show that laid out what WDFW was going to do.  Any questions or comments from the work group were almost view as an interruption.  If the work group were a true work group, they would be allowed to participate than give thumbs up or down to what the state is selling.

I agree with you Practical Approach.  The Working Group itself is not to blame.  I've attended their past two meetings in Vancouver and Kelso and there are some wonderful people on the group who obviously care a great deal about wildlife, hunters, the environment, etc.  Mark Smith, Dan Cothren, Axel Swanson and Bob Schlecht have stood out to me especially.  They show their passion.  They ask good questions.  They're critical when necessary. 

On the other hand, in a total of 6 hours the Weyerhaeuser rep, Michael J. Rochelle, has spoken exactly zero times.  As in total silence, no input, nothing.  And he's a Wildlife Biologist!!!  You think he'd be interested in this case, but during the last meeting I actually watched him nod off a couple times.  And keep in mind that this is happening almost entirely on Weyerhaeuser land.  If you put a map of Weyerhaeuser land in Washington over the top of the hoof disease observations map from the WDFW website they line up very nicely. 

Someone out there is screeching, "That proves nothing!" and you're right, it's not a smoking gun, but how many correlations do you need before that whole 'correlation doesn't prove causation' phrase start to wither away like a meadow sprayed with atrazine, 2,4-D and Roundup?

If you don't think these chemicals are detrimental to the health of humans as well, check out this video that was just released two weeks ago about a community in Oregon.  And if you still aren't convinced that herbicides are at play here then Ed Barnes has some water he'd like you to drink for an experiment he's conducting. 

A Poisoned Paradise

[t6]

I agree Jon, there are some on the working group that seem to take an obvious interest in to what's going on and those that seem to only take interest when they are taking a defensive posture.  Rochelle has seemingly taken no interest.  It's as though is participation is because he was told or paid to. 

I guess I have the most concern that WDFW refuses to accept or consider that there may be something more than their latest guess occurring here and heaven forbid the admit that the elk may not be safe for human contact or consumption. 

What would the ramifications be then?  What if they know its not safe and are not telling Sportsmen?  What could potentially happen then? 

[elkman54]

How wet is the ground in the areas where hoof rot is prevalent and pesticides/herbicides are used compared to areas where hoof rot is not prevalent and pesticides/herbicides are used?  How much rain fall do the infected areas receive compared to the uninfected areas? Soil types?
If the ground is continually wet and a herd of elk go through they create mud. If the ground is continually wet the chemicals stay closer to the surface in some areas, not all. Penetration will vary dependent on soil types.